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Metagame USUM Metagame Discussion Thread

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
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Welcome to the Ultra SUMO Metagame discussion thread, now with 100% less Zygarde! In this thread we aim to help promote healthy discussion both from high ladder and high tournament play. These discussions can be more general, but should be geared towards the actual metagame(s) themselves.

Before posting, we of the OU moderating team would like to hash out some ground rules to help promote healthy discussion:

  • Keep one liners at a minimum, meaning try to post something somewhat informative
  • Keep the discussion OU related only. All tiers have their respective meta discussion threads
  • No trolling or flaming other users, much like any other thread
  • No suspect talk. It's fine to mention how you personally think something is unhealthy or too much for the tier, but do not turn this into a potential suspect discussion thread. No "plz ban this Pokemon" posts.
  • Do NOT talk about dropping Pokemon from Ubers. This is not the place for that. PM a council member if you want more information
  • NO THEORYMONING. If you haven't bothered to actually play the metagame yet, please do not bother posting in here. Uninformed posts will only lead to bad discussion, and will be deleted regardless of length
  • To go off the last point, please no "what would the metagame be w/o or with x Pokemon in it", because this is not relevant to the CURRENT META. Current meta meaning, not past or future related. C U R R E N T.
  • Unlike previous metagame discussion threads, we are going to be a little harder in moderating this particular thread. We want to stress that we welcome and want to promote good discussion, but occasionally user(s) may post content that is either inaccurate, very skewered towards a certain perception, or lacking in knowledge. We are going to remove these if they go too far. Repeated offenders will definitely feel a slight uptick in warnings as well. Repeated failure to follow the above rules especially will result in a hand slap.
  • To elaborate - we are not dissuading against discussion such as anti-meta and the like provided there is some accuracy behind it.
 
first


Starting off, the metagame shifted in a huge way after Zygarde's ban, leading to certain spikes in usage of pokemon and major drop-offs of pokemon or eventual drop-offs.

Let's talk about spikes first:

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I can't remember the exact number, but this thing's usage jumped a very noticeable amount when Zygarde was banned. Being truly ground immune now means Rotom offers itself as a better check to metagame threats such as Landorus Therian and Gliscor. It's access to volt switch is now a little bit more appreciated with one less pokemon to block it's volt switch. Overall, Rotom is the biggest beneficiary from Zygarde leaving the tier.

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Celepex is back, baby! This dauntless, daring, defensive, dynamic duo has seen more usage as of recently again due to Zygarde leaving. Without having to worry about being struck from the sky by 1000 arrows, Celesteela can go back to acting as a true ground immunity in it's renown partnership with Toxapex. Balance as a whole really got a major boost with Zygarde gone, as Celepex is difficult to break par electrocution.

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Another Balance 'mon that apparently got better was Mega Latias. I'm not particularly sure on why this got better, but not having to worry about being glared every game is pretty nice for it. CM+Stored Power is really solid in the tier right now, as well as 3 attacks roost doing its thing as well. Someone please cover this point better than I did, because I'm honestly curious as to why this has alot more usage than previously.

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Goodbye, Zygarde and Hello, Magma Storm! Heatran lost it's best switch-in with Zygarde being banned, so this thing obviously got better. While it wasn't even close to bad during the Zyg meta, it's usage has def gone up. It's probably the best Mawile answer in the game, which is something valuable to have on any balance or BO build thanks to Mega Mawile's presence becoming more obvious every day. In summary, Heatran benefited from Zygarde leaving and will continue to define it's place in the metagame.

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The destroyer of worlds is here. Balance usage is at an all-time high as previously stated, and Mawile shreds it. This mon basically invented the term "Wall-breaker". It's sheer power breaks just about anything and the only thing really holding it back is it's lackluster speed and it's severe 4MSS. No member of Balance or BO teams really like coming in on it, bar Heatran (usually a more offensive variant, so it still doesn't like switching in multiple times.), so it's basically going to kill something every time it comes in. In short, Balance got better, but it better watch out for Mawile.


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The last mon that I will discuss on this side of things will be Magearna. This thing is finding itself on more and more teams as of lately, and for good reason. All the up and rising balance builds are Magearna food. Whether it be Shift Gear, CM Pain Split, or AV, this thing is never dead weight vs any team. Heck it even finds itself on stall from time to time. This mon is probably one of the best in the tier at the moment, considering its ability to pressure the majority of archetypes that are common atm. Overall, Magearna is a top tier threat that has only gotten better, so make sure you always can deal with it when teambuilding.

Now, for our sinkers:

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While not major, Tangrowth did get a little worse in the metagame. While it's still a solid Ash-Greninja check, the influx of mons it really becomes fodder for has really hurt this thing. Heatran's increasing usage is hurting it as well, as well as players starting to opt for Ferrothorn and Tapu Bulu as fat grasses. While still pretty good, it's not as good as it was in it's glory days of the Zygarde Metagame.

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Mew got alot worse with Zygarde leaving. Yes it still checks Lando, Medicham, Garchomp, Gliscor, etc, but it's main thing was being able to cripple toxic Zygarde simply by switching in. It lost this niche and is slowly plummeting into lesser-usage again, just like before. There are just things that do it's job and more, such as Garchomp (ironic isn't it?). Garchomp can pressure Gliscor and Landorus with Rockium+SD, as well as outspeeding Medicham and hitting it with an Earthquake. Overall, Mew just can't keep up with the metagame anymore.


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The titan took an arrow to the knee. Zygarde's existence sent Clefable up to OU to deal with it and it soon became a solid pick overall. However, Zygarde was banned and Clefable just got worse with all of the Heatrans and Mega Mawiles running around. In summary, I hope this thing gets worse so UU can have it back... I mean Heatran's/Mawile's usage as well as it losing it's main purpose has crippled Clefable alot.

Overall, if I missed any mons, feel free to add on or correct me. Thanks for reading!
 
