Water Arceus on Sun Team

daHsu

(this is my first post, so go easy on me!)
With Kyogre holding the title of most used weather inducer in Uber, making a sun team can be hard with all the rain interference. But with a solid sun core backed with a water arceus, a seemingly counterintuitive team can be just the thing to crush opposing rain teams.
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Arceus @ Splash Plate
Trait: Multitype
EVs: 252 Hp/ 44 SpD / 212 Spe
Calm Nature (+SpD/-Atk)
- Surf
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Refresh/ Thunder/ Will-o-wisp

The 212 EVs in Speed lets Arceus outspeed max speed + natures like Palkia and Salamence. Maximum investment in Hp so physical attackers don't hurt Arceus too much, and Surf over Judgement for more PP. This Arceus switches into Water Spout Kyogre easily, and if you sneak a calm mind in it takes Thunder pretty well too. In fact, Arceus is so bulky that a choice specs max spA +nature Kyogre can't even OHKO it before you start cm'ing (although it does leave you basically useless). Refresh is there for toxic, which kills most cm stallers. I don't particularly like thunder, since the only major threat it kills is kyogre, since I like to calm mind stall on kyogres rather than beating it down. Currently testing will-o-wisp as a third option to cripple Extreme killers and the like.

Although Arceus functions well on any team, on a sun team it should only be used as a late-game sweeper (when Groudon is gone and it's raining). I found that in most of my games I either used it as nothing more than a bulky pivot, or as the game-changing sweeper; nothing in between. Always watch out for physical attackers and ferrothorns (protect+leech seed+4x resistance is a pain), but once the opponent is down to solely special attackers, Water arceus will eat the opponent's team alive.

I'm still in the process of testing and may change my opinion over time, but as of now Water Arceus is a great use of a slot on sun teams.
 
If you wanted this to be anti-rain, wouldn't you also run Thunder to screw over the plethora of Water-types on Rain teams? Just a thought.

Also, most people who use Arceus-Water on Sun teams, yes that's a thing, use it for Support so they don't need to worry about losing the weather war in the first place since it is specifically designed to screw with Kyogre and make the lives of a lot of Rain-abusers a living hell. This allows for the rest of your team to function properly seeing as you can actually win the weather war which I feel is better than trying to have something in case Rain ends up winning the war.
 
Why you're using a mono attacking mon who's only move gets its power cut in half if you win the weather war is beyond me. Not to mention surf/judgment isn't the best way to stop kyogre. its also walled to death by lati@s, palkia, Ho oh in sun, gira etc.
 
Haruno said:
Why you're using a mono attacking mon who's only move gets its power cut in half if you win the weather war is beyond me.
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If the weather war is won or the opponent runs no weather, I can usually win with some powerful STAB Ho-oh/Blaziken. I have yet to see a match where Arceus is my last mon and working under the sun... although I may switch refresh out for thunder/thunderbolt since I've never had to use it.

Arceus is a pretty damn good wall against kyogre, unless it can phaze. after a calm mind, the only way kyogre can stop Arceus is a lucky paralyze off thunder.

This Arceus was completely based off of Shrang's warstory (5 mon sweep with Water Arceus http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3464979), and even though the context I'm using it is totally different, it can and will work wonders :D
 
I'd get rid of refresh and run Thunder as the other posters have suggested. Your set is completely walled by CM / Specs Kyogre and just about any other dragon (Palkia, Dialga, Zekrom, etc.)

Also you said, if the Kyogre is "lucky" to paralyze. Thunder has a 30% paralysis rate, and from my experience it will paralyze you if used 2-3 times. After that, you'd have to switch or leave it in as fodder.

... you may also want to loose calm mind for Ice beam. That way you don't have to put so much emphasis of winning the weather war and just concentrate on damage.
 
