April Fools ended 10 days ago bruh, not falling for itSo, I think Zam-Crowned is really underrated. While it would be better if it could hold an item, it can live attacks from Calyrex-Shadow and (Most of the time) live a zacian-h close combat. Here are the calcs.
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 169-201 (52 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zacian Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Meanwhile, it can OHKO the attackers with various moves.
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 460-544 (134.8 - 159.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian: 320-378 (98.4 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Also, it does pretty well against Yveltal
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Yveltal: 226-266 (49.6 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Knock Off vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 42-51 (12.9 - 15.6%) -- possible 7HKO
0- SpA Dark Aura Yveltal Snarl vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 33-39 (10.1 - 12%) -- possible 9HKO
So yeah, Zams pretty good. Here's my favorite set.
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Wild Charge
- Crunch
-
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Metagame Ubers Metagame and Set Discussion v4 - Crown Tundra [Zacian-Hero Banned]
- Thread starter Icemaster
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Great work compiling this!Usage stats for rounds 9, 10, 11, and all 3 combined for seasonal. Next post will be after the tour concludes with both the last 3 rounds and the whole tour's cumulative stats, both of which will be interesting to see. Some new picks have started to pop up quite a bit more later in the rounds, things are being discovered more and the meta is progressing a bit so I wanted to highlight just a few things along with the standard ones I mention.
SSNL R9
Code:+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- + | Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % | + ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- + | 1 | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane | 21 | 87.50% | 52.38% | | 1 | Yveltal | 21 | 87.50% | 52.38% | | 3 | Eternatus | 18 | 75.00% | 50.00% | | 4 | Zacian | 10 | 41.67% | 50.00% | | 5 | Calyrex-Shadow | 9 | 37.50% | 66.67% | | 6 | Xerneas | 7 | 29.17% | 71.43% | | 6 | Kyogre | 7 | 29.17% | 14.29% | | 8 | Zygarde | 5 | 20.83% | 40.00% | | 9 | Ho-Oh | 4 | 16.67% | 75.00% | | 9 | Urshifu-* | 4 | 16.67% | 50.00% | | 9 | Groudon | 4 | 16.67% | 25.00% | | 9 | Blissey | 4 | 16.67% | 0.00% | | 13 | Marshadow | 2 | 8.33% | 100.00% | | 13 | Tangrowth | 2 | 8.33% | 100.00% | | 13 | Dracovish | 2 | 8.33% | 50.00% | | 13 | Shedinja | 2 | 8.33% | 50.00% | | 13 | Pheromosa | 2 | 8.33% | 50.00% | | 13 | Aerodactyl | 2 | 8.33% | 50.00% | | 13 | Slurpuff | 2 | 8.33% | 50.00% | | 13 | Rayquaza | 2 | 8.33% | 0.00% | | 21 | Giratina-Origin | 1 | 4.17% | 100.00% | | 21 | Palkia | 1 | 4.17% | 100.00% | | 21 | Tyranitar | 1 | 4.17% | 100.00% | | 21 | Excadrill | 1 | 4.17% | 100.00% | | 21 | Galvantula | 1 | 4.17% | 100.00% | | 21 | Cloyster | 1 | 4.17% | 100.00% | | 21 | Shuckle | 1 | 4.17% | 100.00% | | 21 | Darmanitan-Galar | 1 | 4.17% | 0.00% | | 21 | Zarude | 1 | 4.17% | 0.00% | | 21 | Landorus-Therian | 1 | 4.17% | 0.00% | | 21 | Ferrothorn | 1 | 4.17% | 0.00% | | 21 | Lunala | 1 | 4.17% | 0.00% | | 21 | Zekrom | 1 | 4.17% | 0.00% | | 21 | Ditto | 1 | 4.17% | 0.00% |
SSNL R10
Code:+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- + | Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % | + ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- + | 1 | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane | 26 | 100.00% | 50.00% | | 2 | Yveltal | 23 | 88.46% | 47.83% | | 3 | Eternatus | 20 | 76.92% | 55.00% | | 4 | Calyrex-Shadow | 8 | 30.77% | 50.00% | | 4 | Ho-Oh | 8 | 30.77% | 50.00% | | 6 | Zacian | 6 | 23.08% | 66.67% | | 6 | Zygarde | 6 | 23.08% | 50.00% | | 6 | Kyogre | 6 | 23.08% | 33.33% | | 9 | Blissey | 5 | 19.23% | 60.00% | | 10 | Tangrowth | 4 | 15.38% | 75.00% | | 10 | Xerneas | 4 | 15.38% | 50.00% | | 10 | Lunala | 4 | 15.38% | 25.00% | | 10 | Groudon | 4 | 15.38% | 25.00% | | 14 | Ferrothorn | 3 | 11.54% | 100.00% | | 15 | Marshadow | 2 | 7.69% | 100.00% | | 15 | Ditto | 2 | 7.69% | 100.00% | | 15 | Zarude-Dada | 2 | 7.69% | 50.00% | | 15 | Calyrex-Ice | 2 | 7.69% | 50.00% | | 15 | Clefable | 2 | 7.69% | 50.00% | | 15 | Shedinja | 2 | 7.69% | 50.00% | | 15 | Toxapex | 2 | 7.69% | 50.00% | | 15 | Gastrodon | 2 | 7.69% | 50.00% | | 15 | Palkia | 2 | 7.69% | 50.00% | | 15 | Pheromosa | 2 | 7.69% | 0.00% | | 15 | Landorus-Therian | 2 | 7.69% | 0.00% | | 26 | Zarude | 1 | 3.85% | 100.00% | | 26 | Magnezone | 1 | 3.85% | 100.00% | | 26 | Giratina-Origin | 1 | 3.85% | 0.00% | | 26 | Urshifu-* | 1 | 3.85% | 0.00% | | 26 | Dracovish | 1 | 3.85% | 0.00% | | 26 | Darmanitan-Galar | 1 | 3.85% | 0.00% | | 26 | Zekrom | 1 | 3.85% | 0.00% |
SSNL R11
Code:+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- + | Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % | + ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- + | 1 | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane | 17 | 94.44% | 52.94% | | 2 | Yveltal | 14 | 77.78% | 42.86% | | 3 | Eternatus | 10 | 55.56% | 60.00% | | 4 | Calyrex-Shadow | 8 | 44.44% | 62.50% | | 5 | Zacian | 7 | 38.89% | 28.57% | | 6 | Ho-Oh | 5 | 27.78% | 80.00% | | 6 | Blissey | 5 | 27.78% | 60.00% | | 6 | Zygarde | 5 | 27.78% | 40.00% | | 6 | Kyogre | 5 | 27.78% | 20.00% | | 10 | Xerneas | 4 | 22.22% | 50.00% | | 10 | Tangrowth | 4 | 22.22% | 50.00% | | 10 | Groudon | 4 | 22.22% | 25.00% | | 10 | Slurpuff | 4 | 22.22% | 25.00% | | 14 | Marshadow | 2 | 11.11% | 100.00% | | 14 | Gastrodon | 2 | 11.11% | 100.00% | | 14 | Tyranitar | 2 | 11.11% | 50.00% | | 14 | Amoonguss | 2 | 11.11% | 0.00% | | 18 | Ditto | 1 | 5.56% | 100.00% | | 18 | Zarude | 1 | 5.56% | 100.00% | | 18 | Zarude-Dada | 1 | 5.56% | 100.00% | | 18 | Excadrill | 1 | 5.56% | 100.00% | | 18 | Ferrothorn | 1 | 5.56% | 100.00% | | 18 | Darmanitan-Galar | 1 | 5.56% | 0.00% | | 18 | Rayquaza | 1 | 5.56% | 0.00% | | 18 | Toxapex | 1 | 5.56% | 0.00% |
Round 9, 10, 11
Code:+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- + | Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % | + ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- + | 1 | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane | 64 | 94.12% | 51.56% | | 2 | Yveltal | 58 | 85.29% | 48.28% | | 3 | Eternatus | 48 | 70.59% | 54.17% | | 4 | Calyrex-Shadow | 25 | 36.76% | 60.00% | | 5 | Zacian | 23 | 33.82% | 47.83% | | 6 | Kyogre | 18 | 26.47% | 22.22% | | 7 | Ho-Oh | 17 | 25.00% | 64.71% | | 8 | Zygarde | 16 | 23.53% | 43.75% | | 9 | Xerneas | 15 | 22.06% | 60.00% | | 10 | Blissey | 14 | 20.59% | 42.86% | | 11 | Groudon | 12 | 17.65% | 25.00% | | 12 | Tangrowth | 10 | 14.71% | 70.00% | | 13 | Marshadow | 6 | 8.82% | 100.00% | | 13 | Slurpuff | 6 | 8.82% | 33.33% | | 15 | Ferrothorn | 5 | 7.35% | 80.00% | | 15 | Urshifu-* | 5 | 7.35% | 40.00% | | 15 | Lunala | 5 | 7.35% | 20.00% | | 18 | Ditto | 4 | 5.88% | 75.00% | | 18 | Gastrodon | 4 | 5.88% | 75.00% | | 18 | Shedinja | 4 | 5.88% | 50.00% | | 18 | Pheromosa | 4 | 5.88% | 25.00% | | 22 | Palkia | 3 | 4.41% | 66.67% | | 22 | Zarude | 3 | 4.41% | 66.67% | | 22 | Tyranitar | 3 | 4.41% | 66.67% | | 22 | Zarude-Dada | 3 | 4.41% | 66.67% | | 22 | Dracovish | 3 | 4.41% | 33.33% | | 22 | Toxapex | 3 | 4.41% | 33.33% | | 22 | Darmanitan-Galar | 3 | 4.41% | 0.00% | | 22 | Rayquaza | 3 | 4.41% | 0.00% | | 22 | Landorus-Therian | 3 | 4.41% | 0.00% | | 31 | Excadrill | 2 | 2.94% | 100.00% | | 31 | Giratina-Origin | 2 | 2.94% | 50.00% | | 31 | Aerodactyl | 2 | 2.94% | 50.00% | | 31 | Calyrex-Ice | 2 | 2.94% | 50.00% | | 31 | Clefable | 2 | 2.94% | 50.00% | | 31 | Zekrom | 2 | 2.94% | 0.00% | | 31 | Amoonguss | 2 | 2.94% | 0.00% | | 38 | Galvantula | 1 | 1.47% | 100.00% | | 38 | Cloyster | 1 | 1.47% | 100.00% | | 38 | Shuckle | 1 | 1.47% | 100.00% | | 38 | Magnezone | 1 | 1.47% | 100.00% |
Top 3 so have to mention them again, and in these recent weeks dusk mane seems to be pulling a little bit ahead of Yveltal in usage. I think this is mostly due to the fact that alternatives to Yveltal exist which I'll talk about also whereas there's essentially nothing that can fulfill the roles that ndm plays in the meta. I think it's an invaluable pick that almost every team should have and clearly almost every team does have it. Eternatus still holding on to a secure third, with it being so much higher than everything else especially in round 10. Offensive sets are picking up a lot more with Blissey, Gastrodon, and other water resists to cover Kyogre because of how solid Meteor Beam and Life Orb variants are, so with it having multiple amazing sets it makes sense that it's up there.