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The titan took an arrow to the knee. Zygarde's existence sent Clefable up to OU to deal with it and it soon became a solid pick overall. However, Zygarde was banned and Clefable just got worse with all of the Heatrans and Mega Mawiles running around. In summary, I hope this thing gets worse so UU can have it back... I mean Heatran's/Mawile's usage as well as it losing it's main purpose has crippled Clefable alot.
Most of your post was pretty well thought out, but I disagree with this part. I actually feel like Clefable has been the best its ever been since the decline of Wish Clefable balances. Zygarde leaving has permitted Clefable to run a myriad of different spreads/sets, as it is no longer forced to run maximum Defense investment alongside Leftovers to check it. Particularly, Specially Defensive and Life Orb Clefable have been seeing more usage. Specially Defensive Clefable can do a bunch of interesting things, such as checking Pokemon like Mega Alakazam, Mega Latios, Surf Ash-Greninja, and non-Choice Specs Tapu Koko, which it otherwise couldn't do. Life Orb is an absolutely terrifying wallbreaker that can be compared to 4 attacks Mega Mawile, but it's much more durable and actually brings some defensive utility in being a solid Dark-type resist. If you want to read more about Life Orb Clefable, I'd recommend you to read my post about it here.
 
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Most of your post was pretty well thought out, but I disagree with this part. I actually feel like Clefable has been the best its ever been since the decline of Wish Clefable balances. Zygarde leaving has permitted Clefable to run a myriad of different spreads/sets, as it is no longer forced to run maximum Defense investment alongside Leftovers to check it. Particularly, Specially Defensive and Life Orb Clefable have been seeing more usage. Specially Defensive Clefable allows it to do a bunch of interesting things, such as checking Pokemon like Mega Alakazam, Mega Latios, Surf Ash-Greninja, and non-Choice Specs Tapu Koko, which it otherwise couldn't do. Life Orb is an absolutely terrifying wallbreaker that can be compared to 4 attacks Mega Mawile, but it's much more durable and actually brings some defensive utility in being a solid Dark-type resist. If you want to read more about Life Orb Clefable, I'd recommend you to read my post about it here.
Now that I look at it after you pointing it out, That does seem to be the case instead of what I posted. Thanks for showing me that and I will read more into LO Clef. Have a good day, Jordy !
 
Tapu Koko
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| Choice Specs 35.254%


I've been using Specs Koko lately and I'd argue its back to its former best. However, I fail to see how Zygarde's departure benefited it that much. Is it just because it was slept on?
 
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Tapu Koko
- Items -
| Choice Specs 35.254%


I've been using Specs Koko lately and I'd argue its back to its former best. However, I fail to how Zygarde's departure benefited it that much. Is it just because it was slept on?
Although Zygarde leaving hasn't heavily impacted Choice Specs Tapu Koko directly (I guess Tapu Koko doesn't have to worry about not OHKOing it anymore), Zygarde leaving has impacted the way in which teams are built. Notably, Grass-types like Ferrothorn and CB Tapu Bulu are picked in favor of sturdier Grass-types like Tangrowth and Specially Defensive Tapu Bulu a lot more often, and Tapu Koko can overwhelm them over time, though Ferrothorn is pretty durable, so that can take a while to overwhelm. Furthermore, cores like Toxapex + Celesteela have been appearing a lot more, and Tapu Koko is relatively unrestricted against them.

tl;dr: The metagame was unkind to Choice Specs Tapu Koko prior to Zygarde's ban, mostly due to the popularity of sturdy Grass-types; however, without Zygarde, there's less need for sturdy Grass-types and certain cores like Toxapex + Celesteela are better now, truly allowing Choice Specs Tapu Koko to shine.
 
To talk about a few other changes, we've definitely noticed an uptick on Protean Greninja since Zygarde's ban. While it's true that Protean Greninja definitely had its moments to shine even in the Zygarde meta, this thing is now out in full force with a variety of moves being used to compliment their teams. Z Dig has returned to be noticeable while we saw Finch use U-turn without Scarf on his. Hopefully we'll continue to see some different variations of Protean Greninja in future installments of the high level tournaments and maybe in ladder.

I also agree Specs Koko won a lot with Zygarde's ban. Like Jordy said Zygarde's disappearance meant that there are technically less Tangrowths overall. Even though Bulu exists, lacking Regenerator means that it can't continuously keep switching into STAB Dazzling Gleam over and over again as an example unless it can recover a lot from Horn Leech and Grassy Terrain. We've also seen where Bulu has not always gone defensive and gone back to being an offensive bull every now and then as well. While it's difficult to break Ferrothorn with Koko, Koko can still Volt Switch into other threats that Ferrothorn can't control as easily to prevent Ferrothorn from recovering a lot of health. If you can force Ferrothorn out as soon as possible you deny it Leech Seed for extra health.

I want to talk a little about Zapdos. It's a Pokemon that has definitely benefitted a lot from the Zygarde ban since it's harder to bypass with Ground-types. Pokemon like Scarf Landorus-T and Tornadus-T have to be cautious when using U-turn since Static has a good chance of screwing up their Speed tier with paralysis. This also means Mega Medicham has to be careful if the opponent is willing to sack Zapdos sometime in the match since all of its moves make contact. We've seen Volt Switch, and while I feel that it's a decision that can be awkward at times, having momentum can sometimes be more desirable.

Jirachi has been gaining traction lately since it's a good check to Tapu Lele and Tornadus-T under most circumstances. It's been used a lot for Healing Wish as well, which is huge for offensive teams because they can be a lot more reckless with their offensive Pokemon. Having U-turn for momentum is really good - especially on Scarf which can sometimes get the emergency Healing Wish off faster if necessary while still checking some dangerous threats.

