Project VGC 2016 Teambuilding Workshop

[Draconid997]

Welcome to the VGC 2016 Teambuilding Workshop!​

This is a thread for users to receive advice from fellow VGC '16 players to help you finish off any of your uncompleted teams. If you want to know how to build around a certain pokemon or core, need sample sets, or just need advice for selecting the last 1-2 pokemon on your team, then this is the place to ask.
What we need you to do is to, in short, post what your team is so far, what your thoughts or theory was behind it, and what you want us to help you with.

Don't ask about becoming a builder, as we will recruit them ourselves

Rules

• Have about a paragraph-sized description with the core you want to build around with some idea of what you want the end result to be
• Include the sets (importables) of the pokemon that you want us to build around, this makes the process a lot easier for all of us
• Do not post asking us to make use of uncompetitive/unviable Pokemon. If you're not sure if your Pokemon is viable, check the Viability Rankings
• Please note that we can choose to ignore extremely generic sets/cores, (e.g Big 6 teams - Xerneas/Primal Groudon/Mega Kangaskhan/Mega Salamence/Talonflame/Smeargle)
• NO GIMMICKS - This includes strategies such as Sheer Cold+Assist, Soak+Wonder Guard, Sturdy Shedinja, Guard Split/Power Spilt Shuckle, Skill Swap Spinda, and so on
• Please refrain from requesting a team when there are many pending requests. We appreciate that this thread will not fill up too fast, but please respect this rule if necessary
• We are here to help finish new teams, not to modify and/or critique older ones. If you want help in this regard, please use the RMT forum

Current Builders:
Draconid997
Ksh13
Jibaku
Steven Stone
_LightCore

 

[Draconid997]

(Team Archive)

Sardus21's Double Primal+Gardevoir Team

Fire Fist Ace's Gravity Team

Kurokaos' Ho-Oh/Primal Kyogre Team

Take Azelfie's RayOgre/Salamence Team

Ill_Peripheral's YvelDon Team

If you want your team taken down from here, please let me know

 

[Rcheez]

I just made this team and I want to see if it's good,
Can you help?
I need to refine my sableye set and add in 2 more pokemon

Team

Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird

Sacred Fire+Brave Bird for STAB, Recover for... well... recovery and earthquake for a counter to Primal Groudon. This Pokemon's main goal is to counter Primal Groudon and Geo-Xerneas
and be a good special wall. I was think of running assault vest however recovery seemed better.

Rayquaza-Mega @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Delta Stream
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Dragon Dance

Dragon Ascent for STAB and so that it can mega evolve, Dragon Claw for STAB and mainly neutral coverage to most types, Dragon Dance for sweeping and turning Rayquaza into a monster, Earthquake for good coverage, specifically against Primal Groudon. This is mainly a counter to both primal pokemon and frail support pokemon. It can also wall break well and hits whimsicott for superefective damage with Dragon Ascent.

Sableye @ Lum Berry
Ability: Prankster
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 SpD
Careful Nature
- Confuse Ray
- Knock Off
- Pain Split
- Will-O-Wisp

This Sableye is mainly a support tool with the intent of shutting down physical sweepers/attackers with confuse ray and will-o-wisp. Pain Split for recovery and knock off to get past taunt and useful for cresselia and choices pokemon. Lum Berry is also useful for Amoongus that run Spore.

Cresselia (F) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Calm Nature
- Skill Swap
- Toxic
- Psychic
- Moonlight

Skill Swap for taking prankster or other useful abilities, Toxic for stall damage (main way of inflicting damage), psychic for STAB and a way of getting past taunt (if the first way doesn't work) and moonlight for recovery. Mental Herb for taunters, usually they are prankster so I'd have skill-swapped them already, so I can make sure I can play against them. Main use of defensive wall and staller.

I used to have a Lantern and a Landorus-T here however I've been advised to change it. Any other ideas?

I was also advised to put in some more team-benefitting tactics like Tailwind, Gravity and Trick Room, however I started playing VGC 1 week ago so I have no clue what to use.

Please tell me what I can change! Sorry my paragraphs are kinda short, it's late at night and I still need to study for exams :P lol
Thanks!

 

[Rcheez]

Here's my team - I've used it a lot, however I mainly want to see if I can change a bit to better suit the VGC format.
The team revolves around a gravity+hypnosis+quash+confuse ray on Sableye and Mega Gengar
Either a) First turn gravity with Sableye and Hypnosis with Gengar
or b) First turn gravity or fake out with Sableye, protect with gengar, second turn gravity or quash with sableye if not already done and hypnosis with Gengar

I saw a youtuber first using this tactic and I haven't seen anyone else use it at all which is surprising. He had a Kyurem-W and psyduck (don't ask) when he used it, however, so I want to refine this tactic better to the rest of my team.

I need a good 6th pokemon and possibly a replacement for Amoongus if that's possible please? Currently Amoongus serves next to no purpose and I don't think I've ever used him

(Team)

Gengar-Mega @ Gengarite
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 156 SpA / 100 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Perish Song
- Hypnosis
- Protect
- Sludge Bomb

Perish Song as a last resort to if my other strategies don't work and also good for trapping threats, Hypnosis for strategy mentioned above and a good way of dealing with set-up pokemon, Protect for strategy above and overall good for stalling perish song and/or poisons with sludge bomb, sludge bomb for a STAB attacks and a way of getting past taunt. Main use of the strategy and support. Also good against whimsicott-regi combo with sludge bomb

Sableye @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 SpD
Careful Nature
- Quash
- Confuse Ray
- Fake Out
- Gravity

Quash is for putting quick attackers to sleep easily and has been extremely useful against the Primals, Mega Evolutions, etc. so I'm not changing that. Confuse Ray to get past physical attackers, fake out might get rid of but good for chip damage or an alternative for protect, gravity for strategy that benefits team heavily. Mainly a support to stop sweepers

Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Bold Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Spore
- Protect

Most likely needs a change!
Giga Drain for recovery, sludge bomb for STAB and possible poison, Spore for free sleeps and protect for stalling. Mainly defensive Specially and regenerator+black sludge for recovery. Really needs a change, please help!

Cresselia @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Calm Nature
- Skill Swap
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Toxic

Skill Swap to stop Prankster pokemon and to steal useful abilities (works well with -ate mons), Calm Minds to set up special wall and to power up psychic, psychic for an attacking move to get past taunt and a good STAB (running over ice beam because I found it more useful and powerful), toxic for stalling and main way of dealing damage. Mainly a wall, proved really useful. Also works brilliantly with Sableye (see replay below)

Talonflame @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Secret Power
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Roost

Secret Power turns into a 100BP Grass type move that has a 30% chance to paralyse - can dish out tons of damage to Primal Kyogre and other water types. Also the berry raises the attack of Talonflame by +1 so if the recoil brings me down I can do one final powerful attack. Really good move, unexpected and the secret power is a 2HKO against Primal Kyogre and 1HKO if the +1 is achieved. Brave Bird+Flare Blitz for STAB and damage, also a good way of getting to that berry quicker. Note that a +1 Brave Bird does around 50% to Primal Groudon, who usually walls Talonflame. Roost for recovery for recoil damage and good once the stat boost is achieved. Powerful sweeper, good against many walls and a poke that needs to stay. Not changing, maybe roost but thats it!

