What?! Heracross is a "disappointment" of D/P?

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Kabuto Mushi

Really? Heracross is a disappointment? Since when?

I'm referring to this article in the Smog...
http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue3/dp_disappointments

Heracross is not used very often in the current metagame, but I feel very strongly about that the fact that it is NOT a pokemon to be underestimated. To me it is something unique with strong bug and fighting stabs... AND it is certainly should not be mentioned in the same breath as Electivire! Personally, Scarf Cross is my favorite revenge killer, and band Cross is quite a potent wall breaker...

Why has the usage of Heracross suffered so much? The mention of Lucario in the article doens't make a lot of sense to me...

I'll admit to being something of a Heracross fanboy (ok, a big one) I don't see anyone else with Guts around here. :(
 
Lucario totally outclasses hera now. The only advantage heracross ever had in D/P was that it could ohko Cresselia with STAB Meagahorn, but now that Cress usage is down, so is hera.
 
I'm sorry that I insulted your favorite Pokemon by calling him a disappointment. But I feel that you're missing the point of the article. The article is not about what Pokemon really, really suck. It's titled the Top 6 Disappointments. Essentially this means I am comparing the hype for a Pokemon to how the Pokemon actually ended up impacting the game. So while Heracross may indeed be a potent wall breaker with strong bug and fighting STABs, it comes nowhere close to living up to the hype that surrounded it prior to the release of Diamond and Pearl.

I hope that settles the issue.

P.S. Heracross actually does suck
 
I think the current speed of the metagame really hurts Heracross tbh. Without priority and with a base 85 Speed, Heracross is having a difficult time being able to take on faster Salamence, Gengar, etc. If you choose to Choice Scarf Heracross, you are probably locking yourself into a Scarfed Fighting attack or a Bug Attack not named U-Turn. With so many resistances/immunities to these types and not being able to really KO anything that doesn't have the defense of a paper bag, Heracross is rarely going to be killing much without repeated hits.

Choice Band Heracross is going to at least kill more Pokemon (Skarmory is 2hkoed by Close Combat which is impressive) but you can't outspeed much anymore (if you go Jolly, you lose a lot of useful attack power).

Heracross is very close to being a legitimate threat but it is outclassed by other Pokemon (Scizor/Lucario), is very predictable, and is missing some key elements.
 
If you remember back to the Latios test and Stage 3 in general, Heracross found itself being much more useful than it's been in standard OU for a long time. If the Stage 3 voting brings Latios down to the tier, look forward to a rise in Scarf Heracross' popularity as it revenges Latios and Latias left and right while taking advantage of all the specially inclined Skarmory, Bronzong, etc running around.
 
Lucario was mentioned because it has higher speed, priority moves like Extremespeed, and a great movepool. Although five stat points away doesnt seem like a difference, it does when you consider how fast paced the metagame is.

However, another problem it has is being set up bait for the likes of Salamence, Gyarados and Lucario. Lucario can come in on a 4x resist Megahorn (although it does leave a fair dent), Swords Dance, then kill your team. Lucario is not set up bait because it has a priority move to nail Mons switching in when Luc is going to die of LO recoil.
 
Problem with Heracross is A)Lucario outclasses it as a fighting type, with the ability to outrun neutral base 100s, much more useful resistances, priority, etc. B)Scizor outclasses it as a fighting type, with higher base attack, powerful priority, more useful resistances(dragon is huge here), better defense, and most importantly, U-Turn, which is absent from Heracross's learnpool. C)Rotom-H is commonly used on shoddy battle and other battle simulators, who is a huge threat to Heracross with resistances to both STABs, and Overheat. There are just way too many issues with Heracross that can't even be mentioned due to length. I was never a fan of Heracross, which is why I don't see why he was hyped so much in the transition from advance to DP, and that lame excuse of 2HKOing Skarmory with a physical move can be said by way too many pokemon anyways.
 
uh heracross was widely used up until the point of platinum's release anyways. it's about as much of a disappointment as yanmega is. great poke used up until plat's release. that's all there is to it
 
Yeah, the fact that the top 3 of the most popular pokes can set up on him or revenge kill him (gayrados, salamence, and scizor)really hurts his usage and usefulness.
 
JabbaTheGriffin said:
I'm sorry that I insulted your favorite Pokemon by calling him a disappointment. But I feel that you're missing the point of the article. The article is not about what Pokemon really, really suck. It's titled the Top 6 Disappointments. Essentially this means I am comparing the hype for a Pokemon to how the Pokemon actually ended up impacting the game. So while Heracross may indeed be a potent wall breaker with strong bug and fighting STABs, it comes nowhere close to living up to the hype that surrounded it prior to the release of Diamond and Pearl.

I hope that settles the issue.

P.S. Heracross actually does suck
Click to expand...

Ah, so YOU wrote the article? Listen, I respect your opinion, and I apologize if I made it out to seem like it was an article about "which pokemon suck". It's not, and I actually agreed with every other pokemon on the list. I was just surprised to see Heracross there; a threat I (mistakenly I suppose) assumed was quite potent in the eyes of most competitive players in the current metagame.