Finally, I want to talk about Landorus-T. Many people have been clamoring to lower this Pokemon to S- / A+. While this isn't the VR, I still wanted to use this post to state that I'm really lost on that. Sure, we've seen Scarf Lando-T be exploited every now and then, but a lot of Scarfers can be exploited and it's a bit harder to exploit Lando-T sometimes since it can U-turn to keep momentum. That being said - the offensive sets are still rocking things up and is one of the reasons I have large doubts of Lando-T slipping down for a while. Continental Crush has been worthwhile since it still does neutral damage to Celesteela while catching Zapdos. We've also seen Smack Down come up, which is great since a lot of Lando-T's checks are usually Flying-types with a major weakness to Earthquake. It isn't perfect as far as being an offensive SR user, but it's damn close and still can throw people off occasionally with Supersonic Skystrike too. tl;dr I don't foresee Lando-T dropping anytime soon and its offensive sets are very good right now.
 
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I can't remember the exact number, but this thing's usage jumped a very noticeable amount when Zygarde was banned. Being truly ground immune now means Rotom offers itself as a better check to metagame threats such as Landorus Therian and Gliscor. It's access to volt switch is now a little bit more appreciated with one less pokemon to block it's volt switch. Overall, Rotom is the biggest beneficiary from Zygarde leaving the tier.

Let me just point out the Rotom and other Levitate mons aren't "truly ground immune" because some Mold Breaker mons who use Ground moves roam the tier, with Excadrill who's a Ground type EQ spammer the most dangerous one, but also there's EP Kyurem-B (Teravolt) and EQ M-Gyarados.
In any case, Rotom-W, Celesteela, Skarmory and Zapdos all benefit greatly from the Zygarde ban for the same reason, and it'll be interesting to see if some strategies involving Smack Down/Gravity will gain traction due to these guys.
 
Although Zygarde leaving hasn't heavily impacted Choice Specs Tapu Koko directly (I guess Tapu Koko doesn't have to worry about not OHKOing it anymore), Zygarde leaving has impacted the way in which teams are built. Notably, Grass-types like Ferrothorn and CB Tapu Bulu are picked in favor of sturdier Grass-types like Tangrowth and Specially Defensive Tapu Bulu a lot more often, and Tapu Koko can overwhelm them over time, though Ferrothorn is pretty durable, so that can take a while to overwhelm. Furthermore, cores like Toxapex + Celesteela have been appearing a lot more, and Tapu Koko is relatively unrestricted against them.

tl;dr: The metagame was unkind to Choice Specs Tapu Koko prior to Zygarde's ban, mostly due to the popularity of sturdy Grass-types; however, without Zygarde, there's less need for sturdy Grass-types and certain cores like Toxapex + Celesteela are better now, truly allowing Choice Specs Tapu Koko to shine.
Yeah I suspected that, just wanted to get the discussion going since this thing was dead for a few days. Seems like I succeeded ;P
 
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Hello OU players. I'm here looking for advice on how to counter shift gear mag/set up spam.

In the OST my next round opponent is a total douche. He called me trash and said "this should be another ez 2-0" which only makes me really want to beat him. I'm not a great OU player but I really really want to win this match to put someone as disrespectful as he is in his place.

I'm just wondering what are some of the best ways to deal with set up spam/ shift gear mag? He seems to really like exadrill and shift gear mag both very high tier threats. What are some good ways to hard counter these threats?
 
Hello OU players. I'm here looking for advice on how to counter shift gear mag/set up spam.

In the OST my next round opponent is a total douche. He called me trash and said "this should be another ez 2-0" which only makes me really want to beat him. I'm not a great OU player but I really really want to win this match to put someone as disrespectful as he is in his place.

I'm just wondering what are some of the best ways to deal with set up spam/ shift gear mag? He seems to really like exadrill and shift gear mag both very high tier threats. What are some good ways to hard counter these threats?
Excadrill paired with SG Magearna likely means he is using a type of set-up spam HO, for what it’s worth. Early game hazards followed by late game set-up spam. Anyway, I don’t want to get into specific ways to beat that or him as the match is not my own to prepare for, but I will answer your question on Magearna.

The best SG Magearna answers are: Chansey, AV SDef Iron Head Magearna, Haze SDef Toxapex (if not Z Thunderbolt), SDef Jirachi, and EQ or Leech Seed Mega Venusaur (if not Z Flash Cannon). However, the presence of things such as Heatran, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, Volcarona, Gastrodon, and others can also be used to deter it in some capacity. Finally, hazards, offensive pressure, and specific forms of revenge killing also help out.
 
Hello OU players. I'm here looking for advice on how to counter shift gear mag/set up spam.

In the OST my next round opponent is a total douche. He called me trash and said "this should be another ez 2-0" which only makes me really want to beat him. I'm not a great OU player but I really really want to win this match to put someone as disrespectful as he is in his place.

I'm just wondering what are some of the best ways to deal with set up spam/ shift gear mag? He seems to really like exadrill and shift gear mag both very high tier threats. What are some good ways to hard counter these threats?

Checks to setup Magearna depend on what moves it chooses to run so it's hard to reliably prepare for but I can say that Chansey, AV Magearna and Jirachi are pretty reliable answers.
Excadrill is countered by Skarmory and Celesteela. Tangrowth and Slowbro also check it well. Ash-Greninja deals with it too. Bulu weakens EQ with terrain but has to watch out for Iron Head. Rotom-Wash checks Sand Rush very well but can't deal with Mold Breaker.

It should be mentioned that your opponent might see what you post here and will prepare for it (and not bring Mag or Exca).
 
Jirachi is being discussed right now in the OU viability ranking thread so I just wanted to talk about how underrated Doom Desire is. Although it doesn't make use of it's amazing ability, It's a great move that gives Pokes who are weak to Fairy types a free turn to set up rocks or boost their stats. With a Z Crystal it becomes a base 200 special attack that can surprise opponents who think it's not carrying a one turn steel type attack.
 