Same thing between these 2, traded who was used more for a few rounds and are still the top 2 breakers in the tier. Their checks are way more common than they are which is only natural, so nothing's really changed with them.
Zarude and Tyranitar in particular got a good bit more usage, combining for 9 over the 3 shorter rounds. I think both are really solid rn, Zarude can sometimes just solo teams with its great move options and stats, with Jungle Healing being a blessing more than anything despite the lower recovery amount just because of how good healing off status is. Tyranitar saw a decent bit of usage on full sand and did well on the teams, personally I think sand is really solid so that isn't too surprising, and I do think it can even go up if people explore the playstyle more.
Marshadow didn't lose for 3 rounds, showing that it's an incredible pick currently. It's super hard to wall and priority is great, making it one of the most potent offensive pokemon. It fits on a lot of team styles as a pseudo speed control option with Shadow Sneak and is able to beat down common offensive cores made of the top 3 Pokemon which also having coverage options for things like Ho-oh trying to pivot around it.
Compared to how its usage was in the last post, this time around Zekrom flopped for 3 rounds. Only 2 uses and 0 wins overall, probably in part because people have started adapting teams because of how big of a threat it is. I don't think it'll stay down overall and it can definitely still win games, just had a few poor ones stat wise. Groudon had a lot more uses, but similarly poor stats. 25% winrate isn't very good for something that strong, but again I think it's just a small meta thing that won't be consistent. They've started running Overheat more commonly for Tangrowth, but even with that Tangrowth as a check to both of these threats has a much higher winrate still.
Despite the bad stats and mediocre usage, they're still starting to rise past their almost non existent status from before which I think makes a lot of sense. Regenerator is so good rn, and they can both fulfill really important roles for teams as pivots and status spreaders. Likely only see them going up from here overall, they're fairly solid picks.
I'm looking forward to the last few rounds of seasonal, there's a lot of interesting games and still so much to explore with this meta given how new it is. I've had a lot of fun playing in seasonal and I think buliding has also been really fun despite what people think about the restriction on the tier, since I've been able to run a lot of diverse things and build teams that work (or don't) with some cool picks making things feel more free than they look on a surface level. I think things are really solid and fairly stable rn, so I'm just interested in seeing how the whole tour and the tier continues to play out.
Some of my thoughts too:
All of these had at least 10 uses with a 60% winrate or more. Calyrex I think is pretty impressive considering the big sample size it had compared to the others, which also probably explains the search for alternatives like Tyranitar and Zarude compared to Yveltal (although Yveltal's lower usage on week 11 seemed to be particularly good for Calyrex too for obvious reasons). Ho-Oh, despite the lower usage, had an even better winrate at 64.71%, greatly appreciating Necrozma's usage only getting higher over time and the fact that Zacian both lets it act as a check to one of the two top offensive threats in the meta and also raising the usage of the bulky Grass-types. Xerneas had a great showing, particularly on week 9 where it got a massive 71.43% winrate while maintain a great 29.17% usage. I think this speaks a lot about the power of the core of Zacian + Xerneas, with no Pokémon being truly capable of handling both of them well without being overwhelmed, and I also think its success influenced Ho-Oh's ascension over the three weeks. Finally, Tangrowth keeps solidifying itself more and more as a staple of the tier, being the last of the two main cuts for usage overall (first from Eternatus to Calyrex and the next one being from Tangrowth to Marshadow), and winning 7 out of 10 games shouldn't be underestimated ever. I think this also explains the drops for Groudon and Zekrom - both took advantage of the big core of Necrozma/Yveltal/Eternatus, but struggle more once Tangrowth enters on the picture.
These had particularly poor showings this time. Out of the six Slurpuff uses, 4 were on week 11 - and 3 of those were loses. Galvantula and Shuckle both won their solo games, and if you combine them, webs get a more respectable 50% winrate. There has been some hype around Slurpuff as the best Webs lead over Shuckle more recently, which also can be seen with it being the only one with more than one use, but it at least doesn't seen to bring any major help compared to the rest at all. Like Fc had already mentioned, Groudon and especially Zekrom had terrible showings for A rank mons, with Zekrom being almost at the bottom of the usage and not even winning a game. This might change on the future, but their results doesn't support anything about the general public perception around them. Lunala also only won 1 out of the 5 games it appeared - you would think that the poor showings of Zekrom and Groudon could be motivated by it being a good answer to both, but this wasn't the case. If the former two continue their current trend of not very good showings, I think Lunala's future doesn't look bright at all.
I separated this one because it's by far the biggest discrepancy between usage and winrate. 26.47% usage puts it at #6 most used Pokémon, but it also gained an atrocius 22.22% winrate - the only Pokémon with lower winrate than that were those with 0% winrate, and unlike them, Kyogre can't complain about a small sample size at all. There was no round that you could point out that dragged Kyogre down - all three weeks had very bad showings, but high usage means people still believe this Pokémon contributes a lot to the team. The only thing I could point out that could hurt it is the relatively high Blissey usage, which is an even stronger answer to it than the near omnipresent Eternatus. Despite not having a super high usage, Ferrothorn also had a good showing with 4 out of 5 games won. This one is what I'm most curious to hear about other people talking.
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I could make a long post about how bad is this thing but im just gonna say this: Zamazenta is currently being suspect in the OU metagame LOLSo, I think Zam-Crowned is really underrated. While it would be better if it could hold an item, it can live attacks from Calyrex-Shadow and (Most of the time) live a zacian-h close combat. Here are the calcs.
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 169-201 (52 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zacian Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Meanwhile, it can OHKO the attackers with various moves.
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 460-544 (134.8 - 159.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian: 320-378 (98.4 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Also, it does pretty well against Yveltal
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Yveltal: 226-266 (49.6 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Knock Off vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 42-51 (12.9 - 15.6%) -- possible 7HKO
0- SpA Dark Aura Yveltal Snarl vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 33-39 (10.1 - 12%) -- possible 9HKO
So yeah, Zams pretty good. Here's my favorite set.
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Wild Charge
- Crunch
And it would be broken in the OU Meta. It can live a Kartana Sacred Sword, which ignores Dauntless Shield. Also, it gets Iron Defense if you doubt it.
Ah yes, Iron Defense with no Body Press. I’m sure thats useful for sitting around and doing nothing.
Anyway, this is not OU, so we should really stay on topic with our tier.
All I'm saying is, Zam-C can be useful. Its bulk is decent, but you're really mostly gonna use it to kill faster offensive attackers.
Also, it gets Metal Burst, which could be useful.
Also, it gets Metal Burst, which could be useful.
There is literally no reason to use Zamazenta-C in Ubers. It is arguably the worst Pokémon on the VR. There is reason why by it’s being suspected to be potentially allowed in OU. Anything Zamazenta-C can do, offensive threats like Marshadow, NDM, and Zacian can do better. And defensively, Zamazenta-C is outclassed by NDM, Eternatus, Yveltal, etc.
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There is literally no reason to play Ubers. It is arguaby the worst metagame in Smogon. There is a reason why Zamazenta-C is being suspected to be potentially allowed in OU. Anything most Pokemon can do, offensive threats like Marshadow, NDM, and Zacian can do better. And defensively, almost every Pokemon is outclassed by NDM, Eternatus, Yvetal, etc.
I used to think this was a limited feature of clueless new users who joined the Ubers room, but guess not. So, since I'm nice as angel, I'll remind you all:
Tiering decisions made by OU are completely unrelated to Ubers. If something is banned from OU to Ubers it doesn't mean it's good in Ubers, and similarly if something is unbanned from Ubers to OU (or gets tested for it) then it doesn't mean that Pokemon is bad in Ubers. If I see any posts here using any OU suspect or tiering decision as an argument for or against their point, I'll very likely delete your post.
While I expected Zamazenta to get some attention because of the suspect, I didn't expect people to be so dumb about it.
Since I'm here anyway so I'll just also give my opinion on Zamazenta-C: best set is probably Howl+3 attacks, with last being Wild Charge though there might be merit to run Crunch (Lunala, Shedinja, ohko Caly without having to boost). Still, defensively it accomplishes very little and offensively it's outclassed except in very niche scenarios, so meh.
Tiering decisions made by OU are completely unrelated to Ubers. If something is banned from OU to Ubers it doesn't mean it's good in Ubers, and similarly if something is unbanned from Ubers to OU (or gets tested for it) then it doesn't mean that Pokemon is bad in Ubers. If I see any posts here using any OU suspect or tiering decision as an argument for or against their point, I'll very likely delete your post.
While I expected Zamazenta to get some attention because of the suspect, I didn't expect people to be so dumb about it.
Since I'm here anyway so I'll just also give my opinion on Zamazenta-C: best set is probably Howl+3 attacks, with last being Wild Charge though there might be merit to run Crunch (Lunala, Shedinja, ohko Caly without having to boost). Still, defensively it accomplishes very little and offensively it's outclassed except in very niche scenarios, so meh.
I’m not sure if you’re trolling or genuinely uninformed of why Zamazenta-C is so bad, but I’ll make this quick for you.
Offensively, it is outclassed by damn well every physical attacker in the tier. Marshadow hits harder due to its ability to hold a Life Orb, access to its
Defensively, it’s even worse. It can’t act as a Fairy or Psychic check to its additional Fighting typing, it has no recovery outside of Rest, and its typing is very situational and gives it weaknesses to Ground, Fighting, and Fire. NDM outclasses it due to Moonlight, it can set rocks, Prism Armor lets it stomach supereffective hits, it has more set variety, and most importantly, it can check Fairies and Psychics better than Zama ever can. This isn’t even getting into other Steel-types like Ferrothorn, Corviknight, and even Magearna. As you can see from this selection, all of these Pokemon have better recovery options, crucial Fairy resistances, and other tools, such as Spikes, U-turn, and T-wave/Volt Switch.
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It was likely an April Fool's prank, Zamazenra-C is completely unviable in Ubers and doesn't even belong in meme teams.
Ok, to steer the discussion back into a more favorable topic, I want to talk about a brand new rising star of the tier: Landorus!
No, no, no! Not the stupid OU tiger! the OTHER Landorus! This guy! The incarnate form!
Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earth Power
- Rock Slide
- Superpower
- Sludge Wave / Knock Off / Stealth Rock
Lando-I’s been seeing quite some use in tournaments and even on ladder lately, which can be more or less traced back to how it utterly demolishes the current defensive cores. NDM and Eternatus? Ripped to shreds by Earth Power. Ho-oh and Yveltal hoping to safely come in on a ground move? Comfortably crushed by Rock Slide. Blissey? Cracked open by Superpower, usually after it switches into an attack. You can even fit other things as well! Lunala won’t want to eat a Knock Off if its multiscale is broken, and Xerneas gets popped by Sludge Wave. Its coverage is immensely useful for busting up cores and teams alike. It’s also rocking a neat speed tier as well, outpacing base 99s such as Xerneas and Yveltal, as well as the unboosted 90s crowd.