Check out LR's post... that's kinda what I was talking about. I guess as most people here see it Heracross doesn't live up to the hype. On the shoddy server, I see Heracross show up once out of maybe 50 battles. However these things don't stop it from cracking skulls together like coconuts whenever it gets the chance. Hopefully at some point a bit later on (as the metagame continues to develop, Latis I'm looking at you) Hera will re-enter the limelime once again.
 
Heracross wasn't a disappointment, but he became one. Before, in DP, he was the "Bug of Choice". But now, he occupies a niche role. Lucario can do almost everything better: he can get in easier, set up easier, sweep easier, work better as a lure by running a special set, whatever. Heracross just has his Bug-type STAB to work with.

But if Garchomp comes to OU, Cresselia's usage will rise, meaning that Heracross' usage as a wallbreaker will also rise. And as LR said, the arrival of Latios will also help its cause.
 
FolgorioTehKickAss said:
Yeah, the fact that the top 3 of the most popular pokes can set up on him or revenge kill him (gayrados, salamence, and scizor)really hurts his usage and usefulness.
Click to expand...

I just had to mention / bold that... :naughty:

Anyways, regarding Heracross. It's basically in the same boat with Togekiss: Great movepool and power, but very mediocre speed that can't compete with today's Metagame competitors. However, there are 3 things with Togekiss that Heracross lacks of:
1) Much better defensively with a healing move: Roost
2) Availability of ParaFlinch or ParaFusionFlinch thanks to Thunder Wave, Sweet Kiss and Serene Grace-Air Slash with STAB.
3) Speed can be easily made up for with the paralysis of the opponent.

With Heracross, however, it is not as good defensively; it doesn't have the ability to do a such annoying combo of ParaFlinch, and the biggest killer of all, it is slow and remains slow.

ScarfCross was okay but now it's almost completely outclassed by Lucario and Scizor with reasons mentioned by others above this post. Rotom-A, especially the little Oven Heat Form, almost completely walls Heracross if it's Choiced due to the resistance of both STABs and excellent Defense and can always throw out Overheat. If you think about it, even a Pinsir with Mold Breaker Earthquake covers Rotom-H better than Heracross.

Back before Platinum was released, Heracross had STAB Megahorn to annihilate Cresselias and devastate Bronzongs quite a bit. Nowadays, Bronzong's usage dropped a lot and Cresselia is hanging in the low 30's or high 40's, with Scizor's Banded U-Turn, resistences and Technician Bullet Punch, there's almost no reason to use Heracross over Scizor.
 
Well, you have to understand that the article is reflecting back on pre-DP mindsets/perspective and comparing to how things actually turned out. Before the 4th generation release, Heracross was projected as a top 5 type pokemon for DP. One of the major drawbacks it had/has in Advance is its speed and the addition of Choice Scarf was supposed to solve all its problems and make it a true terror. And then of course you could Band it instead and play all those mind games.. Add on that Pursuit was now physical and how it worked with Choice items (plus a real fighting move not named Focus Punch for it to use) and people thought it would be a truly dominant offensive force to the extent that the current DPP Scizor is. So while Heracross is an excellent pokemon (it's especially beastly in doubles play I've found), it never quite dominated the game like we predicted it would.. especially now that priority moves are extremely common. So it's a disappointment only in the sense that it will never be a top 5 pokemon.
 
Probably because everyone plays it like Lucario, and that's why he's outclassed. I mean, out of the 10 last Heracross i saw, 9 were Choiced.
What's up with that?
No one uses creativity with Hera anymore(or no one uses creativity with any poke at all), and Hera isn't like Lucario(which is extremely effective with just one set).
I use a Sub Salac set that is really effective within my team(or one of my teams, i have like 50 teams lol). Heracross just need some work to make it a outstanding poke, while Lucario is just a prick by himself (pretty much like Dragonite X Salamence). That means outclassed by everyone. Not by me, though.

By the way, i suck with Salamence, but i'm effective with Dragonite. Haha, suits more my style .
 
Problems with Heracross

As a Choice Sweeper - Both of Heracross's STAB moves share common resistors (Poison, Ghost, and Flying types), meaning that it is incredibly easy to pick something to switch in and soak his STABs, forcing him out. And his non-stabbed complimentary options lack the power to really break walls. Something like Rotom, who can soak both of his STAB moves with ease and doesn't take double from Stone Edge (making it roughly the same power) can walk all over Heracross. Also, unlike other common Choice users, he lacks moves with utility, such as U-Turn, Priority, or STAB/Boosted Pursuit.

As a Set-up Sweeper - In a format where every common Set-up Sweeper either boosts its speed (Dragon Dancers) or Bypasses it (Priority users), Heracross has a hard time measuring up. Sure, he has a ton of Raw Power, but 85 Speed means that he won't be outspeeding much of anything on a non-Stall team, meaning he can't sweep through much. Even many stall teams will run something that outspeeds and can KO him.