While Doom Desire actually can put pressure on opposing team and let your mon set up, it is very hard to fit the move somewhere on Jirachi. Having Doom Desire means that Jirachi's role compression, one of the main reasons why Jirachi is good, becomes less. To use Doom Desire, Jirachi is forced to give up either Stealth Rock, Wish/Healing Wish, U-turn, Iron Head, or a coverage (on Scarf). Losing Stealth Rock means that the builder has to search for another rocker, and fitting it can be difficult af. Losing Wish or Healing Wish reduces Jirachi's supportive capabilities, and it can really hurt the team. Without U-turn Jirachi can lose all your momentum in battle. Dropping Iron Head in favor of something (not only Doom Desire) really sucks because in this case Jirachi can't take advantage of its great ability and cause an immense amount of flinches. Also Iron Head is Jirachi's most reliable STAB option. For Scarf set, losing coverage (namely Fire Punch) makes Jirachi walled by common mons like Ferrothorn and M-Scizor, and it forces Jirachi to give up all momentum.

tl;dr Jirachi hasn't a place for Doom Desire.
 
Hello everyone, I'm here to bring you a guide explaining the thought process and essentials behind many balanced and bulky offensive teams. Shoutouts to my tutee, Algeria, for inspiring me to make this post.

This is in no particular order of priority or anything, just in the order I thought of things.

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Ash-Greninja counter play
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Ash-Greninja counter play is one of the most important things for any team; if your team is weak to Ash-Greninja, you should rebuild it. Although "consistent" counter play is hard to come by when factoring in Dark Pulse flinches, Spikes, and what not, it's definitely a manageable threat. The most common way that I see and use myself is by using Pokemon like Toxapex, Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, and Amoonguss to scout for Hydro Pump and then have a Dark-resistant Pokemon like Magearna or Clefable in the back to switch in if Ash-Greninja locks itself into Dark Pulse. Toxapex, Tangrowth, and Amoonguss are particularly notable because they go practically unpunished (if Spikes isn't up) thanks to Regenerator. There's also Tapu Fini and Tapu Bulu, which can neutralize Ash-Greninja for a large part of a match thanks to their amazing bulk and resistances. Additionally, Tapu Fini can remove Spikes, which Ash-Greninja will often try to set up against these type of teams to make progress.

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Heatran counter play
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Heatran checks are absolutely mandatory. It's very common because it provides a lot for teams and you will often need more than one check to it because it has quite a few ways around its checks and counters with its many available options. Because of its lacking Speed, offensive pressure can often be enough with an offensive check or two like Garchomp and Mega Alakazam in the back, but generally speaking, I wouldn't advice this because it tends to be very unreliable. There's a lot of cool options to check Heatran, like Rotom-W, Tapu Fini, Mega Latias, and Mega Tyranitar. All these Pokemon can check the most common sets, but can lose to others with moves like Toxic, Grassium Z, and Steelium Z. Do note that Steelium Z variants have fallen off the face of the earth, so I often don't find myself worrying about it.

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Magearna counter play
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You will often need multiple checks to Magearna because of its sheer diversity making it hard to check initially. Mega Venusaur, Heart Swap Magearna, specially defensive Jirachi, and specially defensive Heatran are some good catch alls against Magearna from a defensive standpoint. If you're using a decently fast team, you should definitely note that it can be hard for the Magearna user to set up a Shift Gear initially, because Magearna can often crumble to the offensive pressure that a team exerts. Additionally, Assault Vest sets are quickly worn down, which can be exploited with Pokemon like Mega Alakazam and Choice Specs Tapu Lele. Also note that bulkier Choice Scarf Jirachi variants are often great tools for faster paced teams to deal with Magearna.

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Ground-type checks
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Having a Pokemon that is immune to Ground is almost universally considered to be mandatory to be able to keep Ground-types like Landorus-T, Garchomp, and Gliscor in check. Some useful Pokemon that often tend to fit these type of teams that are immune to Ground are Tornadus-T, Rotom-W, Zapdos, and Mega Latias, but you should definitely be wary of Supersonic Skystrike Landorus-T with Tornadus-T and Continental Crush variants of Landorus-T and Garchomp with these Pokemon in general. Other Pokemon like Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu can also suffice in this role, though they will need more support than the aforementioned Pokemon, because they're quickly overwhelmed by Z-Moves. Also, note that Landorus-T and Garchomp are particularly easy to wear down, so having faster offensive Pokemon like Mega Alakazam and Greninja to pressure them is often great and will always prove to be useful in practice when combined with one or more of these Pokemon.

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Bulky Steel-types
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Steel-types are absolutely mandatory on any team to keep offensive Psychic- and Fairy-types like Tapu Lele, Mega Alakazam, and Magearna in check consistently. Individually, they can also provide a lot of other utility. Magearna can provide a stallbreaker, slow pivot, and a resistance to Dark. Celesteela can harass the opposition with Leech Seed and also provides a decent check to Pokemon like Garchomp and Tapu Bulu. Heatran is a really potent stallbreaker, a nice check to other bulky Steel-types, and provides Stealth Rock. Ferrothorn provides an additional resistance to Electric, allowing it to check Tapu Koko, as well as a resistance to Water to scout out Ash-Greninja and Spikes. Mega Scizor is a pretty threatening sweeper in general and is really self sufficient by being able to wear down its own checks and counters with Knock Off over time. Additionally, it can provide Pursuit and Defog support if desired. Lastly, there's Jirachi, which is a provides Wish, Healing Wish, and can also fit on faster paced teams. Neither Heatran nor Ferrothorn are particularly great ways of dealing with Psychic-types defensively, so you will often need another bulky Steel-type with them.

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Flying-resistant Pokemon
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Flying-resistant Pokemon are incredibly important because Tornadus-T is one of the most common Pokemon in the metagame and will otherwise quickly overwhelm teams. Oftentimes, Pokemon like Celesteela and Leftovers Heatran will not cut it as Flying-type resists in the long run against Tornadus-T, because they will quickly crumble once their item is removed by Knock Off. Additionally, Heatran can be lured with All-Out Pummeling. Pokemon like Rotom-W, Zapdos, Mega Tyranitar, and bulkier Pain Split variants of Magearna are better fit for this job. This is also useful against Supersonic Skystrike Landorus-T, but I covered this already so I won't go any more in-depth.