But its not without its flaws as well. It’s typing is sorta useful for things like Regieleki and Defensive Groudon, but it has VERY piss poor defensive utility, and won’t do much in the way of boosted sweepers, or very fast opponents. The pros definetly put up a good showing compared to the cons, so it’s defiently not all bad, and you could do worse for an offensive mon.
It’s a really fun breaker, and I’d recommend you all to try it out!
No, no, no! Not the stupid OU tiger! the OTHER Landorus! This guy! The incarnate form!
Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earth Power
- Rock Slide
- Superpower
- Sludge Wave / Knock Off / Stealth Rock
Lando-I’s been seeing quite some use in tournaments and even on ladder lately, which can be more or less traced back to how it utterly demolishes the current defensive cores. NDM and Eternatus? Ripped to shreds by Earth Power. Ho-oh and Yveltal hoping to safely come in on a ground move? Comfortably crushed by Rock Slide. Blissey? Cracked open by Superpower, usually after it switches into an attack. You can even fit other things as well! Lunala won’t want to eat a Knock Off if its multiscale is broken, and Xerneas gets popped by Sludge Wave. Its coverage is immensely useful for busting up cores and teams alike. It’s also rocking a neat speed tier as well, outpacing base 99s such as Xerneas and Yveltal, as well as the unboosted 90s crowd.
But its not without its flaws as well. It’s typing is sorta useful for things like Regieleki and Defensive Groudon, but it has VERY piss poor defensive utility, and won’t do much in the way of boosted sweepers, or very fast opponents. The pros definetly put up a good showing compared to the cons, so it’s defiently not all bad, and you could do worse for an offensive mon.
It’s a really fun breaker, and I’d recommend you all to try it out!
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A couple innovations (as they've most definitely been called) to feast your eyes on:
Mike Stronta (Groudon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
EVs: 240 HP / 108 Atk / 144 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Toxic
- Swords Dance
- Precipice Blades
- Stone Edge
Inspired by Sub + Toxic Zygarde, here comes the next ground type to status all of its checks. Opponent trying to pivot around with Lunala, Ho-Oh, Zygarde, Kyogre, or whatever on that Overheat? Avoid the mind games entirely. This is favored for teams especially weak to Zekrom (that don't want to run a passive Tangrowth or Lunala) and that partner well under the sun, such as Ho-oh (which I spam greatly) and NDM for that complete physically defensive core, not to mention extra Morning Sun recovery is free. The EV spread is described in the C&C but here it is:
Example Team: https://pokepast.es/720b7d41ee431161
Jeff (Heatran) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 136 HP / 252 SpA / 120 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock / Toxic / Protect
Shoutouts my nickname specialist.
Continuing the fat sun initiative is offensive Heatran designed to trap and pave way for the tier's biggest breakers. Imagine you're playing a ladder game and you unironically face Defensive Ogre + Heatran. Rain Heatran? BasedWhat? on crack? Sub 1000 ELO? Well, on paper, Ogre stops Zygarde and Ho-Oh for Heatran, while Heatran traps Blissey and Eternatus, and scares out Zarude ("and don't forget Shedinja") for Ogre. You've got yourself an annoying core to break. Heatran's last slot can either give Rocks to free up an NDM for example, Toxic its only checks in Zygarde, Palkia, Ogre, Gastrodon, etc. or Protect for recovery and more residual trapping damage from Magma Storm. Once again, we hit the nice 220 Speed benchmark for how good it is to reach.
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 178-210 (37 - 43.6%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Alternatively, pair this with a Calyrex-S and Toxic that SpDef Yveltal hoping to best you, and best them.
Mike Stronta (Groudon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
EVs: 240 HP / 108 Atk / 144 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Toxic
- Swords Dance
- Precipice Blades
- Stone Edge
Inspired by Sub + Toxic Zygarde, here comes the next ground type to status all of its checks. Opponent trying to pivot around with Lunala, Ho-Oh, Zygarde, Kyogre, or whatever on that Overheat? Avoid the mind games entirely. This is favored for teams especially weak to Zekrom (that don't want to run a passive Tangrowth or Lunala) and that partner well under the sun, such as Ho-oh (which I spam greatly) and NDM for that complete physically defensive core, not to mention extra Morning Sun recovery is free. The EV spread is described in the C&C but here it is:
- HP is 401 which is a Leftovers number + 1 for max recovery
- Attack allows +2 Stone Edge to OHKO Max HP / 0 Def Yveltal
- Defense lives +2 Foul Play from 0 Atk Yveltal
- Speed allows Groudon to outspeed paralyzed non-Scarf Calyrex-S
Example Team: https://pokepast.es/720b7d41ee431161
Jeff (Heatran) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 136 HP / 252 SpA / 120 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock / Toxic / Protect
Shoutouts my nickname specialist.
Continuing the fat sun initiative is offensive Heatran designed to trap and pave way for the tier's biggest breakers. Imagine you're playing a ladder game and you unironically face Defensive Ogre + Heatran. Rain Heatran? BasedWhat? on crack? Sub 1000 ELO? Well, on paper, Ogre stops Zygarde and Ho-Oh for Heatran, while Heatran traps Blissey and Eternatus, and scares out Zarude ("and don't forget Shedinja") for Ogre. You've got yourself an annoying core to break. Heatran's last slot can either give Rocks to free up an NDM for example, Toxic its only checks in Zygarde, Palkia, Ogre, Gastrodon, etc. or Protect for recovery and more residual trapping damage from Magma Storm. Once again, we hit the nice 220 Speed benchmark for how good it is to reach.
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 178-210 (37 - 43.6%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Alternatively, pair this with a Calyrex-S and Toxic that SpDef Yveltal hoping to best you, and best them.
Alright, with the results from the most recent survey being posted, I wanted to spark a discussion here before making a tiering decision one way or the other. I value the community's input and as I've said in this thread before, nothing matters more than actually getting it right when it comes to Ubers tiering. We only have to make a handful of decisions each generation, so the last thing I want to do is rush into a regrettable decision.
Speaking for myself, I'm conflicted. My own experiences and the qualified survey results have lead me to not be 100% convinced we should suspect test Calyrex-S right now. I don't hate how Calyrex-S and Yveltal form a kind of yin and yang dynamic, whereas Zacian-H offers the metagame very little other than headaches. Beating it can often come down to guessing games, whereas counterplay to Calyrex-S is more defined. I like what Choice Scarf Calyrex-S offers against hard offense, too. Plus, could you imagine not having to use a physically defensive Necrozma-DM on most of your teams?
That said, Calyrex-S is obviously still massively restricting. It's pretty much Zarude-Dada or bust, as well as the sometimes used Yveltal being a viable option as far as counterplay is concerned. In all seriousness, Calyrex-S can consistently mess up Yveltal through Trick and subsequent Stealth Rock damage, as you're forced to go to Yveltal every time Calyrex-S gets to attack. Most of us have gone through the motions countless times; it's obviously a very limiting presence. A world without Calyrex-S would result in a lot more diversity in the team builder without a doubt.
All of this leaves me to ask you guys the following: what do you think should be our next step in tiering, and why? When we have conflicting results and opinions like right now, I want to make sure we first discuss the topic further before going down a path we can't walk back. The three options are suspect testing Calyrex-S, suspect testing Zacian-H or not suspect testing anything at all for now. If you have a strong opinion one way or another, then please do post and join the discussion. Let's make sure we do this right.
Speaking for myself, I'm conflicted. My own experiences and the qualified survey results have lead me to not be 100% convinced we should suspect test Calyrex-S right now. I don't hate how Calyrex-S and Yveltal form a kind of yin and yang dynamic, whereas Zacian-H offers the metagame very little other than headaches. Beating it can often come down to guessing games, whereas counterplay to Calyrex-S is more defined. I like what Choice Scarf Calyrex-S offers against hard offense, too. Plus, could you imagine not having to use a physically defensive Necrozma-DM on most of your teams?
That said, Calyrex-S is obviously still massively restricting. It's pretty much Zarude-Dada or bust, as well as the sometimes used Yveltal being a viable option as far as counterplay is concerned. In all seriousness, Calyrex-S can consistently mess up Yveltal through Trick and subsequent Stealth Rock damage, as you're forced to go to Yveltal every time Calyrex-S gets to attack. Most of us have gone through the motions countless times; it's obviously a very limiting presence. A world without Calyrex-S would result in a lot more diversity in the team builder without a doubt.
All of this leaves me to ask you guys the following: what do you think should be our next step in tiering, and why? When we have conflicting results and opinions like right now, I want to make sure we first discuss the topic further before going down a path we can't walk back. The three options are suspect testing Calyrex-S, suspect testing Zacian-H or not suspect testing anything at all for now. If you have a strong opinion one way or another, then please do post and join the discussion. Let's make sure we do this right.
I don't really care the order of how Zacian-H and Calyrex-S are suspected, but I think they both should be for the sake of asking the community. Here are a couple things I'd say about SS Ubers right now.
There remains far too many matchup issues right now with these two mons. It's absurdly hard to build towards certain ideas. Build too fat to cover these options "optimally" and you get smashed by any Hyper Offense, or hard lose to certain brands of Stall fishing. You think SubSeed DPP Ludicolo in Rain was cruel and unusual punishment? SubSeed Calyrex-S is such a ridiculously themed threat and the fact that it WORKS is asanine keeping in this tier. Incorrect prep for Choice-locked Calyrex-S? You can lose straight up to SubSeed without U-Turn Yveltal or Whirlwind Ho-oh. SD Babiri Zacian arguably beats NDM (its only "COUNTER") played well every time. Predict Choice Band? There is nothing safe you can do to avoid losing a mon if it clicks SD on a pivot to Tangrowth/Ho-oh/Toxapex/whatever sometimes. (Or better yet, dumb comments like "just let it get a kill and revenge it with Calyrex-S.")
SS Ubers right now can be summarized as Zacian, Calyrex-S, and Kyogre, their premiere checks, and mons that have good, easily abused MUs against their checks. Every SS game feels linear. Either you win outright by matchup or relegate yourself to a stallfest between two balances. Hell, the fact that Toxapex (and the prevalence of demonic stalls in this ULT) is as functionally great as it is speaks to the fact that the Yveltal/NDM core is almost always necessary. You just abuse what has to be run on the opposing side and there's nothing they can do about it.
There remains far too many matchup issues right now with these two mons. It's absurdly hard to build towards certain ideas. Build too fat to cover these options "optimally" and you get smashed by any Hyper Offense, or hard lose to certain brands of Stall fishing. You think SubSeed DPP Ludicolo in Rain was cruel and unusual punishment? SubSeed Calyrex-S is such a ridiculously themed threat and the fact that it WORKS is asanine keeping in this tier. Incorrect prep for Choice-locked Calyrex-S? You can lose straight up to SubSeed without U-Turn Yveltal or Whirlwind Ho-oh. SD Babiri Zacian arguably beats NDM (its only "COUNTER") played well every time. Predict Choice Band? There is nothing safe you can do to avoid losing a mon if it clicks SD on a pivot to Tangrowth/Ho-oh/Toxapex/whatever sometimes. (Or better yet, dumb comments like "just let it get a kill and revenge it with Calyrex-S.")
