Wait... Garchomp's uncounterable?

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cim

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Sorry for the inevitable 10 page argument that will arise here, but right now I'd like to kindly ask not to talk about Garchomp's tier status in this thread. Please. For the love of God.

I've heard people say "Garchomp is uncounterable". These people break into a few groups. The first, and probably least populated group, are people that assume a Garchomp counter needs to be able to take a +6 Life Orb Dragon Claw or Earthquake. These people don't really have a valid argument, as no Garchomp set should ever get 3 Swords Dances under its belt. The second group are people that, when a counter is named, they claim that's an "overcentralized" counter and it's too specific. For the sake of discussing viable Chomp counters, I'll ignore that point here.

The third group, and I think is the most common, are ones that use the phrase to say that there's no counter that negates close to everything Garchomp does. These people make the probably correct point that Garchomp doesn't have a Gliscor-quality counter. To these people, since Garchomp has no 100% counter, he must be nearly unstoppable and a unique force in the metagame to not have a counter.

This is what I mainly wanted to address here, the whole "unique" bit. Forgive me if I put words in one's mouth, but I'm assuming since Garchomp is the only one discussed by people in this school of thought that he is unique in (potentially) not having a 100% counter. There are several metagame threats that do not have a 100% counter. Let's start with Porygon-Z. Is there anything in the game that is not 2HKO'd by him after a Nasty Plot? Even Blissey is KO'd with Return and Attack EVs. A PorygonZ has no "full-stop"; you have to have something faster to revenge kill him or do well with a Calm Blissey to handle him.

Now, substitute Porygon-Z with Garchomp in the above argument and it still holds. Here it is, with a few Substitutes. Yup, that's a pun. "Is there anything in the game that is not 2HKO'd by him after a Swords Dance? Even Hippowdon is KO'd with Draco Meteor and Special Attack EVs. A Garchomp has no "full-stop"; you have to have something faster to revenge kill him or do well with a Bold Cresselia to handle him."

There are other examples I can substitute into that statement (Tyranitar, for example, with Hariyama at the end). So the thought that Garchomp is something uniquely uncounterable doesn't seem to really hold up here.

That being said, I actually think Garchomp has a few viable near 100% counters. Cresselia can be 2HKO'd by a Choice Band Outrage... if she's Modest. However, if you have one layer of Spikes on the field, you can run 80 HP / 252 Def / 176 SAtk; Bold and OHKO after that 12%'s chipped away while surviving said Outrages. Not to mention that Choice Band Outrage is an extreme case that opens up Pokémon like (Choice Band) Steelix to come in and Ice Fang. Excluding Chain Chomp, Hippowdon works very well as a counter too. Sand Veil can get annoying, true, but there are worse abilities in my opinion.

In terms of less than 100% counters, there actually appear to be several. Hariyama with 204 HP and 252 Defense will survive a Swords Dance Outrage and KO with Ice Punch. Traditional Bulky Waters like Vaporeon and (200 SAtk) Suicune still work, as do Ice Sharders on the revenge kill. Yache Berry can mess some of these up, but the bulkier ones will be able to take two Life Orbless hits.

So what's the purpose of this thread and post? I want to discuss some viable Garchomp counters. Post up your sets (like my 80/252/176 Cresselia up there) and let's generally discuss ways to stop Garchomp. Again, I'd appreciate it if you leave tier discussion out of this. No one will convince anyone of anything and it will just get locked again.
 
I used to use Focus Sash Froslass. It worked fine on my team, since I had a weather changer.

She can switch in and then kill Chomp or at least scare it away. On Scarfers, she can revenge kill at least.
 
On that train of thought, would Articuno (with a Rapid Spinner of course) work? Articuno definitely has the defenses and typing to handle Garchomp, plus Roost and great Special Defense too. It doesn't even need SAtk EVs with STAB on its side.
 
garchomp is #1 in use list, i would rather have a month without it
metagross can kill a garchomp with ice punch but cant switch in on it, that's just using the agigross EV build, (using its steel type it helps come in on outrage though) starmie can kill it with ice beam, other then revenge killing though i not seen a way of taking it on switch
 
Articuno won't like it if Garchomp carries Stone Edge; Bold 252/252 Articuno takes >80% from max Attack Jolly Chomp, and all variants are OHKOd after a Swords Dance.
 
He's very difficult to counter, that's for sure. A lot of "counters" such as Hippowdon, Gliscor and Cresselia can go down to Swords Dance Outrage especially when Yache Berry is thrown into the fray. ChainChomp should always be considered too in the case of the former two, despite his rarity.

I like to use Uxie + CB Weavile. Uxie's fantastic defence and EQ immunity are a godsend and he partners up well with Weavile. The scenario usually goes like this.