Here's a replay of the team that showcases how Sableye/Cresselia work well together and how I completely messed up the gravity/hypnosis strategy :P
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/vgc2016-358056595
Also a good comeback if I do say so myself
Thanks again, please consider what I've wrote. :)
P.S. How do you make drop down boxes. I don't want to take up so much room on the layout :P

 

[Draconid997]

Hi Rcheez :)
Unfortunately both of your teams are completed, which means that you should be using the RMT forum to deal with your request
Sorry to be a pain, but we are here to build new teams, and not critique older ones, so i would be very happy to rate your team if you post it in this forum:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/oras-other-teams.292/?prefix_id=213
Thanks

Also to create drop down boxes, you input this code:

[hide=(title)]text or image[/hide]

 

[Jibaku]

Hi. It appears that you may be new to this format. That's alright, we can help out. However, since you have already posted a complete team, you're better off using the RMT forum to get a proper rate. But before you go, I'd like to mention a couple of basics that can help your team tremendously

More general stuff:
- Use Protect on things, especially on your restricted Pokemon as they are primary target for your opponent to knock out
- Iron Head is extremely unnecessary on Ho-Oh given that its STABs deal comparable damage to Xerneas anyways.
- The general pace of your teams are far too slow in this offensive metagame. Your Lanturn set will not do much, and neither will Cress, Sableye, etc.
- Make more use of field- or team- affecting moves like Gravity, Tailwind, and Trick Room. These moves shine when multiple mons on each side are out on the field, and also in battles with short lifespans. A single instance of these moves going up can heavily affect battles - it comes down to how you make use of them to gain an advantage
- The Gravity/Hypnosis combination is something that actually works! But the rest of your team is poorly supported by it. Why not add some restricted Pokemon in there? A primal Groudon is surely an easy addition, making use of Gravity with its extremely powerful Precipice Blades.


Lastly, this is an excellent thread to compare your teams with. It also provides you with plenty of information about some of the most prominent teams in the metagame, as well as their structures.
Team Building Frameworks:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/vgc-16-teambuilding-frameworks.3564141/

 

[Draconid997]

Are there any teambuilding workshops for VGC? I still am unsure how to really go about building Pokemon (EV wise) for VGC and would like some help with a new team idea I had, or just cementing the team I currently have just with no EVs yet...

Hey Oriolous would this thread help you out?
Your post on the SQSA thread sparked our interest for making this :)

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Ok, throwing this here to avoid clogging SQSA thread / more relevent here at this point.
Have been considering finally weaseling into VGC16 since I was so amazeballs at VGC 15. But mostly I'm bored.
Grazing across threads here I kinda brainstormed a core I'd like, just need the other half. irl too, know what I mean

Sets

Metagross @ Mega
Jolly, 20 HP, 252 Atk, 4 Def, 36 Sp. Def, 196 Speed
Ability: Clear Body (Tough Claws)

- Iron Head
- Protect
- Ice Punch
- Zen Headbutt

The set and spread are something I whipped up earlier, explained in full detail here.

Kyogre @ Blue Orb
Modest, 188 HP, 204 Def, 76 SpA, 4 SpD, 36 Spe
Ability: Drizzle (Primordial Sea)

- Origin Pulse
- Protect
- Ice Beam
- Thunder

This one is not my own spread, so it's explained here.

Palkia @ Lustrous Orb
Timid, 4 HP, 252 Sp. Atk, 252 Speed
Ability: Pressure

- Spacial Rend
- Protect
- Aura Sphere
- Hydro Pump

Metagross doesn't need Speed support at all to demolish Xerneas, and also effectively crushes Mega Salamence, Rayquaza, and Landorus-T. Might make a nice partner to Pdon now that I type that out. Also 2HKOs Primal Kyogre with Zen Headbutt, and Crobat shits a brick on sight. Talonflame can't actually do much in Heavy Rain either.

Kyogre is imo a good idea to run with Pdon being the infernal god of destruction that it is, and with Metagross eliminating Xern from setting up on it and 1-2 punching opposing Kyogre, it seems to be a pretty good mon all around. Water Spout is obviously horrifying but the HP dependance and severe derps that happen with it without a fast Heal Pulse user (aka, Latias) make it highly undesriable to me. Origin Pulse can miss, yes, but it also KO's shit when you're not at 100% HP. Ice Beam because it's a Water type, why the hell would you not run it, and Thunder because I'd prefer to blow up opposing Kyogre and actually threaten opposing Palkia while holding that disgusting Paralysis hax over my foe.

Palkia is probably debatable but I feel that it excels in the Rain (297 power on Hydro Pump in Rain with Lustrous Orb, good luck stomaching that one) and as a giant penis monster, it can display my ego adequately. Timid and max Speed because that's what the RNG gods granted me whilst SRing like a caveman and because it outruns most other Uber slots and can slam Giratina, Rayquaza (which it crucially outspeeds), Primal Groudon, Yveltal, Kangaskhan, Salamence, etc. Xern is the main nightmare of Palkia, and Metagross eliminates that one. Mega Ray can't do jack shit without Overheat (which is risky in itself thanks to Kyogre) to Metagross, and non-Mega is outran and OHKO'd, while also being manhandled by Primal Kyogre.

Speaking of Palkia, I decided on a fast spread because TR Mega Metagross didn't sound very good / I find TR unreliable in general, and as for the obvious lack of Earth power: Spacial Rend has equal power on Primal Groudon, and gives no shit about Skill Swap shenanigans. Heatran obviously has no business in front of Palkia. So, why not use Aura Sphere and blow up Khan / Ferrothorn / Dialga all in one?

Remaining 3 mons probably need extra Kyogre coverage (maybe?), a Ferrothorn smasher, heavy Speed control (Thundy or Klefki for T-Wave, bulky Icy Wind mon? TR is a no), a Dark resist would probably be a good idea as auto-losing to Kang+Yveltal is bad, and I'm also fucked against TR Mega Mawile. glhf

 

[Draconid997]

Hi ProjectTitan313 :)
Just at face value, your core looks as though it needs a solid check to primal groudon and TR teams, as well as a second answer to mega rayquaza.
After looking through some options, here are some of my suggestions

• What's your opinion of substitute on metagross over bullet punch? I think it's pretty useful, since sucker punch is one of MegaGross' biggest weaknesses, and sub will allow you to dodge it from mons like kangaskhan etc. Will also sponge status like smeargle's DV.
  
