Metagame Views From The Council

[ianlazerbeem]

IMO Waterpon suspect needs to be a priority. It has very few common checks and tbh it isn't even bad against HO. The set variety can also make it even less consistent to fight against for the filler slot.

One notable thing is also that the coverage of Grass/Water/Fairy does not have any single Tera type to even check it, which makes it even less consistent to fight. If you Tera Dragon your Skarmory or something, you are now weak to Play Rough. Tera Grass is definitely the best one to check it, but even then Play Rough is neutral.

I'm not gonna say that Waterpon sweeps entire teams for free, but it is clear that, yes, Archaludon forcing Superpower really held Waterpon back. Now its weights are off, and I think it should be the Suspect priority.

While I think the Dragons also have to go, none of them stand out as much as Waterpon IMO. Gouging can have several semi checks, Raging Bolt is usually forced to Tera to consistently stay alive, and Roaring Moon is still kind of at the borderline as of now.

Waterpon, though, is really not borderline IMO. Unless you are a Gterrain team, you have to go very far out of your way to check it and you will probably still fail/get dunked on by other sets than the SD/Play Rough (imo the best one, and the priority when checking it).

Completely agree with this sentiment, Waterpon has been a very cracked balance breaker with basically no OU counterplay and no real switch ins basically since its release and now that the one Pokémon that prevented it from running terrifying moves like Play Rough and Knock Off is gone nothing can really stop it from tearing up teams - Knock Off is especially egregious because the few Pokémon that do match relatively well into Woger, such as Band Rilla & Tera Dozo, really don't want to be Knocked - Play Rough as an option also means you can't reliably Tera into dragon to remain safe

I've seen a couple council members speak up about it, which is great, but also seen a couple priority lists from councilors where it is strangely absent - it seems like something that should be made a priority, in my eyes at least

 

[Heatranator]

While I do agree that waterpon is a great mon, I thought it would drop to UU but I was wrong lmao, I do not believe it is broken.
It can hit extremely hard, yes that is the case, but it has a decent amount of issues. It can be outsped by a decent amount of the metagame and any choice scarfers will likely outspeed it. Water+grass is an amazing combo of stabs until you run into a dragon type. Yes, it can run play rough, but that is a significant limiting factor in set diversity. It is also weak to the two most common forms of priority in rillaboom's grassy glide and raging bolt's thunderclap. Now, if bolt leaves I could see it becoming worse, but I don't think by that much. Again, don't think it is broken, just a great mon in the tier. It has severe limiting factors, but I can see why people think it is broken, as it can pull off amazing sweeps.

 

[pika pal]

While I do agree that waterpon is a great mon, I thought it would drop to UU but I was wrong lmao, I do not believe it is broken.
It can hit extremely hard, yes that is the case, but it has a decent amount of issues. It can be outsped by a decent amount of the metagame and any choice scarfers will likely outspeed it. Water+grass is an amazing combo of stabs until you run into a dragon type. Yes, it can run play rough, but that is a significant limiting factor in set diversity. It is also weak to the two most common forms of priority in rillaboom's grassy glide and raging bolt's thunderclap. Now, if bolt leaves I could see it becoming worse, but I don't think by that much. Again, don't think it is broken, just a great mon in the tier. It has severe limiting factors, but I can see why people think it is broken, as it can pull off amazing sweeps.

How do you define "vulnerable" in this case? It takes neutral damage without Teraing and shedding its Grass typing, moreso what holds it back against Raging Bolt is the non-Priority Damage, which means it can't SD safely (DP/TB + Clap will KO from full while Play Rough requires a SD boost to KO in return) unless Bolt gets Greedy and tries to CM itself. Rillaboom is more directly threatening with Glide, but Bolt can't mindlessly Priority into Ogerpon since 2 of its most common Utility moves (SD and Encore) eat Thunderclap as a course, but fold hard to simple Direct attacking (compounded by no risk of failure on a hard-switch for the Pivot sets).

I am curious what pushes Ogerpon so high priority given other things brought up like the Protosynthesis Dragons, all of which Wellspring has questionable match-ups against (Moon KO's easily with 110 BP Acrobatics without Tera, or CB U-Turn/Outrage to barrel through/grab momentum) and whose encouragement of Sun (granted Bolt can fit both Weathers) hampers it with neutered Water STAB for a neutral option into win-conditions like Gouging Fire. Beforehand it was under the radar due to Arch Rain both being more OP and patching up its otherwise best match-up against Rain, but with Rain declining there's the matter of Sun or Big Sun mons for it to worry about.

I can see how Ogerpon would be problematic in a meta like late-DLC1, but the current OU roster, I feel too many Pokemon are prominent that dampen it and/or are more pressing potential suspect subjects.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

While I do agree that waterpon is a great mon, I thought it would drop to UU but I was wrong lmao, I do not believe it is broken.
It can hit extremely hard, yes that is the case, but it has a decent amount of issues. It can be outsped by a decent amount of the metagame and any choice scarfers will likely outspeed it. Water+grass is an amazing combo of stabs until you run into a dragon type. Yes, it can run play rough, but that is a significant limiting factor in set diversity. It is also weak to the two most common forms of priority in rillaboom's grassy glide and raging bolt's thunderclap. Now, if bolt leaves I could see it becoming worse, but I don't think by that much. Again, don't think it is broken, just a great mon in the tier. It has severe limiting factors, but I can see why people think it is broken, as it can pull off amazing sweeps.

What are the severe limiting factors? What is the reliable counterplay? I would disagree that 110 base speed, 350 speed on the most common sets, is "outsped by a decent amount of the metagame" - 350 is actually pretty above-average speed; it's only really outsped by mons that serve as dedicated speed control like booster mons and the 120+ club, pretty much the whole rest of the tier is naturally outsped. "Any choice scarfer will outspeed it" is true for virtually any non booster Mon.

Needing Play Rough for Dragons is no issue since SD + 3 attacks is literally all you need to sweep due to the relatively high unboosted speed and absurd offensive power - this is its best set, but it also has the option of knock off which disrupts essentially the opposite type of Pokémon that play rough does

"I don't know if this Ogerpon is play rough or knock off" is a very difficult position to be in for this reason - and there are very few switch-ins for both.

it's weak to neither of the two priority moves you mentioned; they both require a 2hko, and thunderclap is a roll to do so and also requires prediction (hopefully it doesn't get to +6 on you!) and they are also carried by only two specific Pokémon - the choice of Rillaboom and raging bolt also borders on broken checks broken territory- it also means we see more raging bolt and Rillaboom which is not good for the tier. And if Bolt goes, of course Oger gets a buff, but this scenario you're describing has already happened. Arch's removal already has greatly empowered Ogerpon to run these more threatening moves and the impact of this is already felt on ladder.