SS Ubers right now can be summarized as Zacian, Calyrex-S, and Kyogre, their premiere checks, and mons that have good, easily abused MUs against their checks. Every SS game feels linear. Either you win outright by matchup or relegate yourself to a stallfest between two balances. Hell, the fact that Toxapex (and the prevalence of demonic stalls in this ULT) is as functionally great as it is speaks to the fact that the Yveltal/NDM core is almost always necessary. You just abuse what has to be run on the opposing side and there's nothing they can do about it.
At first I wanted Calyrex-SR to be banned because I thought it was just too much for Ubers in its present state because of its specs and scarf sets being really overwhelming, not to mention its sash set on sticky web teams. But I changed my mind, especially taking into consideration the new trends that arose since the beginning of ULT. Tyranitar stalls seem to do really great against it, Zarude(-Dada) is also a decent switch-in as long as Calyrex-SR isn't running Pollen Puff, Fardin also ran shadow ball on his Eternatus which enables it to get past Calyrex-SR if it gets a prediction wrong. Also it can easily be revenge killed by threats such as Marshadow or Yveltal.
On the other hand, Zacian-H has been very powerful since Zacian-Crowned has been banned. It maybe doesn't have a steel type and STAB but it doesn't really matter since it can hold an item and generally hits harder than Zacian-C. Necrozma-Dusk-Man by itself was enough to check Zacian-C but now you are forced to dedicate 2 or 3 Pokemons on your team just to not straight lose to Zacian-H. It also has outs against its supposed switch-ins, with babiri berry it can get past of Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, with Swords dance it can get past of Tangrowth/Ho-Oh/Toxapex. But its choice band set is also really good, you can't go wrong with it, it can win a game by itself if you get a few 50/50s right.
I agree with Tony that we don't need to rush decisions considering we only have a few bans in Ubers but between Calyrex-SR and Zacian-H, the latter being gone would change the tier only for the better while Calyrex-SR being gone means we are no longer "forced" to run SpD Yveltal and I think every Yveltal being offensive life orb / choice band would be harmful for the tier.
On the other hand, Zacian-H has been very powerful since Zacian-Crowned has been banned. It maybe doesn't have a steel type and STAB but it doesn't really matter since it can hold an item and generally hits harder than Zacian-C. Necrozma-Dusk-Man by itself was enough to check Zacian-C but now you are forced to dedicate 2 or 3 Pokemons on your team just to not straight lose to Zacian-H. It also has outs against its supposed switch-ins, with babiri berry it can get past of Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, with Swords dance it can get past of Tangrowth/Ho-Oh/Toxapex. But its choice band set is also really good, you can't go wrong with it, it can win a game by itself if you get a few 50/50s right.
I agree with Tony that we don't need to rush decisions considering we only have a few bans in Ubers but between Calyrex-SR and Zacian-H, the latter being gone would change the tier only for the better while Calyrex-SR being gone means we are no longer "forced" to run SpD Yveltal and I think every Yveltal being offensive life orb / choice band would be harmful for the tier.
With the release of the survey results, I wanted to drop my opinions on things in the current meta. I've been really vocal about what I think should and shouldn't be suspect tested, voting a 1 and a 3 for Calyrex-S and Zacian in the survey respectively, but I'll talk more about each of them here and why I think that way currently.
There are literal essays in this thread alone on why I don't think Calyrex-S is problematic for the tier, but I'll still talk about it and try to justify the probably minority opinion that I think it's genuinely a good presence for the tier. When looking at caly, it's easy to just point out how it requires a check from a somewhat limited pool of mons or else it's going to just win games, which is true. What I don't agree with is the views that you're locked into 100% Snarl Sp.def Yveltal usage or nothing like I've seen the argument spun before. Just on checking Calyrex-S alone, there' s a lot of good ways to go about it, with even the sample teams as well as many that hit high / top ladder running scarf or offensive Yveltal with pivots and being flexible solid structures. With ULT starting, I've also realized and probably a lot of other people have as well, that ttar is really good. Checking stallbreaker Yveltal, Calyrex-S, Ho-Oh, Eternatus, and others while having Stealth Rock support is incredible, and I think it's also a fair and good response to caly that's really hard to break. The point with just mentioning that (and the fact that Zarude is broken) is just to show that there are options, and the way I see it is that if there are multiple, viable, and reliable options to take on a mon it's perfectly fine in the tier. Zacian-C is a good example of the exact opposite, with few, unviable shitmons like quag to beat it that just lost to multiple sets, pp stalling long term, or taking more than 2% chip. Yveltal and ttar can consistently check caly over a game, and with pivots I find it really hard to get caly to do much in most games aside from Trick a scarf and hope your opponent chokes.
As for why I think it's actually beneficial for the tier, is that it keeps the tier in check. I don't mean that things will spiral out of control being broken, but the metagame is in a stable position gameplay wise, with what I believe to be enough room in the builder still rn to have fun ideas. I have probably over 100 ss teams in my builder and I still feel like there's plenty of things to try out since I've hardly built with some cool lower ranking mons with definite niches like Skarmory yet, so I feel like there's still places to go with the meta. With Calyrex-S in particular, I think it also keeps things fast paced and is a really good glue I think holds the tier together. It's a good breaker, cleric, and anti offense mon with the scarf set, and without it around things will be so much slower overall, with mosa topping the speed tier charts as a C+ tier mon and then Zacian a long way below. Breakers like Zekrom can run Adamant freely, and the only thing that really threatens offense at that point will be Ditto. I still believe that keeping some form of "broken checks broken" in Ubers is necessary, and Calyrex-S is good for keeping things in check overall. I can't predict the future of the meta, but I can see things just being a lot slower overall if Calyrex-S is gone, and imo in game is a lot more important than building so just slowing things down and removing one of the top tier mons just because you need a check to it doesn't sit right with me.
I'll definitely elaborate on anything said here and not said here if needed, I firmly believe that Calyrex-S isn't broken and hasn't been since the dynamax ban, and works completely fine in the tier.
As I said above, I put a 3 on the survey for Zacian. Higher than Calyrex-S, but not by much, because I do believe it's just a better mon and more oppressive in the meta. There isn't a single mon that can take 2 of its CB hits always, turning things into a guessing game or stacking regen pivots + helmet in the builder. Babiri SD is also a way to just directly 1v1 dusk mane which is its best check, being a really good set also. The difference between this being broken and not for me is how it functions in game rather than on paper. Offensively revenging it feels easier with scarfers and Calyrex-S around, and it gets super easily worn down for the most part, whereas Calyrex-S can Trick boots onto itself. With Zacian also being heavily prediction reliant and extremely momentum sinking if anything goes wrong, I think that's what holds it back a bit. The way Tony put it is something I don't agree with but understand:
In terms of what I want for the tier, I want a stable tier gameplay wise without having to ban all the top tier threats. I do think we've essentially achieved this, and further banning is just for convenience as people don't like having restrictions placed in the builder, but the fact is mons will always be a game based around match ups and trying to have consistent teams against these threats. I think since you can consistently check them like I mentioned, they're fine for the meta and a ban, while it might give more freedom to the player, is unnecessary. I don't want to ban unless the meta is in a truly bad spot gameplay wise, and I've seen through many ULT, SSNL, and other tour games as well as my own games that things just feel stable, with the top threats not posing the biggest of issues and even those are the strongest mons. I do understand if people want to ban them as quality of life things or simply think they're broken, but since I don't view them as broken I want to try and keep things around if possible, meaning for now no matter the test I will be voting do not ban on anything.
I do support a test, however, since the voice of the playerbase simply can't be ignored at this point, and (sadly) it's likely gonna have to be Calyrex-S to be on the chopping block. The amount it was ahead in the general poll just shows what the majority wants, and since it wasn't close I don't think turning to the experienced voters like was done in the very close Zacian-C vs Calyrex-S poll is the play. I'll continue to try and share my opinions regarding anything tested and hope I can persuade people, but for now I just wanted to drop my thoughts as actions will follow discussion and surveys as always.
There are literal essays in this thread alone on why I don't think Calyrex-S is problematic for the tier, but I'll still talk about it and try to justify the probably minority opinion that I think it's genuinely a good presence for the tier. When looking at caly, it's easy to just point out how it requires a check from a somewhat limited pool of mons or else it's going to just win games, which is true. What I don't agree with is the views that you're locked into 100% Snarl Sp.def Yveltal usage or nothing like I've seen the argument spun before. Just on checking Calyrex-S alone, there' s a lot of good ways to go about it, with even the sample teams as well as many that hit high / top ladder running scarf or offensive Yveltal with pivots and being flexible solid structures. With ULT starting, I've also realized and probably a lot of other people have as well, that ttar is really good. Checking stallbreaker Yveltal, Calyrex-S, Ho-Oh, Eternatus, and others while having Stealth Rock support is incredible, and I think it's also a fair and good response to caly that's really hard to break. The point with just mentioning that (and the fact that Zarude is broken) is just to show that there are options, and the way I see it is that if there are multiple, viable, and reliable options to take on a mon it's perfectly fine in the tier. Zacian-C is a good example of the exact opposite, with few, unviable shitmons like quag to beat it that just lost to multiple sets, pp stalling long term, or taking more than 2% chip. Yveltal and ttar can consistently check caly over a game, and with pivots I find it really hard to get caly to do much in most games aside from Trick a scarf and hope your opponent chokes.
As for why I think it's actually beneficial for the tier, is that it keeps the tier in check. I don't mean that things will spiral out of control being broken, but the metagame is in a stable position gameplay wise, with what I believe to be enough room in the builder still rn to have fun ideas. I have probably over 100 ss teams in my builder and I still feel like there's plenty of things to try out since I've hardly built with some cool lower ranking mons with definite niches like Skarmory yet, so I feel like there's still places to go with the meta. With Calyrex-S in particular, I think it also keeps things fast paced and is a really good glue I think holds the tier together. It's a good breaker, cleric, and anti offense mon with the scarf set, and without it around things will be so much slower overall, with mosa topping the speed tier charts as a C+ tier mon and then Zacian a long way below. Breakers like Zekrom can run Adamant freely, and the only thing that really threatens offense at that point will be Ditto. I still believe that keeping some form of "broken checks broken" in Ubers is necessary, and Calyrex-S is good for keeping things in check overall. I can't predict the future of the meta, but I can see things just being a lot slower overall if Calyrex-S is gone, and imo in game is a lot more important than building so just slowing things down and removing one of the top tier mons just because you need a check to it doesn't sit right with me.
I'll definitely elaborate on anything said here and not said here if needed, I firmly believe that Calyrex-S isn't broken and hasn't been since the dynamax ban, and works completely fine in the tier.