• Flamethrower>Aura Sphere on palkia is a viable trade to deal with ferrothorn more easily which you mentioned
  
• Needs Taunt to help out vs TR
• Tailwind will benefit all your mons, so either crobat or talonflame can help out here
• Crobat is the more viable taunt user, given its matchup against smeargle etc, and since talonflame really needs all of its moves to operate as well as possible
  
• Crobat+Metagross can do a similar job to Gengar+Crobat against xerneas/smeargle, as i have mentioned before
• Landorus-T is a pretty solid check to groudon, and with timid palkia's access to telepathy can use explosion/earthquake without much worry
• Ferrothorn is a decent check to xerneas/kyogre as well as rayquaza (in rain -> avoid overheat)

So here are some sample sets, metagross and crobat are from the SQSA thread:

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
Level: 50
EVs: 44 HP / 244 Atk / 44 Def / 4 SpD / 172 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Ice Punch
- Substitute
- Protect

Spread is designed around substitute, can set up 2 subs in the face of adamant kang's sucker punch, 44 HP gives a sub number (4n+1) so it can set up 4 substitutes and be left with 1 HP, speed allows you to outpace max speed xerneas with the rest in Atk.

Crobat @ Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 50
EVs: 68 HP / 188 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Super Fang
- Taunt
- Tailwind
- Quick Guard

Survives +2 moonblast from xerneas / double-edge from kangaskhan most of the time
Super fang fills a similar role to metagross' missing bullet punch

Here's the theory:

• Essentially with gengar crobat, you need something to stop smeargle and something to OHKO xerneas
• Metagross can OHKO xerneas with iron head+super fang, and sub can block dark voids etc
• Crobat can taunt smeargle and super fang xerneas as well as get a tailwind up
• T1: Protect + Taunt Smeargle
• T2: Iron Head + Super Fang Xerneas

Palkia @ Lustrous Orb
Ability: Telepathy
Level: 50
EVs: 44 HP / 4 Def / 180 SpA / 28 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spacial Rend
- Hydro Pump
- Flamethrower
- Protect

Small changes to the EV spread:
Survives 3 Precipice blades from -1 primal groudon (i.e after leading lando-t)
Survives 3 Thunders from modest kyogre
Flamethrower will OHKO most ferrothorn variants
What's your opinion on haban berry over lustrous orb?

Ferrothorn @ Expert Belt
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Atk / 60 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Protect

This is a variant of GradeAGarchomp's ferrothorn spread
Survives 3 water spouts from kyogre
OHKOs pretty much all set up xerneas with gyro
OHKOs most kyogres with expert belt power whip
Leftovers is a viable item option, allowing you to stall stuff like mawile more easily

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 156 Atk / 92 Def / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- U-turn / Superpower
- Explosion / Superpower

Landorus-T checks physical primal groudon pretty well, and can dent special groudon to the extent that eruption does zero
You could equally use a 4/252/252 spread
Survives 3 Brave Birds from standard talonflame
Superpower for ferrothorn, U-Turn for intimidate shuffling
Explosion if you want to have it as a lead option with telepathy palkia
Rock Slide useful for talonflame, yveltal, rayquaza, thundurus etc

Other Options:

Ferrothorn+Double Genies

This is a pretty balanced back 3 that works well against most stuff, but i don't think thundurus is quite as good as crobat on this team, personal preference really

Talonflame>Crobat

Better matchup against special groudon, can function fine in TR, up to you

 

[Namikaze]

Ok, throwing this here to avoid clogging SQSA thread / more relevent here at this point.
Have been considering finally weaseling into VGC16 since I was so amazeballs at VGC 15. But mostly I'm bored.
Grazing across threads here I kinda brainstormed a core I'd like, just need the other half. irl too, know what I mean

Sets

Metagross @ Mega
Jolly, 20 HP, 252 Atk, 4 Def, 36 Sp. Def, 196 Speed
Ability: Clear Body (Tough Claws)

- Iron Head
- Protect
- Ice Punch
- Zen Headbutt

The set and spread are something I whipped up earlier, explained in full detail here.

Kyogre @ Blue Orb
Modest, 188 HP, 204 Def, 76 SpA, 4 SpD, 36 Spe
Ability: Drizzle (Primordial Sea)

- Origin Pulse
- Protect
- Ice Beam
- Thunder

This one is not my own spread, so it's explained here.

Palkia @ Lustrous Orb
Timid, 4 HP, 252 Sp. Atk, 252 Speed
Ability: Pressure

- Spacial Rend
- Protect
- Aura Sphere
- Hydro Pump

Metagross doesn't need Speed support at all to demolish Xerneas, and also effectively crushes Mega Salamence, Rayquaza, and Landorus-T. Might make a nice partner to Pdon now that I type that out. Also 2HKOs Primal Kyogre with Zen Headbutt, and Crobat shits a brick on sight. Talonflame can't actually do much in Heavy Rain either.

Kyogre is imo a good idea to run with Pdon being the infernal god of destruction that it is, and with Metagross eliminating Xern from setting up on it and 1-2 punching opposing Kyogre, it seems to be a pretty good mon all around. Water Spout is obviously horrifying but the HP dependance and severe derps that happen with it without a fast Heal Pulse user (aka, Latias) make it highly undesriable to me. Origin Pulse can miss, yes, but it also KO's shit when you're not at 100% HP. Ice Beam because it's a Water type, why the hell would you not run it, and Thunder because I'd prefer to blow up opposing Kyogre and actually threaten opposing Palkia while holding that disgusting Paralysis hax over my foe.

Palkia is probably debatable but I feel that it excels in the Rain (297 power on Hydro Pump in Rain with Lustrous Orb, good luck stomaching that one) and as a giant penis monster, it can display my ego adequately. Timid and max Speed because that's what the RNG gods granted me whilst SRing like a caveman and because it outruns most other Uber slots and can slam Giratina, Rayquaza (which it crucially outspeeds), Primal Groudon, Yveltal, Kangaskhan, Salamence, etc. Xern is the main nightmare of Palkia, and Metagross eliminates that one. Mega Ray can't do jack shit without Overheat (which is risky in itself thanks to Kyogre) to Metagross, and non-Mega is outran and OHKO'd, while also being manhandled by Primal Kyogre.

Speaking of Palkia, I decided on a fast spread because TR Mega Metagross didn't sound very good / I find TR unreliable in general, and as for the obvious lack of Earth power: Spacial Rend has equal power on Primal Groudon, and gives no shit about Skill Swap shenanigans. Heatran obviously has no business in front of Palkia. So, why not use Aura Sphere and blow up Khan / Ferrothorn / Dialga all in one?

Remaining 3 mons probably need extra Kyogre coverage (maybe?), a Ferrothorn smasher, heavy Speed control (Thundy or Klefki for T-Wave, bulky Icy Wind mon? TR is a no), a Dark resist would probably be a good idea as auto-losing to Kang+Yveltal is bad, and I'm also fucked against TR Mega Mawile. glhf

You have a solid start on a team, but there are certain things you beat on paper, but will actually struggle against. First and foremost, your core is actually pretty Groudon weak as you have nothing to switch in on it and it virtually switches in on you with impunity. Assault Vest Lando is a nice check here against most variants and even provides you with Intimidate support in the process.