"It has to run play rough to touch dragons," ok so that's its best set, let's evaluate it on that. What is the counterplay to that set, what switches in? What switches in and dispatches of it alone without a Terastalize? If play rough is unrevealed, what if it's knock and costs you your item? These "sophie's choices" Wellspring inspires are what make it a truly unhealthy presence, and the fact that HO matches the best (which is to say still not great) into it is why the tier is full of it

I am curious what pushes Ogerpon so high priority given other things brought up like the Protosynthesis Dragons, all of which Wellspring has questionable match-ups against (Moon KO's easily with 110 BP Acrobatics without Tera, or CB U-Turn/Outrage to barrel through/grab momentum) and whose encouragement of Sun (granted Bolt can fit both Weathers) hampers it with neutered Water STAB for a neutral option into win-conditions like Gouging Fire. Beforehand it was under the radar due to Arch Rain both being more OP and patching up its otherwise best match-up against Rain, but with Rain declining there's the matter of Sun or Big Sun mons for it to worry about.

those all have more reliable switch ins than wellspring is why, and save for raging bolt (which ONLY beats knock off variants) are more limited to certain structures

 

[RS25802580]

I think Waterpon is really good but I don’t think it’s broken.

A couple of key things hold it back.

First, it’s easy to revenge kill. This is because of Waterpon is constrained to Tera Water so there’s no threat of it changing to a different defensive type. Waterpon is outpaced by a plethora of splashable offensive mons including powerhouses like Roaring Moon, Weavile, Pult, Valiant, Meowscarada, Seperior, etc. Rillaboom is another solid check that can revenge kill with strong priority. Every team structure bar stall can fit a mon that can revenge kill Waterpon from 50%. If you’re not, then frankly that’s bad team building.

Second, the weakness to hazards is notable. Waterpon can’t fit boots and is this easily chipped. This doesn’t make Waterpon okay by itself but is something that must be considered.

Third, even for fat teams that don’t pack a revenge killer, there IS reliable defensive counterplay in Tera Grass Dozo and Tera Grass Skarm. Burning a tera is not ideal but that’s the trade off of being too passive.

TLDR: Waterpon is strong but ultimately balanced, it’s chipped by hazards and not difficult to revenge kill due to Tera predictability.

 

[Heatranator]

What are the severe limiting factors? What is the reliable counterplay? I would disagree that 110 base speed, 350 speed on the most common sets, is "outsped by a decent amount of the metagame" - 350 is actually pretty above-average speed; it's only really outsped by mons that serve as dedicated speed control like booster mons and the 120+ club, pretty much the whole rest of the tier is naturally outsped. "Any choice scarfer will outspeed it" is true for virtually any non booster Mon.

Needing Play Rough for Dragons is no issue since SD + 3 attacks is literally all you need to sweep due to the relatively high unboosted speed and absurd offensive power - this is its best set, but it also has the option of knock off which disrupts essentially the opposite type of Pokémon that play rough does

"I don't know if this Ogerpon is play rough or knock off" is a very difficult position to be in for this reason - and there are very few switch-ins for both.

it's weak to neither of the two priority moves you mentioned; they both require a 2hko, and thunderclap is a roll to do so and also requires prediction (hopefully it doesn't get to +6 on you!) and they are also carried by only two specific Pokémon - the choice of Rillaboom and raging bolt also borders on broken checks broken territory- it also means we see more raging bolt and Rillaboom which is not good for the tier. And if Bolt goes, of course Oger gets a buff, but this scenario you're describing has already happened. Arch's removal already has greatly empowered Ogerpon to run these more threatening moves and the impact of this is already felt on ladder.

"It has to run play rough to touch dragons," ok so that's its best set, let's evaluate it on that. What is the counterplay to that set, what switches in? What switches in and dispatches of it alone without a Terastalize? If play rough is unrevealed, what if it's knock and costs you your item? These "sophie's choices" Wellspring inspires are what make it a truly unhealthy presence, and the fact that HO matches the best (which is to say still not great) into it is why the tier is full of it



those all have more reliable switch ins than wellspring is why, and save for raging bolt (which ONLY beats knock off variants) are more limited to certain structures

Saying it has "severe" limiting factors was exaggeration, sorry about that.
The reason why I highly emphasised the speed issue is because 350 speed, while amazing, is outsped by a lot of mons in the tier. The choice scarf thing is huge because it is outsped by +252 scarf mon with a speed stat of 59. So, discounting the scarf mons, what are the OU mons that can outspeed waterpon?
Serperior, Iron Valiant (even without booster), Roaring Moon, Cinderace, Meowscarada, Iron Boulder, Weavile, Darkrai, Zamazenta, Dragapult and Deoxys Speed. Didn't count barra as it will likely fall in usage.
11 mons outspeed it. Naturally. Usually, this wouldn't be too much of an issue. Why? Well because they can use scarf to outspeed many of these mons. Waterpon can't do that. If you outspeed it naturally, unless you are using it on a sticky webs team, you outspeed it. It is fast, but not fast enough in this meta. Due to the extremely fast pace of this meta, it requires you have either a fast scarfer/booster mon, or a insanely fast mon naturally. That means waterpon is going to be outsped and hit hard, which makes it vulnerable to priority.
Play rough's coverage is great, I said that in my original post. However, most dragons can take a play rough and fire back a hit, except for moon and dragapult, one being x4 weak to dragon and the other being frail, but both can outspeed it.
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 242-286 (70.7 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Wake is the most physically frail of the dragons besides the examples, and can fire back with a draco after the hit.
If waterpon is running knock off, then the issue of scarfers does become less prevelant, but that means the dragons have an easier time against it, they can take its hits and fire back extremely powerful hits.
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 132-156 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Of course, if it is +2, then they can't do too much to it as it is too strong. That's when waterpon is scary. But that's a difficult position to get into when you are threatened by a revenge kill easily.
I forgot you thought rillaboom is broken. Let's just avoid that discussion and talk about the calcs. Rillaboom's grassy glide does 73% minimum, while power whip does max 54%. I would say that a priority move 2 hit ko'ing while the opponent can't ko you back is fair to say that the mon is weak to the priority no? Raging bolt, while potentially broken, is still an issue for waterpon. Play rough does max 68% to bolt while thunderclap is a 2hit ko. That means it can't switch into play rough, but anything else and it is going to ko it back. Waterpon can technically tech encore for this, but it loses either a coverage move or sd, which is a massive downgrade.
Saying the tier is HO because of waterpon is a massive exaggeration. The reason why HO is so prevelant is because of multiple mons, not just waterpon. That is probably like 7th or so on the list of mons that account for the reason why HO is prevelant.
I'm not saying that waterpon is a bad mon, it is great. But there are factors that limit it. I can understand why you think it is broken, but in practice it can fall flat.

 

[veti]

Tera Blast shouldn't be touched.

