Venusaur [4N] Mixed Tank*

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Xia

Xia

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All credit for this set goes to Flamewheeler (I grabbed the set from here and tested it, I hope you don't mind that I wrote up the analysis).

Once twashley, Colonel_Marcus, or another mod would like this set to be merged with j. franky's full revamp, feel free to do so.

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http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/venusaur

[SET]
name: Mixed Attacker
move 1: Sludge Bomb
move 2: Power Whip
move 3: Sleep Powder
move 4: Synthesis / Leech Seed
item: Life Orb
nature: Mild
evs: 64 HP / 164 Atk / 96 SpA /184 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Venusaur adopts a tried and true method of sweeping with this set: cripple the foe with status and attack while it's immobilized. Sludge Bomb and Power Whip are your two STAB attacking options. Sleep Powder provides Venusaur with the safety net it and its teammates enjoy. Synthesis keeps Venusaur healthy from Life Orb recoil while also refreshing it after weathering a few blows. Leech Seed is another recovery option available to Venusaur that becomes extremely effective with this set; this Venusaur can 2HKO Clefable and deal huge blows to opposing Grass-types, the most common counters to Leech Seed.</p>

<p>The EV spread is designed to milk as much out of Venusaur as possible. The Attack EVs guarentee 2HKOs on Slowbro and Chansey with Power Whip, while the Special Attack EVs grant Venusaur a clean OHKO on Sceptile and other Grass-types who may try to wall this set. The Speed EVs allow Venusaur to outrun Adamant Honchkrow if the need arises, but know that Sucker Punch will still do a hefty amount of damage should your opponent choose that attack over Brave Bird. Alternatively, this set can sacrifice the HP and four Attack EVs and maximize Speed, keeping the likes of Feraligatr, Blaziken, and other Venusaur from outpacing Venusaur.</p>

<p>Unlike many other sets, this Venusaur will have troubles against Substitute + Calm Mind Raikou. Therefore, it is recommended that you either pair Venusaur up with a Pokemon who is able to do this job or substitute Earthquake for Power Whip. Pokemon that would satisfy the first option include threats such as Encore Clefable or Donphan. Clefable can come in on the turn Raikou starts setting up and Encore it to lock it into a useless Calm Mind or HP draining Substitute, while Donphan can choose to either threaten with Earthquake or phaze with Roar.</p>

<p>Although Sleep Powder does give it problems, Cresselia walls this set effectively, thanks to its huge defenses. Calm Mind makes Power Whip Venusaur's only effective attack to combat Cresselia with, although boosted STAB Psychics will be ending Venusaur in short order. Therefore, most people pair Venusaur up with Dark-types who are capable of overtaking Cresselia. Absol sees the most use as a Cresselia counter, and its immunity to Psychic attacks makes it an even better choice to pair up with Venusaur. Swords Dance and Night Slash or Sucker Punch easily puts huge dents in the new UU addition, mitigating its effectiveness for the rest of the battle.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, both Venusaur and Absol hate status, meaning Aromatherapy support is very much enjoyed. Clefable, Miltank, and Altaria are all capable of providing this service to your team, but for type synergy with both Absol and Venusaur, Altaria is probably your best choice. Altaria resists Fighting- and Fire-type attacks, although it does share a common Ice-type weakness with Venusaur. As always, entry hazards are also appreciated.</p>
 
Mixed Tank doesn't seem to be an appropriate name, since it isn't really a "tank" (it can take hits, but not like other tanks such as Regirock and Hariyama). A Simple "Mixed Attacker" would suffice for the name imo.
 
True, though I had expected a disagreement somewhere other than the name. =P

If a mod decides to check this out before too long, will you please change th ethread title so it reflects the set's name please?
 
I have actual comments now :)

This set does have some minor trouble with taking out Raikou (which is why Venusaur is used so much in the first place) with Power Whip as the only physical attack (it doesn't OHKO after Sub). I'd at least mention Earthquake for a more surefire way of stopping Raikou (also avoiding having Aggron set up on you is nice). Power Whip should obviously stay the main option by a long shot though.

Also, maybe mention a full Speed set with no EVs in HP? Unless the 68 HP EVs do something in particular, I don't see why I'd let Gallade / other Venusaur / Blaziken / Feraligatr / etc outspeed me. I used a similar set with max Speed (max attack instead of split though) and it worked quite well.