You definitely need something to deal with Smeargle since it easily cripples the team thus far. Liepard has access to Fake Out, Encore, And Taunt to cripple it, which are helpful in match ups against TR and Tailwind teams as well. But you have to play around Talonflame and other fast Quick Guard support.

Most Ray don't carry Overheat, but in case they do, Metagross still loses since Air Lock beats out Primordial Sea. On the plus side, unless it is running a non existent special set, then either Metagross or your Palkia can check it, but be careful as Ray outspeeds you after mega evolving.

I always get stumped on the last Pokemon to put on a team so I'm kind of drawing a blank here, but I hope i helped so far!

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Hi ProjectTitan313 :)
Just at face value, your core looks as though it needs a solid check to primal groudon and TR teams, as well as a second answer to mega rayquaza.
After looking through some options, here are some of my suggestions

• What's your opinion of substitute on metagross over bullet punch? I think it's pretty useful, since sucker punch is one of MegaGross' biggest weaknesses, and sub will allow you to dodge it from mons like kangaskhan etc. Will also sponge status like smeargle's DV.
  
• Flamethrower>Aura Sphere on palkia is a viable trade to deal with ferrothorn more easily which you mentioned
  
• Needs Taunt to help out vs TR
• Tailwind will benefit all your mons, so either crobat or talonflame can help out here
• Crobat is the more viable taunt user, given its matchup against smeargle etc, and since talonflame really needs all of its moves to operate as well as possible
  
• Crobat+Metagross can do a similar job to Gengar+Crobat against xerneas/smeargle, as i have mentioned before
• Landorus-T is a pretty solid check to groudon, and with timid palkia's access to telepathy can use explosion/earthquake without much worry
• Ferrothorn is a decent check to xerneas/kyogre as well as rayquaza (in rain -> avoid overheat)

So here are some sample sets, metagross and crobat are from the SQSA thread:

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
Level: 50
EVs: 44 HP / 244 Atk / 44 Def / 4 SpD / 172 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Ice Punch
- Substitute
- Protect

Spread is designed around substitute, can set up 2 subs in the face of adamant kang's sucker punch, 44 HP gives a sub number (4n+1) so it can set up 4 substitutes and be left with 1 HP, speed allows you to outpace max speed xerneas with the rest in Atk.

Crobat @ Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 50
EVs: 68 HP / 188 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Super Fang
- Taunt
- Tailwind
- Quick Guard

Survives +2 moonblast from xerneas / double-edge from kangaskhan most of the time
Super fang fills a similar role to metagross' missing bullet punch

Here's the theory:

• Essentially with gengar crobat, you need something to stop smeargle and something to OHKO xerneas
• Metagross can OHKO xerneas with iron head+super fang, and sub can block dark voids etc
• Crobat can taunt smeargle and super fang xerneas as well as get a tailwind up
• T1: Protect + Taunt Smeargle
• T2: Iron Head + Super Fang Xerneas

Palkia @ Lustrous Orb
Ability: Telepathy
Level: 50
EVs: 44 HP / 4 Def / 180 SpA / 28 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spacial Rend
- Hydro Pump
- Flamethrower
- Protect

Small changes to the EV spread:
Survives 3 Precipice blades from -1 primal groudon (i.e after leading lando-t)
Survives 3 Thunders from modest kyogre
Flamethrower will OHKO most ferrothorn variants
What's your opinion on haban berry over lustrous orb?

Ferrothorn @ Expert Belt
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Atk / 60 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Protect

This is a variant of GradeAGarchomp's ferrothorn spread
Survives 3 water spouts from kyogre
OHKOs pretty much all set up xerneas with gyro
OHKOs most kyogres with expert belt power whip
Leftovers is a viable item option, allowing you to stall stuff like mawile more easily

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 156 Atk / 92 Def / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- U-turn / Superpower
- Explosion / Superpower

Landorus-T checks physical primal groudon pretty well, and can dent special groudon to the extent that eruption does zero
You could equally use a 4/252/252 spread
Survives 3 Brave Birds from standard talonflame
Superpower for ferrothorn, U-Turn for intimidate shuffling
Explosion if you want to have it as a lead option with telepathy palkia
Rock Slide useful for talonflame, yveltal, rayquaza, thundurus etc

Other Options:

Ferrothorn+Double Genies

This is a pretty balanced back 3 that works well against most stuff, but i don't think thundurus is quite as good as crobat on this team, personal preference really

Talonflame>Crobat

Better matchup against special groudon, can function fine in TR, up to you

Wait I am confused as fuck on a few things.
Is Telepathy even available with a Pentagon? I'd be using it in a heartbeat if it was. I'm not aware of any HA Palkia events in Gen 6.

Sub Metagross does nothing to opposing Kyogre. I'd almost rather use Magnet Rise just to be a dick. I know Zen Headbutt only really hits Water types/Groudon neutrally but still. If I double it with Ferrothorn and Super Fang it might work, but I could just as easily Super Fang -> Zen Headbutt. Against Kang, well, it never really did beat Kang and I'd rather just run something else to deal with Kang. Smeargle can just run Scarf to outrun Sub, and also outruns the turn you mega even without Scarf. I'm not sure on Sub Metagross with no redirection. Could scrape against Smeargle with the Crobat. I guess I could be ok with Sub. :P

Khan and Smeargle I usually use Safeguard Klefki. Smeargle's item / set means nothing. Trick Room / Icy Wind means nothing. Whole team is immune to Smeargle's life for 5 turns. Spews T-Wave + Swagger everywhere. Doubles Metagross' Fire/Ground weaks though.

Palkia spread is good. Flamethrower is fine, it just has that "I can't use it at all in the weather I am trying to set up" problem. Haban would be fine over Lustrous Orb I'm not that attached to the item. Flamethrower gets a Sun boost which is pretty funny but I'm shaky about disabling my only move capable of tickling Ferrothorn. Not opposed though.

Crobat looks ok. Don't understand why I'd Super Fang + Iron Head a Xern though, there's a 75% chance (at minimum) that Iron Head OHKOs. :P

Landog:
No bulk, it's not switching into Mence / Groudon for very long, and CB EQ is so very easy to take advantage of. AssVest or a set able to use a Sitrus Berry might be better, switching moves is important.
I like the mon, just not the CB.

You have a solid start on a team, but there are certain things you beat on paper, but will actually struggle against. First and foremost, your core is actually pretty Groudon weak as you have nothing to switch in on it and it virtually switches in on you with impunity. Assault Vest Lando is a nice check here against most variants and even provides you with Intimidate support in the process.

You definitely need something to deal with Smeargle since it easily cripples the team thus far. Liepard has access to Fake Out, Encore, And Taunt to cripple it, which are helpful in match ups against TR and Tailwind teams as well. But you have to play around Talonflame and other fast Quick Guard support.

Most Ray don't carry Overheat, but in case they do, Metagross still loses since Air Lock beats out Primordial Sea. On the plus side, unless it is running a non existent special set, then either Metagross or your Palkia can check it, but be careful as Ray outspeeds you after mega evolving.

I always get stumped on the last Pokemon to put on a team so I'm kind of drawing a blank here, but I hope i helped so far!