I switch out Heatran
I switch in Uxie
Garchomp used Earthquake!
Uxie makes Ground attacks miss with Levitate

Garchomp used Swords Dance/Dragon Claw
Uxie used U-Turn
I send out Weavile.

Garchomp dies or switches out. A lot of people seem to think YacheChomp can take Weavile on so I end up getting the kill right there. Uxie doesn't enjoy Outrages much though, so I have to work in a Steel. But that's what Garchomp does; he forces you to use several Pokemon to counter and/or revenge kill him unlike other big threats like Hera or SpecsMence that have single definitive counters.
 
phalanx said:
garchomp is #1 in use list, i would rather have a month without it
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I don't mean to be rude, but I tried to ask you guys nicely not to talk about a test or un-Uberness or any tier stuff. Please, not now.

Arseus makes a good point, though I haven't seen many Stone Edge Chomps lately... or ever. It's still a move on the Choice Bander tough so that's definitely worth noting.
 
Chris is me said:
Sorry for the inevitable 10 page argument that will arise here, but right now I'd like to kindly ask not to talk about Garchomp's tier status in this thread. Please. For the love of God.

I've heard people say "Garchomp is uncounterable". These people break into a few groups. The first, and probably least populated group, are people that assume a Garchomp counter needs to be able to take a +6 Life Orb Dragon Claw or Earthquake. These people don't really have a valid argument, as no Garchomp set should ever get 3 Swords Dances under its belt. The second group are people that, when a counter is named, they claim that's an "overcentralized" counter and it's too specific. For the sake of discussing viable Chomp counters, I'll ignore that point here.

The third group, and I think is the most common, are ones that use the phrase to say that there's no counter that negates close to everything Garchomp does. These people make the probably correct point that Garchomp doesn't have a Gliscor-quality counter. To these people, since Garchomp has no 100% counter, he must be nearly unstoppable and a unique force in the metagame to not have a counter.

This is what I mainly wanted to address here, the whole "unique" bit. Forgive me if I put words in one's mouth, but I'm assuming since Garchomp is the only one discussed by people in this school of thought that he is unique in (potentially) not having a 100% counter. There are several metagame threats that do not have a 100% counter. Let's start with Porygon-Z. Is there anything in the game that is not 2HKO'd by him after a Nasty Plot? Even Blissey is KO'd with Return and Attack EVs. A PorygonZ has no "full-stop"; you have to have something faster to revenge kill him or do well with a Calm Blissey to handle him.

Now, substitute Porygon-Z with Garchomp in the above argument and it still holds. Here it is, with a few Substitutes. Yup, that's a pun. "Is there anything in the game that is not 2HKO'd by him after a Swords Dance? Even Hippowdon is KO'd with Draco Meteor and Special Attack EVs. A Garchomp has no "full-stop"; you have to have something faster to revenge kill him or do well with a Bold Cresselia to handle him."

There are other examples I can substitute into that statement (Tyranitar, for example, with Hariyama at the end). So the thought that Garchomp is something uniquely uncounterable doesn't seem to really hold up here.

That being said, I actually think Garchomp has a few viable near 100% counters. Cresselia can be 2HKO'd by a Choice Band Outrage... if she's Modest. However, if you have one layer of Spikes on the field, you can run 80 HP / 252 Def / 176 SAtk; Bold and OHKO after that 12%'s chipped away while surviving said Outrages. Not to mention that Choice Band Outrage is an extreme case that opens up Pokémon like (Choice Band) Steelix to come in and Ice Fang. Excluding Chain Chomp, Hippowdon works very well as a counter too. Sand Veil can get annoying, true, but there are worse abilities in my opinion.

In terms of less than 100% counters, there actually appear to be several. Hariyama with 204 HP and 252 Defense will survive a Swords Dance Outrage and KO with Ice Punch. Traditional Bulky Waters like Vaporeon and (200 SAtk) Suicune still work, as do Ice Sharders on the revenge kill. Yache Berry can mess some of these up, but the bulkier ones will be able to take two Life Orbless hits.

So what's the purpose of this thread and post? I want to discuss some viable Garchomp counters. Post up your sets (like my 80/252/176 Cresselia up there) and let's generally discuss ways to stop Garchomp. Again, I'd appreciate it if you leave tier discussion out of this. No one will convince anyone of anything and it will just get locked again.
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Cloyster IIRC can stop pretty counter any Garchomp not of the ChainChomp variety... CB Stone Edge only has a chance of 2-hit KO >_>. Stallrein can survive anything and everything Garchomp has to throw at it (including CB Stone Edges, Chain Chomp Draco Meteors, etc. etc.), have enough HP left to subsitute, and then stall it out in the hail. Froslass and Mamoswine revenge kill him and Blizzard in a Hailstorm ignores the BrightPowder, and hail of course stops sand veil. Even with Yache Berry, Life Orb STAB Blizzard from Froslass always OHKOs.