Nitpicks:

- 184 EVs is enough to outspeed Honchkrow, so you can dump one more EV into another stat.

- It's more correct to say 92 EVs instead of 94 EVs (in SpA).
 
Hello Xia!

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Xia said:
[SET]
name: Mixed Attacker
move 1: Sludge Bomb
move 2: Power Whip
move 3: Sleep Powder
move 4: Synthesis
item: Life Orb
nature: Mild
evs: 68 HP / 160 Atk / 94 SpA /188 Spe

The set is titled Mixed Attacker, so the attacking moves are generally the most important for this set's success. Therefore, the attacking moves should be mentioned first.

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Venusaur adopts a tried and true method of sweeping with this set: cripple the foe with status and attack while it's down immobilized (I think immobilized fits the sentence better). Sleep Powder provides Venusaur with the safety net it and its teammates enjoy. Sludge Bomb and Power Whip are your two STAB attacking options. Synthesis keeps Venusaur healthy from feeling Life Orb recoil while also refreshing it after weathering a few blows.</p>

Now that the set order is changed, change the set description order.

<p>The EV spread is designed to milk as much out of Venusaur as possible. The Attack EVs guarentee 2HKOs on Slowbro and Chansey with Power Whip, while the Special Attack EVs grant Venusaur a clean OHKO on Sceptile and other Grass-types who may try to wall this set. The Speed EVs allow Venusaur to outpace (try to avoid the use of "outspeed") Adamant Honchkrow if the need arises, but know that Sucker Punch will still do a hefty amount of damage should your opponent choose that attack over Brave Bird.</p>

<p>The number one best counter to this set is Honchkrow. It can come in on Sleep Powder, thanks to Insomnia, and threaten with either Sucker Punch or, if it's in good health, Brave Bird, while also resisting Power Whip. To combat Honchkrow, many players add a wall, such as Registeel or Milotic, to their teams. Honchkrow has a hard time getting through Registeel's metallic hide, while it can cripple Honchkrow with Thunder Wave. Milotic has the ability to outlast most Honchkrow, thanks to Recover, and can net some big damage with Ice Beam. Will-O-Wisp is another great way to stop Honchkrow, especially when it comes from Weezing; its huge Defense stat and resistance to Superpower makes it an ideal Honchkrow counter.</p>

<p>Ironically, this set pairs up well with Life Orb Honchkrow. Honchkrow's immunities to Ground- and Psychic-type attacks go a long way in keeping Venusaur alive, while Venusaur provides a switch-in against Electric-type attacks. Both of these Pokemon do share a weakness to Ice, however, and this overlap should be covered by the rest of your team. Slowbro is an excellent sponge for Ice-type attacks, as are Clefable and Chansey. Both of the latter options can provide Aromatherapy and Wish support simultaneously; neither Honchkrow nor Venusaur takes status very well.</p>
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Good write-up Xia!
 
Heysup said:
I have actual comments now :)

This set does have some minor trouble with taking out Raikou (which is why Venusaur is used so much in the first place) with Power Whip as the only physical attack (it doesn't OHKO after Sub). I'd at least mention Earthquake for a more surefire way of stopping Raikou (also avoiding having Aggron set up on you is nice). Power Whip should obviously stay the main option by a long shot though.

Also, maybe mention a full Speed set with no EVs in HP? Unless the 68 HP EVs do something in particular, I don't see why I'd let Gallade / other Venusaur / Blaziken / Feraligatr / etc outspeed me. I used a similar set with max Speed (max attack instead of split though) and it worked quite well.

Nitpicks:

- 184 EVs is enough to outspeed Honchkrow, so you can dump one more EV into another stat.

- It's more correct to say 92 EVs instead of 94 EVs (in SpA).
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Thank you for mentioning the Raikou problem; I'll make sure to add some more comments about it. The reason I didn't list Earthquake as an option was because I've never had a Raikou switch in against me (nor did I use this set as my Raikou check).

I'll make a note of the alternative spread. Actually, I believe the set you played with has already been added to the full revamp thread that j. franky's doing. =P

Thanks for catching those nitpicks as well.
Fuzznip said:
Hello Xia!