Water-Arceus is actually getting to be very common on sun teams for sure. It comes in handy to check so many threats. Thunder isn't going to be doing you much good, since you're using it in sun and you beat Kyogre anyways. A set of Surf/CM/Recover/Will-O-Wisp seems to be the best bet at the moment, since it allows you to beat Kyogre and Ferrothorn, as well as cripple Lum-less EKiller and other physical attackers.
 
superstar said:
Water-Arceus is actually getting to be very common on sun teams for sure. It comes in handy to check so many threats. Thunder isn't going to be doing you much good, since you're using it in sun and you beat Kyogre anyways. A set of Surf/CM/Recover/Will-O-Wisp seems to be the best bet at the moment, since it allows you to beat Kyogre and Ferrothorn, as well as cripple Lum-less EKiller and other physical attackers.
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If Kyogre is out, the weather is always rainy unless the opponent is stupid enough to let your Groudon switch in, not KO it, and let it switch out while Kyogre stays in during sunny weather.
If Kyogre is locked into Thunder, it will always switch out after Groudon switches in unless you're facing an idiot.

The Arceus-Water analysis page states this glaring mistruth as well:

Water Arceus might seem to be a poor check to Kyogre, as it is weak to Thunder; however, it is actually the best support Arceus for a sun team to use to check the titanic whale. Not only does Water Arceus excel defensively under sunlight, as Groudon's Drought reduces Thunder's accuracy to only 50%, but it also resists Ice Beam and Kyogre's Water-type STAB.
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Arceus-Water will not be facing Kyogre in the sun unless the Kyogre user is really stupid, therefore Thunder will have perfect accuracy in virtually every Kyogre vs Arceus-Water scenario.
Arceus-Water does not check Kyogre. This needs to be corrected.
 
ElectivireRocks said:
If Kyogre is out, the weather is always rainy unless the opponent is stupid enough to let your Groudon switch in, not KO it, and let it switch out while Kyogre stays in during sunny weather.
If Kyogre is locked into Thunder, it will always switch out after Groudon switches in unless you're facing an idiot.

The Arceus-Water analysis page states this glaring mistruth as well:


Arceus-Water will not be facing Kyogre in the sun unless the Kyogre user is really stupid, therefore Thunder will have perfect accuracy in virtually every Kyogre vs Arceus-Water scenario.
Arceus-Water does not check Kyogre. This needs to be corrected.
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This guy is right, Arceus-water will never be facing Kyogre in sun. This is why Arceus-Grass is superior. It checks Kyogre in any weather and if you run something like ho-oh or heatran, you can round off Arceus-Grass's weaknesses much more successfully than rounding off Arceus-Waters. When using arceus-water, you lose to palkia in rain 100% of the time.
 
I know Reshiram isn't very common now a days, but I recall this being a major reason it actually got into the analysis. Reshiram can be a real pain in the ass against certain sun teams, and Arceus's bulk and typing can make it a fairly good check. Sadly though, Ho-Oh is really hard to beat unless you have Stone Edge. I haven't used this thing in a long time though, but these are the reasons I used it a while ago (oh, and because Jibaku and firecape where big fans of it and wanted me to try it lol).
 
What I don't like about Water Arceus is how much of a sitting duck it can be. Sure, it's annoying as HELL to take out, but it usually doesn't do much besides walling for a few turns, Recover damage taken, and switch out. I never really liked it for this reason. I mostly will prefer using Fire Blast Grass Arceus, which can counter both Kyogre and Groudon effectively (Water Arceus cannot take repeated EQs) and wreck Skarmory and Forretress who think they can setup all over it. The Fire- weakness, like Donkey said, can be easily patched up by the use of Ho-Oh and Giratina, two common Pokemon in sun teams. Water Arceus is an extremely cool Pokemon, but I don't think it brings its A game when used in sun.
 
I find SD Arceus-Water to be extremely good, actually.
A +2 Waterfall can 2HKO Kyogre thanks to its own rain (Scarf Kyogre can't even switch on it since ES will go first and KO it the next turn) and it can even 2HKO Dialga and Ferrothorn in the same weather. Yes, a water type 2HKOing Ferrothorn with a water attack, you read it right.
Unlike Kabutops it's not useless without rain and it's a lot bulkier.
I'd definitely use the SD variant in a sun team if you're concerned about rain.

Grass-Arceus doesn't seem viable in ubers in BW2 to be honest, especially with Soul Dew Lati@s doing a better job at countering Kyogre, not to mention Genesect and Kyurem-W eat it alive, both common pokemon on rain teams.
 