I can keep Kyogre in the back against Pdon and stick Palkia as the lead, no? Hate eating the Precipice Blades, but I could switch out partner -> Kyogre, Palkia murders with Hydro Pump or Spacial Rend. Also outruns and 2HKOs with Spacial Rend if I don't switch. AV Landog I do like though, seems to be the logical 4th member so far.

Smeargle, agreed. It's a cheese machine. I've been running Klefki for months against the stupid thing: Prankster Safeguard > its life. Quick Guard support and Mental Herb / Scarf don't matter. Doubles up on Metagross' weaknesses but I've successfully paired both before in VGC15.

Ray can Protect + Mega -> Overheat, definetly. Klefki would also help there: sac itself to T-Wave it at absolute worst. Having Metagross next to Palkia or Kyogre helps too: it can't KO both at the same time. Haban Palkia could be used as well maybe.

I guess I could do:

Metagross + Kyogre + Palkia + AV Landog + Crobat/Klefki (anti-cheese machine + speed control). maybe both Crobat AND Klefki? lol.

 

[Draconid997]

Yep there was a telepathy palkia giveaway locked into timid nature (japanese)
http://www.serebii.net/events/dex/484.shtml

AV lando t is totally fine, i just prefer cb because of the extra explosion damage etc
You might want to run superpower over explosion if you run av

EDIT:
Palkia/Kyogre/Metagross/Landorus-T/Klefki/Talonflame
Palkia/Kyogre/Metagross/Landorus-T/Ferrothorn/Crobat

Both of these teams could work

 

[Namikaze]

ProjectTitan313 Yup, you've got the play on Groudon when its already on the field or leading, but the trouble occurs when it switches in. Palkia does get the 2kho (and a partner would subsequently ko groudon since it would have 30% left), but mind games can pursue with protect. You easily minimize those with your team support. That why I like Lando so much, as in the rain it is immune to Groudon.

Im really liking that safeguard klefki as it provides some great team support and the rest of your team has good offensive presense. That first team Draconid997 suggested with the Talonflame seems the way to go. Best of luck!

 

[Jibaku]

I like that Palkia's sheer power is being explored here. It's something that hasn't really seen much use at all and a lot of people use TR which kinda wastes Palkia's amazing 100 base Speed. Flamethrower is fine as far as I'm concerned

Anyways I'll just continue on from the above suggestions and see where the problems lie, as well as a few questions. The teams look fine, but some concerns:

Both teams struggle against the combo of Yveltal + Thundurus.

Both teams can also struggle with Trick Room + Groudon and it depends on how much you can juggle Rain and Intimidate to reduce its threat level. However, you have little to prevent Cresselia/Bronzong/Dialga from setting up. Perhaps Amoonguss somewhere wouldn't be a bad idea.

Ferrothorn can be an issue, but that's a given for most Kyogre based teams.

Now then:

When creating a team, I like to think of ways to beat Big 6, and that starts from the leads. You've mentioned Klefki was a Smeargle counter, but what about Klefki's partner? How do you plan to lead against Smeargle + Groudon? Do you have Lum on Klefki to take on the combined Fake Out + Dark Void from Khan + Smeargle?

 

[Rcheez]

Hi Rcheez :)
Unfortunately both of your teams are completed, which means that you should be using the RMT forum to deal with your request
Sorry to be a pain, but we are here to build new teams, and not critique older ones, so i would be very happy to rate your team if you post it in this forum:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/oras-other-teams.292/?prefix_id=213
Thanks

Also to create drop down boxes, you input this code:

[hide=(title)]text or image[/hide]

Thanks a ton :)
I actually added in some pokemon thinking you needed a whole team so thanks for telling me :)

 

[Rcheez]

Hi. It appears that you may be new to this format. That's alright, we can help out. However, since you have already posted a complete team, you're better off using the RMT forum to get a proper rate. But before you go, I'd like to mention a couple of basics that can help your team tremendously

More general stuff:
- Use Protect on things, especially on your restricted Pokemon as they are primary target for your opponent to knock out
- Iron Head is extremely unnecessary on Ho-Oh given that its STABs deal comparable damage to Xerneas anyways.
- The general pace of your teams are far too slow in this offensive metagame. Your Lanturn set will not do much, and neither will Cress, Sableye, etc.
- Make more use of field- or team- affecting moves like Gravity, Tailwind, and Trick Room. These moves shine when multiple mons on each side are out on the field, and also in battles with short lifespans. A single instance of these moves going up can heavily affect battles - it comes down to how you make use of them to gain an advantage
- The Gravity/Hypnosis combination is something that actually works! But the rest of your team is poorly supported by it. Why not add some restricted Pokemon in there? A primal Groudon is surely an easy addition, making use of Gravity with its extremely powerful Precipice Blades.


Lastly, this is an excellent thread to compare your teams with. It also provides you with plenty of information about some of the most prominent teams in the metagame, as well as their structures.
Team Building Frameworks:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/vgc-16-teambuilding-frameworks.3564141/

Thanks a ton! As I edited in I have only played VGC for a week and I had hurried to put in 2 pokemon (I didn't realise you couldn't have whole teams sorry) so I think I'm gonna refer to the RMT link. Thanks!

 

[Draconid997]

Thanks a ton :)
I actually added in some pokemon thinking you needed a whole team so thanks for telling me :)

I'm really looking forward to rating your team :)

 

[Sardus21]

Hi Draconid997 ! I was really waiting for this thread lol.
Anyway as you know I am working on a Double Primal+Gardevoir-Mega Semi-TR team,and I need a bit of help for finishing the team.
The sets are:

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Level: 50
EVs: 156 HP / 108 Atk / 240 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 28 SpD
- Precipice Blades
- Rock Slide
- Fire Punch
- Protect

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
Level: 50
EVs: 204 HP / 236 Def / 60 SpA / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Water Spout
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Protect

Gardevoir-Mega (F) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
Level: 50
EVs: 108 HP / 124 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Trick Room
- Protect

The Garde spread is from 2015,but has worked really well until now.The Primals are really bulky and I like this,Kyogre being capable of taking 3 Precipice Blades from Adamant Groudon is great (and has surprised lots of opponents),the attack drop is really nothing to make a drama about due to the rain,Groudon is capable of taking 252+ Earth Powers from opposing Groudons.
As for now,my idea is to have another Primal check,a fast mode with either Tailwind or TWave,and a Xerneas check.
What do you suggest?
My god if you are helpful,mate.

 

[Chantaraya]

Hello guys! I love this thread :)
I need some help for a Groudon+Kyurem-Black team,here are the member I settled with for now:

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Level: 50
EVs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Def / 4 SpA / 220 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Precipice Blades
- Fire Punch
- Protect
- Rock Slide

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
Level: 50
EVs: 44 Atk / 212 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Protect

Cresselia @ Mental Herb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 156 Def / 76 SpD / 32 Spe
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gravity
- Ice Beam
- Skill Swap
- Trick Room

Talonflame @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Gale Wings
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Quick Guard
- Tailwind

Kangaskhan @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Double-Edge
- Low Kick
- Sucker Punch

As you can see is a Semi TR team,Kyurem is here because can do massive damage to both Primals,and can eliminate Rayquaza/Salamence/Landorus-T for Groudon given to it some speed control.Talonflame&Cresselia are the speed controllers,and Kangaskhan-Mega is here to provide Fake Out support for a sure Tailwind/TR and a hard hitting mon.
What do you suggest for this?
Thank you guys.