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Tapu Koko counter play
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For Tapu Koko, having a combination of a Grass-type and Ground-type is something I'd really advice. Being able to take Tapu Koko's Volt Switch and Hidden Power Ice without being punished hard is why Grass-types are very useful, combine this with a Ground-type like Landorus-T or Garchomp, and you will often be able to force Tapu Koko into awkward positions. Don't assume that it is Choice Specs, though. A bulky Grass-type on its own can be fine against Tapu Koko too, but you will have to accept that you will almost never get a positive momentum trade against Tapu Koko because of it.

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Protean Greninja "checks"
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To keep Protean Greninja in check you will really have to familiarize yourself with its common sets because, frankly, it can pull off anything if desired by its team, so be very analytical about its set at Team Preview. Generally speaking Toxapex and Ferrothorn are pretty good blanket checks to scout its set, but even they can't go unpunished against sets with Groundium Z, Fightinium Z, Extrasensory, and Hidden Power Fire respectively. I'd definitely advice having faster Pokemon like Mega Alakazam and Choice Scarf Landorus-T in the back to pressure it out, minimizing its overall impact. You will often have to make aggressive doubles against Protean Greninja with Pokemon like Mega Alakazam and Landorus-T, though, which is really risky.

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Toxapex checks
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Having a consistent way of dealing with Toxapex is absolutely mandatory, no team can get away without it. You can do this through various ways that are all able to provide different kinds of utility on top of this, like Psychic-types (not Stored Power Mega Latias), Roost Tapu Koko, Taunt Tornadus-T (should never be your only check), and Gliscor, for example. A common misconception that I see among newer players is that Toxapex is a reliable check to Heatran, this is wrong. In reality, Toxapex will often find itself overwhelmed by the combination of Magma Storm, Taunt, and Earth Power.


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Mega Mawile counter play
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People are often looking for ways to play around Mega Mawile defensively, but this approach just isn't that great. The best way to keep Mega Mawile out is with offensive pressure because its relatively mediocre Speed tier will often leave it in awkward positions against Pokemon like Landorus-T, Tapu Koko, and Magearna. Additionally, its relatively low bulk will quickly let it down. However, having a Pokemon that can pivot into Play Rough is absolutely mandatory, because if Mega Mawile gets a free turn to come in, you have to have a way to prevent it from spamming Play Rough. Some of the most common ways of dealing with this are Heatran, Mega Scizor, and Gliscor, which can switch into an unboosted Play Rough relatively well.

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Kartana counterplay
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Kartana is a really big deal, because it's very prominent and provides a ton for teams offensively. However, dealing with it is pretty straight forward, all you really need is a way to outspeed its Choice Band and Swords Dance sets and a way to consistently pivot around Choice Scarf variants. Tornadus-T and Mega Alakazam are two particularly great ways of achieving the prior, while Pokemon like Tornadus-T, Zapdos, Mega Scizor, and Amoonguss can pivot around Choice Scarf variants rather handily. Zapdos and Mega Scizor are also particularly great checks to Choice Band sets and can deal with Swords Dance variants, though that is greatly dependant on its Z-Move.

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Stallbreakers
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I won't go in-depth much, but going in without stallbreakers against a stall team is practically a death sentence. Luckily, many of these Pokemon provide other niches besides breaking stall, so they shouldn't be particularly awkward to fit on teams in general. Many of these stallbreakers can be prepared for by stall, though. This can be seen by the rise of Pokemon like Mega Aggron, Moltres, and Heart Swap Magearna on stall teams, so be wary.

Stealth Rock and Defog are mandatory on practically any team to punish switches and to keep your own team from being too weak to opposing hazards. Spikes and Toxic Spikes, however, are just options that can often provide to be very useful and the Pokemon that can set it are often great natural fits in general.
 
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So I haven't played much lately, and over the past couple of days I came back to try out the meta and see if I enjoyed it again, and I was reminded exactly why I quit playing. No Zygarde was genuinely a really great change, and I'm glad it was removed. But still, I came here to discuss why I think S/M and USUM OU are complete garbage and in my opinion are the worst OU generations since gen 1 or 2. When we found out about this generation's new Pokemon, I thought it would be great for competitive. Some strong attackers with the Tapus, and some nice walls in Toxapex and Celesteela would make gameplay more skill-intensive and require better switching, predicting, and planning. Powercreep is always a thing, and it's possible that at some point, a new generation can tip the scales and totally spoil the meta, but I don't think that happened here. Now let me say here that I'm not advocating for a suspect test, I just want to get my thoughts out.

The issue came with the side-effects of these new Pokemon, and of course, Z-moves. I thought at first that Z-moves wouldn't really be used, why waste an item slot on a one time use strong attack? They were OK on some Pokemon. A one time use for Hydreigon, Tornadus, Magearna. These weren't to beat hard-checks and counters, but to beat soft-checks, things that ordinarily could take one hit and retaliate. Z-Moves let you beat them. But the issue arises when you have things like Z-Volcarona, who could set up and then use a Z-Move to beat what is normally a very hard check, with Z-Psychic or Hurricane, and Z-Giga Impact on Kartana. These sets aren't necessarily good, but the fact that they exist can force you to play incredibly differently when you should have a guaranteed switch. Now, this alone shouldn't be a huge problem. Small things like this, while increasing the incidence of 50/50s and wins based on matchup (if you have the correct Z-move, you win, if you don't, you lose), aren't enough to go from the genuinely fun metagame of gen 6 to the dumpster fire of gen 7. That requires 4 Pokemon, and it might not be what you expect:

If matchup wins were a problem because of Z-Moves, then these guys make them a goddamn nuclear emergency. I'm talking of course, about Hawlucha, Ninetales, Victini, and Ribombee. Jesus, imagine genuinely being told that those were the problem Pokemon at the start of this generation. Each of those Pokemon has their gimmick set that transforms the entire way that someone has to play, and each of them has a hard counter where, if your opponent runs that Pokemon, set, or move, you are almost guaranteed to lose at matchup. Now, Ninetales and Ribombee - they are garbage by themselves, but as support Pokemon, become ridiculous. We've always had dedicated leads, screens, and gen 6 had webs, so why did this become a problem? Because with the powercreep that exists, you often can't afford to defog even once or you will be swept, and these Pokemon are actually reliable Webs or Screens setters. Now, there are ways to play around this, of course. But the best way to beat Screens and Webs teams is just matchup. But I'll say it once again - this isn't enough to ruin the metagame.