As I said above, I put a 3 on the survey for Zacian. Higher than Calyrex-S, but not by much, because I do believe it's just a better mon and more oppressive in the meta. There isn't a single mon that can take 2 of its CB hits always, turning things into a guessing game or stacking regen pivots + helmet in the builder. Babiri SD is also a way to just directly 1v1 dusk mane which is its best check, being a really good set also. The difference between this being broken and not for me is how it functions in game rather than on paper. Offensively revenging it feels easier with scarfers and Calyrex-S around, and it gets super easily worn down for the most part, whereas Calyrex-S can Trick boots onto itself. With Zacian also being heavily prediction reliant and extremely momentum sinking if anything goes wrong, I think that's what holds it back a bit. The way Tony put it is something I don't agree with but understand:
Agree with the Calyrex-S part clearly, but the way I see it is that something has to be clearly broken in order to be banworthy, rather than just offering little to the tier. If Zacian truly made the better player not always win and mu's come down to 50/50's all the time I would, but in play I've never found that to be true. The better player who plays their mons right wins, and I don't think Zacian takes away from that. This does get into a bit more tiering philosophy which I'll talk a bit about, since it's important to decide what to do with the tier here, since looking at it there's realistically 2 tiering decisions to be made before the next main series games; Calyrex-S and Zacian.
In terms of what I want for the tier, I want a stable tier gameplay wise without having to ban all the top tier threats. I do think we've essentially achieved this, and further banning is just for convenience as people don't like having restrictions placed in the builder, but the fact is mons will always be a game based around match ups and trying to have consistent teams against these threats. I think since you can consistently check them like I mentioned, they're fine for the meta and a ban, while it might give more freedom to the player, is unnecessary. I don't want to ban unless the meta is in a truly bad spot gameplay wise, and I've seen through many ULT, SSNL, and other tour games as well as my own games that things just feel stable, with the top threats not posing the biggest of issues and even those are the strongest mons. I do understand if people want to ban them as quality of life things or simply think they're broken, but since I don't view them as broken I want to try and keep things around if possible, meaning for now no matter the test I will be voting do not ban on anything.
I do support a test, however, since the voice of the playerbase simply can't be ignored at this point, and (sadly) it's likely gonna have to be Calyrex-S to be on the chopping block. The amount it was ahead in the general poll just shows what the majority wants, and since it wasn't close I don't think turning to the experienced voters like was done in the very close Zacian-C vs Calyrex-S poll is the play. I'll continue to try and share my opinions regarding anything tested and hope I can persuade people, but for now I just wanted to drop my thoughts as actions will follow discussion and surveys as always.
Can we stop having suspect tests and community surveys? Dynamax and Shadow Tag have been banned and so has Zacian-C but the playerbase is somehow still bitching. I don't see how the playerbase will ever be satisfied, all this is doing is killing the Ubers identity and it's getting worse day by day.
I agree that Calyrex-Shadow forces you to run Yveltal (or Ttar). But even after Yveltal gets tricked, Caly-S doesn't even auto win vs Yveltal. Something worth considering is how popular knock off is in this tier so it's super easy to remove tricked choice specs/scarf, it's not even a pressing issue! There's also the fact Calyrex-Shadow can get revenge killed by Scarf or priority. Sure it pressures the player in teambuilder to always use Yveltal but realistically if Calyrex-Shadow got banned, everyone is going to be using it still lol.
Zacian-H is another issue and something worth pursuing because of how you have to guess what item it is. Band is really annoying if you don't have something like Dusk-Mane + Tangrowth. It's other sets are great as well. My problem with Zacian-H is it's only good because Zacian-C is banned and Zacian-C ban wasn't worth it imo since you at least had quagsire.
By the way, anyone else remember the [redacted] takes many people had during Zacian-C Suspect test on how you won't be forced to use Dusk-Mane if Zacian-C got banned? They were also like "I can finally use spd Dusk-Mane." (LOL) I don't know how on Earth they didn't think people will just use Zacian-H instead. I'm glad I wasn't one of those people.
TLDR: Everyone please stop bitching because it's a bad [lol] mindset. If you want a suspect test, choose Zacian-H. Also if you are one of those few people who think both should be banned...then you are [redacted]
If there is a suspect test, I won't be participating because the tiering contributor badge looks bad [lol]
Edit: I've toned down the toxicity.
I agree that Calyrex-Shadow forces you to run Yveltal (or Ttar). But even after Yveltal gets tricked, Caly-S doesn't even auto win vs Yveltal. Something worth considering is how popular knock off is in this tier so it's super easy to remove tricked choice specs/scarf, it's not even a pressing issue! There's also the fact Calyrex-Shadow can get revenge killed by Scarf or priority. Sure it pressures the player in teambuilder to always use Yveltal but realistically if Calyrex-Shadow got banned, everyone is going to be using it still lol.
Zacian-H is another issue and something worth pursuing because of how you have to guess what item it is. Band is really annoying if you don't have something like Dusk-Mane + Tangrowth. It's other sets are great as well. My problem with Zacian-H is it's only good because Zacian-C is banned and Zacian-C ban wasn't worth it imo since you at least had quagsire.
By the way, anyone else remember the [redacted] takes many people had during Zacian-C Suspect test on how you won't be forced to use Dusk-Mane if Zacian-C got banned? They were also like "I can finally use spd Dusk-Mane." (LOL) I don't know how on Earth they didn't think people will just use Zacian-H instead. I'm glad I wasn't one of those people.
TLDR: Everyone please stop bitching because it's a bad [lol] mindset. If you want a suspect test, choose Zacian-H. Also if you are one of those few people who think both should be banned...then you are [redacted]
If there is a suspect test, I won't be participating because the tiering contributor badge looks bad [lol]
Edit: I've toned down the toxicity.
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Ehhh to be fair Tangrowth does handle Zacian-H with relative ease. Banded sets get chipped alongside NDM since realistically its only the fairy resist you need (plus NDM can fend off xern if its spdef since ingrain ruins your day if you’re lunala/ho-oh) I’ve even ran into moments where i straight up live a +3 Play Rough and sleep it, letting me go Dusk Mane to Sunsteel it. Works like a charm, i tell ya.
In fact, I even recall using Tangrowth + Ferrothorn of all things and it still worked out. Albeit, it was mostly to spam Specs Dawn Wings Necrozma, also known as Caly-S that beats half of Caly-S’s answers.
Anyway, regarding the mons in question; I actually don’t struggle with them as much as I do, really. Realistically Caly-S is tricking a Yveltal each game and then hoping they have a rocker that actually beats the damn thing. Really, actually beating Yveltal half the time comes down to doubling multiple times with a Zacian-H and hoping the Scarf you tricked it doesnt come back to bite you in the ass. Sure they annoy offense, but damn is it not all that hard to get around. Speaking of Yveltal in fact, some people say that if Caly-S kicks the bucket, Yveltal is gonna be free to use its deadly offensive sets, and thats bad for the Ubers meta, and to that I say: huh? We still have a truckload of pokemon that can flick away Yveltal with ease. Eternatus, Xerneas, Tyranitar, really I don’t find it all that difficult to fend it off in this meta even WITH zacian-h. In fact the only thing that rubs me the wrong way is how boring things have gotten, lately. Maybe it’s just me, but the meta is pretty stale. Now sure, its maybe just the centralization that Ubers has, but things havent really been as diverse as i’ve hoped. Sure there’s a landorus-I or two, other than that though its pretty samey.
Those are my takes anyway; off to play Pokemon Sword now, cheers!
Well, now that the surveys are out, lemme make this post talking bout the pros and cons of picking whichever first, aswell as trends you can potentially see happen, cause and effect etc etc. This is probably going to be long as hell soo lets get it.
Lets start with the dog firstnot because finding a good ss caly-g sprite is harder or anything. First of all, this pokemon being disgusting is generally undisputed. However, i still wanna talk about the winners and losers of the ban of this pokemon, since this pokemon is extremely constricting. echoing what Basedwhat said, picking wrong against Zacian is quite literally fatal, and a Zacian with good play literally 6-0s every team under no exceptions. There is not a single pokemon in the game that can live 2 hits on a correct call and force it out, let alone living 1. The fact that alot teams use Ho-oh, Tangrowth AND Dusk mane for this pokemon nearly primarily is one of the most disgusting things i've witnessed in any metagame. It's no question i want it to go but if i want it to go first i dont know. Regardless let me post some of the winners the suspect would have for this stupid mutt.
THE WINNERS
I heard ya'll liked dragon types? Most all of these dragons appreciate the fact that Zacian isnt constantly threatening them out upon most occasions. While i know it's basic common sense that a fairy leaving will help the dragons, the two i left out from this list which i'll get to after, deserves their own paragraph personally, (spoilers, it's not reshiram lul) Giratina in particular shines from this as it's lard ass will always be forced out by Zacian without exceptions, as even a burned play rough is going to do a heavy chunk to it, banded or not. Zygarde also standsout as even with a coil boost it can't usually afford to stay in on it regardless, boosting the viability of thewar criminal set, so it's a winner. Palkia and kyurem-white usually don't run scarf so they don't ever have the ability to stay in on it. Eternatus is here as while it isn't weak to fairy Zacian genuinely doesn't care and neutralities are nowhere NEAR enough for it.
These two dragons benefit a little more indirectly, as they both appreciate the fact that when Zacian leaves Necrozma won't be atleast as forced on every damn team as before, especially not with a phys def set, Dialga benefits as it still has the ability to damn nuke offensive sets, which i think will become more popular, and also can be used more as a teams 2nd steel with teams not needing 3 zacian checks on their bloody balance team. Also specs draco is always a treat. Kyurem-black definitely benefits harder as not only is a natural enemy gone, Necrozma not running phys def means its way more effective at sweeping than it was before, and may be actually good again! Overall i found they deserved their own paragraph since they benefit from it's departure in more than just 1 way, and while zekrom has the same necrozma's a terrible zekrom check and you'll never change my mind on that.
Call me crazy but i think this thing would be the biggest winner from Zacian's departure. The sole fact that it isn't going to be commonly used as a terrible check for a broken mon it rarely beats anyway is a HUGE win for a mon as good as it is. Sp def, DD, SD, sub, this mon can start going into far more roles than being slapped on a team in the same core every single time a guy tries to build a good balance just to lose to xerneas. DD sets are nasty, and can run a similar set as before if it wants but with sp def evs instead for the stupid deer and our new Alien: Isolation crossover that we got this gen! While it will drop in usage most certainly is a downside, it being able to do other things more often that it's better at is just great for it.
Obviously we got most of the rest of the VR which benefits from it leaving in some fashion like Groudon, Buzzwole, Urshifu, Dracovish, Ttar, Zarude, i can go on. But most of them are just "FAIRY GONE LETS GOOOOO" or a faster threat is gone that it appreciates, so they don't deserve their paragraph but you get the picture. NOW for the losers, cuz surprisingly there are some!