As a bulky attacker (RestTalk, Bulk Up, some combination thereof): Close Combat is antithetical to a bulky attacker, limiting him to Megahorn or Brick Break for STAB. Brick Break lacks the requisite power, and Megahorn can't pair with a single other of his moves to create perfect (or even close to perfect) coverage.
 
On one of my teams (and its various iterations), I used ScarfCross extensively. However, a focus of the team was eliminating things that would stop a choice locked Heracross, which would attempt to rampage at the end of the game. It had a SubMagnezone to deal with various steels (primarily Skarmory and Forretress) and CBtar to stop Gengar, Latias, and the Rotom Forms. The problem with this is that it is very impossible that the opponent carried multiple Hera counters (often inadvertently. Hera is not hard to wall), which my set up Pokemon would eventually fall to . The main thing I can think of is CBtar getting WoW'd by Rotom, so while it may kill Rotom, the Pursuit is now too weak to effectively clean up, and the durability of SubMagnezone was suspect. Basically, the situation often fell as such:

1. My Magnezone vs. Opponent's Skarmory
2a. If Skarmory is holding Shed Shell, opponent often goes to Blissey. I sub. Procedure roughly adheres to step 3.
2b. Skarmory is not holding shed shell. I sub as Skarmory spikes, which is a pain in the ass when combined with SR. Go to step 3
3. Skarmory is Thunderbolted as Blissey/Tyranitar/Special Wall comes in, forcing me to switch out often or lose Magnezone altogether, losing 25 percent from substitute plus whatever entry hazards are in play.

I did also try ScarfZone, but that failed even harder (3 Choice Users on one team is never good for me).

Also, a Pokemon so reliant on a choice item for a speed boost has to deal with the massive priority in today's metagame. If you were locked into Close Combat (and thus lowering your stats as you attack), getting ruined on the last kill by a Bullet Punch/Ice Shard/etc. was a very common situation.
 
band heracross isn't very good, it is easily outsped and very frail. I think that scarf heracross is a little underrated but still not THAT good. Still, after clearing out ghosts/your opponent not having one, scarfacross has a decent potential to sweep with CC. For example, say my opponent has a couple pokes left, one of them a full-health latias (not scarfed). I CC and he switches to latias. he takes 12.5% from SR and ~30% from CC. Then, I can just switch out and the next time I switch in, latias is dead because if it switches in again it takes around 42.5% again and then I can muscle through it next turn for the kill. While a sweep is few and far between, it DOES happen more than people will expect
 
IMO SubSalacReversalCross(wow, a mouthful) with Reversal, Stone Edge/Shadow Claw, Substitute, Swords Dance/Bulk Up is the most useful set. That reversal is the strongest move best move Heracross has, while Bulk up boosts its weak defense and uses its average special defense, and more importantly, sets it apart from SubSalac Lucario.

This set is still trumped by Luc, and such... -_-
 
I would liked to have linked to one of the pre-DP Heracross discussions here but they all appear to have been lost in the purge. I specifically remember the quote 'Life is Hera weak' being thrown around in every other post and many posters were claiming that, if not for Gliscors introduction, Heracross would certainly be a candidate for Ubers. It should also be noted that, in Japan, Heracross was BANNED during the ADV generation. I'm not sure on the reasoning behind it, but one could speculate!

Now, a few years further down the line, Heracross sits at 45 in usage, hovering dangerously close to the drop zone into UU. The likes of Ninjask and Tentacruel sit comfortably above him. Few players even mention him in their threat lists. I'm a little confused as to how you can view this change of fortunes as anything other than a disappointment?

I think a big concern for teambuilders is that Heracross is forced to carry a choice item to be effective (SD sets are meh) and his primary attacking moves are resisted by some of the most devastating set-up sweepers in the game - Salamence, Gyarados, Lucario, Scizor, Latias, Infernape and many more can all come in and set up against a Heracross locked into the wrong attack. If you're using Hera you have to be even more wary around these Pokes than usual and considering how dangerous they are already, I could do without the additional burden. I suppose the same could be said for a lot of other Pokemon that are commonly choiced, most notably Heatran, but with Heracross I just don't feel as though he brings enough to the team to make the risk worthwhile.

Not to mention that if I were going to use a Choice Banded Bug type, I'd be using the No.1 Pokemon in the game, not the No.45th!
 
I think Heracros nowdays finds a much better usage in the Uber Tier. He's an excellent counter to Darkrai with Choice Scarf and Sleep Talk and the only common ghost-type in ubers are the Giratinas. Bug and Figthing provides a excellent type-coverage in ubers while in OU it's walled by a lot of things. Also, Heracross has some nice resistances for the uber metagame: Dark/Bug/Grass/Figthing
 
I would compare Heracross more to Scizor than Lucario, because both carry similar type coverage, have the distinction of being a reasonably bulky Bug type with bad speed and several of the same things that people would switch into a Scizor switch in quite well to Heracross (Gyarados, Rotom forms, Zapdos).

The only reason to really use Heracross is if you're paranoid of status (and even then, Machamp is available to you), but even then it requires really good prediction to take advantage of, moreso than most players care to invest.
 
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