SS OU Venusaur Sun Team

[Frank M.]

This is my first time using a sun team. After a few adjustments and testing, I've reached a rating of 1543 on the ladder.

https://pokepast.es/c1ed1b31a41f84d2

Venusaur @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Weather Ball
- Growth

Venusaur is the main abuser of sun. Growth in the sun gives it +2 special attack, and chlorophyll doubles it speed. With a life orb, it turns into a fearsome breaker/sweeper, punching huge holes in the opposing team even on resisted hits. Giga Drain helps offset its LO recoil, with sludge bomb being its strongest move STAB move. Weather Ball is a fantastic replacement for hidden power fire, and destroys any steel types that try to come in on venu, such as magearna, ferrothorn, and corviknight. However, because of the LO recoil and lack of investment in bulk, it can be easily worn down, so I'm considering replacing LO with black sludge for better longevity.

Torkoal @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Yawn
- Lava Plume

Torkoal is my lead sun setter. Yawn can provide opportunities to set up stealth rocks by forcing the opponent to either switch out or let a mon fall asleep. Torkoal is also perfectly happy not getting rocks up if it means putting a mon to sleep, getting damage (and potentially a burn) with lava plume to put a mon into KO range, or switching out after setting the sun up. Lastly, I have Rapid spin to clear out hazards should the chance present itself.

Ninetales @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Scorching Sands

I have debated if having two sun setters is worth it or not, but it has worked out splendidly so far. Ninetails is my 2nd drought mon, and while its special attack isnt terribly impressive, it still has enough fire power behind it to put a few dents into a team. Fire Blast is used for its sheer power, as ninetails needs all the damage it can get. Solar Beam was chosen over nasty plot as ninetails usually doesnt get the chance to really make use of it before taking too much damage or being forced out. Solar beam lets it hit water/groud types that may otherwise wall it. Dark pulse for general coverage (and hitting psychics and ghosts), and lastly a new move from the isle of armor DLC, scorching sands. A much appreciated ground type special move that can burn. Poison, rock and opposing fire types can now be hit super effectively.

Weezing-Galar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strange Steam
- Sludge Bomb
- Will-O-Wisp
- Defog / Flamethrower

The rise of fighting types and wider availability of close combat in gen8, as well as the introduction of urshifu, means that fighting and dark resists are highly valued. Galarian Weezing provides just that with its fantastic defensive typing and neutralizing gas to cancel out many crucial abilities (like huge power on azumarill!) Strange steam and sludge bomb are very useful STAB moves in this meta, not to mention the odd confusion or poison chance. Will-o-wisp lets it cripple physical attackers and defog lets it support its team by removing hazards and screens. I have, however, considered swapping it for flamethrower, as being unable to do anything to steel types (especially with sun boosting it) makes it a very appealing option, and defoging my own rocks away isnt very handy.

Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Trick
- Energy Ball

Chandelure acts as a revenge killer/late game cleaner. Scarf lets it outspeed and remove mons like alakazam and dragapult that would otherwise prove very troublesome. With the sun up, it's fire blasts become incredibly powerful, especially after its teammates have softened up the opposing team and layed down rocks. Shadow ball is a general purpose STAB move it can spam, energy ball for the odd water/ground/rock type, and trick for those pesky chanseys/ferrothorns, and other fat, stall mons. Lastly, flash fire is chosen over infiltrator in order to avoid opposing fire types taking advantage of the sun. Pokemon like cinderace, volcarona and rotom-heat will not be able to spam their sun boosted fire moves as freely as they think.

Snorlax @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Darkest Lariat
- Rock Slide
- Heat Crash

Now for this team's tech. Assault vest snorlax with thick fat. Seems like a strange pick on paper, but let me explain my reasoning. As I said before, the extremely common volcarona can take advantage of this team's sun, and its just a deadly pokemon in general. High powered special attackers like magearna and specs dragapult are also very threatening. I struggled to find an answer to such strong pokemon, and snorlax, so far, has proven to be very useful. It's naturally high HP and SPDEF means that I can invest in its ATK and DEF for both added bulk and firepower.

