Weight Based Moves (Fire and Steel)

[quziel]

So, we recently went through the second major discussion of whether to allow for incredibly high weight stat spreads in order to make Heat Crash a better Flare Blitz. In this case we decided to make Weight a part of the stat spread submission, as well as Heat Crash being a defining move. We previously went through this as part of Astrolotl's process, and ended up making the choice to fully deny Heat Crash. This is a touchy subject, as Stat spreads are voted on mere days before Art, and the weight of a Pokemon is typically treated as part of the flavor elements during a CAP project.

The purpose of this thread is to define a consistent approach to Weight. This problem will keep on coming up for us, as Heat Crash and Heavy Slam are the best moves of their physical attacking typings, featuring perfect accuracy, 120 BP (if you are Cosmeom), and no recoil, and as such there's a lot of desire from the competitive side to include them.

The current policy, in effect during CAP 32's process, was to allow stat spread submitters to define a weight, if they chose Heat Crash as a defining move.

I want thoughts on whether to continue with this policy, change it, or any thoughts in general.

Edit: Quany pointed out that Grass Knot and Low Kick also are something to be brought up here. Competitively optimal Water types (krilowatt) want to be 0 kg to minimize Gknot damage.

 

[Quanyails]

As someone who submits art, I think the way weight was handled last CAP was optimal. Using a damage calc instead specifying weight directly + making weight an optional stat offers artists flexibility without constraining competitive decisions. This applies to both offensive and defensive calcs.

 

[Brambane]

I think that defining weight when it is important to the project's damage calcs is more important to the process than the perceived mass of own art submission.

I think you have to have a ballpark of weight specified to hit certain damage thresholds against whatever is relevant in the metagame. Best example would be Corviknight, a Pokemon you where maximizing Heat Crash base power instead of using Flare Blitz is immensely useful since it both can stall you with Roost and can Rocky Helmet, is 75kg. So you need to specify a minimum 375 KG (more than Aggron for perspective) to hit that damage threshold with your stat spread.

If you have a Fire-type or Steel-type CAP, I say we just keep Heat Crash and Heavy Slam always on the table as the "strong, no drawback STAB" unless you want to cut their power budget as a balancing tool. They also are kinda coverage-y, but I think that is a very case-by-case basis.

We just need to acknowledge that weight is a competitive step in the process, although not always a relevant one. I think we can keep weight with stats. Obviously if Heat Crash or Heavy Slam are required moves, your spread would require weight. This is also the stage where you actually look at Grass Knot and Low Kick damage numbers anyways, so it makes the most sense to define weight at this stage if your spread makes relevant any of these four moves.

 

[Bughouse]

I wouldn't frankly worry about weight impacting people's decisions on art any more than I would about how art influences people's decisions on moves (or vice versa).

Like... Skeledirge is in the neighborhood of Torterra and Coalossal (actually heavier than both). Clodsire is 3x the weight of Quagsire.
I could go on and on I'm sure with examples of weights that make one scratch one's head.

Just decide on them for what makes most competitive sense for the CAP, and as Quanyails said so long as it's done where the decision is just CAP will fall within X damage range you have a lot to work with for flavor later on. There's already pokemon in basically every weight class with respect to damage output that don't really make much intuitive sense.