Banned Users ​

To look at it's previous abusers that got banned for Tera Blast, Regieleki would be a matchup fish that does nothing into a team with any Ground besides Great Tusk or a Raging Bolt but completely dominates mono Tusk teams without Bolt. Espathra doesn't need Tera Blast, it gets by just fine with Dazzling Gleam. Overall, adding either back to the meta, even without Tera Blast, would add nothing to the tier besides extreme matchup fish Pokemon while the playerbase is already complaining about the meta having too many matchup fishes. (Leki is a spinner... That gets hard walled by the best hazard setters. Such an amazing spinner.)

Common users of Tera Blast​

The current relevant Tera Blast users in OU based on stats are Volcarona, Kyurem, Enamorus, and Serperior, with Skeledirge, Excadrill, Lando-T, and Dragapult all having 9-6% usage additionally. Every Pokemon except Volcarona and Kyurem being unhealthy or banworthy is a very laughable idea. This leaves 2 Pokemon that even have arguments to be unhealthy in the tier that use Tera Blast commonly, while Kyurem doesn't even run it on Choice Specs and Special/Special Biased Boots sets. Additionally, while Enamorus and Serperior have high usage of Tera Blast, Serperior is barely hanging on to OU while more and more people are dropping Tera Blast on Enamorus. I don't think Volcarona is broken, as we have plenty of priority, unaware and booster energy mons to deal with it, I think Volcarona does have an unhealthy effect on the meta with Flame Body, but that is an issue regardless of if we ban Tera Blast or not. Using 1825 stats, Tera Blast has lower or approximately the same usage as 1695 on every relevant mon, outside of Iron Moth which has a notable increase of usage however is both not broken and only higher usage because of the low sample size. Every other OU Pokemon, including Kingambit don't even show up on the stats. The complaints about them being common are just negativity bias, people remembering the few games where a niche Tera Blast was brought and beat them without considering all the other games where it was not.

Tiering Policy ​

This section is self explanatory, using tiering policy to defend Tera Blast. An argument I'd like to address is everything along the lines of "it (Tera Blast) adds nothing to the meta". The side changing the status quo needs to prove that something is an actual issue, "adding nothing to the tier" isn't an issue else we'd ban shit like Polteageist and Indeedee. Other arguments like "Ban Tera Blast to prove that its Tera thats the issue" that don't prove anything about Tera Blast being problematic are also irrelevant for the same reason and not worth entertaining. Moving on to defend Tera Blast, Tera Blast has only gotten 2 Pokemon banned from OU, one of which is Volcarona which has since been unbanned and became balanced. Even if we are generous and still include Volcarona as still broken and Espathra as exclusively because of Tera Blast, it is a move on every Pokemon that has broken only three Pokemon, one of which no longer being broken. Additionally, we have 15 (more if you count shed tail and last respects users effectively being banned) other Pokemon where Tera Blast played no role in them being broken. Last Respects and Shed Tail were only banned because they were broken on every user (even if imo the mons should've been banned instead), so why should Tera Blast be banned and not the broken abusers (which are all already banned anyways)?

 

[Komodo_Drogo]

Saying it has "severe" limiting factors was exaggeration, sorry about that.
The reason why I highly emphasised the speed issue is because 350 speed, while amazing, is outsped by a lot of mons in the tier. The choice scarf thing is huge because it is outsped by +252 scarf mon with a speed stat of 59. So, discounting the scarf mons, what are the OU mons that can outspeed waterpon?
Serperior, Iron Valiant (even without booster), Roaring Moon, Cinderace, Meowscarada, Iron Boulder, Weavile, Darkrai, Zamazenta, Dragapult and Deoxys Speed. Didn't count barra as it will likely fall in usage.
11 mons outspeed it. Naturally. Usually, this wouldn't be too much of an issue. Why? Well because they can use scarf to outspeed many of these mons. Waterpon can't do that. If you outspeed it naturally, unless you are using it on a sticky webs team, you outspeed it. It is fast, but not fast enough in this meta. Due to the extremely fast pace of this meta, it requires you have either a fast scarfer/booster mon, or a insanely fast mon naturally. That means waterpon is going to be outsped and hit hard, which makes it vulnerable to priority.
Play rough's coverage is great, I said that in my original post. However, most dragons can take a play rough and fire back a hit, except for moon and dragapult, one being x4 weak to dragon and the other being frail, but both can outspeed it.
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 242-286 (70.7 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Wake is the most physically frail of the dragons besides the examples, and can fire back with a draco after the hit.
If waterpon is running knock off, then the issue of scarfers does become less prevelant, but that means the dragons have an easier time against it, they can take its hits and fire back extremely powerful hits.
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 132-156 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Of course, if it is +2, then they can't do too much to it as it is too strong. That's when waterpon is scary. But that's a difficult position to get into when you are threatened by a revenge kill easily.
I forgot you thought rillaboom is broken. Let's just avoid that discussion and talk about the calcs. Rillaboom's grassy glide does 73% minimum, while power whip does max 54%. I would say that a priority move 2 hit ko'ing while the opponent can't ko you back is fair to say that the mon is weak to the priority no? Raging bolt, while potentially broken, is still an issue for waterpon. Play rough does max 68% to bolt while thunderclap is a 2hit ko. That means it can't switch into play rough, but anything else and it is going to ko it back. Waterpon can technically tech encore for this, but it loses either a coverage move or sd, which is a massive downgrade.
Saying the tier is HO because of waterpon is a massive exaggeration. The reason why HO is so prevelant is because of multiple mons, not just waterpon. That is probably like 7th or so on the list of mons that account for the reason why HO is prevelant.
I'm not saying that waterpon is a bad mon, it is great. But there are factors that limit it. I can understand why you think it is broken, but in practice it can fall flat.

What mons are legitimately running Scarf currently? As an item, it's been eclipsed by booster energy + paradox Mon's. There's very few mons who would use it currently, especially considering potential teras to punish the choice lock. This leaves ogerpon in reality quite fast comparatively, outspeeding a lot of the tier naturally.

The other thing is the idea that teams have to consider mainly an offensive option to deal with it, which a good portion don't like switching into ogerpon in the first place. So you're put into a position where your offensive mons have to switch into ogerpon to deal with it otherwise you potentially lose more.

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom in Grassy Terrain: 156-185 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

Ogerpon doesn't have to stay in here most likely, it just waits for an opportunity to come in and Finish off rilla. Grassy is a solid answer to it, but there's more at play than just glide into it.