The assault vest+thick fat lets it laugh in volcarona's face, as even a +2 sun-boosted fire blast does anywhere from 37 - 43.8% on the offensive volc set, whereas rock slide will always 1HKO the bulky sets, unless they run max HP and map DEF, in which case it is still an 88.7 - 104.8% roll.

Body slam is a nice STAB move with the chance to paralyze. Darkest lariat lets it smash ghost and psychic types, as well as ignore defensive boosts. Heat crash gives it a powerful fire move (boosted by the sun, lets not forget!) to put the fear of god into any steel type foolish enough to stay in on it. In the sun, it will 1HKO shift gear magearna every time, and is a roll of 75 - 89% out of sun. PhysDef Corviknight eats 45 - 53% outside of sun and gets 2HKO'd with sun.

Obviously, lax doesnt like fighting types. Thats why weezing makes for such a good partner! Chandelure can also switch into fighting type moves, albeit much riskier with the prevalence of dark type moves like knock off. Likewise, lax can also switch into the special moves that rest of the team doesnt want to, like dragapult's shadow ball. Burns spread from its teammates can also mitigate its weaker DEF, naturally.

And I think that about covers it.

 

[Cri]

why would snorlax have heat crash? there are enough fire moves in the team.

 

[Frank M.]

why would snorlax have heat crash? there are enough fire moves in the team.

Because it destroys magearna, corviknight, ferrothorn, magnezone, physdef tangrowth and many other popular steel types that would wall it otherwise. It also gets boosted by sun.

I'll ask you, why shouldnt lax run heat crash?

 

[sufys]

Don't run assault vest on snorlax. With this it lacks any form of recovery so you still lose to volcarona and magearna in the long run. I suggest you run this set for snorlax:
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Body Slam
- Rest
- Heat Crash It does the exact same thing but deals with magearna and volcarona more effectively while being a threatening set-up sweeper with curse. it has sustain so can actually take hits from Volcarona and recover. It can also switch in on Hydreigon and Kyurem. You can run 8 speed evs on snorlax if you wish to help with the matchup vs other snorlax.

 

[Frank M.]

Don't run assault vest on snorlax. With this it lacks any form of recovery so you still lose to volcarona and magearna in the long run.

Does it, though?

Bulky calm mind magearna at +2 does 60.7 - 71.8% with fleur cannon while heat crash from lax does 91.4 - 107.9% in the sun, with an 81.3% chance to onshot with rocks up.
Shift gear magearna has to bank on focus blast and only does 52 - 61.6% at +1, and is oneshot by HC in sun.

Shift gear at +1 vs your suggested spread does 50.3 - 59.5%. Ok, slightly less damage, but HC from your lax set in sun fails to KO, doing 83 - 98.3% and needs rocks up just have a 31.3 chance to oneshot.
Bulky calm mind at +2 vs your set does 58.9 - 69.4% with fleur cannon. Same as before; slightly less, but lax HC still only does 67.2 - 79.3% in sun and with rocks up.

I already did calcs for volc with my set. Your suggest set, again, takes less damage but fails to significantly damage volc in return, let alone oneshot it.

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Body Slam
- Rest
- Heat Crash It does the exact same thing but deals with magearna and volcarona more effectively while being a threatening set-up sweeper with curse. it has sustain so can actually take hits from Volcarona and recover. It can also switch in on Hydreigon and Kyurem. You can run 8 speed evs on snorlax if you wish to help with the matchup vs other snorlax.

I'm a little skeptical as to how curse-rest lax is a "threatening set-up sweeper" in the current metagame, with ghost types, fighting type coverage and the crit happy urshifu running rampent. Not to mention mons like haze toxapex, roar hippowdon, whirlwind skarmory or taunt kommo-o.

So I am going to need a bit more convincing on this set's viability.

 

[sufys]

Does it, though?

Bulky calm mind magearna at +2 does 60.7 - 71.8% with fleur cannon while heat crash from lax does 91.4 - 107.9% in the sun, with an 81.3% chance to onshot with rocks up.
Shift gear magearna has to bank on focus blast and only does 52 - 61.6% at +1, and is oneshot by HC in sun.