 

[Draconid997]

Hi Draconid997 ! I was really waiting for this thread lol.
Anyway as you know I am working on a Double Primal+Gardevoir-Mega Semi-TR team,and I need a bit of help for finishing the team.
The sets are:

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Level: 50
EVs: 156 HP / 108 Atk / 240 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 28 SpD
- Precipice Blades
- Rock Slide
- Fire Punch
- Protect

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
Level: 50
EVs: 204 HP / 236 Def / 60 SpA / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Water Spout
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Protect

Gardevoir-Mega (F) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
Level: 50
EVs: 108 HP / 124 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Trick Room
- Protect

The Garde spread is from 2015,but has worked really well until now.The Primals are really bulky and I like this,Kyogre being capable of taking 3 Precipice Blades from Adamant Groudon is great (and has surprised lots of opponents),the attack drop is really nothing to make a drama about due to the rain,Groudon is capable of taking 252+ Earth Powers from opposing Groudons.
As for now,my idea is to have another Primal check,a fast mode with either Tailwind or TWave,and a Xerneas check.
What do you suggest?
My god if you are helpful,mate.

Hey Sardus21 :D
You mentioned this archetype in the frameworks thread, and i really like the idea
Just looking at some sample teams, i can see that a fairly standard Ferrothorn/Landorus-T/Thundurus-I could work here, which fills your roles of xerneas/kyogre check (ferro), thunder wave/kyogre check (thundy) and groudon check+intimidate support (lando t). This core was used on one of the top cut teams at that PKMN-PH Monthly Tournament:

(Sample Sets)

Landorus-T

Choice Band

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 156 Atk / 92 Def / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
- Superpower

(survives 3 brave birds from talonflame, although you could definitely use 4/252/252)

Assault Vest

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 148 Atk / 92 Def / 12 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
- Superpower

(Pretty similar, now survives an eruption from primal groudon as well as the previous benchmark)

Thundurus

Offensive

Thundurus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
Level: 50
EVs: 36 HP / 220 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wild Charge
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt
- Protect

LO wild charge is able to OHKO less bulky variants of primal kyogre, which is pretty fun to watch, and the HP EVs reach 159, fitting into the HP number rule 10n-1

Defensive

Thundurus (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Def / 4 SpA / 180 SpD / 28 Spe
Calm Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave
- Protect

Survives eruption from primal groudon, and double edge from kang, the rest goes in SpA and speed (no particular benchmark for either, although it does outspeed max spe base 70s)

Ferrothorn

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers / Expert Belt
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Atk / 60 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Protect

Survives 3 water spouts from primal kyogre, OHKOs set up xerneas with gyro ball, expert belt allows you to OHKO most kyogre too

Other options:

Talonflame has very good synergy with mega gardevoir, supplying tailwind support for when it is necessary whilst performing excellently inside TR, handling steel types that gardevoir struggles against. It also does well against groudon and xerneas, and would be a good alternative to either of the double genies, preferably landorus-t, given that both give support vs groudon

(Sample Set)

Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
Level: 50
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 36 Def / 4 SpD / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Tailwind
- Quick Guard

Outspeeds fast kangaskhan
Survives brave bird from opposing talonflame
OHKOs opposing talonflame with its own BB
(Outspeeds opposing 252 spe talonflame inside TR)
Life orb HP number of 159 (10n-1)

A secondary mega would be great when Trick Room isn't required, so mons like mega kangaskhan / mega salamence would be good here:
Salamence gives the team the support it desparately needs against mega rayquaza
Kangaskhan is also great given that it can lead very well with talonflame (if you decide to use it) with its offensive capabilities+fake out support

Possible outcomes
Groudon/Kyogre/Gardevoir-Mega/Ferrothorn/Landorus-T/Thundurus
Groudon/Kyogre/Gardevoir-Mega/Ferrothorn/(Salamence-Mega/Kangaskhan-Mega)/Talonflame
etc

Other Improvements:

Gardevoir-Mega

Gardevoir-Mega (F) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
Level: 50
EVs: 236 HP / 28 Def / 156 SpA / 84 SpD / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Trick Room
- Protect

Just a spread that i quickly came up with now, survives kyogre's water spout and groudon's precipice blades (can't survive rayquaza's dragon ascent, unless you lead intimidate and invest 68 EVs in defence with the current HP). +2 Timid Xerneas' moonblast has a 50% chance to OHKO.
Bisharp isn't that successful in this year's format, so the 20 speed won't really help you out in most situations, so you can put some extra into SpA, although a little more speed would be nice to outspeed TR palkia

Groudon

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Level: 50
EVs: 204 HP / 196 Atk / 4 Def / 104 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 28 SpD / 0 Spe
- Precipice Blades
- Rock Slide
- Overheat
- Protect

A slow groudon would be a little more ideal for when you're inside TR, really up to you though
The spread survives a +1 Dragon Ascent from LO mega rayquaza as well as an earth power from timid groudon, with the rest in attack :)
Overheat or fire punch is also up to you, overheat will do more damage and won't take recoil damage from ferrothorn, so i prefer it in this slot

Kyogre

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
Level: 50
EVs: 188 HP / 204 Def / 76 SpA / 4 SpD / 36 Spe
Modest Nature
- Water Spout
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Protect

Completely up to you this spread, but i feel running so much in defence is a tad excessive. Credit to hydreigone for this spread, it does a bunch of things:

(Lots of calcs)

Offensive:

• 76+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan in Heavy Rain: 184-217 (101.6 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 76+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas in Heavy Rain: 186-220 (92 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
• 76+ SpA Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. -1 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 196-232 (108.2 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Defensive
Physical

• -1 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 88-106 (44.2 - 53.2%) -- 18.2% chance to 2HKO
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Explosion vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 168-198 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• -1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 85-102 (42.7 - 51.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
• 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Helping Hand Double-Edge vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 168-198 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• -1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 85-102 (42.7 - 51.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
• 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 77-91 (38.6 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• -1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 51-61 (25.6 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
• 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 152-179 (76.3 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• -1 252 Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 76-91 (38.1 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 252 Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 87-103 (43.7 - 51.7%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
• -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 73-87 (36.6 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 87-103 (43.7 - 51.7%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO

Special

• +2 252 SpA Xerneas Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 182-216 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
• +2 252 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 144-171 (72.3 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252 SpA Choice Specs Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 168-198 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252 SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 79-95 (39.6 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 252 SpA Aerilate Mega Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 46-55 (23.1 - 27.6%) -- 70.7% chance to 4HKO
• 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Thunder vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 118-140 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre in Heavy Rain: 66-78 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
• 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre in Heavy Rain: 49-58 (24.6 - 29.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO

Hope this helped you out a bit :)

 

[Jibaku]

Chantaraya

Hi, one way to figure out what you want for your last Pokemon is to compare your team with some of the common archetypes and some common Pokemon.