Ogerpon is strong, almost overwhelmingly into slower teams, as there's not many switchins to its stab combination and coverage, while also being able to punish some options with encore or sd. I don't think it's priority, as I'd like moon dealt with first personally, but there's limited checks, and there needs to be more than using another offensive presence to keep it in check. If teams are being forced to use Tera to answer it, that's indicative of an issue imo.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

i personally haven't had many issues with waterpon lately, probably because of several new additions outspeeding her and severely threatening her and because of the sheer glut of dragon-types the tier has, but i'm not opposed to action on her because i'm still salty we never got around to it in dlc1 rain is an incredibly dominant playstyle even with arch gone and we really should be chipping away at both it and sun in any way we can—the less dominant weather is, the less matchup-fishy the tier gets

 

[quacc]

I don't see how people say that Waterpon is easy to revenge kill, any common boots mon on balance can't even kill it. It deals an unfair amount of damage and even gets moves to punish passive play, which is what you kinda have to do against a mon this strong and this surprisingly fast. 110 speed sure as hell is not slow for this metagame, it's not speed control numbers or anything but you outspeed lots of strong mons like Wake out of sun (or in sun if it's booster spa) and Enamorus. This leaves us with around 15 possible mons to revenge kill with. Yes, scarf mons exist, but It'll be clear in a moment that does not matter. Anyways, here is the list:

Maushold
Iron Valiant
Hawlucha
Roaring Moon
Cinderace
Tornadus-Therian
Greninja
Meowscarada
Iron Boulder
Weavile
Darkrai
Barraskewda
Zamazenta
Dragapult
Deoxys-Speed

Immediately, we can cross out Hawlucha and Barraskewda because these are dependent on factors such as weather and terrain, or else they just flat out aren't good. Barraskewda even hates matching up against Waterpon in the first place, which really rubs salt in the wound. Now, we can eliminate the following for not being able to actually kill or at least cripple Waterpon: Iron Valiant, Greninja, Iron Boulder, Weavile, and Deoxys-Speed. This leaves us with the following list:

Maushold
Roaring Moon
Cinderace
Tornadus-Therian
Meowscarda
Darkrai
Zamazenta
Dragapult

Maushold is really hard to fit on a team, and so is Tornadus-Therian for that matter, so I won't be mentioning these two again, but the big issue is that it's hard to fit 2 forms of speed control unless you're playing offense.

We also should factor in tera. Tera allows for some of these mons to get bypassed, and that's especially annoying on a mon like Waterpon, where you genuinely only have one or two speed control options on balance, and if it just dies, you have to take a big hit on some of your best physical walls like Skarmory, crippling it severely (or flat out dying if it SD'd on something passive). For reference, here is a calc that is applicable to balance teams:

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Skarmory: 298-352 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

It's what everyone likes to call a "rocks calc," and while you could argue you could just terastallize to beat it defensively, your opponent will inherently benefit more from teraing than you because of how your Skarmory is now taking spikes, has taken a lot of chip for other breakers, and that it has a new set of weaknesses that can be exploited.

Let's also look at what these speed control options even do to Waterpon.

Cinderace can basically only click wisp, it can u-turn to try and chip it down, but then you'll take a big hit somewhere else.

Meowscarada does the same thing really, so it's an even worse option.

Darkrai sludge bombs with rocks support, but if this is what you use to revenge kill, a tera will just break past your team. You also can wisp and that's probably the best option here.

Zamazenta forces it out once, but the second time your Zamazenta is weakened.

Dragapult just clicks wisp, specs Pult is okay but also faces the tera water thing.

Scarf mons? They don't deal enough damage for the most part.

From here, all I really see is that wisp is the major counterplay, which can be unreliable in a lot of cases.

Now, priority moves are the other option, and good options exist, but unfortunately they're mostly present on the archetype that matches up best into Waterpon in the first place. Kingambit (if boosted), Raging Bolt (if booster energy and Waterpon is weakened), and Dragonite (not super common but good mon for sure) are the main priority moves you will see. Weavile also exists, so does vacuum wave mons, but those aren't dealing real damage to Waterpon and you really are only going to get the benefits of these revenge killing Waterpon on offense structures where you can dent Waterpon considerably.

I will admit that Waterpon is good against sun teams and can be a valuable check, and while that may have been true in DLC 1, I'd say that form of utility is a lot more humbled with all the new dragons. You can run play rough, but you don't hit Gouging Fire for super effective. There are also other answers to sun and most of the issues with sun right now can be associated with the debatably broken mons on it. This sort of takes away anything that it does positive for the metagame.

Also, ivy cudgel has a high crit rate. Really annoying and dumb because 1 in 8 happens a lot; that's only a little less likely than a wisp miss (2.5% less likely). Whyyyyy

 

[veti]

rain is an incredibly dominant playstyle even with arch gone and we really should be chipping away at both it and sun in any way we can—the less dominant weather is, the less matchup-fishy the tier gets

Is Ogerpon Wellspring really a good target for nerfing rain? It's even worse for rain to face than use, while I don't support a ban on anything on rain for now I think Pelipper, Drizzle, Swift Swim, Damp Rock, or Barraskewda would be better because Wellspring ban would probably benefit rain if anything.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Is Ogerpon Wellspring really a good target for nerfing rain? It's even worse for rain to face than use, while I don't support a ban on anything on rain for now I think Pelipper, Drizzle, Swift Swim, Damp Rock, or Barraskewda would be better because Wellspring ban would probably benefit rain if anything.

(shh, i'm trying to systematically remove all the rain checks to get drizzle banned so we can drop arch and i can use its cool non-cheater sets instead of the bullshit broken one, don't blow this for me)

 

[RS25802580]

I don't see how people say that Waterpon is easy to revenge kill, any common boots mon on balance can't even kill it. It deals an unfair amount of damage and even gets moves to punish passive play, which is what you kinda have to do against a mon this strong and this surprisingly fast. 110 speed sure as hell is not slow for this metagame, it's not speed control numbers or anything but you outspeed lots of strong mons like Wake out of sun (or in sun if it's booster spa) and Enamorus. This leaves us with around 15 possible mons to revenge kill with. Yes, scarf mons exist, but It'll be clear in a moment that does not matter. Anyways, here is the list:

Maushold
Iron Valiant
Hawlucha
Roaring Moon
Cinderace
Tornadus-Therian
Greninja
Meowscarada
Iron Boulder
Weavile
Darkrai
Barraskewda
Zamazenta
Dragapult
Deoxys-Speed

Immediately, we can cross out Hawlucha and Barraskewda because these are dependent on factors such as weather and terrain, or else they just flat out aren't good. Barraskewda even hates matching up against Waterpon in the first place, which really rubs salt in the wound. Now, we can eliminate the following for not being able to actually kill or at least cripple Waterpon: Iron Valiant, Greninja, Iron Boulder, Weavile, and Deoxys-Speed. This leaves us with the following list:

Maushold
Roaring Moon
Cinderace
Tornadus-Therian
Meowscarda
Darkrai
Zamazenta
Dragapult

Maushold is really hard to fit on a team, and so is Tornadus-Therian for that matter, so I won't be mentioning these two again, but the big issue is that it's hard to fit 2 forms of speed control unless you're playing offense.