Shift gear at +1 vs your suggested spread does 50.3 - 59.5%. Ok, slightly less damage, but HC from your lax set in sun fails to KO, doing 83 - 98.3% and needs rocks up just have a 31.3 chance to oneshot.
Bulky calm mind at +2 vs your set does 58.9 - 69.4% with fleur cannon. Same as before; slightly less, but lax HC still only does 67.2 - 79.3% in sun and with rocks up.

I already did calcs for volc with my set. Your suggest set, again, takes less damage but fails to significantly damage volc in return, let alone oneshot it.



I'm a little skeptical as to how curse-rest lax is a "threatening set-up sweeper" in the current metagame, with ghost types, fighting type coverage and the crit happy urshifu running rampent. Not to mention mons like haze toxapex, roar hippowdon, whirlwind skarmory or taunt kommo-o.

So I am going to need a bit more convincing on this set's viability.

You do lose in the long run to those pokemon regardless of sun since you are weaker and lack recovery. Running attack doesnt mean anything since it makes you take more damage. You are somehow expecting your snorlax not to be chipped enough for volc to kill. you need sustain. If a mon is only there to check 2 threats, then its probably not worth using. Snorlax with rest can continue to check these things throughout the game. Also you are assuming that every magearna set is the same. Your snorlax gets chipped by all sortys of hazards throughout the game and has no way to recover. If your opponent keeps rocks up and keeps bringing in magearna, your snorlax will continue to be chipped and will have no way to recover. Eventually this will be a lot easier to break through. Also btw if somebody says something about your team they likely know what they are doing. If this is an RMT then why do you not seeem like somebody who is willing to accept help with their team?

 

[Frank M.]

You do lose in the long run to those pokemon regardless of sun since you are weaker and lack recovery. Running attack doesnt mean anything since it makes you take more damage.

Walk me through this; your logic is that "doing more damage doesnt matter because you take more damage if you dont invest in bulk, so running bulk is always better than running offense."

You are somehow expecting your snorlax not to be chipped enough for volc to kill. you need sustain. If a mon is only there to check 2 threats, then its probably not worth using.

If I dont want my lax to get chipped to the point that volc can kill it, I simply dont switch it in to take unnecessary damage. I will switch him in when he needs to be in.

Thats like saying magnezone is not worth using because it only checks steel types.

In my testing, there were some games were lax didnt do much. There were also some games were lax was invaluable. Thats true of any pokemon; not every single mon on your team is going to have a role to play every single match.

Snorlax with rest can continue to check these things throughout the game.

Lax with rest is also a sitting duck. The forced sleep turns will give any half decent team the perfect opportunity to set up and attempt a sweep.

Pokemon like ferrothorn, toxapex and chansey are really good at being passive and walling mons, because they have the tools to do it. Curse-rest lax is not one of those pokemon IMO.

Also you are assuming that every magearna set is the same.

No, I'm looking at the best/most common sets and basing my arguments on those, because they are the ones most people will be using.

I'm sure an iron defense, rollout, rest, agility magearna set is out there somewhere, but its not worth preparing for.

Your snorlax gets chipped by all sortys of hazards throughout the game and has no way to recover. If your opponent keeps rocks up and keeps bringing in magearna, your snorlax will continue to be chipped and will have no way to recover.

Good thing I have a spinner and defogger, huh?

Eventually this will be a lot easier to break through. Also btw if somebody says something about your team they likely know what they are doing. If this is an RMT then why do you not seeem like somebody who is willing to accept help with their team?

Well, besides you, only one other person has commented, and they just asked why lax had heat crash. I would think its pretty obvious why, but ya know.

You have not done anything to convince me why curse-lax is the better set to run on this team. All you have done is said that it takes less damage, has recovery, and can potentially set up a sweep. Wow, great, awesome.

Problem is, thats not what I feel my team needs it to do. My lax set aims to soak up a hit from dangerous special attackers and significantly damage, if not KO them in return. I feel that your set is too passive and lacks the immediate damage output I'm looking for.

