Walrein (Analysis) [QC 3/3]

HiddenPowerNormal

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Type: Ice / Water
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Overview
Pros:
-One of the most underrated, yet great stallers in the game
-Great 110 / 90 / 90 defences for a lower tier pokemon
-It's ability Ice Body gives it extra HP recovery which combined with protect is a force to reckon with
-Decentish base 95 SAtk but has no movepool

Cons:
-Walrein's ice typing gives it a weakness to Stealth Rock, which always sucks
-Requires a lot of team support to function well on some sets
-Loads of exploitable weaknesses
-Not to many options for sets

[SET]
name: Stallrein (Toxicstall)
move 1: Protect
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Blizzard / Surf
move 4: Super Fang / Toxic / Roar
item: Leftovers
ability: Ice Body
nature: Bold
evs: 220 HP / 252 Def / 36 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
-Protect + Sub + Ice Body = Unlimited Subs
-Surf / Blizzard is your STAB so you're not Taunt Bait. Surf is for Steel types and Blizzard is for Flying types
-Super Fang is for halving the time stalling and the window of opportunity for the opponent to attack Walrein
-Toxic is for Pokemon who are immune to Toxic Spikes
-Roar is for quickly removing a threat

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
-Requires Toxic Spikes and Hail support and also appreciates extra entry hazard support
-Flying / Steel / Poison types need to be removed off the field for Walrein
-Running Speed EVs can also work so Walrein can get up Subs before the opponent attacks him
-Pairs nicely with a cleric, who can remove statuses like Toxic off Walrein who then can continue stalling
-220 HP EVs give Walrein 416 HP so his Subs aren't broken by SToss and the Defence EVs give it maximum physical bulk and the last 36 go in SpD for filler pretty much
-Nidoqueen makes a good partner, it can take Fighting-type attacks aimed at Walrein

[OTHER OPTIONS]
-Brine+Super Fang+Hail is a deadly combination. STAB base 130 Attack doesn't play games
-RestTalk set could be viable

[COUNTERS]
Stallrein
-Anything that can Toxic Walrein before it sets up a Sub, if Walrein lacks a cleric
-The first one that comes to mind is Clefable because it is immune to Toxic and Hail, and can easily cripple Walrein with Toxic
-Articuno is also a nice counter to Walrein if Walrein lacks Toxic or Articuno has Heal Bell, due to Articuno being immune to TSpikes + Hail and having Roost as recovery, and can also cripple Walrein with Toxic
-Any Poison type who can take a Blizzard / Surf, has reliable recovery and retaliate with Toxic, takes care of Walrein
-Heracross is a decent counters due to Guts and STAB Close Combats
-Anything that can take one of Walrein's hits or outspeeds him and has a STAB Super-Effective Multi-Hit move like Cinccino or Rhyperior on SOME occasions such as if Walrein lacks Surf and Rhyperior is max invested in speed

[DREAM WORLD]
-Walrein gets Obivious as his Dream World Ability, which is honestly useless
 
You need to change the tag to (Quality Control) as this has not yet passed the QC stage. Also, in my opinion, the RestTalk set is outclassed by "StallRein" and I think it should be removed from the analysis. Let's see what QC says, though.
 
elDino said:
You need to change the tag to (Quality Control) as this has not yet passed the QC stage. Also, in my opinion, the RestTalk set is outclassed by "StallRein" and I think it should be removed from the analysis. Let's see what QC says, though.
Click to expand...

I agree that the RestTalk set is outclassed by Stallrein, but it does work as a decent wall outside of hail. Also this analysis wouldn't be much of an analysis with only 1 set
 
Well, having one set doesn't make it a bad analysis. For example, the Jellicent analysis has only one set, but it is still a great analysis. Having more sets does not always make the analysis better.
 
You should also mention HOW Clefable and Articuno counter Walrein. Honestly they aren't too much of a threat to Walrein without carrying Toxic themselves, which you should probably mention (and even that is stoppable by the resttalk set.)
 
"-Flying / Steel types need to be removed off the field for Walrein"

I think you mean poison types, as they actually remove toxic spikes, while flying types just ignore them, and can be hit with blizzard instead.
 
Yeah remove the Sleep Talk set, it isn't good.
You could mention Brine which is a 130 base power move when coupled with Super Fang and Hail.
Also a nitpick, in the title you say Walrien.
 