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Good write-up Xia!
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Thanks Fuzznip! =]
 
Well, the 64 evs in HP were left when it was my original set with EQ over sleep powder, but I left it just for some bulk. It could be kept if a quiet nature was used (I was gonna test it), since I didn't outrun things like gatr and such. It can probably be taken off now and put into speed, but it takes away some bulk that helps it take surfs and other attacks from things like milotic and take some physical attacks since it loses some physical defense from using a mild nature.

@ Heysup: I think the 188 speed evs gave it a jump point, so I decided to keep it, but I don't remember exactly why. Also, it may not be able to 1HKO raikou, but nor can Raikou do the same to it. Most don't even run hidden power ice and the offensive booster can't dodge a sleep powder unless it misses of course. Also, I wouldn't suggest EQ because that just kind of defeats the purppose of the whole set. (surprise factor and keeping it mixed) unless, of course you remove sleep powder for it, but I don't know about that one...EQ doesn't even OHKO with this set, but moving HP into attack could help.


Xia said:
All credit for this set goes to Flamewheeler (I grabbed the set from here and tested it, I hope you don't mind that I wrote up the analysis).

Once twashley, Colonel_Marcus, or another mod would like this set to be merged with j. franky's full revamp, feel free to do so.

3.png

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/venusaur

[SET]
name: Mixed Attacker
move 1: Sludge Bomb
move 2: Power Whip
move 3: Sleep Powder
move 4: Synthesis
item: Life Orb
nature: Mild
evs: 68 HP / 160 Atk / 96 SpA /184 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Venusaur adopts a tried and true method of sweeping with this set: cripple the foe with status and attack while it's immobilized. Sludge Bomb and Power Whip are your two STAB attacking options. Sleep Powder provides Venusaur with the safety net it and its teammates enjoy. Synthesis keeps Venusaur healthy from Life Orb recoil while also refreshing it after weathering a few blows.</p>

<p>The EV spread is designed to milk as much out of Venusaur as possible. The Attack EVs guarentee 2HKOs on Slowbro and Chansey with Power Whip, while the Special Attack EVs grant Venusaur a clean OHKO on Sceptile and other Grass-types who may try to wall this set. The Speed EVs allow Venusaur to outrun Adamant Honchkrow if the need arises, but know that Sucker Punch will still do a hefty amount of damage should your opponent choose that attack over Brave Bird. Alternatively, this set can sacrifice the HP EVs and maximize Speed, keeping the likes of Feraligatr, Blaziken, and other Venusaur from outpacing Venusaur.</p>

<p>Unlike many other sets, this Venusaur will have troubles against Substitute + Calm Mind Raikou. Therefore, it is recommended that you either pair Venusaur up with a Pokemon who is able to do this job or substitute Earthquake for Power Whip. Pokemon that would satisfy the first option include threats such as Encore Clefable or Donphan. Clefable can come in on the turn Raikou starts setting up and Encore it to lock it into a useless Calm Mind or HP draining Substitute, while Donphan can choose to either threaten with Earthquake or phaze with Roar.</p>

<p>The number one best counter to this set is Honchkrow.(Wrong. Honchy dies to a slude bomb on the switch in. Power whip hits it pretty damn hard too.) It can come in on Sleep Powder, thanks to Insomnia, and threaten with either Sucker Punch or, if it's in good health, Brave Bird, while also resisting Power Whip. To combat Honchkrow, many players add a wall, such as Registeel or Milotic, to their teams. Honchkrow has a hard time getting through Registeel's metallic hide,(Not true, with a combination of BB and super pwer or just 2 super powers, honchy kills it. Rhyperior is a great counter to non Hidden Power Grass variants which are pretty rare imo) while it can cripple Honchkrow with Thunder Wave. Milotic has the ability to outlast most Honchkrow, thanks to Recover, and can net some big damage with Ice Beam. Will-O-Wisp is another great way to stop Honchkrow, especially when it comes from Weezing; its huge Defense stat and resistance to Superpower makes it an ideal Honchkrow counter.</p>

<p>Ironically, this set pairs up well with Life Orb Honchkrow. Honchkrow's immunities to Ground- and Psychic-type attacks go a long way in keeping Venusaur alive, while Venusaur provides a switch-in against Electric-type attacks. Both of these Pokemon do share a weakness to Ice, however, and this overlap should be covered by the rest of your team. Slowbro is an excellent sponge for Ice-type attacks, as are Clefable and Chansey. Both of the latter options can provide Aromatherapy and Wish support simultaneously; neither Honchkrow nor Venusaur take status very well.</p>
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That's all I've got for now. Thanks again!
 