We also should factor in tera. Tera allows for some of these mons to get bypassed, and that's especially annoying on a mon like Waterpon, where you genuinely only have one or two speed control options on balance, and if it just dies, you have to take a big hit on some of your best physical walls like Skarmory, crippling it severely (or flat out dying if it SD'd on something passive). For reference, here is a calc that is applicable to balance teams:

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Skarmory: 298-352 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

It's what everyone likes to call a "rocks calc," and while you could argue you could just terastallize to beat it defensively, your opponent will inherently benefit more from teraing than you because of how your Skarmory is now taking spikes, has taken a lot of chip for other breakers, and that it has a new set of weaknesses that can be exploited.

Let's also look at what these speed control options even do to Waterpon.

Cinderace can basically only click wisp, it can u-turn to try and chip it down, but then you'll take a big hit somewhere else.

Meowscarada does the same thing really, so it's an even worse option.

Darkrai sludge bombs with rocks support, but if this is what you use to revenge kill, a tera will just break past your team. You also can wisp and that's probably the best option here.

Zamazenta forces it out once, but the second time your Zamazenta is weakened.

Dragapult just clicks wisp, specs Pult is okay but also faces the tera water thing.

Scarf mons? They don't deal enough damage for the most part.

From here, all I really see is that wisp is the major counterplay, which can be unreliable in a lot of cases.

Now, priority moves are the other option, and good options exist, but unfortunately they're mostly present on the archetype that matches up best into Waterpon in the first place. Kingambit (if boosted), Raging Bolt (if booster energy and Waterpon is weakened), and Dragonite (not super common but good mon for sure) are the main priority moves you will see. Weavile also exists, so does vacuum wave mons, but those aren't dealing real damage to Waterpon and you really are only going to get the benefits of these revenge killing Waterpon on offense structures where you can dent Waterpon considerably.

I will admit that Waterpon is good against sun teams and can be a valuable check, and while that may have been true in DLC 1, I'd say that form of utility is a lot more humbled with all the new dragons. You can run play rough, but you don't hit Gouging Fire for super effective. There are also other answers to sun and most of the issues with sun right now can be associated with the debatably broken mons on it. This sort of takes away anything that it does positive for the metagame.

Also, ivy cudgel has a high crit rate. Really annoying and dumb because 1 in 8 happens a lot; that's only a little less likely than a wisp miss (2.5% less likely). Whyyyyy

A revenge killer doesn’t have to be able to OHKO Waterpon, it just needs to do sufficient damage to kill a chipped Waterpon. I’m not gonna go through your list mon by mon but it is clear to me that several of the mons you’re discounting are effective revenge killers.

252 Atk Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring on a critical hit: 177-208 (58.8 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 228-268 (75.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You also could stand to mention Serperior and Rillaboom.

While it’s all well and good to make a list of fast mons and say “these lose to a +2 Waterpon in a vacuum”, this argument does not address how it is to deal with Waterpon in the actual flow of the gameplay. Waterpon will be taking a hit if it tries to set up, which does put it into revenge killing range for many common mons. Furthermore hazards make it easier to chip.

While I’m on the fence about Waterpon, I do think that a lot of the on-paper arguments I’ve been seeing (especially these “read down a list” type arguments) don’t translate well to how the game actually plays out.

 

[658Greninja]

I am glad Ogerpon-W is in discussion for a suspect, because this is the first time imo where Wogre is looking to be a problem despite all the new dragons ironically.

Just gonna say this rn, but this right here, is the only consistent counter to Ogerpon-W without needing to Tera Grass.

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Fairy/Steel/Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 24 SpA / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Glare
- Synthesis
- Substitute

Serp is almost perfect in its role. It outspeeds it, always 2HKOs with Leaf Storm. Doesn’t get 2HKOd by an unboosted Tera Ivy after rocks and lives an SD boosted one after rocks. It also threatens with Glare and can heal up via Synthesis.

Everything else either dies to +2 Cudgel/Whip or Play Rough after rocks, or needs to be in specific conditions to check it (Ex: Rilla needs to Tera Grass to OHKO Ogerpon). I wanna go over why I’m interested in suspecting it in the future.

No. 1 Ogerpon Itself

Off its stats, 120 Atk and 110 Speed does not seem overwhelming. However Game Freak in their infinite wisdom, decided it wasn’t enough. So for some reason, they gave all the masks a 1.2x attack boost, which makes Ogerpon’s decent 120 Attack to be higher than fucking base 147 Attack. Higher than Roaring Moon, Lando, and Ursaluna. Then they decided to give it all the coverage it would want. Play Rough, Low Kick, Superpower, Knock Off, Zen Headbutt. So you have a mon with a good defensive typing, 110 Speed, over 140 base Attack, great coverage, and Swords Dance.

No. 2 The Meta Itself

The biggest reason why Ogerpon wasn’t broken in DLC1 is because of one funky fungus, i.e Amoonguss. Even though it had Zen Headbutt to target it, the move wasn’t worth running because then it’d miss the opportunity to hit the Dragons with Play Rough, or more relevantly, check Manaphy with Encore. Because of how dangerous Manaphy was back then, Ogerpon often needed to run Encore, because Manaphy would often Tera Poison or Tera Grass right in its face.

Fast forward to DLC2 and it seemed like it was Overpon. More dragons, more problems. However fast forward to now and Archaludon is banned, Sleep is banned so no more Amoonguss, and Manaphy is now a niche pick. Ogerpon now has no reason not to simply run Play Rough. You OHKO every Dragon in the tier at +2 after rocks besides Dragonite.

No 3. No Bitches Bulky Grass Types

You know what this meta needed, Ferrothorn. Ok, I know we don’t need another hazard setter, but it is also a fantastic defensive glue that holds together the metagames it was in. Yeah Ogerpon could punt it with Low Kick, but that’s the point. Play Rough becomes harder to splash on it and the Dragons now become better checks to it. Hell, Ferro would’ve helped with other shit in the tier like Roaring Moon or even Raging Bolt, and yes, it learns Toxic via Egg Movies for some fucked up reason. Or how bout another bulky Grass type that Game Freak thanos snapped, Tangrowth. The big reason Ogerpon is a problem is because there is nothing forcing it to not run Play Rough, and there is a shocking absence of bulky grass types. The ones we do have are fringe at best. Actually we do have a bulky Grass type, Hydrapple, but guess what, that shit gets OHKOd by +2 Play Rough without max physd investment, and all it could do back is Dragon Tail it.

So yeah, Oger is shaping up to be a problem, but there are arguments for keeping it.

Counterargument No. 1: Can’t run Boots.

Since Oger can’t run Boots, it is vulnerable to being chipped down, and if you could limit the amount of switch ins it gets, Ogerpon could be put in range for a possible KO.

