Utility discussion: Rapid Spin

Dragontamer

I've yet to see a discussion based on an attack and then working from there... so here is my attempt :-) I should note that this is not an analysis for "who is the best rapid spinner". The purpose here is to list all the possibilities of rapid spinner and discuss them. There seems to be quite a selection of rapid spinners so just sticking to the standard may not be the best thing for your team.

http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/rapidspin.shtml

Rapid Spin. Physical
20 Base, 40 PP, Normal

Reason for using it: With only 20 base power, the only good reason to use this attack is to get rid of spikes, stealth rock, and toxic spikes.

Fully Evolved Pokemon who can learn it
Blastoise
Sandslash
Starmie
Forretress
Donphan
Hitmontop
Torkoal
Claydol

Pokemon with Rapid Spin as an Egg Move
Tentacruel
Cloyster
Hitmonlee
Hitmonchan
Kabutops
Delibird
Armaldo

Pokemon who resist Stealth Rock.
Sandslash
Donphan
Hitmontop
Claydol
--
Hitmonlee
Hitmonchan

Pokemon weak to stealth Rock (BAD for a Rapid Spinner)
Torkoal
---
Cloyster
Delibird
Armaldo

Pokemon immune to spikes
Claydol (Levitates)
---
Delibird (Flier)

Pokemon immune to toxic spikes (not including the above list)
Forretress (Steel Immunity)
---
Tentacruel (Poison Immunity)

With that list made, first I feel a discussion of what a "good" rapid-spinner can do. A Good rapid-spinner can switch in and take the hit from spikes/stealth rock/toxic spikes as well as the opponent. Second, they must either be fast enough to rapid-spin or defensive enough to survive another hit. For this reason, Delibird, even with its immunity to spikes/toxic spikes, is perhaps the worst Rapid Spinner on this list. With a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, low defenses, low HP and sub-par speed, it most likely won't even get the rapid-spin off.

As for what a "good" rapid spinner is, we only have to look at the standards. Starmie and Donphan. Donphan specifically has 90 HP and 120 base defense. While slow, it has no 4x weaknesses and can probably survive the switch in and spin. Donphan's specialty is here. A decent amount of HP, high defense, high attack, and low speed (worthy for trick room but still useful without it).

However, as a ground pokemon, Donphan is weak to ice, water and grass. So it is not the appropriate pokemon in a team weak to those already. Instead it might be more appropriate to choose say Hitmontop, who would not contribute to water/ice/grass weaknesses in your team.

EDIT: I was made aware of another fact. Rapid Spin must actually _hit_ the opponent for it to actually work. And because of this fact, ghost pokemon can simply sit there and prevent the rapid spinner from doing his job. On page 2, Deck Knight lists 4 common pokemon that take advantage of this fact: Gengar, Mismagius, Dusknoir, or Spititomb, the latter two having no weaknesses outside a pokemon with Scrappy or "Foresight". So as an additional requirement, good rapid spinners will be able to do something in the case where a ghost pokemon switches in.

As a note, here are Starmie's and Donphan's analysis pages.
Starmie
Donphan

A rundown of misc. interesting stuff in potential Rapid Spinners.

Blastoise -- Decent Sp. defense and Defense. Yawn and Mirror Coat
Sandslash -- "Sand Veil", decent attack/defense. Swords dance, Brick Break, Night Slash, Slash, Gyro Ball + below average speed.
Starmie -- Checkout the analysis.
Forretress -- Excellent bug/steel typing, high defenses, decent HP, "Sturdy", Explosion!, STAB Gyro Ball + very very slow.
Donphan -- Checkout the analysis
Hitmontop -- Intimidate or Technician. Both excellent but Intimidate is probably better for a Rapid Spin set. Hi Jump Kick, Mach/Bullet Punch + Technician boost, Triple Kick, Aerial Ace + Technician
Torkoal -- Sucks. Lol. But has above average defense and is possibly the slowest pokemon in the game at 20 speed. (slower than SlowBro and Snorlax). One of the few pokemon to learn Lava Plume...
Claydol -- Explosion! Immune to Spikes/Toxic Spikes and resists Stealth Rock. Above average defenses on both sides of the spectrum.
-----
Tentacruel -- 100 base speed, Toxic Spikes, Giga Drain, Poison Jab, Swords Dance. 120 base Sp. Defense.
Cloyster -- Huge Defenses at 180 base! But only 50 base HP to back it up. 4x resist to the ever present Ice attack. Spikes and STAB Ice Beam.
Hitmonlee -- Endure/Reversal combo, Blaze Kick, High Jump Kick, Close Combat, Bullet/Mach Punch and nice 120 base Attack. Decent 110 Sp. Defenses behind only 50 base HP.
Hitmonchan -- "Iron Fist" raises punch damage by 20%. Thunder/Ice/Fire Punch, resisted by no one IIRC. Like hitmonlee with 110 Sp. Def behind 50 base HP.
Kabutops -- "Swift Swim", 105 base Defense and 70 base HP. 115 Base Attack. Slash, Night Slash, X-Scissor.
Delibird -- You'll surprise the foe with a NU pokemon using rapid spin :-/ If you really wanted, you probably can get a free switch in on a "Spore" with Vital Spirit.
Armaldo -- Swords Dance + high attack, decent 100 defenses with 75 base HP.