Flamewheeler said:
Well, the 64 evs in HP were left when it was my original set with EQ over sleep powder, but I left it just for some bulk. It could be kept if a quiet nature was used (I was gonna test it), since I didn't outrun things like gatr and such. It can probably be taken off now and put into speed, but it takes away some bulk that helps it take surfs and other attacks from things like milotic and take some physical attacks since it loses some physical defense from using a mild nature.

@ Heysup: I think the 188 speed evs gave it a jump point, so I decided to keep it, but I don't remember exactly why. Also, it may not be able to 1HKO raikou, but nor can Raikou do the same to it. Most don't even run hidden power ice and the offensive booster can't dodge a sleep powder unless it misses of course. Also, I wouldn't suggest EQ because that just kind of defeats the purppose of the whole set. (surprise factor and keeping it mixed) unless, of course you remove sleep powder for it, but I don't know about that one...
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At any rate, I've decided to satisy these two options by moving the jump point from Speed to Special Attack, while leaving the HP EVs in the actual set. A mention of the alternative max Speed spread is listed in the EV paragraph, although I'd be willing to exchange these if other people feel they should be. Earthquake was given a small mention (I agree with Flamewheeler about Earthquake) at the begining of the team options paragraphs. If these changes aren't enough, I'd be happy to make more changes until the set is as perfect as possible.
 
Xia said:
At any rate, I've decided to satisy these two options by moving the jump point from Speed to Special Attack, while leaving the HP EVs in the actual set. A mention of the alternative max Speed spread is listed in the EV paragraph, although I'd be willing to exchange these if other people feel they should be. Earthquake was given a small mention (I agree with Flamewheeler about Earthquake) at the begining of the team options paragraphs. If these changes aren't enough, I'd be happy to make more changes until the set is as perfect as possible.
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It looks pretty good atm. I noticed the new info in the write-up halfway through my post xD. I was actually going to try to write something up for myself in j. Franky's thread, but I didn't think this set would actually be useful after the metagame shifts once again, but since it makes a pretty good stall breaker outside of countering what it needs to, it should continue to have some use...I hope. If I think of a cool name, can I name it? I know other people have named their sets in the past, it just sounds like a cool idea. ^_^
 
I wouldn't have a problem with this, although it'll come down to the mods as to whether it should go by that name or another (they tend to like names that describe the set's strategy).

EDIT: Flamewheeler, which other Pokemon have you had troubles with? Honchkrow's been the most problematic for me (though I tend to SLeep Powder first, not Sludge Bomb), and yet you feel otherwise. Care to elaborate?

EDIT: Will rearrange the EV spread. Thanks Flamewheeler.
 
Oh, I changed the HP evs to 64 for a LO number. I updated the set on my team, but not anywhere else (maybe my rmt, but idr). So, that extra 4 evs can go somewhere else.

Edit: How about (Fiery) Wall Breaker, Mixed Sweeper, or Mixed Attacker? Fiery because sythesis just keeps it going and it fights with fire in it's eyes (cheesy, it's just a slight reference to me, I guess lol) The name still fits the set too; it breaks walls, mix sweeps, just as you said and attacks with both, special and physical attacks.
 
Flamewheeler said:
It looks pretty good atm. I noticed the new info in the write-up halfway through my post xD. I was actually going to try to write something up for myself in j. Franky's thread, but I didn't think this set would actually be useful after the metagame shifts once again, but since it makes a pretty good stall breaker outside of countering what it needs to, it should continue to have some use...I hope. If I think of a cool name, can I name it? I know other people have named their sets in the past, it just sounds like a cool idea. ^_^
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Don't go down that road trust me :P. Mods / everyone dislikes naming sets based around anything but the Pokemon's role / function. Not to mention people tend to get angry about this -_-.

Besides, I don't see what makes this Venusaur so different from the Mixed Attacker on every other analysis. It does have some utility I guess, so you could call it Utility Mixed Attacker. I'd say "Mixed Attacker" is best still ^_^
 
Heysup said:
Don't go down that road trust me :P. Mods / everyone dislikes naming sets based around anything but the Pokemon's role / function. Not to mention people tend to get angry about this -_-.

