I think we are splitting enormous hairs on what is "uncompetitive" at this point. Sleep is definitely uncompetitive. Paralysis is also uncompetitive. Flinching moves are also uncompetitive. Baton Pass is also uncompetitive. Quick Claw and King's Rock are also uncompetitive. Evasion boosts are also uncompetitive.
It is no question that these are are parts of the game with uncompetitive aspects. However, some of these things we ban and others we do not. What defines whether it reaches the point that it should be banned is something you can decide through our Tiering Policy framework. Specifically, a few points I want to copy from there:
A) Why is it necessary, now, to ban it? Such a big change puts an onus on the people moving to ban Sleep and remove Sleep clause to show "why this is necessary." Do you believe we cannot achieve a stable metagame with Sleep Clause and Sleep moves in place as is? Is the current metagame in a current state the only option is to ban Sleep altogether to salvage it? What is it specifically that has changed to warrant this? Is it Darkrai entering the tier?
B) Why is Sleep considered "too much" with the current sleep clause? Is there no other aspect of the meta that has similar or worse rng based aspects to it?
Personally I'll play whatever metagame is in front of me and banning Sleep wouldn't really affect me on a personal or emotional level, but I think we should still do this correctly and not jump the gun on taking action here unless we are certain that is the way we need to go. I don't really buy into the "doesn't adhere to cart" arguments though because we already do that with other stuff - if there's real change needed, it's because real change is needed with the meta, and we should demonstrate why that is.
It is no question that these are are parts of the game with uncompetitive aspects. However, some of these things we ban and others we do not. What defines whether it reaches the point that it should be banned is something you can decide through our Tiering Policy framework. Specifically, a few points I want to copy from there:
III.) The onus of providing justification is on the side changing the status quo.
...
- If a proposal is made to ban or unban a Pokemon, ability, item, or move, the side suggesting this must demonstrate why this is necessary and how it affects the ladder and the tournament scene, as well as provide evidence for both
IV.) Probability management is a part of the game.
- This means we have to accept that moves have secondary effects, that moves can miss, that moves can critical hit, and that managing all these potential probability points is a part of skill.
- This does NOT mean that we will accept every probability factor introduced to the game. Evasion, OHKO moves, and Moody all affected the outcome "too much", and we removed them.
- "Too much" is if a particular factor has the more skilled player at a disadvantage a considerable amount of the time against a less skilled player, regardless of what they do.
II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.
...
- This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, evasion, or Moody, all of which turned the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not.
A) Why is it necessary, now, to ban it? Such a big change puts an onus on the people moving to ban Sleep and remove Sleep clause to show "why this is necessary." Do you believe we cannot achieve a stable metagame with Sleep Clause and Sleep moves in place as is? Is the current metagame in a current state the only option is to ban Sleep altogether to salvage it? What is it specifically that has changed to warrant this? Is it Darkrai entering the tier?
B) Why is Sleep considered "too much" with the current sleep clause? Is there no other aspect of the meta that has similar or worse rng based aspects to it?
Personally I'll play whatever metagame is in front of me and banning Sleep wouldn't really affect me on a personal or emotional level, but I think we should still do this correctly and not jump the gun on taking action here unless we are certain that is the way we need to go. I don't really buy into the "doesn't adhere to cart" arguments though because we already do that with other stuff - if there's real change needed, it's because real change is needed with the meta, and we should demonstrate why that is.