That responsibility lies squarely on the shoulders of Hawlucha and (celebrate) Victini (and a few others who are not nearly as egregious, and being able to say it's just these two looks better). Now I don't need to explain the way these 2 work. They can even be paired with the other 2 from earlier if you want. The issue they entail is partly related to the matchup problem, i.e. if I bring Zapdos then Hawlucha isn't an issue, or if I bring Chansey, Victini isn't an issue. But the main problem is their required skill vs. likely outcomes of using. Supposing I don't have a Zapdos or Chansey and my opponent brings 1 (or both) of these Pokemon, no matter their skill level, I'm already going to be very worried about this matchup. If I'm up against a Victini and have a Ferrothorn or Celesteela, for example, I genuinely can't afford to knock out an opposing Pokemon, or get Uturned with either of them a single time, or Victini will get its free setup turn and get 2-3 kills, minimum. Regardless of my opponent's skill level. And that's the thing here: there is zero skill to using either of these Pokemon. OK, being able to get them in at the correct time might require some knowledge of how to play, but once they're in, it's the same every. single. time. Setup once. Attack with the best move. Repeat. There is no skill or thoughts into what needs to be done. The one thing for Hawlucha is that it encourages 50/50s with ghosts and protects. But Victini doesn't even have that to worry about. Both of them get boosted attack, speed, and defense for one turn of setup, and are easily capable of sweeping a well-constructed team with a bit of chip.

Now, I might be missing something that makes this generation bad. But this is my thoughts on it, and I'm afraid it's not going to change with gen 8 without serious changes to the way Pokemon works. But either way, I can say my evidence for this gen being bad: compare this gen's Heatah Fajita to last gen's. Look what skill could let you win with last gen compared to now. Skill has been replaced with matchup to an insane degree, and that genuinely makes me sad, because I really used to enjoy playing OU Pokemon.

edit; Jesus Christ I'm putting off writing a Uni essay and I just realised I wrote a 1000 word writeup on Pokemon.
 
I feel the real problem comes from the unpredictability of Z moves and mega stones/abilities like battle bond. Something that can be solved by adding a description when entering the battle but I don't feel this is the right place to talk about that.

I don't agree that Hawlucha should be on that list since it is incredibly weak without boosts. This makes it terrible early game as it can't even revenge kill pokes at full health like Kyurem B with a base 130 STAB move which means you're basically playing with 5 pokes until it sets up

Also, Depending on the set it definitely has more counters than just the one's you mentioned. Unaware Clef completely walls any set and destroys it with moonblast, Koko can revenge kill any set lacking Poison Jab and Red Card Mimiku can switch in and get rid of any boosts as well as unburden. Counterplay against it doesn't require these specific pokes and can just revolve around keeping Mawile at full health and revenge killing it or going for a more Defensive spread on Tornadus. Even pokes It's meant to set up on have ways of beating or crippling it. Ferrothorn and Chansey have T wave and Lando has Z fly

Jordy Do you feel Rain counterplay and just weather counterplay in general is required? I didn't really see any mention of it on your post
 
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Jordy Do you feel Rain counterplay and just weather counterplay in general is required? I didn't really see any mention of it on your post
It is ofcourse important to have counterplay to rain teams, but considering the Pokemon that can do this, which I mentioned a few times throughout the post already, I didn't think that it stood out enough to give it an explicit mention. The same goes for sand teams.
 
Hello everyone, I'm here to bring you a guide explaining the thought process and essentials behind many balanced and bulky offensive teams. Shoutouts to my tutee, Algeria, for inspiring me to make this post.

This is in no particular order of priority or anything, just in the order I thought of things.

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Ash-Greninja counter play
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Ash-Greninja counter play is one of the most important things for any team; if your team is weak to Ash-Greninja, you should rebuild it. Although "consistent" counter play is hard to come by when factoring in Dark Pulse flinches, Spikes, and what not, it's definitely a manageable threat. The most common way that I see and use myself is by using Pokemon like Toxapex, Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, and Amoonguss to scout for Hydro Pump and then have a Dark-resistant Pokemon like Magearna or Clefable in the back to switch in if Ash-Greninja locks itself into Dark Pulse. Toxapex, Tangrowth, and Amoonguss are particularly notable because they go practically unpunished (if Spikes isn't up) thanks to Regenerator. There's also Tapu Fini and Tapu Bulu, which can neutralize Ash-Greninja for a large part of a match thanks to their amazing bulk and resistances. Additionally, Tapu Fini can remove Spikes, which Ash-Greninja will often try to set up against these type of teams to make progress.

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Heatran counter play
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Heatran checks are absolutely mandatory. It's very common because it provides a lot for teams and you will often need more than one check to it because it has quite a few ways around its checks and counters with its many available options. Because of its lacking Speed, offensive pressure can often be enough with an offensive check or two like Garchomp and Mega Alakazam in the back, but generally speaking, I wouldn't advice this because it tends to be very unreliable. There's a lot of cool options to check Heatran, like Rotom-W, Tapu Fini, Mega Latias, and Mega Tyranitar. All these Pokemon can check the most common sets, but can lose to others with moves like Toxic, Grassium Z, and Steelium Z. Do note that Steelium Z variants have fallen off the face of the earth, so I often don't find myself worrying about it.