Besides, I don't see what makes this Venusaur so different from the Mixed Attacker on every other analysis. It does have some utility I guess, so you could call it Utility Mixed Attacker. I'd say "Mixed Attacker" is best still ^_^
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Idk why anyone would get mad lol, I wouldn't. What mixed attacking sets are you talking about? I'm thinking the really bulky ones, if so, this one is different for its attacking prowess. It breaks stall instead of just countering raikou and remaining stall weak. It also brings some offense to the table and doesn't feel like dead weight on a team. But seriously, can I see those sets? I am really not sure of which ones you are referring to xD.
 
There's a ton of mixed since in the analyses (just go through them, you'll find at least 1 Pokemon in 5 has a mixed set). They are either called Mixed, Life Orb, Mixed Attacker, Mixed Sweeper, or something else (like Anti-lead) if they are a lead.

Off the top of my head? Blaziken, Nidoking, Charizard, Magmortar, Houndoom, Clefable (yes even Clefable), Sceptile, etc. All have mixed sets.

I have seen this naming issue come up before (I can't remember which analysis it was for, possibly LR's Arcanine), and lots of people got defensive and said it was stupid to name sets. Even if the sets are revolutionary (unfortunately, not the case for a mixed Venusaur, but either way), people are against naming sets.
 
Heysup said:
There's a ton of mixed since in the analyses (just go through them, you'll find at least 1 Pokemon in 5 has a mixed set). They are either called Mixed, Life Orb, Mixed Attacker, Mixed Sweeper, or something else (like Anti-lead) if they are a lead.

Off the top of my head? Blaziken, Nidoking, Charizard, Magmortar, Houndoom, Clefable (yes even Clefable), Sceptile, etc. All have mixed sets.

I have seen this naming issue come up before (I can't remember which analysis it was for, possibly LR's Arcanine), and lots of people got defensive and said it was stupid to name sets. Even if the sets are revolutionary (unfortunately, not the case for a mixed Venusaur, but either way), people are against naming sets.
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Oh, haha. I misunderstood you. I thought you were talking about other mix venusaur, my apologies. Well, I guess he still counters raikou (from my experience) pretty well and he lacks a SR weakness, although others mixed attackers do too. He also offers some surprise factor. Either way, he works pretty well in this stage of the metagame. This is the exactly why I was reluctant to even try suggesting this set.
 
We don't name them after people because it's less professional and it can be confusing for new members reading the analyses. I'll give this a once-over later today along with franky's, Xia.
 
Mention Clefable as a counter, it can't be put asleep and it can Trick a Flame Orb to Venusaur. I'ven using that kind of Clefable lately and it works very well.
 
239 Atk vs 182 Def & 394 HP (120 Base Power): 220 - 261 (55.84% - 66.24%)

Clefable is no counter by any means, especially without Leftovers.
 
Just a few extremely minor nitpicks, nice work.

<p>The EV spread is designed to milk as much out of Venusaur as possible. The Attack EVs guarantee 2HKOs on Slowbro and Chansey with Power Whip, while the Special Attack EVs grant Venusaur a clean OHKO on Sceptile and other Grass-types who may try to wall this set.
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<p>A well-predicted Honchkrow switch-in can end this set fairly quickly. It can come in on Sleep Powder, thanks to Insomnia, and threaten with either Sucker Punch or, if it's in good health, Brave Bird, while also resisting Power Whip.
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Also, I've seen Leech Seed > Synthesis variants of this set. Since it does 2HKO Clefable and deal with most other Grass-types, two main counters to Leech Seed, it looks like a viable alternate option, although I can't personally vouch for it.
 
Eo Ut Mortus said:
Also, I've seen Leech Seed > Synthesis variants of this set. Since it does 2HKO Clefable and deal with most other Grass-types, two main counters to Leech Seed, it looks like a viable alternate option, although I can't personally vouch for it.
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It sounds ok, but just remember, when facing other venusaur, you won't have reliable recovery, meaning you will most likely lose to them.
 
I'll go ahead and make a mention of it in the set comments Eo Ut Mortus; thanks for your input.
 
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