While it isn't the "point" of hail teams to counter Garchomp... it is one very nice side effect that Garchomp has a very difficult time switching in on anything in a standard hail team. Even standards like Blissey become a threat to Suicide Sweeper Garchomp. You can run enough EVs to always KO the Suicide Sweeper with Blizzard, and still have enough Def EVs leftover to always survive CB Outrage (if you mispredict what kind of Garchomp it is). Outside of a hailstorm, it still works 70% of the time.

Granted, none of the above are "counters" to Garchomp... but I feel they were worth mentioning. Outside of hail... I dunno. Hail is my specialty >_<

EDIT: I should note that CB Skill Link Icicle spear from Cloyster will always OHKO 0/0 Garchomp with enough Attack EVs, even if he is behind a sub. It may eat up the Yache Berry and KO him as well... but I don't know the details on that. (Does Yache Berry block all hits or just the first one?)
 
Chris is me said:
Sand Veil can get annoying, true, but there are worse abilities in my opinion.
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You ignore this point in your opening statement, ignore the fact that Sand Stream is one of the most common method of turning on weather in DP OU, and ignore that now even with a "100%" counter, you're now only an 80% counter in sand, with sand also either negating Leftovers recovery or slowly chipping away on whatever you're trying to wall Garchomp with.

The problem of Garchomp isn't just unpredictability, a fairly retarded stat distribution and a movepool that allows it to cover almost any of its "counters," although all of these are arguments you brought up initially. Garchomp's major infuriating flaw is that even if you get your counter in, even if it doesn't get one-shotted by Garchomp, even if you don't give it time to set up and still have a shot at beating him before he beats you, if sand is up, you're still dice rolling whether (MORE LIKE WEATHER LOL) your counter is actually countering Garchomp or just letting it LOL in the sand and then taking you down.
 
Hmm... well I personally always run Stone Edge on Garchomp. In any case, I wouldn't feel good about switching Articuno in knowing Garchomp could have a move that can OHKO even without SD, and has a high critical hit ratio. Articuno also takes 50% every time it switches in while Stealth Rock is in play. IMO a potential "counter" would ideally not lose so much HP from something that may be in effect at any time.
 
Dragontamer said:
Cloyster IIRC can stop pretty counter any Garchomp not of the ChainChomp variety... CB Stone Edge only has a chance of 2-hit KO >_>.
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Actually, that sounds like a great idea. If you can somehow EV Cloyster to survive a Draco Meteor, Icicle Spear can even easily take down Yache Berry versions (I'm pretty sure Yache only counts for the first hit), and break Garchomp's subs.
 
It depends on your team and style of play. For example, if you're using the aforementioned Hail team, a Trick Room team, or a Rain Dance team, Garchomp would be of little problem, not because you can stop it once it gets in, but mainly because it'll never be able to get anything off. Now, if you're just spamming CBStone Edges all around from your Tyranitar, you -will- get fucked and probably swept by a Garchomp (or Lucario, but that's besides the point).

It depends on how you play as well. A stall team would have both Skarmory and Cresselia. No matter how you argue it, once I set up Toxic Spikes (which is quite a priority), there's no way Garchomp is getting past Skarmory and Cresselia. You want to argue that SD Outrage will rape Cress? Then I'll let it take one and go to Skarmory and Roost stall it. Just because there's no way to stop every set, does not mean everyone will use every set. Sure, they might use SD+LO Garchomp, a SubSalac Garchomp, CB, Scarf, Chain Chomp, but I'd still say Cresselia stops pretty much all of them pretty well, if not just using Reflect+Ice Beam.
 
what would fire blast do to cloyster?
and walrien might not take an EQ
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Both are part water. Garchomp Draco Meteor would hurt more and thats what they should be EVing for anyway.

As for the Walrein Comment... look up good ol Stallrein. Here are the damage calcs from my old topic:

Choice Band Adamant 252 Earthquake: 50.72% - 59.62%. If you catch him on the switch, you can safely substitute afterwards and start the stall cycle.
Choice Band Adamant 252 Outrage: 60.58% - 71.39%. You still can safely get your substitute up and out-stall him.
ChainChomp Draco Meteor: 56.97% - 67.07%.
ChainChomp Fire Blast: 32.69% - 38.46%
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Hell, CB Adamant Earthquake is a 3-hit KO in the hail. (Walrein gains 12.5% health each turn in the hail) And who does CB Adamant Garchomp? More like CB Jolly...