Grassceus is indeed viable...It takes on both Kyogre and Groudon, and can check a TON of stuff. Plus, it's probably the best Palkia and offensive Dialga counter in the game.
 
ElectivireRocks said:
I find SD Arceus-Water to be extremely good, actually.
A +2 Waterfall can 2HKO Kyogre thanks to its own rain (Scarf Kyogre can't even switch on it since ES will go first and KO it the next turn) and it can even 2HKO Dialga and Ferrothorn in the same weather. Yes, a water type 2HKOing Ferrothorn with a water attack, you read it right.
Unlike Kabutops it's not useless without rain and it's a lot bulkier.
I'd definitely use the SD variant in a sun team if you're concerned about rain.

Grass-Arceus doesn't seem viable in ubers in BW2 to be honest, especially with Soul Dew Lati@s doing a better job at countering Kyogre, not to mention Genesect and Kyurem-W eat it alive, both common pokemon on rain teams.
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Grass-Arceus not viable. I hope you are trolling.

Do you actually play the game or just engage in bullshit theorycrafting without having an understanding of the tier?

Rain Palkia exists o0
 
No, I have been actually using Grassceus in both BW1 and BW2 and if you can't tell how much worse it got then you are the one trolling here.
Compare a metagame without Soul Dew, the Kyurem formes, Genesect and to a lesser extent Ho-oh not being as common as it is now (Genesect is almost always a free switch-in for Ho-oh, which is why it's so much better in BW2 than it was in BW1) to a metagame where its Grass STAB can't touch all the mentioned threats and Ice Beam barely 3HKO's them even after a CM boost.
I'm more than happy when I see Grassceus in the opposing team because it's essentially a free kill, not to mention I don't have to worry about facing, you know, actually good Arceus formes like Normal and Ghost.

If you're not running Recover you might as well use Skymin.
If you're not running Grass Knot you might as well use another Arceus forme.
The 3rd and 4th move need to be a coverage move (Ice Beam or Earth Power. Maybe Fire Blast?) and either CM or a status/support move, respctively.
It can't afford running 3 damaging attacks becaue then it can't get past things like CM Latias or Chansey/Blissey.

No matter what set it runs, Arceus-Grass is extremely easy to take advantage of by the aforementioned threats - and that's not all of them, mind you.

Been said that, I don't see Grassceus' place in this metagame.
 
If you're not running Recover you might as well use Skymin.
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The two aren't worth comparing, it's like comparing Ferrothorn to Gliscor. Grassceus is supposed to be a mighty tank, Skymin is a super speedy annoyer.

If you're not running Grass Knot you might as well use another Arceus forme.
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Well... duh? I don't see what this proves.

The 3rd and 4th move need to be a coverage move (Ice Beam or Earth Power. Maybe Fire Blast?) and either CM or a status/support move, respctively.
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-Grass Knot
-Recover
-Fire Blast
-Filler (Roar, Perish Song, Stealth Rock, etc)

Sounds like a damn good set to me.

It can't afford running 3 damaging attacks becaue then it can't get past things like CM Latias or Chansey/Blissey.
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Grassceus isn't supposed to be beating CM Latias and the fat blobs (though it can beat the former with Perish song/Roar). Grassceus is wasted as a sweeper, it's a tank that can combat every weather in Ubers. That is its role in the metagame.
 
I havent played much Ubers but what about replacing Water arecus for Dragon Arceus? You can run a Calm mind or a Swords dance .
 
GOthee said:
I havent played much Ubers but what about replacing Water arecus for Dragon Arceus? You can run a Calm mind or a Swords dance .
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Thing is, that unlike Water Arceus, it can't run a support set effectively, which is the most common set for Water Arceus in sun teams. Dragon Arceus's weakness to common Ice- and Dragon-moves makes it useless as a defensive Pokemon when compared to the other Arceus forms or Ubers. However, the offensive take of Dragon Arceus takes it to a whole new level; thanks to it being an obscure form, no one really expects it, thus in late-game you have a good chance of sweeping.
 
Arceus-Dragon is a cool sweeper once you have removed your opponent's choice-scarfed Dragon (assuming he/she has one). Its high speed, access to Swords Dance, and fantastic bulk make it a great late-game cleaner that can also serve as a hole puncher if needed.