Counterargument No. 2: The Speed Tier Vs The General Metagame/Other Checks

It has a solid speed tier, but it still gets outsped by several common offensive threats, most of which can threaten a kill vs it after some chip which is plausible in this meta. More faster threats popped up in DLC2 such as Weavile, Serperior, Meow, and Roaring Moon. Dragapult and Zama still remain solid checks to it. The former can burn it while the latter has the bulk to tank 1 or 2 Ivy Cudgels.

Counterargument No. 3: Not a Snowballer

Ogerpon is mainly a wallbreaker. It doesn’t aim to 6-0 entire teams like DD Moon. That doesn’t absent Ogerpon from a future suspect, or any threat, but imo it is not the biggest issue rn.

I think there are more pressing issues in the meta rn.

(Also hot take, but out of all these monsters, Raging Bolt is the one that doesn’t strike me as broken, but I’ll explain that another day.)

Ogerpon still has plenty of room to be explored. Spreads like 180HP/192ATK/136SPED which still outruns Kyurem but lets you live a Tera Grass Gglide and OHKO it back with Power Whip.

 

[quacc]

A revenge killer doesn’t have to be able to OHKO Waterpon, it just needs to do sufficient damage to kill a chipped Waterpon. I’m not gonna go through your list mon by mon but it is clear to me that several of the mons you’re discounting are effective revenge killers.

252 Atk Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring on a critical hit: 177-208 (58.8 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 228-268 (75.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You also could stand to mention Serperior and Rillaboom.

While it’s all well and good to make a list of fast mons and say “these lose to a +2 Waterpon in a vacuum”, this argument does not address how it is to deal with Waterpon in the actual flow of the gameplay. Waterpon will be taking a hit if it tries to set up, which does put it into revenge killing range for many common mons. Furthermore hazards make it easier to chip.

While I’m on the fence about Waterpon, I do think that a lot of the on-paper arguments I’ve been seeing (especially these “read down a list” type arguments) don’t translate well to how the game actually plays out.

This only applies to a HO type justification where you have multiple speed supports. On balance, you really only have one or two speed options maximum. My point still stands because I mentioned that Waterpon isn't that great against offense in the first place and is super strong against balance. In this case, not OHKOing is a very big deal because it'll proceed to dent your team later on, force a tera, or flat out win.

 

[SittinGamer]

While it obviously cannot be on EVERY team, Meowscarada is a wonderful balance option for speed control, pivoting, knocking, and choosing two of the following: unique grass stab, its wide coverage movepool, and priority. I've been running Expert Belt with a Fire Tera to avoid flame body and u-turn trounces Waterpon.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

While it obviously cannot be on EVERY team, Meowscarada is a wonderful balance option for speed control, pivoting, knocking, and choosing two of the following: unique grass stab, its wide coverage movepool, and priority. I've been running Expert Belt with a Fire Tera to avoid flame body and u-turn trounces Waterpon.

Meowscarada is not inherintly fast enough to serve as real speed control, 379 is extremely underwhelming in a meta dominated by Weavile, Pult, zama, and booster mons, and its priority is again prediction reliant. it can be a decent semi fast pivot and is certainly not a bad Mon but already dropped in the last viability shift and despite its popularity on ladder is highly outclassed in most of its potential roles - its a good Pon answer but is very subpar vs the rest of the meta, currently possibly one of the most overrated Pokémon in the tier. And it is NOT speed control

 

[SittinGamer]

Meowscarada is not inherintly fast enough to serve as real speed control, 383 is extremely underwhelming in a meta dominated by Weavile, Pult, zama, and booster mons, and its priority is again prediction reliant. it can be a decent semi fast pivot and is certainly not a bad Mon but already dropped in the last viability shift and despite its popularity on ladder is highly outclassed in most of its potential roles - its a good Pon answer but is very subpar vs the rest of the meta, currently possibly one of the most overrated Pokémon in the tier. And it is NOT speed control

Going from A+ to A- is notable, but not like the meta changed so drastically that it is in a bad place. I won't bat for it being top tier or anything, but the discussion was at least partially about how hard it is to slot Waterpon answers on non-HO, and a fast pivot with stab U-Turn that outspeeds all but a handful of non boosted mons, Wogre included, and features nice role compression seems worthy of mention, as others have in their speed tiers.

Edit: I am also sorry to say that Meow is not 383 but 379, crucially not outstanding Darkrai and Weavile :pensivewobble:

 

[njnp]

I appreciate all the replies, I will be closing the thread in under 24hrs once again as it seems the conversation has run its course. If anyone has any closing thoughts until the next council member feels the need to speak, make them be heard

 

[there is only so much one can do with a username]

Going from A+ to A- is notable, but not like the meta changed so drastically that it is in a bad place. I won't bat for it being top tier or anything, but the discussion was at least partially about how hard it is to slot Waterpon answers on non-HO, and a fast pivot with stab U-Turn that outspeeds all but a handful of non boosted mons, Wogre included, and features nice role compression seems worthy of mention, as others have in their speed tiers.

Edit: I am also sorry to say that Meow is not 383 but 379, crucially not outstanding Darkrai and Weavile :pensivewobble:

It hasn't been seen in spl once and semi-stall type structures that like it are not popular. Its certainly good but a surprisingly awkward speed tier and reliance on the protean boost on boots sets make it hard to justify over weavile for TA+knock spam on BO structures and lack of set-up+consistent stab or locking itself into a move on is not great on HO structures warrant its drop imo. Its still great in the tier with a solid speed tier + great coverage but the nerf to protean is really hurting it rn. B+ makes sense even because all the A- mons do better vs the dragons in the meta rn. Its very restircted by the currently popular structures and revenge killing it or forcing it out is pretty easy once it swaps types.

 

[Magcargo]

Some late night ramblings that I'm probably gonna regret by morning lol

After a rough playing session today, trying to mix & match different styles, I am finding the current meta to be extremely annoying. Shiest picks certainly can work, and I don't think the metagame is lacking variety, but game ending states feel like they can occur extremely easily at any point in the match, whether it be due to Tera, infinite Hazard spam + Knock Off, Para fishing, misses, crits, etc. Covering for everything is impossible, which is generally fine, but the volatility of the current metagame still feels extremely high, on both sides of the spectrum. The current hazard state is in a laughably bad state due to the extreme imbalance in the quality of setters vs the removers, so much so that Knock Off by extension becomes a broken attack due to removing the only veil of protection, HDB, between slowly getting whittled away by hazards. Paraspam is at an all time high & due to the power level, is key in producing nearly unwinnable game states vs both offense and defense. The amount of threats able to spiral out of control at the drop of a hat or after 1 free turn of setup is too high & amplifiers like weather certain do no favors.