Quick threatlist rundown:

Archetypes:
- Big 6 (Smeargle/Xerneas/Groudon/Salamence/Talonflame/Kangaskhan): No real answer to Big 6, Xerneas can be annoying. Safest leads against Xerneas + Smeargle gets shut down by Salamence's Intimidate, Kyurem-B is meh in this matchup. No safe lead vs Kangaskhan + Smeargle either.
- Double Primal: Not a bad matchup because Kyurem-B is actually works against them to some extent, but it cannot take Eruptions which can be a problem. Again, watch out for Intimidate (Salamence mainly)
- RayOgre: Rayquaza looks problematic as it outruns and can OHKO everything except Cress, who doesn't do a whole lot with Ice Beam under Delta Stream. It doesn't outrun Talonflame but Extreme Speed is a threat, and if Talonflame Quick Guards, it can't Protect its teammate from Dragon Ascents. The Kyogre bit isn't as problematic.
- Dialga/Ogre: Outside of the Intimidate issue, a well preserved Groudon + Cress can win. Kyurem-B takes care of Kyogre as well.
- Yveltal/Groudon: Potential to be problematic as nothing can really take Foul Plays.

Some Problematic Pokemon:
- Salamence: Cresselia can check Salamence, but the rest of the team struggles against it. Intimidate in general is annoying to your heavy physical squad, but Salamence is the only Intimidator with a good matchup vs Kangaskhan and Kyurem-B (if it has Draco), which complicates things further.
- Rayquaza: Already mentioned @ Rayogre
- Smeargle: Can be a serious issue since the only things you have that are faster than it are Kangaskhan and Talonflame. They're not very reliable against Smeargle + Xerneas to begin with.
- Yveltal: Mentioned @ Yveltal/Groudon

Fixing all of these would be impossible in one slot (or even six slots), so don't worry. Primary issues are Intimidate, Big 6, and Rayquaza, and I'd probably look to fixing them first. I'm not sure if there's a single Pokemon that can really help you with all those, so you'll probably have to make a bit more edits than just filling in one Pokemon. Big 6 in particular can be tricky to solve and may require you to think outside the box or have your own gameplan. If you need me to, I'll list some weaknesses of the archetype later.

 

[Sardus21]

Hey Sardus21 :D
You mentioned this archetype in the frameworks thread, and i really like the idea
Just looking at some sample teams, i can see that a fairly standard Ferrothorn/Landorus-T/Thundurus-I could work here, which fills your roles of xerneas/kyogre check (ferro), thunder wave/kyogre check (thundy) and groudon check+intimidate support (lando t). This core was used on one of the top cut teams at that PKMN-PH Monthly Tournament:

(Sample Sets)

Landorus-T

Choice Band

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 156 Atk / 92 Def / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
- Superpower

(survives 3 brave birds from talonflame, although you could definitely use 4/252/252)

Assault Vest

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 148 Atk / 92 Def / 12 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
- Superpower

(Pretty similar, now survives an eruption from primal groudon as well as the previous benchmark)
Thundurus

Offensive

Thundurus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
Level: 50
EVs: 36 HP / 220 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wild Charge
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt
- Protect

LO wild charge is able to OHKO less bulky variants of primal kyogre, which is pretty fun to watch, and the HP EVs reach 159, fitting into the HP number rule 10n-1

Defensive

Thundurus (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Def / 4 SpA / 180 SpD / 28 Spe
Calm Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave
- Protect

Survives eruption from primal groudon, and double edge from kang, the rest goes in SpA and speed (no particular benchmark for either, although it does outspeed max spe base 70s)

Ferrothorn

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers / Expert Belt
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Atk / 60 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Protect

Survives 3 water spouts from primal kyogre, OHKOs set up xerneas with gyro ball, expert belt allows you to OHKO most kyogre too

Other options:

Talonflame has very good synergy with mega gardevoir, supplying tailwind support for when it is necessary whilst performing excellently inside TR, handling steel types that gardevoir struggles against. It also does well against groudon and xerneas, and would be a good alternative to either of the double genies, preferably landorus-t, given that both give support vs groudon

(Sample Set)

Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
Level: 50
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 36 Def / 4 SpD / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Tailwind
- Quick Guard

Outspeeds fast kangaskhan
Survives brave bird from opposing talonflame
OHKOs opposing talonflame with its own BB
(Outspeeds opposing 252 spe talonflame inside TR)
Life orb HP number of 159 (10n-1)

A secondary mega would be great when Trick Room isn't required, so mons like mega kangaskhan / mega salamence would be good here:
Salamence gives the team the support it desparately needs against mega rayquaza
Kangaskhan is also great given that it can lead very well with talonflame (if you decide to use it) with its offensive capabilities+fake out support
Possible outcomes
Groudon/Kyogre/Gardevoir-Mega/Ferrothorn/Landorus-T/Thundurus
Groudon/Kyogre/Gardevoir-Mega/Ferrothorn/(Salamence-Mega/Kangaskhan-Mega)/Talonflame
etc

Other Improvements:

Gardevoir-Mega

Gardevoir-Mega (F) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
Level: 50
EVs: 236 HP / 28 Def / 156 SpA / 84 SpD / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Trick Room
- Protect

Just a spread that i quickly came up with now, survives kyogre's water spout and groudon's precipice blades (can't survive rayquaza's dragon ascent, unless you lead intimidate and invest 68 EVs in defence with the current HP). +2 Timid Xerneas' moonblast has a 50% chance to OHKO.
Bisharp isn't that successful in this year's format, so the 20 speed won't really help you out in most situations, so you can put some extra into SpA, although a little more speed would be nice to outspeed TR palkia

Groudon

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Level: 50
EVs: 204 HP / 196 Atk / 4 Def / 104 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 28 SpD / 0 Spe
- Precipice Blades
- Rock Slide
- Overheat
- Protect

A slow groudon would be a little more ideal for when you're inside TR, really up to you though
The spread survives a +1 Dragon Ascent from LO mega rayquaza as well as an earth power from timid groudon, with the rest in attack :)
Overheat or fire punch is also up to you, overheat will do more damage and won't take recoil damage from ferrothorn, so i prefer it in this slot

Kyogre

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
Level: 50
EVs: 188 HP / 204 Def / 76 SpA / 4 SpD / 36 Spe
Modest Nature
- Water Spout
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Protect

Completely up to you this spread, but i feel running so much in defence is a tad excessive. Credit to hydreigone for this spread, it does a bunch of things:

(Lots of calcs)

Offensive:

• 76+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan in Heavy Rain: 184-217 (101.6 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 76+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas in Heavy Rain: 186-220 (92 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
• 76+ SpA Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. -1 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 196-232 (108.2 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Defensive
Physical