As for the thread topic, Support Arceus-Water is best used on a Sand team. That way, its Judgment isn't weakened by Sun. Since lead TTar and Hippowdon will always set sand vs. Kyogre, Arceus-Water can switch in on Kyogre fairly safely unless Kyogre carries a status move. Also, I'd use Judgment over Surf as the extra PP surf offers usually isn't worth the small power drop. Example:

0 SpA Splash Plate Arceus-Water Surf vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh: 186-222 (44.81 - 53.49%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Splash Plate Arceus-Water Judgment (Water) vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh: 198-234 (47.71 - 56.38%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. (courtesy of Anikrahman)

One final note: I use a Judgment/Ice Beam/Recover/Thunder Wave set myself as I find winning CM wars with Waterceus difficult...I really prefer Support Waterceus. Ice Beam is for killing Rayquaza and denting Lugia and Grassceus that have already been statused.
 
Definitely viable and useful, but grass knot > thunder. I would advise against a cm set though as lacking stab for a set upper is pretty bad and grassceus would in that case be better imo. Instead, I would focus purely on utility with ice beam and gk.
 
What I don't like about Water Arceus is how much of a sitting duck it can be. Sure, it's annoying as HELL to take out, but it usually doesn't do much besides walling for a few turns, Recover damage taken, and switch out. I never really liked it for this reason. I mostly will prefer using Fire Blast Grass Arceus, which can counter both Kyogre and Groudon effectively (Water Arceus cannot take repeated EQs) and wreck Skarmory and Forretress who think they can setup all over it. The Fire- weakness, like Donkey said, can be easily patched up by the use of Ho-Oh and Giratina, two common Pokemon in sun teams. Water Arceus is an extremely cool Pokemon, but I don't think it brings its A game when used in sun.
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I kind of agree and don't agree with what Furai says. Generally I use Water Arceus on sun to check Ho-oh + Kyogre, which is something Grass Arceus can't do (you can build around it with Heatran / Giratina but they don't fit on all teams (namely some of the more offensive ones) and EQ ho-oh isn't really nice to Heatran (not that many people use it but js)). Its true Kyogre can use Thunder in the rain, but generally it has to play a guessing game. Water Arceus can switch into Groudon when Kyogre uses Thunder and then switch right back in. This is further complicated by the fact most Kyogre are choiced and that Water Arceus is barely 2HKOed by scarf Thunder (252+ SpA Kyogre Thunder vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Arceus-Water: 212-250 (47.74 - 56.3%) -- 85.16% chance to 2HKO) <- I know Specs Ogre will do far more + underspeed but its forced to switch the turn after too. I'm not saying Water Arceus wants to stomach that move, but it can scout to see what move Ogre uses / if it holds a Choiced item and proceed to respond accordingly (ex: if Scarf / Specs + Thunder -> switch to Groudon). Grass Arceus checks Kyogre without having to rely on this prediction but at the same time Ho-oh kind of screws it over (unless your using Stone Edge Grass Arc but 4 moveslot syndrome)... which I think kind of distinguishes the two for supporting sun teams.

No, I have been actually using Grassceus in both BW1 and BW2 and if you can't tell how much worse it got then you are the one trolling here.
Compare a metagame without Soul Dew, the Kyurem formes, Genesect and to a lesser extent Ho-oh not being as common as it is now (Genesect is almost always a free switch-in for Ho-oh, which is why it's so much better in BW2 than it was in BW1) to a metagame where its Grass STAB can't touch all the mentioned threats and Ice Beam barely 3HKO's them even after a CM boost.
I'm more than happy when I see Grassceus in the opposing team because it's essentially a free kill, not to mention I don't have to worry about facing, you know, actually good Arceus formes like Normal and Ghost.

If you're not running Recover you might as well use Skymin.
If you're not running Grass Knot you might as well use another Arceus forme.
The 3rd and 4th move need to be a coverage move (Ice Beam or Earth Power. Maybe Fire Blast?) and either CM or a status/support move, respctively.
It can't afford running 3 damaging attacks becaue then it can't get past things like CM Latias or Chansey/Blissey.