If we are seriously considering unbanning any ubers (which I doubt we are) the only Uber I would want unbanned at this time is Terapagos. Its a queen piece that would find a place on multiple teamstyles, primarily defensive styles, would provide crucial Rapid Spin support, & would be the best reactive check to other Terastalized Pokemon such as Kingambit or Gouging Fire. Its ability to nullify weather completely would be appreciated at this time. That being said, we've already been through the song and dance of Terapagos being centralizing so perhaps this shouldn't be the way forward. Sets like Choice Specs also weren't explored too much when Terapagos was allowed, so it may be even more broken than we initially suspected.

Some attacks I would like to see action take on are Spikes and / or Knock Off as I believe they are too centralizing to the game, to an absurdly unhealthy degree. We are blessed with Heavy-Duty Boots this generation, but getting Knocked off is basically a death sentence to anything that isn't Gliscor or Clefable. And our Spikers have an absurdly easy time setting up layers after layer with no issues. The hazard removal this generation is just extremely flawed, espicially when our best removers are also being tasked to handle other big threats like Kingambit or Raging Bolt. Again, not an area I expect to see action in, but as long as chips are on the table, I am hoping some or any action is taken to make hazards less centralizing to the game.

 

[Heatranator]

Some late night ramblings that I'm probably gonna regret by morning lol

After a rough playing session today, trying to mix & match different styles, I am finding the current meta to be extremely annoying. Shiest picks certainly can work, and I don't think the metagame is lacking variety, but game ending states feel like they can occur extremely easily at any point in the match, whether it be due to Tera, infinite Hazard spam + Knock Off, Para fishing, misses, crits, etc. Covering for everything is impossible, which is generally fine, but the volatility of the current metagame still feels extremely high, on both sides of the spectrum. The current hazard state is in a laughably bad state due to the extreme imbalance in the quality of setters vs the removers, so much so that Knock Off by extension becomes a broken attack due to removing the only veil of protection, HDB, between slowly getting whittled away by hazards. Paraspam is at an all time high & due to the power level, is key in producing nearly unwinnable game states vs both offense and defense. The amount of threats able to spiral out of control at the drop of a hat or after 1 free turn of setup is too high & amplifiers like weather certain do no favors.

If we are seriously considering unabanning any ubers (which I doubt we are) the only Uber I would want unbanned at this time is Terapagos. Its a queen piece that would find a place on multiple teamstyles, primarily defensive styles, would provide crucial Rapid Spin support, & would be the best reactive check to other Terastalized Pokemon such as Kingambit or Gouging Fire. Its ability to nullify weather completely would be appreciated at this time. That being said, we've already been through the song and dance of Terapagos being centralizing so perhaps this shouldn't be the way forward. Sets like Choice Specs also weren't explored too much when Terapagos was allowed, so it may be even more broken than we initially suspected.

Some attacks I would like to see action take on are Spikes and / or Knock Off as I believe they are too centralizing to the game, to an absurdly unhealthy degree. We are blessed with Heavy-Duty Boots this generation, but getting Knocked off is basically a death sentence to anything that isn't Gliscor or Clefable. And our Spikers have an absurdly easy time setting up layers after layer with no issues. The hazard removal this generation is just extremely flawed, espicially when our best removers are also being tasked to handle other big threats like Kingambit or Raging Bolt. Again, not an area I expect to see action in, but as long as chips are on the table, I am hoping some or any action is taken to make hazards less centralizing to the game.

Remember when spikes was a fairly elusive tool and having them was something that made you consider a mon all on its own unless you were a shit mon such as delibird (it got its revenge this game).
After Magcargo talked about Paraspam, I kinda thought about it and it kinda is prevelant. Serperior, Hatterene, Clefable, Dragapult, Gholdengo and even Zapdos all use Para to great effect. Sometimes games can be won on its own. I think the peak of this strategy is Serperior. Now, this mon without para is fine, a great offensive mon with decent defensive utility, but with para it can be bs. It can beat it's checks easily with a few para hax, and trust me it can, I have beaten volcaronas with serperior with tera'ing or needing a coverage move. I think this is due to the highly offensive metagame right now which makes para a lot more impactful, that's just the nature of it I think.
I disagree with banning terapagos unless we ban tera, that thing is way too powerful to be in the tier that its utility would be overlooked. Something that I would like to mention is regieleki. Now, in its current state, regieleki SHOULD NOT BE UNBANNED. However, I think if we ban tera blast, something I think will have no negative repreccusions, it would definetely be good for the tier. It is a rapid spinner that is fast and can threaten opponents hard, which is sorely needed. I know this will most likely not happen, but I think if the course of action should be taken, then banning tera blast to at the very least allow regieleki in the tier would be good.
Lastly, I think that acting on spikes/knock off, while having good intentions, would be a negative for the tier. One thing I believe keeping a lot of mons in check is their susceptability to hazards, that is most of the reason why kyurem wasn't banned. Volcarona would not have to worry about hazards as much because it is not fearful of getting its boots knocked off. This would just exacerbate already powerful threats and push them over the edge. It is both a postive and negative tool for the metagame. Maybe ghold could be looked at as while it wouldn't lead to defoggers becoming insanely better, it would help a bit.
I think at the end of the day, we might just have to deal with the hazards situation as is, I agree with most of magcargo's post and it may just be in our best interest to decrease the power level of the meta to make sure mistakes are not punished as much. This would be by continuing to ban mons that are problematic. These for me would include: Kingambit, Kyurem, Raging Bolt and Roaring Moon. I also wouldn't be opposed to ghold, Gouging Fire, Waterpon or Volcarona going, though I do not find them as problematic.

 

[Tio Chico]

Final notes;
I believe the priorities should be Gouging Fire, Raging Bolt and Roaring Moon. The topic discussion appears to be enough to support the tierization work with these 3.
After that, it's hard to predict the metagame but it's even harder for Waterpon to get worse with possibly 3 dragons out on the threat list.
With less competition, Kyurem may even be revisited.
And only then, things like Gholdengo can return to the debate table, but until then, a lot will happen.

TL;DR; : Suspect or even QB; incredibly bulky and oppressive, with at least 3 variants that destroy different archetypes with little interaction between players.
Suspect; Still something to explore, but it's very flexible in Sun, Rain or even no weather.
Suspect or QB; We know what he's going to do and we still don't have a solid counterplay. The least controversial I imagine, perhaps it would be easier to deal with first but personally I prefer it last.

I don't see the need for a survey before dealing with these 3. Unless the survey only asks for the order of these 3.
Taking a survey asking if people are satisfied with the metagame seems like wasting time with a rhetorical question.
Thank you council for the work and space for discussion.

 

[658Greninja]

These are the Pokemon often cited as problematic in the tier, a total of 9. Some of these I don’t see being a problem, some not rn but maybe in the future, and some that should be looked at as soon as possible. Tera could also be looked at in the future. Will it remain broken after a couple more bans or is banning one controversial mechanic better than having 10 mons sent to Ubers because of it?