• -1 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 88-106 (44.2 - 53.2%) -- 18.2% chance to 2HKO
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Explosion vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 168-198 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• -1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 85-102 (42.7 - 51.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
• 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Helping Hand Double-Edge vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 168-198 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• -1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 85-102 (42.7 - 51.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
• 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 77-91 (38.6 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• -1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 51-61 (25.6 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
• 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 152-179 (76.3 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• -1 252 Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 76-91 (38.1 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 252 Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 87-103 (43.7 - 51.7%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
• -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 73-87 (36.6 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 87-103 (43.7 - 51.7%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO

Special

• +2 252 SpA Xerneas Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 182-216 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
• +2 252 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 144-171 (72.3 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252 SpA Choice Specs Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 168-198 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252 SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 79-95 (39.6 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 252 SpA Aerilate Mega Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 46-55 (23.1 - 27.6%) -- 70.7% chance to 4HKO
• 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Thunder vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 118-140 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre in Heavy Rain: 66-78 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
• 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre in Heavy Rain: 49-58 (24.6 - 29.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO

Hope this helped you out a bit :)

Thank you Draconid997 :D I appreciate your suggestions,I was trying Lando+Thundy in a similar VGC15 vein and I really like how they work together;double genies is still an effective lead imo in this metagame and I already tried them succesfully :)

 

[Draconid997]

Thank you Draconid997 :D I appreciate your suggestions,I was trying Lando+Thundy in a similar VGC15 vein and I really like how they work together;double genies is still an effective lead imo in this metagame and I already tried them succesfully :)

Cool :)
If you're okay with that groudon/kyogre/gardevoir/ferrothorn/thundurus/landorus variant then could we put your team in the archive?

 

[Chantaraya]

Chantaraya

Hi, one way to figure out what you want for your last Pokemon is to compare your team with some of the common archetypes and some common Pokemon.

Quick threatlist rundown:

Archetypes:
- Big 6 (Smeargle/Xerneas/Groudon/Salamence/Talonflame/Kangaskhan): No real answer to Big 6, Xerneas can be annoying. Safest leads against Xerneas + Smeargle gets shut down by Salamence's Intimidate, Kyurem-B is meh in this matchup. No safe lead vs Kangaskhan + Smeargle either.
- Double Primal: Not a bad matchup because Kyurem-B is actually works against them to some extent, but it cannot take Eruptions which can be a problem. Again, watch out for Intimidate (Salamence mainly)
- RayOgre: Rayquaza looks problematic as it outruns and can OHKO everything except Cress, who doesn't do a whole lot with Ice Beam under Delta Stream. It doesn't outrun Talonflame but Extreme Speed is a threat, and if Talonflame Quick Guards, it can't Protect its teammate from Dragon Ascents. The Kyogre bit isn't as problematic.
- Dialga/Ogre: Outside of the Intimidate issue, a well preserved Groudon + Cress can win. Kyurem-B takes care of Kyogre as well.
- Yveltal/Groudon: Potential to be problematic as nothing can really take Foul Plays.

Some Problematic Pokemon:
- Salamence: Cresselia can check Salamence, but the rest of the team struggles against it. Intimidate in general is annoying to your heavy physical squad, but Salamence is the only Intimidator with a good matchup vs Kangaskhan and Kyurem-B (if it has Draco), which complicates things further.
- Rayquaza: Already mentioned @ Rayogre
- Smeargle: Can be a serious issue since the only things you have that are faster than it are Kangaskhan and Talonflame. They're not very reliable against Smeargle + Xerneas to begin with.
- Yveltal: Mentioned @ Yveltal/Groudon

Fixing all of these would be impossible in one slot (or even six slots), so don't worry. Primary issues are Intimidate, Big 6, and Rayquaza, and I'd probably look to fixing them first. I'm not sure if there's a single Pokemon that can really help you with all those, so you'll probably have to make a bit more edits than just filling in one Pokemon. Big 6 in particular can be tricky to solve and may require you to think outside the box or have your own gameplan. If you need me to, I'll list some weaknesses of the archetype later.

Yes Jibaku , please list some weaknesses,it will be really useful.
Thank you for your analysis!

 

[Jibaku]

Big 6 is a powerful archetype that can snowball leads easily and has flexible early game choices to ensure that checking it is difficult. It has a number of weaknesses, but exploiting them may prove to be challenging due to its strong early game. I'm by no means a big 6 expert, so if others can help me fill in that'd be great. Anyways this post is more about general guidelines vs big 6, rather than immediate answers.

- Trick Room: Big 6 is often fast and relatively frail, so setting up Trick Room can reverse the speed advantage very quickly. Challenges to setting this up early include the combined pressure from Fake Out + Dark Void from Kangaskhan + Smeargle, or the sheer power of Xerneas + Smeargle. Set this up midgame once you've weathered the early pressure. Certain Big 6 teams use slower Smeargles to check Trick Room; be careful and don't rely on this too much. Carrying Lum / Chesto / Crafty Shield (usually Smeargle and not Klefki) / Safeguard (Whimsicott, Meowstic) helps with this.

- Frailty: Big 6 can struggle if it doesn't get an advantageous lead matchup, but the offensive nature of the team means that some Pokemon are disposable. If you can beat the leads, make sure you can pressure the win conditions in the back. This means your lead choices should be safe, because Big 6 can also lead with their win condition (Xerneas/Smeargle). If they lead Xerneas/Smeargle and fail, they lose so much momentum. Getting an early Tailwind can also expose the frailty weakness, if they don't have Talonflame out.

- Some safe mons to lead vs big 6: Thundurus, Crobat, Gengar, Salamence (situational; needs thorough gameplan), Smeargle, Kangaskhan (Smeargle+Khan is probably the safest lead duo in big 6 mirrors), Safeguard Lum Bronzong, Whimsicott (Trick Room/Encore/Safeguard is nice), Meowstic.

Common ways to take check Big 6 right now (excluding obscure techs):

Bronzong/Kyogre: You can't lead with these, obviously, and you first need to find safe room to Trick Room. Once it does get set up though, it can be extremely challenging for the Big 6 user to win. Bronzong in rain simply walls everything (and counters Xerneas), while Kyogre drowns them. Nothing in Big 6 can really take on Kyogre.

Thundurus/Fast Groudon: Good lead vs Big 6 in general; does have some weaknesses to Kangaskhan or Talonflames who try to kill Thund t1 with Blitz, but otherwise fairly reliable. You may also need Kyogre in the pack for opposing Groudon. Pairing Thundurus with anything that beats Xerneas works as long as you can take on the Groudon, but remember that having 2 mons weak to Groudon out on the field can be punished very heavily (this pretty much necessitates Kyogre in the back).

Haze Crobat: Old but still works. Paired with Mega Gengar and you have a positive matchup against most leads, although you may want to have Kyogre in the back to take on Groudon. Be careful of Talonflame. Paired with Salamence you can cover a decent amount. You need a backup plan in case they destroy Salamence very early on with Xerneas - preferably something that can take advantage of the full turns of Tailwind, like Eruption Groudon. Careful with Wide Guard.