THE LOSERS
These two metal birds greatest reason for use is as a good play rough switchin and with that taken away they really don't beat much besides offensive necrozma which is cool and all but switching into play rough is one of the things they are unparalelled at, so that going away is a blow. HOWEVER offensive Necrozma may be used heavily enough to the point where they may see use to mess with it, but for now i'm gonna say ya snooze ya lose. Go annoy OU cuz ya'll definitely do that too.
The Regen grasses also suffer, since alot of people use them alot because of how they atleast staved off Zacian, and while Tangrowth still has Groudon and Zekrom to parlay with, Amoongus doesn't really have that and i could see it going to UR potentially with its removal. (It's good at xerneas though, and spore is always nice.) But they can also lose if Zacian runs SD and/or psychic fangs, because remember folks, Zacian has no switchins.
I'm already out of losers wtf i hate this mon LMFAO. Anyway jokes aside, for my final verdict lemme list the things i can actually reasonably argue this mon brings to the tier without lying out my teeth because trust me it's hard, or any arguments that it should stay.
1) It beats down Zygarde. (I can't believe thats my best answer i can give man)
2) Another Fairy is cool. (I'm out of answers MAN)
Suffice to say, i think this mon is its own pandemic all it's own, whoever designed this pokemon on gamefreak's side actually deserves to be fired, it's way too broken, it doesn't look good atall, and it has no counters in the entire pokedex. Seriously though, this pokemon constricts the tier so so heavily it's truly unlike any pokemon i've ever seen before, and it's a pokemon that would've been quickbanned from ANY other tier at ANY other point simply off the effect it has on the builder. While i wanna see the metagame without it first almost certainly the boosts that caly-GG leaving kinda make me smile harder out of pure bias and nothing more, but thats a topic for another day.
ANYWAYS onto the horse, with celebi's bastard child riding it.
Personally not my pick for the first suspect, but i can agree that it's silly. Forcing a dark on alot of teams blows and the fact that it can muscle past the best one in the context of the rest of the meta definitely deserves some raised eyebrows, and i can't argue that. However i can say it definitely causes less restriction that Zacian does, and for that alone i feel Zacian should go first. HOWEVER that doesn't matter rn, since we got winners and losers to discuss!
THE WINNERS
Whoa, speed boosting sweepers benefit from the fastest relevant scarfer the franchise has ever seen is so WILD, who coulda predicted this1?!?! Jokes aside once again, Scarf Calyrex-Shadow often forced these pokemon out on unrevealed damage Calyrex simply because alot of the time it can just revenge kill all of them from like 80% aside from xerneas, and as for xerneas you gotta chip it for psyshock range but usually ppl drop their dusk manes for that, so it's not uncommon for that to common (Assuming ho-oh can't faze it) But generally these pokemon benefit hard from Calyrex-Shadow's removal so they definitely deserve their mention.
Sp def yveltal BLOWS in any other circumstance aside from Caly-GG, so seeing it go would open up all its offensive choices, which would bebroken as hell BLESSED, since who hates yveltal this mon is RAW, gen 6 really never missed on these boxarts. Correct opinions aside, this thing not needed to run trash ass sp def would be SO SO good for it, since it'll get to actually do whats its best at, like Necrozma, so it's a winner for the same reason.
DLC1 Flashbacks. This mon is best to reproduce the role Calyrex-shadow had as a ghost attacker, while still holding the defensive set above it. It has other tools to cripple Yveltal aswell such as Meteor beam, and could run scarf itself to do a similar role of revenge killing. It's plentitude of sets i think will find it rise to A rank at absolute minimum, this pokemon is really good and really only suffers from just better competition for most its sets.
The dogshit to ever so slightly rosier dogshit club for the fact that between Lunala and Caly-g you have NO reason to use them other than to flex. It'll probably still be the case after the ban but ay maybe i'll be wrong but these mons will likely stay ass, just less ass. but they do deserve i mention i guess.
Finally, the biggest winner i think the ban would have is Mewtwo. With both Calyrex and sp def yveltal fading away like they got vanquished by aggressive praying NPCS in Bravely default, this pokemon i truly think will rise to A rank. It holds so much variety, item and move choices that hasn't really gotten to be explored, but sets like Recover 3 attacks boots, NP 3 attacks life orb, taunt 3 attacks, 4 attacks specs trick, scarf trick, and alot of other options it has availlable to it, I'm confident it will rise to be one of the best metagame picks post ban, with its movepool granting options to pick and choose what it loses to, both team archetypes and pokemon.
THE LOSERS
The "I "beat" Calyrex and i'm not yveltal" club gonna be lucky to be ranked not named TTar. P2 was already terrible dont @ me and Zarude will lose one of it's best traits, condencing a zygarde and Caly check in 1. While it'll still beat Zygarde it won't be anywhere near as good as it was prior. Ttar atleast still has lunala and sand to be used on but tbh sand might just use hippo instead for zekrom.
The CEO's of the Sucker n Sneak club will miss being able to click their button and just kill Caly-BG, and thats a good part of their use. While not horribly hurt, they still appreciate their presence. Preying on lunala isnt as easy sadly, shoutout shadow shield. Grimmsnarl losing its niche as the screener who switches into caly sucks too since thats one of its greatest draws.
What does this thing bring to the table others cant? Well theres easily the BIGGEST thing in my eyes that the tier benefits from more than anything and almost makes me want it to stay is CLERIC SUPPORT. By far the biggest thing that caly-g brings to the ubers tier is offensive cleric support thats fairly reliable to get off on choice sets from how much they force switches. It grants offense a way to clear status without using xerneas to do it which is so huge and something i've wanted for ubers for a long time. It also bringing zekrom and groudon revenge killing fairly easily with scarf is also a plus it brings to the table. Regardless though this post is WAY WAY WAY too long even for me, so let me get to my point.
Personally as much as i love Cleric support, i think suspecting either is fine, aslong as both are done. If Caly-G is done first, i think Zacian should be done in like a month after it, considering revenging with Caly is half the reason it isn't quite literally quickban worthy in my eyes. Regardless, do i expect my wish of Zacian going first? No, sadly not. However unlike Shadow tag, i won't be as up n arms over differing opinions because unlike shadow tag i don't fear the next suspect getting a no ban verdict LMAO. Either way, personally Zacian > Caly-G first but at the end of the day as long as both are done eventually i don't care.
Lets start with the dog first
THE WINNERS
I heard ya'll liked dragon types? Most all of these dragons appreciate the fact that Zacian isnt constantly threatening them out upon most occasions. While i know it's basic common sense that a fairy leaving will help the dragons, the two i left out from this list which i'll get to after, deserves their own paragraph personally, (spoilers, it's not reshiram lul) Giratina in particular shines from this as it's lard ass will always be forced out by Zacian without exceptions, as even a burned play rough is going to do a heavy chunk to it, banded or not. Zygarde also standsout as even with a coil boost it can't usually afford to stay in on it regardless, boosting the viability of the
These two dragons benefit a little more indirectly, as they both appreciate the fact that when Zacian leaves Necrozma won't be atleast as forced on every damn team as before, especially not with a phys def set, Dialga benefits as it still has the ability to damn nuke offensive sets, which i think will become more popular, and also can be used more as a teams 2nd steel with teams not needing 3 zacian checks on their bloody balance team. Also specs draco is always a treat. Kyurem-black definitely benefits harder as not only is a natural enemy gone, Necrozma not running phys def means its way more effective at sweeping than it was before, and may be actually good again! Overall i found they deserved their own paragraph since they benefit from it's departure in more than just 1 way, and while zekrom has the same necrozma's a terrible zekrom check and you'll never change my mind on that.
Call me crazy but i think this thing would be the biggest winner from Zacian's departure. The sole fact that it isn't going to be commonly used as a terrible check for a broken mon it rarely beats anyway is a HUGE win for a mon as good as it is. Sp def, DD, SD, sub, this mon can start going into far more roles than being slapped on a team in the same core every single time a guy tries to build a good balance just to lose to xerneas. DD sets are nasty, and can run a similar set as before if it wants but with sp def evs instead for the stupid deer and our new Alien: Isolation crossover that we got this gen! While it will drop in usage most certainly is a downside, it being able to do other things more often that it's better at is just great for it.
Obviously we got most of the rest of the VR which benefits from it leaving in some fashion like Groudon, Buzzwole, Urshifu, Dracovish, Ttar, Zarude, i can go on. But most of them are just "FAIRY GONE LETS GOOOOO" or a faster threat is gone that it appreciates, so they don't deserve their paragraph but you get the picture. NOW for the losers, cuz surprisingly there are some!
THE LOSERS
These two metal birds greatest reason for use is as a good play rough switchin and with that taken away they really don't beat much besides offensive necrozma which is cool and all but switching into play rough is one of the things they are unparalelled at, so that going away is a blow. HOWEVER offensive Necrozma may be used heavily enough to the point where they may see use to mess with it, but for now i'm gonna say ya snooze ya lose. Go annoy OU cuz ya'll definitely do that too.
The Regen grasses also suffer, since alot of people use them alot because of how they atleast staved off Zacian, and while Tangrowth still has Groudon and Zekrom to parlay with, Amoongus doesn't really have that and i could see it going to UR potentially with its removal. (It's good at xerneas though, and spore is always nice.) But they can also lose if Zacian runs SD and/or psychic fangs, because remember folks, Zacian has no switchins.
1) It beats down Zygarde. (I can't believe thats my best answer i can give man)
2) Another Fairy is cool. (I'm out of answers MAN)
Suffice to say, i think this mon is its own pandemic all it's own, whoever designed this pokemon on gamefreak's side actually deserves to be fired, it's way too broken, it doesn't look good atall, and it has no counters in the entire pokedex. Seriously though, this pokemon constricts the tier so so heavily it's truly unlike any pokemon i've ever seen before, and it's a pokemon that would've been quickbanned from ANY other tier at ANY other point simply off the effect it has on the builder. While i wanna see the metagame without it first almost certainly the boosts that caly-GG leaving kinda make me smile harder out of pure bias and nothing more, but thats a topic for another day.
ANYWAYS onto the horse, with celebi's bastard child riding it.
Personally not my pick for the first suspect, but i can agree that it's silly. Forcing a dark on alot of teams blows and the fact that it can muscle past the best one in the context of the rest of the meta definitely deserves some raised eyebrows, and i can't argue that. However i can say it definitely causes less restriction that Zacian does, and for that alone i feel Zacian should go first. HOWEVER that doesn't matter rn, since we got winners and losers to discuss!
THE WINNERS
Whoa, speed boosting sweepers benefit from the fastest relevant scarfer the franchise has ever seen is so WILD, who coulda predicted this1?!?! Jokes aside once again, Scarf Calyrex-Shadow often forced these pokemon out on unrevealed damage Calyrex simply because alot of the time it can just revenge kill all of them from like 80% aside from xerneas, and as for xerneas you gotta chip it for psyshock range but usually ppl drop their dusk manes for that, so it's not uncommon for that to common (Assuming ho-oh can't faze it) But generally these pokemon benefit hard from Calyrex-Shadow's removal so they definitely deserve their mention.