GTFO

I see no reason to keep this around. I absolutely despise this thing. Taunt shuts down most of our defensive counterplay such as Physd Gliscor and Dozo. Then you have Balloon Gambit which is a set that is not splashable on every team. The only consistent counterplay is a physically defensive pivot + Weavile. Even that isn’t secure enough because

A. Look at this bullshit
252 Atk Tera Ice Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 220-260 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

B. Lando and Mola, the main physically bulky pivots, need to reserve their health for its other teammates like Great Tusk or Gouging Fire.

It’s a cheesy wincon reminiscent of Sneasler, but it needs almost no support to 6-0 a team on its own. Quickban.

Things to Suspect

These three have counterplay and even provide some value to the tier, but keeping them in the tier might hurt the meta.

-Gouging Fire does have some counterplay options like bulky grounds, Garg, Balloon Tran, Dnite, and Dozo, but G-Fire has the ability to pick and choose what it wants to check. Tera Poison Breaking Swipe which is capable of 1v1ng Gliscor and Dozo which is fucking obsurd. Tran doesn’t OHKO it with EP, so one Dragon move and EQ later, Tran is cooked. Substitute with Tera 1v1s Garg, and Dnite doesn’t take kindly to Outrage or even D-Claw. CB Speed Booster sets under Sun can also rip through defensive cores. It should be the first to be suspected after Moon.

-Gambit at first seemed to have calmed down, but lately it has been running Jolly for Skarm and it has gone downhill. I’ve even seen it 1v1 physically defensive Tusk without Tera, because Gambit is so bulky it doesn’t give a fuck. Though Tera is the biggest reason why Gambit is even considered a suspect worthy mon. Without it, any decently bulky Fighting type could handle it no problem. Gambit is another mon that picks and chooses its checks. Between Lum, Balloon, Black Glasses, and Tera Flying, Fairy, Dark, or Fighting. There are some arguments to keep it though. Gambit stops a lot of cheese strats, checks Ghold/Pult, and is generally a reliable form of speed control. Even with Tera, Ironpress Zama and Encore remain solid counterplay to Kingambit. Regardless, it should be examined in the future.

-I already spilled the beans in regards to Wogre, but bottomline is, while its speed and vulnerability to hazards are notable, so is its ability to tear apart defensive cores with ease. The lack of consistent checks minus Serperior and Zama, along with the lack of bulky Grass types that would’ve kept it in check makes it a suspect worthy mon imo. I would argue it’d be even more broken without Tera as reactive Tera Grass no longer becomes an option.

Maybe after Moon leaves.

-I don’t consider Volc to be broken or at least as broken as the others. Tera is a big reason why it is considered for a suspect. It is more reasonable to checkmark a Volc check in the builder. Gliscor and Gking can trade health to get off a Toxic (also imo AV Gking is underrated and that works as a check too). Pult could 1v1 with T-Wave + Darts. CM Prim is a great check to it since most of them are QD/Fiery/Tera Blast/M-Sun. However Volc can get out of control with Tera Dragon or Ground. If Roaring Moon leaves, Volc will have more room to run Tera Ground and Giga Drain which smacks Primarina.

Not broken/Healthy

As of rn, these four are not on my radar. I think there is sufficient counterplay to them, and though they may warp the meta, they don’t do so to an unhealthy degree.

-A lot of players will point fingers at Gholdengo as the culprit for alot of Gen 9’s problems. However I think the issue is the lack of hazard removal options due to Game Freak’s incompetency. In fact I would argue Zapdos was a bigger piloter of spike stacking than Ghold as craz as this sounds. Tusk could at least 1v1 Gholdengo, but Zapdos scares it off everytime due to Static and Hurricane. Plus it benefits from the Spikes more. With it not being anywhere close to where it was in the last two metas, and the popularity of Hatt, Spikes feel less polarizing. Heck, some Spike stacking teams have even dropped Ghold since it isn’t even needed. Tusk also runs Boots more frequently to prevent teams from simply pivoting around it with spinblockers + Spikes. Teams also have much more room to run Boots thanks to Knock absorbers like Skarm and Gliscor. Ghold itself is a healthy addition that also checks some notable things like Zamazenta and Kyurem.

-Hazard stacking and SD sets are amazing but not broken due to the higher power level DLC2 occupies. Gliscor also gets discouraged from Terastilizing cause Spikes + Rocks dent it much more easily. More mons that can threaten KOs on Gliscor like Ice Beam Deo-S, Weavile, Primarina, and Kyu are worth noting. Gliscor also blanket checks half the meta which is valuable rn in a matchup fishy meta.

-Kyurem used to be the most broken thing in DLC2, but I think we’ve adapted well to it. A lot of bulky structures can play around Specs variants with rocks, Protect from Gliscor, and Gking/Volc/Ghold/Gambit/Weavile. HDB variants do not have nearly the same amount of horsepower. Stuff like Volc, Garg, and Clef avoid a 2HKO from its STABs and coverage. DD sets are broken on paper, but in practice they are simply just good, but predictable and Tera reliant.

-This is a mighty hot take but Raging Bolt isn’t broken. A sentiment that awyp and Finch will not agree with. My reasoning is not because it keeps Zapdos away, but accounting for it in the builder doesn’t feel restricting. For one, you should already have a ground type on your team anyways. Its been like that for generations because electric moves are scary. In fact Zapdos was harder to account for in the builder than Raging Bolt is because it outspeed all your pathetic ground types and nuked Tusk with Hurricane. Raging Bolt’s 75 speed is a lot more manageable for them and they could actually hit it with their Ground moves. Counterplay is also not limited to Ting-Lu, Lando, or Clod either. Gking can get off a Toxic. Garg is bulky enough to get off a Salt Cure. Encore Valiant can discourage a potential Thunderclap or CM. Plus there are more things in the tier that can eat a +1 Thunderclap than a +2 SO boosted Sucker. Hell there are some niche options that can take on Raging Bolt like SpD Ttar as a soft check.

 

[bigasschungusboi]

I agree with most points made, except for the discussion on Gholdengo. This Pokémon remains highly controversial and has significantly influenced the metagame, leading to an abundance of broken offensive strategies exacerbated by the presence of spikes that are exceedingly difficult to remove. This isn't due to deficiencies in available removal options (considering Pokémon like Tusk, Corv, and potentially Mandi, which could effectively handle many physical threats such as Moon, SD Scor, and Woger), but rather because Gholdengo significantly diminishes the value of Defog.
Some argue that using a turn to Defog in such a potent metagame might be suboptimal anyway, as it could be an opportunity for a free switch or setup. However, if, for instance, your designated check to Bolt is Ting, but there are three layers of spikes on the field, you won't be able to effectively check Bolt regardless of whether your opponent uses Thunderbolt on your Corv or sets up Calm Mind during the fog.
In conclusion, I believe Gholdengo warrants a suspect test, especially after addressing most of the other overpowered Pokémon in the tier