Okay, thats that.
 
A good rapidspinner should also be able to take down Ghosts switching in when they know its a rapidspinner.

A rapidspinner should be able to counter the ghost switch-in, rapid-spin and have an exit stragy.
 
Just a side note -- Donphan resists SR. You don't have him listed as such.
 
Tricky said:
A good rapidspinner should also be able to take down Ghosts switching in when they know its a rapidspinner.

A rapidspinner should be able to counter the ghost switch-in, rapid-spin and have an exit stragy.
Click to expand...

Interesting point. In this regards, Sandslash and Kabutops deserve a mention with Night Slash. Though, I don't think a 20 base power attack is a threat at all... And yes, an exit strategy certainly will help out.
 
Kabutops doesn't resist SR. ;/ Toxic Spikes is terrible anyway, potentially taken advantage of by Heracross and friends, and is actually removed merely by switching in a [non-Flying/Levitating] Poison-type because they "absorb" them.

If you want to include a Spinner on your team you're already very restricted in your choice (doubly so considering half the list isn't even usable in standard play), then you lose a moveslot on that pokemon too. Even worse is Rapid Spin requires you to actually hit your opponent, making Dusknoir a very difficult work-around especially since there's no Rapid Spinner that can pack any strong, STAB Dark/Ghost attacks to ward it off.

Night Slash is weaker than Sandslash's EQ (without the high crit rate) and both it and Kabutops (and Donphan) are liable to get Burned, making Starmie by far the best Rapid Spinner. Really cuts into Starmie's versatility, though. :/ The best way to handle Dusknoir is to just slam it without regard for your own health (or rather, regard for the lack of it) to prevent it from taking advantage of Pain Split. It works even better for Starmie since it's fast and has Recover, meaning you can potentially kill Dusknoir then come back in later and Recover back up, plus it switches right out of the Burn.

In other words, Rapid Spin blows and you're better off toughing it out through Spikes/SR a vast majority of the time. :[ And Hitmontop is underrated; use Intimidate.

Lanturn resists all Elemental punches, too.
 
Mr.E said:
Kabutops doesn't resist SR. ;/ Toxic Spikes is terrible anyway, potentially taken advantage of by Heracross and friends, and is actually removed merely by switching in a [non-Flying/Levitating] Poison-type because they "absorb" them.
Click to expand...
Way to not think. How many poisons are commonly used that meet that criteria? The closest you can come to is Tentacruel/muk, MAYBE drapion, as crobat, weezing and gengar are the only common poisons. That's like saying surf is terrible because all the opponent has to do is switch in someone with water absorb.
Poison does 1/8 damage each turn, just as much as stealth rock ONCE, and even after rapid spinning it stays on poisoned pokes, and even after heal belling it stays on the field. Heracross takes advantage of it, sure, but that's like saying not to use tyranitar or hippo-guy because rock types take advantage of him. And "Friends?" Heracross doesn't have any friends.
 
Blastoise is an underrated spinner. The most common SRer is Swampert who can theoretically counter most of the other spinners with a combination of Surf/Ice Beam/Earthquake/Stone Edge, except like Forry who can't do much in return anyway without Giga Drain. Sure, Starmie does a better job, but at least Blastoise doesn't have to fear Weavile. And he has Roar and the defenses if a ghost appears.
 
Whenever I include a spinner on my team I go with Forrettress...

I love it's typing, high defense, I can throw stealth rocks and spikes when my opponent switches, and as an exit strategy, I can go BOOM!
 
Epistaxis said:
Way to not think. How many poisons are commonly used that meet that criteria?
Click to expand...

Not many, but how many standard-usable pokemon learn Rapid Spin? My point was mostly that you don't need Rapid Spin to remove Toxic Spikes. Venusaur is pretty usable, better than Crobat. ;/

They can't PSN Steel, Poison, or Flying-types with them, nor Levitators. They can't PSN something already under status and you can't take advantage of more debilitating status effects. They're the only version of Spikes that can be removed by a means other than Rapid Spin and Guts users, played well, can turn them against you. Face it, Toxic Spikes is terrible compared to Spikes and SR.

"Friends" being other pokémon that have Guts as a trait, Heracross just being the most common one.
 
An interesting option for a spinner is Donphan. Resistance to SR and access to the Assurance attack, so if you have your own Stealth Rocks out, you can predict your opponent's switch to a Ghost and then hit them with a 100 BP Dark attack. Coming from a Donphan, that can come really close to a OHKO.
 