Sp def yveltal BLOWS in any other circumstance aside from Caly-GG, so seeing it go would open up all its offensive choices, which would be
DLC1 Flashbacks. This mon is best to reproduce the role Calyrex-shadow had as a ghost attacker, while still holding the defensive set above it. It has other tools to cripple Yveltal aswell such as Meteor beam, and could run scarf itself to do a similar role of revenge killing. It's plentitude of sets i think will find it rise to A rank at absolute minimum, this pokemon is really good and really only suffers from just better competition for most its sets.
The dogshit to ever so slightly rosier dogshit club for the fact that between Lunala and Caly-g you have NO reason to use them other than to flex. It'll probably still be the case after the ban but ay maybe i'll be wrong but these mons will likely stay ass, just less ass. but they do deserve i mention i guess.
Finally, the biggest winner i think the ban would have is Mewtwo. With both Calyrex and sp def yveltal fading away like they got vanquished by aggressive praying NPCS in Bravely default, this pokemon i truly think will rise to A rank. It holds so much variety, item and move choices that hasn't really gotten to be explored, but sets like Recover 3 attacks boots, NP 3 attacks life orb, taunt 3 attacks, 4 attacks specs trick, scarf trick, and alot of other options it has availlable to it, I'm confident it will rise to be one of the best metagame picks post ban, with its movepool granting options to pick and choose what it loses to, both team archetypes and pokemon.
THE LOSERS
The "I "beat" Calyrex and i'm not yveltal" club gonna be lucky to be ranked not named TTar. P2 was already terrible dont @ me and Zarude will lose one of it's best traits, condencing a zygarde and Caly check in 1. While it'll still beat Zygarde it won't be anywhere near as good as it was prior. Ttar atleast still has lunala and sand to be used on but tbh sand might just use hippo instead for zekrom.
The CEO's of the Sucker n Sneak club will miss being able to click their button and just kill Caly-BG, and thats a good part of their use. While not horribly hurt, they still appreciate their presence. Preying on lunala isnt as easy sadly, shoutout shadow shield. Grimmsnarl losing its niche as the screener who switches into caly sucks too since thats one of its greatest draws.
What does this thing bring to the table others cant? Well theres easily the BIGGEST thing in my eyes that the tier benefits from more than anything and almost makes me want it to stay is CLERIC SUPPORT. By far the biggest thing that caly-g brings to the ubers tier is offensive cleric support thats fairly reliable to get off on choice sets from how much they force switches. It grants offense a way to clear status without using xerneas to do it which is so huge and something i've wanted for ubers for a long time. It also bringing zekrom and groudon revenge killing fairly easily with scarf is also a plus it brings to the table. Regardless though this post is WAY WAY WAY too long even for me, so let me get to my point.
Personally as much as i love Cleric support, i think suspecting either is fine, aslong as both are done. If Caly-G is done first, i think Zacian should be done in like a month after it, considering revenging with Caly is half the reason it isn't quite literally quickban worthy in my eyes. Regardless, do i expect my wish of Zacian going first? No, sadly not. However unlike Shadow tag, i won't be as up n arms over differing opinions because unlike shadow tag i don't fear the next suspect getting a no ban verdict LMAO. Either way, personally Zacian > Caly-G first but at the end of the day as long as both are done eventually i don't care.
I really thought about this for awhile, and I wanna give my reason for why I think Zacian should be suspected first.
I think both mons are really problematic, but as others have stated in this thread many times, Calyrex does at least have some solid switch-ins; while Zacian simply just does not.
A good way to think about how degenerate each is for the tier is how they impact teambuilding. A saying I like is that "Calyrex needs 1 and a half checks", which practically is true. You have your mandatory Specially Defensive Yveltal and another contigency mon just in case things get out of hand, such as Ho-Oh, Marshadow, Blissey, even Eternatus can function for it in a pinch. A lot of these mons offer a lot outside of checking Calyrex, so it's really not too much of a loss on your part. Meanwhile, Zacian pretty much mandates 2 full checks to it, your mandatory Necrozma-DM as well as another contigency mon. The amount of these checks are a lot more limited, not to mention how Zacian can blast through all of it's checks, so this encourages you to try to run even more checks or half-checks than that, which will inevitably make your team too passive or too weak to another threat. Whereas Specially Defensive Yveltal itself can switch-into Calyrex pretty comfortably, Necrozma-DM will always be 2HKO'd by CB Close Combat/Crunch, or just get used for set-up bait for Babiri Berry SD sets. It's true that you can play the Trick and Stealth Rock passive damage card for Yveltal with Caly, but this requires a lot more team support by keeping up rocks, keeping Calyrex healthy, etc. It's a lot more to ask for than just "I happened to click the right move now ur mon dies lol".
I'll go a bit more in-depth about Zacian's effect on teambuilding, because a common complaint of the current meta is that things feel "samey", which is totally true. Zacian-Hero creates the most teambuilding pressure in the entire tier, and even then it's not reliably checked. Let's go through the options:
+ :
Really not the best because Zacian can just click Crunch and win, meaning you have to try to play the big brain move and switch some shit like Yveltal or Zygarde on their predicted Crunch. Lunala is forced to run boots and as such you will not be getting a lot of chip on it. SD Babiri Berry sets also just destroy this. You will probably be running even more semi-useful options for Zacian, like Scarf Foul Play Yveltal, or Bulky Groudon, etc, just to give you a chance at a bit more safety.
+ :
Better, but still has issues. You are forcing Zacian to decide between CC/Crunch and Wild Charge a lot of the time, but if Zacian happens to guess right and nails Ho-Oh, then it will die 63.5% of the time (and likely even more often considering how people like to speed creep). Ho-Oh is also forced to run boots which gives Zacian even more time to get his guesses right to blast through your defensive core. SD Babiri Berry just wins here.
+ :
This is the most consistent and punishing core for Zacian, because Tangrowth isn't weak to any of Zacian's moves, and with Regenerator it can afford to run Rocky Helmet, which together with Helmet NDM will really punish Zacian from getting it's reads wrong. Tangrowth also deals with SD Babiri Berry well enough, being able to tank the +3 hit and put Zacian to sleep. However, you have to remember than Tangrowth is a shitmon that you would never run in a normal Ubers tier, and as such it has big flaws, such as it's very low special defense. Additionally, Yveltal and one of Eternatus/Blissey are also mandatory to run on every non-HO team, so you have 4 mons chosen already (probably copy pasted out of any other balance team in your builder lol). You will be very, very likely to want to have your last 2 mons be some sort of offensive breakers. This is where the flaws of Tangrowth come in; a ton of the meta development lately has had to do with being able to blast through this thing, whether it's Draco Zekrom, Weather Ball Zekrom, Toxic Zygarde, Heat Crash/Overheat Groudon, or hell, even Zygarde with a special move, Tangrowth will likely be you main check to these threats which just opens your team up completely. Not to mention, Tangrowth gets severely limited by the very common Toxic Spikes. There's really no good options to deal with all of these things and still be great against Zacian.
There are a few other mons like Amoonguss that can do decently vs. Zacian, but they're not nearly as common and they have bigger flaws in other areas. Zacian basically forces one of these 3 defensive cores on every balance team, which leads us right back to the stale meta of "4 of the same defensive mons + 2 offensive mons" of the past SS Ubers that everyone hated. The only other real variety you will see are with straight up HO teams, which basically consistent of Webs (please god dont let them have scarf yveltal! time), Screens, and the rare regular HO, as well as those disgusting full-on stalls on this recent ladder.
I think a big part of what people miss of SS compared to other Ubers generations is simply being able to run, for example, a bulky offensive team. A lot of those gens really feel like you can deal with most of the major threats without dedicating 4 slots to basically the same 3 sets on NDM/Etern/Yveltal + another Zacian check just to be a viable team. You could get creative with the Pokemon you used, by actually having variety in the species, EVs, item choice, etc. Hell, people run mons like Dodrio in ADV and are actually successful with it! It's the little things like this that makes playing competitive mons interesting and worth playing. Instead, now we have the same 4 mons with a slightly different coverage move thrown on one of our sweepers for a bit of a surprise. I'm sorry, but slotting TR-43 Fling on Zekrom to destroy their Lunala defensive core just does not do it for me in terms of metagame variety.
I think Calyrex absolutely deserves to be suspected, and I think a lot of the teambuilding pressure argument applies, but as you can already see in this thread, most of the top players feels like Zacian is too overcentralizing and just downright not fun for the tier. I know it would be very frustrating for the majority of players who voted for Calyrex to get suspected, the same players who have been waiting since the DLC came out, but the guessing game Zacian forces on the meta is really just too ridiculous for a game that should be decided by skill. I promise you that Calyrex will have it's time to be looked at.
I think both mons are really problematic, but as others have stated in this thread many times, Calyrex does at least have some solid switch-ins; while Zacian simply just does not.
A good way to think about how degenerate each is for the tier is how they impact teambuilding. A saying I like is that "Calyrex needs 1 and a half checks", which practically is true. You have your mandatory Specially Defensive Yveltal and another contigency mon just in case things get out of hand, such as Ho-Oh, Marshadow, Blissey, even Eternatus can function for it in a pinch. A lot of these mons offer a lot outside of checking Calyrex, so it's really not too much of a loss on your part. Meanwhile, Zacian pretty much mandates 2 full checks to it, your mandatory Necrozma-DM as well as another contigency mon. The amount of these checks are a lot more limited, not to mention how Zacian can blast through all of it's checks, so this encourages you to try to run even more checks or half-checks than that, which will inevitably make your team too passive or too weak to another threat. Whereas Specially Defensive Yveltal itself can switch-into Calyrex pretty comfortably, Necrozma-DM will always be 2HKO'd by CB Close Combat/Crunch, or just get used for set-up bait for Babiri Berry SD sets. It's true that you can play the Trick and Stealth Rock passive damage card for Yveltal with Caly, but this requires a lot more team support by keeping up rocks, keeping Calyrex healthy, etc. It's a lot more to ask for than just "I happened to click the right move now ur mon dies lol".
I'll go a bit more in-depth about Zacian's effect on teambuilding, because a common complaint of the current meta is that things feel "samey", which is totally true. Zacian-Hero creates the most teambuilding pressure in the entire tier, and even then it's not reliably checked. Let's go through the options:
+ :Really not the best because Zacian can just click Crunch and win, meaning you have to try to play the big brain move and switch some shit like Yveltal or Zygarde on their predicted Crunch. Lunala is forced to run boots and as such you will not be getting a lot of chip on it. SD Babiri Berry sets also just destroy this. You will probably be running even more semi-useful options for Zacian, like Scarf Foul Play Yveltal, or Bulky Groudon, etc, just to give you a chance at a bit more safety.
+ :Better, but still has issues. You are forcing Zacian to decide between CC/Crunch and Wild Charge a lot of the time, but if Zacian happens to guess right and nails Ho-Oh, then it will die 63.5% of the time (and likely even more often considering how people like to speed creep). Ho-Oh is also forced to run boots which gives Zacian even more time to get his guesses right to blast through your defensive core. SD Babiri Berry just wins here.