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Magearna counter play
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You will often need multiple checks to Magearna because of its sheer diversity making it hard to check initially. Mega Venusaur, Heart Swap Magearna, specially defensive Jirachi, and specially defensive Heatran are some good catch alls against Magearna from a defensive standpoint. If you're using a decently fast team, you should definitely note that it can be hard for the Magearna user to set up a Shift Gear initially, because Magearna can often crumble to the offensive pressure that a team exerts. Additionally, Assault Vest sets are quickly worn down, which can be exploited with Pokemon like Mega Alakazam and Choice Specs Tapu Lele. Also note that bulkier Choice Scarf Jirachi variants are often great tools for faster paced teams to deal with Magearna.

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Ground-type checks
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Having a Pokemon that is immune to Ground is almost universally considered to be mandatory to be able to keep Ground-types like Landorus-T, Garchomp, and Gliscor in check. Some useful Pokemon that often tend to fit these type of teams that are immune to Ground are Tornadus-T, Rotom-W, Zapdos, and Mega Latias, but you should definitely be wary of Supersonic Skystrike Landorus-T with Tornadus-T and Continental Crush variants of Landorus-T and Garchomp with these Pokemon in general. Other Pokemon like Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu can also suffice in this role, though they will need more support than the aforementioned Pokemon, because they're quickly overwhelmed by Z-Moves. Also, note that Landorus-T and Garchomp are particularly easy to wear down, so having faster offensive Pokemon like Mega Alakazam and Greninja to pressure them is often great and will always prove to be useful in practice when combined with one or more of these Pokemon.

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Bulky Steel-types
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Steel-types are absolutely mandatory on any team to keep offensive Psychic- and Fairy-types like Tapu Lele, Mega Alakazam, and Magearna in check consistently. Individually, they can also provide a lot of other utility. Magearna can provide a stallbreaker, slow pivot, and a resistance to Dark. Celesteela can harass the opposition with Leech Seed and also provides a decent check to Pokemon like Garchomp and Tapu Bulu. Heatran is a really potent stallbreaker, a nice check to other bulky Steel-types, and provides Stealth Rock. Ferrothorn provides an additional resistance to Electric, allowing it to check Tapu Koko, as well as a resistance to Water to scout out Ash-Greninja and Spikes. Mega Scizor is a pretty threatening sweeper in general and is really self sufficient by being able to wear down its own checks and counters with Knock Off over time. Additionally, it can provide Pursuit and Defog support if desired. Lastly, there's Jirachi, which is a provides Wish, Healing Wish, and can also fit on faster paced teams. Neither Heatran nor Ferrothorn are particularly great ways of dealing with Psychic-types defensively, so you will often need another bulky Steel-type with them.

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Flying-resistant Pokemon
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Flying-resistant Pokemon are incredibly important because Tornadus-T is one of the most common Pokemon in the metagame and will otherwise quickly overwhelm teams. Oftentimes, Pokemon like Celesteela and Leftovers Heatran will not cut it as Flying-type resists in the long run against Tornadus-T, because they will quickly crumble once their item is removed by Knock Off. Additionally, Heatran can be lured with All-Out Pummeling. Pokemon like Rotom-W, Zapdos, Mega Tyranitar, and bulkier Pain Split variants of Magearna are better fit for this job. This is also useful against Supersonic Skystrike Landorus-T, but I covered this already so I won't go any more in-depth.

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Tapu Koko counter play
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For Tapu Koko, having a combination of a Grass-type and Ground-type is something I'd really advice. Being able to take Tapu Koko's Volt Switch and Hidden Power Ice without being punished hard is why Grass-types are very useful, combine this with a Ground-type like Landorus-T or Garchomp, and you will often be able to force Tapu Koko into awkward positions. Don't assume that it is Choice Specs, though. A bulky Grass-type on its own can be fine against Tapu Koko too, but you will have to accept that you will almost never get a positive momentum trade against Tapu Koko because of it.

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Protean Greninja "checks"
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To keep Protean Greninja in check you will really have to familiarize yourself with its common sets because, frankly, it can pull off anything if desired by its team, so be very analytical about its set at Team Preview. Generally speaking Toxapex and Ferrothorn are pretty good blanket checks to scout its set, but even they can't go unpunished against sets with Groundium Z, Fightinium Z, Extrasensory, and Hidden Power Fire respectively. I'd definitely advice having faster Pokemon like Mega Alakazam and Choice Scarf Landorus-T in the back to pressure it out, minimizing its overall impact. You will often have to make aggressive doubles against Protean Greninja with Pokemon like Mega Alakazam and Landorus-T, though, which is really risky.

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Toxapex checks
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Having a consistent way of dealing with Toxapex is absolutely mandatory, no team can get away without it. You can do this through various ways that are all able to provide different kinds of utility on top of this, like Psychic-types (not Stored Power Mega Latias), Roost Tapu Koko, Taunt Tornadus-T (should never be your only check), and Gliscor, for example. A common misconception that I see among newer players is that Toxapex is a reliable check to Heatran, this is wrong. In reality, Toxapex will often find itself overwhelmed by the combination of Magma Storm, Taunt, and Earth Power.


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Mega Mawile counter play
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People are often looking for ways to play around Mega Mawile defensively, but this approach just isn't that great. The best way to keep Mega Mawile out is with offensive pressure because its relatively mediocre Speed tier will often leave it in awkward positions against Pokemon like Landorus-T, Tapu Koko, and Magearna. Additionally, its relatively low bulk will quickly let it down. However, having a Pokemon that can pivot into Play Rough is absolutely mandatory, because if Mega Mawile gets a free turn to come in, you have to have a way to prevent it from spamming Play Rough. Some of the most common ways of dealing with this are Heatran, Mega Scizor, and Gliscor, which can switch into an unboosted Play Rough relatively well.