No matter what set it runs, Arceus-Grass is extremely easy to take advantage of by the aforementioned threats - and that's not all of them, mind you.

Been said that, I don't see Grassceus' place in this metagame.
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Everything you've said is true, but Grass Arceus can do things that even Latias can't do (biggest being check rain palkia). Grass Arceus can also be a sponge for absorbing Draco Meteors / switching into dragons in rain in general (barring Kyurem forms). It should be noted that it is the only mon in the game to be able to do all of the above while checking Specs Ogre, and spreading burns. Grass Arceus does not enjoy taking on Kyogre + Gene, but no Ogre check (MAYBE SDef Gira-a but it still can't do everything Grass Arc can plus has to rely on rest) can without getting or having the team take heavy damage.
 
With this set specially defensive ferrothorn will stop you dead if its running protect leech seed esspecailly if your own sun is up it can just stall you out a +6 surf doesn't 2HKO in sun 100% of the time
Also Power whip from 4 attack ferrothorn

4 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Water: 212-252 (47.74 - 56.75%) -- 85.94% chance to 2HKO
With this you can't recover CM to +6.I feel because ferro is such a huge part of this meta you set even with thunder has a lot of problems

Also CM latias can set up all over you and will win seen as surf is resisted by latias.This is a very dangerous problem for the rest of your team

water arceus is to easy to set up on with either entry hazards or stat boosting
 
I normally don't use A-Water that much, I like Palkia much much more, but the few time I have used it, I normally run:

EVs: 200 HP / 212 SDef / 96 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower

I mean, tbh, the move set changes depending on my team. Sometime I have Roar/ Perish Song over wOw because I sometimes have Giratina which can provide that wOw support. I carry T-Bolt for stuff like Oger. Flamethrower, again, changes w/ team construction. Sometimes it's flamethrower because I lack another pokemon w/ a fire type attack baring my main fire sweeper, other times it's ice beam if I need better coverage for dragons, not only that, but you get bolt-beam going on. And sometimes I use surf/ judgment, if I need the water type move support but most time it ends up being Ice Beam or Flamethrower. I've never really given A-Water a set-up sweeper role on my teams because, as people have said, it gets checked by quite a few things, such as Lati@s, Palkia, Dialga, and Ferrothorn to name a few.
 
My opinion:

Arceus-Water is terrible. Throwing it on a sun team only makes it worse. It's a wasted slot on your team where something better could be, not to mention a wasted Arceus form. I believe that in nearly every case you would be better off using Latias or Palkia as a Kkyogre check, which also both work in sun.

If you absolutely need to use an Arceus form as a Kyogre check, use Arceus-Grass. Just make sure your team isn't too weak to Gene, but if you are running sun I doubt it will be.
 
This is a very strange yet very interesting idea. However if I were using it on a sun-team to be anti-Rain, I would give it attacking moves it could use in sun. Therefore I suggest this set:

Arceus-Water @ Splash Plate
Trait: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP/252 SpA/4 SpD
Nature: Modest
IVs: 0 Atk
-Judgement/Surf
-Thunderbolt
-Grass Knot/Focus Blast
-Recover

This lets you use Arceus-Water offensively in all weathers, destroying common Rain team Pokemon with Thunderbolt/Grass Knot, or Ferrothorn with Focus Blast (how many it takes is based on Ferrothorn's spread and how many times the move actually hits), while maintaining reliable recovery. Judgement or Surf can be used as a STAB.

However by using this you are using up a teamslot that could go to something like Ho-Oh or Kyurem-White that abuses sun better. I'd almost rather use Cradily in a way (find Water Spout bait).
 
I've done arceus water that can function in the sun before
heres what you wanna do with it

go timid and get between 329 and 334 speed and get a leftovers-2 number for hp, then put the rest into def/spd, and have 1 more spd than defense in case of download
if an ev is leftover put it in spd or spa

get fire blast hydro pump/judgement/surf some other moves which should probably include recover
you wanna be able to be good in sun and rain, except you'd be better in the rain anyway and you just happen to destroy ferrothorn easily
you really don't wanna use this guy as your kyogre switchin or the variant mentioned in the OP because you never know what kind of kyogre hes running until its usually too late
 
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