+ :This is the most consistent and punishing core for Zacian, because Tangrowth isn't weak to any of Zacian's moves, and with Regenerator it can afford to run Rocky Helmet, which together with Helmet NDM will really punish Zacian from getting it's reads wrong. Tangrowth also deals with SD Babiri Berry well enough, being able to tank the +3 hit and put Zacian to sleep. However, you have to remember than Tangrowth is a shitmon that you would never run in a normal Ubers tier, and as such it has big flaws, such as it's very low special defense. Additionally, Yveltal and one of Eternatus/Blissey are also mandatory to run on every non-HO team, so you have 4 mons chosen already (probably copy pasted out of any other balance team in your builder lol). You will be very, very likely to want to have your last 2 mons be some sort of offensive breakers. This is where the flaws of Tangrowth come in; a ton of the meta development lately has had to do with being able to blast through this thing, whether it's Draco Zekrom, Weather Ball Zekrom, Toxic Zygarde, Heat Crash/Overheat Groudon, or hell, even Zygarde with a special move, Tangrowth will likely be you main check to these threats which just opens your team up completely. Not to mention, Tangrowth gets severely limited by the very common Toxic Spikes. There's really no good options to deal with all of these things and still be great against Zacian.
There are a few other mons like Amoonguss that can do decently vs. Zacian, but they're not nearly as common and they have bigger flaws in other areas. Zacian basically forces one of these 3 defensive cores on every balance team, which leads us right back to the stale meta of "4 of the same defensive mons + 2 offensive mons" of the past SS Ubers that everyone hated. The only other real variety you will see are with straight up HO teams, which basically consistent of Webs (please god dont let them have scarf yveltal! time), Screens, and the rare regular HO, as well as those disgusting full-on stalls on this recent ladder.
I think a big part of what people miss of SS compared to other Ubers generations is simply being able to run, for example, a bulky offensive team. A lot of those gens really feel like you can deal with most of the major threats without dedicating 4 slots to basically the same 3 sets on NDM/Etern/Yveltal + another Zacian check just to be a viable team. You could get creative with the Pokemon you used, by actually having variety in the species, EVs, item choice, etc. Hell, people run mons like Dodrio in ADV and are actually successful with it! It's the little things like this that makes playing competitive mons interesting and worth playing. Instead, now we have the same 4 mons with a slightly different coverage move thrown on one of our sweepers for a bit of a surprise. I'm sorry, but slotting TR-43 Fling on Zekrom to destroy their Lunala defensive core just does not do it for me in terms of metagame variety.
I think Calyrex absolutely deserves to be suspected, and I think a lot of the teambuilding pressure argument applies, but as you can already see in this thread, most of the top players feels like Zacian is too overcentralizing and just downright not fun for the tier. I know it would be very frustrating for the majority of players who voted for Calyrex to get suspected, the same players who have been waiting since the DLC came out, but the guessing game Zacian forces on the meta is really just too ridiculous for a game that should be decided by skill. I promise you that Calyrex will have it's time to be looked at.
While not as splashable as Zacian-C (which isn't locked into a single move), the only pokemon that does more damage than Zacian-H with its primary STAB is Choice Band Mega Rayquaza. Zacian-H has no true switch in except for few walls like Amoongus. It should be suspect tested ASAP.
I'm going to argue the opposite of the last few posts and explain why I believe Calyrex-S should be suspected immediately.
First, I'd like to address the results of the most recent survey and compare it to that of the Zacian-C vs Calyrex-S survey back in December. In both surveys, Calyrex-S obtained more votes in favor of a Suspect Test from the general community. Yet, due to the experienced players survey, which constituted a smaller portion of the Uber Community, Zacian-C was suspected first. It was undoubtedly the correct choice to do, as Zacian-C was extremely unhealthy for the metagame and absurdly oppressive to the builder. But jump forward a few months, and we are back to almost the same exact dilemma, only this time it's between Zacian-H and Calyrex-S. And while the community finds Calyrex-S to be a significantly more pressing issue and by extension, more suspect worthy, the experienced players once again find Zacian-H to be more problematic. They are both oppressive to the builder and quite unhealthy to the meta for very different reasons. At this time, I feel that it may be better to listen to the overall community opinion for the reasons I am about to list below.
Calyrex-S is an offensive threat that forces every team to run at least two checks to it. Obviously, the safest check thus far has been Yveltal, but people have been discovering ways to bypass this issue. SubSeed Calyrex-S variants are extremely potent, and can only be shut down by either using Snarl or a strong U-Turn from Yveltal into a faster offensive threat. However, many SubSeed Calyrex-S are invested to have their substitute not be broken by an uninvested Yveltal's U-Turn, so this strategy doesn't always work.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-555128
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-555989
Here we have two games above from the Winter Seasonal (SiTuM vs TrueNora and Lacus Ichinose vs Mega zygarde-100%) in which Calyrex-S beat Yveltal 1v1, because Yveltal without Snarl just loses this match up. I'm honestly not sure how U-Turn ever beats this set either, because of the HP and Defense investment most SubSeed variants of Calyrex-S run.
Additionally, Trick can completely cripple Yveltal, with Choice Specs being more detrimental to the overall utility of Specially Defensive Yveltal. This is yet another reason why many teams need to run two solid checks to Calyrex-S. Furthermore, Calyrex-S has also several unexplored sets that I suspect may pick up more traction as time progresses. One of these sets is Nasty Plot + Encore, which when piloted correctly, can situationally beat Yveltal and Tyranitar, as seen below.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ubers-1341262852-6b0r0c3nhjm0kmn1flio33r1koaxlghpw
In this game, Calyrex-S at +2 was able to defeat a Tyranitar around 80% HP in Sand with 3 Astral Barrages. Tyranitar cannot be run as the only Calyrex-S check on a team, nor is it a reliable one like some of the posts mentioned above.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ubers-1341098455
Here we have a game where once Calyrex-S was able to acquire a Nasty Plot boost and force Yveltal to Roost, it was able to utilize Encore and then quickly accumulate enough boosts to blow right past the opponent's team. (Thank you to Indercover for letting me post the two replays above).
And then there are more novel sets Calyrex-S can run, one of which I was going to disclose in this post, but chose not to because it wasn't revealed in the series between FatFighter2 and Lacus Ichinose. Calyrex-S is a significantly more versatile threat than Zacian-H. Whenever you encounter a Zacian-H, you know it will either be a SD set or Banded. It's a very linear mon that exerts tremendous pressure should you guess the wrong set. But thankfully, more often than not, its set can be reliably deduced from team composition. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for Calyrex-S. By virtue of its excellent base 150 speed tier, Calyrex-S can utilize several different items ranging from Choice Scarf and Choice Specs to Focus Sash, Leftovers, Life Orb, and Spell Tag. And as for move set choices, Calyrex-S can run Draining Kiss, Pollen Puff, Grass Knot or Leaf Storm for coverage - Calyrex-S can quite literally pick its checks. It can function as a Cleric, Breaker, Sweeper, and everything in between. It is just that damn versatile.
As for the effects it has on the builder, let me make this clear - both Zacian-H and Calyrex-S force you to run at least two checks to them each. You cannot get away with running a single Calyrex-S check, or you team will lose to it in the long term. I am a proponent for suspecting and banning Calyrex-S first, because the metagame will significantly improve as a direct consequence of its removal. Many base 90 speed mons like Zekrom and Kyogre have to run speed boosting natures as opposed to neutral natures like Adamant and Modest respectively, solely because of the base 150 speed tier of Calyrex-S. Banning it will allow the aforementioned threats to utilize natures that can help break or sweep more efficiently. Removing Calyrex-S from the tier means you do not have to run Specially Defensive Yveltal on every single team. I've seen the argument that Life Orb Yveltal will become too much for the tier should this happen. This isn't true since Specially Defensive Eternatus is a defensive staple on almost every single Balance team. Most of these Eternatus carry Mystical Fire, which completely neutralizes Offensive Yveltal. Also, many teams will be able to afford another check to Zacian-H. While this may make it seem like Zacian-H is absurdly broken, having to delegate half of a team to check one threat, realize that many of the Regenerator Pivots used to check Zacian-H, are also used to check other metagame defining threats like Groudon, Marshadow, and Zekrom. By suspecting and banning Calyrex-S first, the tier dramatically improves, as teams have more flexibility to run a different variety of mons, rather than the standard YEN core we see on practically every single team. Removing Calyrex-S from the tier also allows teams to run the highly potent Calyrex-I, which is an excellent staple on many Bulky Offense and Balance builds.
Now if we were to argue to converse, I thoroughly believe Zacian-H would not be banned at this point in time. The experienced players only constitute a small portion of the community, and I truly doubt Zacian-H would reach the 2/3 majority required to remove it from the tier. And logistically speaking from a builder's perspective, most teams will still end up running a Regenerator Pivot like Tangrowth or a bulky defensive glue mon like Lunala to protect their teams from Groudon and Zekrom. But this ultimately makes Calyrex-S become even more busted than it already is. And should teams try to run another Calyrex-S check, in the event of a Zacian-H ban, they ultimately make themselves weaker to Groudon, Marshadow, Xerneas, and Zekrom. I genuinely do believe both Calyrex-S and Zacian-H are significantly unhealthy for metagame development. I suspect that removing Calyrex-S first will make Zacian-H not seem as broken/oppressive as it is, but the opposite simply does not hold true. From personal experience, I've lost dozens of more games to Calyrex-S than to Zacian-H, despite running YEN + Ho-Oh on many of my builds.
tl;dr If one of them has to go first, it's been long overdue that Calyrex-S rides on AG rather than Ubers.
Edit: After Fc posted the final cumulative usage stats for the most recent Winter Seasonal, not only did Calyrex-S have a higher cumulative usage than Zacian-H (41.51% vs 31.34%), but when comparing cumulative usage multiplied by overall win rate (percentage), we see that Calyrex-S is still ahead of Zacian-H (~20.4% vs ~16%). These stats simply demonstrate that Calyrex-S is a more splashable threat than Zacian-H on many types of team structures. Indeed, its ability to secure such a high win rate is genuinely concerning and affirms most, if not all, of the points I discussed above.
Edit 2: This is directed towards the Ubers Purists. If the goal is to minimize the number of eventual suspects and bans, then none are needed at the moment, as the metagame is relatively stable. Manaphy summarized it best when he described SS Ubers as being reduced to "[a] stale meta of 4 of the same defensive mons + 2 offensive mons." But should something be suspected first, for all the reasons I mentioned above, Calyrex-S makes the most sense. Suspecting Zacian-H first does not make Calyrex-S any more manageable than it already is at the moment, meaning if the general community still pushes for a suspect test in the future, Calyrex-S would almost certainly be suspected right after. However, if Calyrex-S were to be suspected first, then from what I wrote above, a future Zacian-H suspect could entirely be avoided, though SS Ubers is still reduced to "[a] stale meta of 4 defensive mons + 2 offensive mons." You are potentially minimizing the number of suspects/bans going forward if Calyrex-S is suspected before Zacian-H.
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