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Kartana counterplay
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Kartana is a really big deal, because it's very prominent and provides a ton for teams offensively. However, dealing with it is pretty straight forward, all you really need is a way to outspeed its Choice Band and Swords Dance sets and a way to consistently pivot around Choice Scarf variants. Tornadus-T and Mega Alakazam are two particularly great ways of achieving the prior, while Pokemon like Tornadus-T, Zapdos, Mega Scizor, and Amoonguss can pivot around Choice Scarf variants rather handily. Zapdos and Mega Scizor are also particularly great checks to Choice Band sets and can deal with Swords Dance variants, though that is greatly dependant on its Z-Move.

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Stallbreakers
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I won't go in-depth much, but going in without stallbreakers against a stall team is practically a death sentence. Luckily, many of these Pokemon provide other niches besides breaking stall, so they shouldn't be particularly awkward to fit on teams in general. Many of these stallbreakers can be prepared for by stall, though. This can be seen by the rise of Pokemon like Mega Aggron, Moltres, and Heart Swap Magearna on stall teams, so be wary.

Stealth Rock and Defog are mandatory on practically any team to punish switches and to keep your own team from being too weak to opposing hazards. Spikes and Toxic Spikes, however, are just options that can often provide to be very useful and the Pokemon that can set it are often great natural fits in general.
I wanted to note this when I saw this post at first but I completely forgot to lol

First, I'm glad you took the time to write all of that down, it's very much appreciated, especially from a player of your stature. As a Balance user myself, I agree on all of the points you made thoughout your post. However, and I'm not sure if you did this intentionally for some reason or if I'm just overlooking things, you seem to have forgotten the Pokemon with arguably the highest ceiling in the tier: Volcarona.

Volcarona is easily capable of dismantling Balance faster than you can facepalm yourself so I believe Volcarona counterplay is also essential in order for a Balance team to succeed. Anyway, that's my experience.
 
I wanted to note this when I saw this post at first but I completely forgot to lol

First, I'm glad you took the time to write all of that down, it's very much appreciated, especially from a player of your stature. As a Balance user myself, I agree on all of the points you made thoughout your post. However, and I'm not sure if you did this intentionally for some reason or if I'm just overlooking things, you seem to have forgotten the Pokemon with arguably the highest ceiling in the tier: Volcarona.

Volcarona is easily capable of dismantling Balance faster than you can facepalm yourself so I believe Volcarona counterplay is also essential in order for a Balance team to succeed. Anyway, that's my experience.

I like something like Scarf Stone Edge Chomp or Keledo for Volcarona counterplay on Balance/BO teams honestly. Maybe even scarf rock slide Excadrill too, though that loses out to Sand Rush/SD LO variants as well as being outsped by +1 Volc so needs too come in on an aggressive double.
 
Something I've been digging recently to help combat the Z-Chomp wave is Physically Defensive CM + Pain Split Magearna with either Bulu support or Shuca Berry. It's not anything new but the massive bulk lets you contend with a lot of dangerous mons compressed in one slot (+2 Hawlucha, MMedi in a pinch, +1 MLop if healthy, SD Bulu, some Kartana, M-Maw, Kyurem-Black, etc. If you're Fairium Z, you can also pivot perfectly vs most torn variants as theyre mostly knock hurri turn.) and also helps as a pseudo-stallbreaker of sorts. Wiki Berry is also an interesting item that makes some matchups easier too. It's not a perfect mon by any means and doesn't replace AV at what it does (vs stuff like Gren) but still, a nice set.

(you can run spa with Fairium Z if you want; speed outpaces most MMaw)

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Magearna @ Shuca Berry / Fairium Z / Wiki Berry
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 216 HP / 228 Def / 16 SpD / 48 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Pain Split
- Calm Mind
 
I just wanted to post something about a Pokemon that I believe has unjustly went a bit under the radar for a while:

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Mega Latios

While it was very relevant for a while, Mega Latios sees little usage nowadays. With the metagame starting to favor different Steel-types like specially defensive Heatran, Jirachi, and Heart Swap + Pain Split Magearna to check Psychic-types, I do not think that this is justified and believe that Mega Latios is amazing in the current metagame. Mega Latios is absolutely devastating for teams that tend to rely on these Pokemon to blanket check all Psychic-types. To add onto this, Pokemon such as Kartana and Garchomp are at an all time high, which Mega Latios does really well against. Lastly, a lot of Tapu Bulu are running far less Special Defense EVs, meaning that Mega Latios can afford to drop Ice Beam for Draco Meteor relatively comfortably, meaning that it can pressure Mega Alakazam and Ash-Greninja much more easily, which was previously a pretty big issue.

E: I didn’t get the idea from blunder but I agree with what he said.
 
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I just wanted to post something about a Pokemon that I believe has unjustly went a bit under the radar for a while:

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Mega Latios

While it was very relevant for a while, Mega Latios sees little usage nowadays. With the metagame starting to favor different Steel-types like specially defensive Heatran, Jirachi, and Heart Swap + Pain Split Magearna to check Psychic-types, I do not think that this is justified and believe that Mega Latios is amazing in the current metagame. Mega Latios is absolutely devastating for teams that tend to rely on these Pokemon to blanket check all Psychic-types. To add onto this, Pokemon such as Kartana and Garchomp are at an all time high, which Mega Latios does really well against. Lastly, a lot of Tapu Bulu are running far less Special Defense EVs, meaning that Mega Latios can afford to drop Ice Beam for Draco Meteor relatively comfortably, meaning that it can pressure Mega Alakazam and Ash-Greninja much more easily, which was previously a pretty big issue.

Yeah, Blunder also talked about this in his newest video (I suppose that's where you got the idea from) and I definitely agree that it's underrated right now for the reasons mentioned.
 

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Just as I had predicted, (and subsequently getting crap for it with some people even going as far as deleting my posts) the Specs set has finally dropped from its number one spot in item usage with Electrium Z taking its spot. Even more surprising is that the Scarf set saw more usage than the Specs set in last month's usage statistics.

So what do you guys attribute these changes to and what do you guys think the future holds for Tapu Koko in the SM OU metagame?
 
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