Anyway, Walrein doesn't counter Garchomp. But if Walrein and Garchomp get in on the same time and Walrein has his Hail Support, Garchomp cannot win.
 
Well I think a lot of the "uncounterable" talk is mostly done on paper. Sure ChainChomp and CBChomp exist, but in my experience on Shoddy they are not that common. The two I see the most are SDchomp and ScarfChomp.

I find the best way to deal with SDchomp is to phaze it. That way, the surprise is no longer there. On my team personally I've never had a problem with chomp. I run a Roar Vaporeon and WW Skarm. Neither give two fucks about ScarfChomp. Fire blasts aimed at skarm can be absorbed by Vaporeon.

Gliscor also doesn't mind coming and throwing Ice Fangs around. ChainChomp excluded.

The key though is scouting it. Once you know what your up against very few things are uncounterable.
 
The only problem with saying that Garchomp has a counter is that most skilled players keep their Garchomp in the shadows until they are sure that the counters are out of the way or weakened before striking. Even then Yache berry screws over many would be counters, such as Hippowdon.

It can really only be revenge killed and even then a solid team behind it can easily ruin that.
 
chewy said:
The only problem with saying that Garchomp has a counter is that most skilled players keep their Garchomp in the shadows until they are sure that the counters are out of the way or weakened before striking. Even then Yache berry screws over many would be counters, such as Hippowdon.

It can really only be revenge killed and even then a solid team behind it can easily ruin that.
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The same can be said for any staple of a team. Bellyzard? Lucario? Walrein? They all have the same strategy. Rape the counters and sweep (or stall) to the finish.

It only works on the first hit of a multi-hit attack.
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Okay, so Cloyster is a valid strategy.
 
I don't really see the point of this thread, as a Pokemon's ability to be countered really doesn't mean anything...besides that it may or may not be able to be countered.

If you haven't noticed, the "counters" argument isn't being used anymore for anything, especially not tiers or anything like that.

So are you just stating that Garchomp is uncounterable according to that archaic definition of counter used here?

Yep, you're right...end of story?
 
One problem that I find with U-turning out of Garchomp with something like Uxie to Weavile or Mamoswine is that if they Substitute while you U-turn (what's is Uxie going to do to Chomp, HP Ice?), your switch-in is screwed unless it's something like Gliscor or Cressy that can take that one hit that it needs to to break the sub and the Ice Fang/Beam. I guess that this is just another case of "there's no absolute counter", same thing that's going on with Lucario.

Edit @ MoP: I know, if Uxie tries to U-turn, unless you run (I'm assuming) a +Atk nature and Choice Band, you're not going to break its sub, leaving Garchomp up with a sub and the ability to screw over that faster, Ice-using "counter".

Thread stuff...
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Also, since you yourself, Chrisisme, used the word "counters," I'm going to have to contest your statement.

You said Garchomp has a few near 100% counters...well your example of Cresselia cannot work, as a counter must switch in, which your Cresselia cannot do to that CBChomp. CBChomp 2HKOes your Cresselia...that isn't a near counter, it is a non counter. You would have to run 252 HP / 252 Def Bold to have a high percentage of not being 2HKOed by CB Outrage, and then you would lose the ability to OHKO Garchomp back.

Of course, as I have repeatedly stated in threads like these...there is no point in worrying about counters in DP. In fact, the definition of counter should probably be changed, as in my experiences, the most important of the current definition is the "pose immediate threat" part, not the "switch in repeatedly" part. I have a pretty high win percentage, and barely even give a damn about finding counters...instead I just look for ways to beat problem Pokemon, not stop problem Pokemon.
 
I don't understand the obsession with the current definition of counters. I've had people tell me that Umbreon and snorlax dont counter starmie or gengar since starmie can just spin on them and gengar can sleep them. More on topic, yachechomp is becoming increasingly common as a late game sweeper, as it beats vaporeon, mesprit, and starmie, or anything else that aims foe 269 spc att for the ohko. I just find that you need at least 2 ice beamers to beat it and something faster to guarentee a revenge kill, something most teams pack anyways, if only for salamence.
 
Um, I don't think you are taking Sand Veil and Yache Berry into account enough. I would say it is these two things which make Garchomp pretty much uncouterable. Too many times I've switched my Vaporeon or Swampert or something into Garchomp, had Ice Beam miss while he gets a Swords Dance or two and kills me, then sent in something faster like Weavile or Starmie only to have the Ice attack blocked by Yache Berry. The combination of these two things is really what I consider the most broken thing about Garchomp. No matter how well prepared your team is for Garchomp, he can still come out on top because of a timely miss and a Yache Berry.
 
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