I'm hesitant to comment because of no 5th gen experience, but shouldn't Toxic not be that much of a counter to Walrein? If you end the turn with a Substitute up, you should be able to keep that Substitute up and therefore be immune to status. Toxic would only work against Walrein if Walrein attempts to start stalling without a Sub - not smart on Walrein's part. This rules out poison types as counters. Articuno still beats Walrein, but it would need to use Roar on the Substitute turn. Clefable also beats Walrein, simply because it should stall Walrein out of PP before Walrein stalls it out of PP (it can set up with Calm Mind or similar too). Heracross and Hariyama though should be easily beaten if it comes in on Walrein's Sub - it will die to hail before they can even hit Walrein. Even with priority, you're looking at something like:

Walrein uses Sub
Hariyama / Heracross switches in
--
Walrein uses Protect
Hariyama / Heracross takes damage
--
Walrein uses Sub
Hariyama / Heracross breaks the Sub, but are faced with a new one, Walrein has taken 0% damage
--
Ad infinitum (well, for 32 turns anyway)

Other counters would simply be Resting Pokemon who can stall Walrein out of PP by not using Sleep Talk (4th gen example here would be Milotic). Multi-hit moves like Rock Blast or Double Hit can break the Sub and hit Walrein, too.

PS: You probably want to remove RestTalk Heracross as a counter. After getting a few too many Close Combats, Heracross will die to Surf / Blizzard.
 
Banedon said:
I'm hesitant to comment because of no 5th gen experience, but shouldn't Toxic not be that much of a counter to Walrein? If you end the turn with a Substitute up, you should be able to keep that Substitute up and therefore be immune to status. Toxic would only work against Walrein if Walrein attempts to start stalling without a Sub - not smart on Walrein's part. This rules out poison types as counters. Articuno still beats Walrein, but it would need to use Roar on the Substitute turn. Clefable also beats Walrein, simply because it should stall Walrein out of PP before Walrein stalls it out of PP (it can set up with Calm Mind or similar too). Heracross and Hariyama though should be easily beaten if it comes in on Walrein's Sub - it will die to hail before they can even hit Walrein. Even with priority, you're looking at something like:

Walrein uses Sub
Hariyama / Heracross switches in
--
Walrein uses Protect
Hariyama / Heracross takes damage
--
Walrein uses Sub
Hariyama / Heracross breaks the Sub, but are faced with a new one, Walrein has taken 0% damage
--
Ad infinitum (well, for 32 turns anyway)

Other counters would simply be Resting Pokemon who can stall Walrein out of PP by not using Sleep Talk (4th gen example here would be Milotic). Multi-hit moves like Rock Blast or Double Hit can break the Sub and hit Walrein, too.

PS: You probably want to remove RestTalk Heracross as a counter. After getting a few too many Close Combats, Heracross will die to Surf / Blizzard.
Click to expand...

Yeah thanks that helps, but Heracross is a counter mainly because it outspeeds Walrein and OHKOs with CC and Stallrein is about making perfect predictions if he makes 1 wrong descision, it's game over andd I'll remove Hariyama as a counter because it fails to outspeed. Poison types with recovery that can take a Blizzard/surf are easily a counter if they out-predict Walrein. Thanks for telling me about Multi-hit moves and Rest-Talk sets they also work great.

Delko said:
Yeah remove the Sleep Talk set, it isn't good.
You could mention Brine which is a 130 base power move when coupled with Super Fang and Hail.
Also a nitpick, in the title you say Walrien.
Click to expand...

I'm going to wait on QC to judge RestTalk before I take it off and Super Fang + Hail + Brine is definately going into Other Options
 
I'm not convinced. For Heracross to outspeed Walrein and KO with CC, it needs Walrein to not have a Sub up. How is Walrein not going to have a Sub up? Look at the situation I wrote above:

Walrein uses Sub
Hariyama / Heracross switches in
--
Walrein uses Protect
Hariyama / Heracross takes damage
--
Walrein uses Sub
Hariyama / Heracross breaks the Sub, but are faced with a new one, Walrein has taken 0% damage
--
Ad infinitum (well, for 32 turns anyway)
Click to expand...

Now if Heracross has Rest, it survives for a while, but eventually it'll get enough CCs to drop its defenses sufficiently for Walrein KO with Surf / Blizzard. Walrein can attack behind the Sub instead of using Sub again, and then Heracross will die. There is no prediction on Walrein's part.