I used to LOVE using Starmie as spinner on my team, but seeing as Weavile is practically a 100% counter to Starmie (HP fighting lol), its real risky to use him as a spinner nowadays. I really enjoy using Forretress/Donphan for my spinning needs now, just cause I don't run the risk of losing one of those pokes due to a Rapid Spin (Well, maybe not Forretress seeing as he screams for Magnezone to come in, but EQ is a fantastic move :p )
 
Mr.E said:
Not many, but how many standard-usable pokemon learn Rapid Spin? My point was mostly that you don't need Rapid Spin to remove Toxic Spikes. Venusaur is pretty usable, better than Crobat. ;/

They can't PSN Steel, Poison, or Flying-types with them, nor Levitators. They can't PSN something already under status and you can't take advantage of more debilitating status effects. They're the only version of Spikes that can be removed by a means other than Rapid Spin and Guts users, played well, can turn them against you. Face it, Toxic Spikes is terrible compared to Spikes and SR.

"Friends" being other pokémon that have Guts as a trait, Heracross just being the most common one.
Click to expand...

Machamp,Swellow,Hariyama,Raticate,Ursaring,Tyrouge and Lavitar.Milotic has Marvel Scale.Heracross is only one fast enough to matter,So really it is just Heracross.

People always talk about toxic spikes like was the worst move in world.Stealth rock and spikes way better but you can put together teams that can effective use toxic spikes.I use a toxic spikes team of Drapion, Heatran, Azleaf, Gliscor, Skarmory and Gyarados.

It is not terrible imo,but you could be doing better things.
 
Luck said:
Stealth rock and spikes way better

It is not terrible imo,but you could be doing better things.
Click to expand...
I can see how a few pokes (Quickstep ursaring, guts heracross) could make it work against you, but imo one layer of toxic spikes is much better than one layer of spikes. Think: Poison does 1/8 damage per turn(more than once, in other words), and one layer of spikes does 1/8 damage when you switch in(I think). Things like blissey without aromatherapy will hate it, because it makes them have to softboil more often and take more hits. And toxic spikes hit everything regular spikes hit anyways except what? Muk?
 
i think that Tentacruel is very viable RSpinner, not to mention that he can also TSPike for your team. i'm considering a tenta as a starter, since there are so many weaviles and infernapes starting. even heracross can't really do much to tentacruel. tenta's fast enough to beat a lot of pokes to it, and if you fear a ghost type, he gets swords dance + waterfall. i wouldn't suggest that you base your team around him, but i also wouldn't count him out when considering decent RSpinners.
 
I agree with Mr. E overall. Rapid Spinning just doesn't seem worth it considering the options that are available, plus the fact that Stealth Rock takes just one turn to get on the field in the first place, making it easy to set up multiple times in most cases.

I just carry at least one Wisher on most of my teams, for the most part.
 
doesn't Defog have a rapidspin-like effect?

I remember reading it somewhere, but I'm not sure if it's valid.
 
Manty said:
doesn't Defog have a rapidspin-like effect?

I remember reading it somewhere, but I'm not sure if it's valid.
Click to expand...

I read something like that too, pretty sure it was concluded to be false, otherwise I'd probably see more pokes using it.
 
SiriusBlack said:
i think that Tentacruel is very viable RSpinner, not to mention that he can also TSPike for your team. i'm considering a tenta as a starter, since there are so many weaviles and infernapes starting. even heracross can't really do much to tentacruel. tenta's fast enough to beat a lot of pokes to it, and if you fear a ghost type, he gets swords dance + waterfall. i wouldn't suggest that you base your team around him, but i also wouldn't count him out when considering decent RSpinners.
Click to expand...
I also happen to be thinking of tentacool as a starter (I've bred a boatload of them, one's shiny), but im doing timid + ice beam to take out mence starters.
 
Epistaxis said:
I can see how a few pokes (Quickstep ursaring, guts heracross) could make it work against you, but imo one layer of toxic spikes is much better than one layer of spikes. Think: Poison does 1/8 damage per turn(more than once, in other words), and one layer of spikes does 1/8 damage when you switch in(I think). Things like blissey without aromatherapy will hate it, because it makes them have to softboil more often and take more hits. And toxic spikes hit everything regular spikes hit anyways except what? Muk?
Click to expand...

Why Toxic spikes is not good as stealth rock and spikes

1.CScarf Heracross is to common.

2.You might poison something ,you want a sleep or T-wave

3.They can be absorb up a poison type Roserade,Drapion,Toxicroak, Venasaur, Nidoqueen,Tentacruel, Muk and Skuntank(yes i know they are couple more).Only Roserade and Drapion look to be slight common.

4.They don't affect steel,poison,flying pokes,pokes with immunity,pokes with levitate.Guts and Marvel scale pokes get a sort of bonus from it.

This from a person who uses toxic spikes and will keep on using toxic spikes.
 
I don't like Starmie as a spinner. He's a Pursuit bait and he should be used as a coverage thing rather than spinning IMO
 
Manty said:
doesn't Defog have a rapidspin-like effect?

I remember reading it somewhere, but I'm not sure if it's valid.
Click to expand...

It has the effect... on YOUR own spikes/ stealth rock/ toxic spikes, thus it's pretty much another useless HM.

Edit: too late >_> didn't read up, my bad
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top