Lets take alolan marowak for example. It's incredibly common at the moment. What does your set do against it 1v1?

Dies in 3 hits to either flare blitz or bonemerang, while you hit back for 13-15% with heat crash. You could set up 1 curse, then you're forced to rest and do nothing for two turns. At +1 you're 4HKO'd, but if they're running swords dance, well, you just lose right then and there. Cool.

What does my set do against it 1v1?

With my 252 def evs and 252 atk evs, lax is 3HKO'd by blitz or bonemerang (same as yours), but 2HKOs maro in return with darkest lariat.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Pokemon like magearna and volcarona are "win conditions;" if they set up, they can potentially win the game on their own. My set aims to stop those win conditions in their tracks. If all lax does in a match is deny them their win condition, then it's done its job.

You have not provided any sort of evidence that your set accomplishes anything. No calcs, and no testing either, I'm assuming.

Have you tested this team on the ladder? Have you tested my lax set? And have you then tested your set in its place to compare its performance?

The reason I am not receptive to your suggestions is because you are not showing me that you understand what you're talking about. You're supposed to suggest ways to improve the teams you rate, but I think that if I ran your set, my team would be made worse, not better!

 

[camelC635]

lol its ur choice. The team would definitely be made better. Stop being so agressive. Why the heck did you come here? You obviously do not want any help whatsoever and you just feel offended by the fact someone is making suggestions that are trying to better what you have. Nobody came here to waste their time on someone like you. Your team has obviously got flaws. I am only here to help you.

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but from what I've gathered from previous messages, you feel that since you gave feedback, the poster is obligated to accept that feedback. You say, "lol its ur choice", but the following and previous statements do not support that you truly realize this.

Also btw if somebody says something about your team they likely know what they are doing. If this is an RMT then why do you not seeem like somebody who is willing to accept help with their team?

While I have made my first post only recently, I have been viewing the OU RMT section since gen 7. In some cases, it is quite evident that just because someone says something about your team, it doesn't mean that they know what they are doing. A little while ago, before the DLC came out, I saw a RMT for a decently solid balance team. One of the raters said that the team was "too passive", and suggested that they turn it into HO (by replacing the defensive core with a webber and sweepers). This was bad advice, and the poster was free to ignore it.

This brings me to my next point. There is no consequence for giving feedback that someone doesn't accept. This development would have been avoided if after the poster rejected your suggestion, you moved on and didn't force the issue. But instead, after he gave reasoning for his set against your argument that CurseLax is a better Volcarona counter and it can sweep (it could before, but not now with Urshifu everywhere), you changed the point to "it is worn down by hazards and chip damage easier" despite the fact that Rest is not good recovery against residual damage, and he has two forms of hazard removal. After he gives further reasoning, you resort to, "Why are you even here if you won't accept any suggestions?" It isn't that he won't accept any suggestions. It is that he won't accept your suggestion, and you must live with that.

Now, I will give this team some feedback of my own. If the poster accepts it, that's cool with me, and if he doesn't and gives a valid reason, that's cool with me too. I will not try to force the issue, nor will I interpret rejection as an unwillingness to accept any ideas.

The main thing that I noticed when looking at this team is that all of its offensive threats are special attackers. While this may not be a huge deal in certain match-ups, as Sun is pretty good at breaking through defensive cores, Chansey (especially on stall) is a big issue for this team right now. If you do not land the Trick with Chandelure, your team has no way to break through it, as Venusaur will be worn down by the combination of Seismic Toss and LO. While Venu could be changed to Black Sludge to mitigate this, it isn't a solution to the greater problem, so I suggest that you should add a physical attacker like Cinderace to the team.

Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pyro Ball
- High Jump Kick
- Sucker Punch
- Zen Headbutt/U-turn

The set I've provided is pretty standard, and can be changed as needed. I prefer Adamant Cinderace for the extra damage it provides, but you could easily make it Jolly to outspeed mons like Gengar. I've given it Heavy Duty Boots, but if you feel confident in your ability to remove hazards before bringing it in, you could just as easily give it a boosting item. Pyro Ball is Cinderace's strongest attack in sun, and High Jump Kick is an option against mons that resist it. Sucker Punch is great for revenging the likes of Alakazam, Dragapult, and others. Zen Headbutt is a move that hits Toxapex, but U-turn is an alternative that gives you some extra momentum. As for which mon to replace for Cinderace, I would go with either Ninetales or Chandelure. Personally, I feel that Sun teams don't need two sun setters, but if you have found it beneficial to keep Ninetales, go for it. Cinderace covers the same mons that you said that Chandelure is for, and while you lose Flash Fire, scarf Chandelure is not a Cinderace or Volcarona check and you already have Snorlax for the latter. While you do lose access to Trick and ghost typing, it is an option if you really don't want to get rid of Ninetales.

I hope that you find my feedback slightly helpful, and I hope that others will provide more feedback without trying to force you to accept it. Good luck with laddering!

 

[Frank M.]

The main thing that I noticed when looking at this team is that all of its offensive threats are special attackers. While this may not be a huge deal in certain match-ups, as Sun is pretty good at breaking through defensive cores, Chansey (especially on stall) is a big issue for this team right now. If you do not land the Trick with Chandelure, your team has no way to break through it, as Venusaur will be worn down by the combination of Seismic Toss and LO. While Venu could be changed to Black Sludge to mitigate this, it isn't a solution to the greater problem, so I suggest that you should add a physical attacker like Cinderace to the team.

Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pyro Ball
- High Jump Kick
- Sucker Punch
- Zen Headbutt/U-turn

The set I've provided is pretty standard, and can be changed as needed. I prefer Adamant Cinderace for the extra damage it provides, but you could easily make it Jolly to outspeed mons like Gengar. I've given it Heavy Duty Boots, but if you feel confident in your ability to remove hazards before bringing it in, you could just as easily give it a boosting item. Pyro Ball is Cinderace's strongest attack in sun, and High Jump Kick is an option against mons that resist it. Sucker Punch is great for revenging the likes of Alakazam, Dragapult, and others. Zen Headbutt is a move that hits Toxapex, but U-turn is an alternative that gives you some extra momentum. As for which mon to replace for Cinderace, I would go with either Ninetales or Chandelure. Personally, I feel that Sun teams don't need two sun setters, but if you have found it beneficial to keep Ninetales, go for it. Cinderace covers the same mons that you said that Chandelure is for, and while you lose Flash Fire, scarf Chandelure is not a Cinderace or Volcarona check and you already have Snorlax for the latter. While you do lose access to Trick and ghost typing, it is an option if you really don't want to get rid of Ninetales.

I hope that you find my feedback slightly helpful, and I hope that others will provide more feedback without trying to force you to accept it. Good luck with laddering!

Thank you for the suggestion! You are right that chansey poses a problem for this team.

When I am next able to, I will try laddering with two versions of the team; one with cinder replacing ninetails, and one with cinder replacing chandelure, and see how they work.

 

[joaoestevao]

I tested your team at Pokémon Showdown. I found the Pokémon builds very well built and thought out. I don't know if the team was for singles or doubles. I tested it on the SS OR Singles tier. In singles, Venusaur did very well. I defeated a used person ONLY Giga Drain. I loved your team. Congratulations.

 

[Frank M.]

So after extensive laddering with both versions of the team (one with cinderace replacing ninetails and one with cinderace replacing chandelure), here are my thoughts:

-I have not really noticed any significant increase in success due to using different pokemon. Though, that could also be because I'm not very good, lol.
-having only 1 sun setter wasnt as bad as I thought it would be
-cinderace absolutely puts in work
-chandelure being absent puts a hamper on this team's damage potential
-no real switch ins for strong ground types
-lacks immediate wall-breaking potential/damage output, unless venusaur gets multiple boosts
-struggles vs fat stall pokemon

I wonder if it'd be worth swapping scarf for specs on chandelure, and maybe seeing if I could fit alolan marowak onto this team.