Btw are there any Poison types with recovery that can take Blizzard / Surf easily? I can't think of any off the top of my head. Steel types I suppose RestTalk Registeel qualifies, but idk. I haven't played 5th gen.
 
I agree with most of Banedon's sentiments. Walrein is kind of useless without Substitute...

Honestly, all Walrein needs in its analysis is the Stallrein set, as that is its most famous set and the most dangerous. The RestTalk set is situational at best, and too easily countered by Fighting-types like Banedon mentioned. Empoleon, Suicune, and countless others are better at RestTalking. All Walrein is going to do with that set is sit there be fat. It isn't going to threaten much since it isn't setting up anything and Walrein doesn't exactly hard-counter much of the metagame like Dusclops does. IMO, remove the RestTalk set and mention it in OO.

I'll add more once the set is removed.
 
Oglemi said:
I agree with most of Banedon's sentiments. Walrein is kind of useless without Substitute...

Honestly, all Walrein needs in its analysis is the Stallrein set, as that is its most famous set and the most dangerous. The RestTalk set is situational at best, and too easily countered by Fighting-types like Banedon mentioned. Empoleon, Suicune, and countless others are better at RestTalking. All Walrein is going to do with that set is sit there be fat. It isn't going to threaten much since it isn't setting up anything and Walrein doesn't exactly hard-counter much of the metagame like Dusclops does. IMO, remove the RestTalk set and mention it in OO.

I'll add more once the set is removed.
Click to expand...

Thanks for telling me that RestTalk is now in Other Options
 
Looks good, but you need to explain the EVs and nature in the Additional Comments section. Also I think you should stop saying things like "that can Toxic Walrein before it sets up a Sub" because if you play Stallrein right then it shouldn't be poisoned. Just mention that cleric support is appreciated and leave it at that.

Mention entry hazard support in general, not just Toxic Spikes. Nidoqueen makes a good partner, it can take Fighting-type attacks aimed at Walrein too.

-Not to many options for sets
Click to expand...

Not really a con. Walrein only has that one set because it's what it does best.

One last thing, Articuno is pretty much never seen in UU, I'd remove mentions of it. Plus it gets mauled by Stealth Rock.
 
Moo said:
Looks good, but you need to explain the EVs and nature in the Additional Comments section. Also I think you should stop saying things like "that can Toxic Walrein before it sets up a Sub" because if you play Stallrein right then it shouldn't be poisoned. Just mention that cleric support is appreciated and leave it at that.

Mention entry hazard support in general, not just Toxic Spikes. Nidoqueen makes a good partner, it can take Fighting-type attacks aimed at Walrein too.



Not really a con. Walrein only has that one set because it's what it does best.

One last thing, Articuno is pretty much never seen in UU, I'd remove mentions of it. Plus it gets mauled by Stealth Rock.
Click to expand...

Sure I'll make those changes.
And yeah Arcticuno is pretty much never seen in UU so I'll remove him. I only put him there because it was the first thing that came to my mind.
 
Slash Blizzard before Surf on the third spot.

and then

don't forget that the order under [SET] is:

[SET]
name:
move 1:
move 2:
move 3:
move 4:
item:
ability:
nature:
evs:

Also, Special Defense is abbreviated as SpD.

And finally, the order of the analysis goes Overview, [SET], OO, Counters, Dream World

contrib_qc.png


QC 1/3

EDIT: The other QCers can tweak the EV spread, but I'm pretty sure it's fine as is.
 
o lol the order of an analysis should go:

Overview, [SET], [SET COMMENTS], [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS], OO, Counters, Dream World.

Sorry for the confusion.
 
Ok, optimal evs are:

220 HP / 252 def / 36 spdef bold

The HP evs give you 416 total HP, which means 104 HP subs, which means Walrein isnt losing any HP from sub+protect

physical defense is maximized to take advantage of resistances. Very few special attacks are hitting Walrein for neutral damage, making physical defense the top priority.
 
If maximizing physical defense while making Stallrein still work is the top priority, I would go with the EV spread:

232 HP / 252 Def / 24 SpD Bold

Even with 419 HP (16x+3), Walrein can still string together "infinite" subs and protects without losing any HP in the process. Those HP EVs go straight to physical bulk.
 
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