The Side-effects of Religion

[Alchemator]

Just as a note before I start: Hi.
Second note: I don't want this to descend into a religious debate, we've had that many times before I'd assume.

---

I'd like to start a discussion topic on the social impact religion [or change thereof] has. It is a well-known that over the course of history thousands upon thousands of people have been persecuted over their religious beliefs - slaughtered, tortured and being subjected to other terrible treatments.

I'd like to open up a discussion on how this has developed in modern society.

Let me give a personal example, I'm an atheist. This girl I like recently told me that she's becoming a Christian. This was pretty unpredictable though, since she's seemed to be opposed to religion in general for as long as I can remember.

For some reason I felt slightly betrayed, that she wasn't "one of us" any more. She said that one of my other friends had the same reaction. Now don't get me wrong, I'm no Richard Dawkins, but that was how I felt.

So I'm asking: Do you see religious discrimination today, and if so how?

Thanks for your time.
~Alch

 

[Itchni]

Religion does not persecute. Religion is only a mask to someone else's greedy motives when a "crusade" or something of the like happens.

 

[Alan]

Just saying that the last sentence should have a question mark at the end. :x

I, unfortunately, see quite a bit of discrimination where I am from. Lots of people despise muslims of any shape, size and color. It could be because I live in the "Bible Belt" and its like super duper religious and whatnot around here and Baptists are annoying but idk. Its strange though, you would think in this modern day and age we wouldn't discriminate against people just because of what they believe. I mean, its not like everyone has to agree with them or believe what they do or anything, but it seems almost backwards to openly oppose them. My parents happen to be one of the former. They are like super anti-Muslim. They are like adamant that they are all out to get us, clearly they aren't. Maybe its something they were taught during the cold war. I try to tell them that just because 19 (20?) people attacked the WTC and Pentagon doesn't mean that every. single. is out try and subdue America.

As for myself, I'm fairly lax about religion. I don't really go to church, I guess there is a God or something up there. It doesn't feel feasible that stuff can just happen by random chance and work out like this, but at the same time with all the bad stuff that happens in the world, both in our own personal lives and abroad one can start to question it.


edit; i hope your happy i used my 1k post for this.

 

[-FUCK-]

Idk, I've never had someone go overboard yet on me being an athiest, nor have I ever felt angry that someone else wasn't. The descrimination usualy dawns from a very religious person talking about a touchy subject to them (like homophobia) in my experience.

 

[Alchemator]

I [we] go to a very Christian school so I'm exposed to it rather a lot. The inherent discrimination could be due to the Christians actually being in the minority and people being tired of being lectured on it?

I'm completely anti anti-religion but... ?_? [I should stop posting when I get confused huh]

 

[Dogfish44]

Religion wouldn't get nearly as harsh if they didn't tell me how to talk to God - I'm agnostic.

Anyway, a lot of anti divorce faiths would call my mother evil (She hasn't remarried since she divorced) and me stupid for having my parents divorce. This is when religion discriminates - and why a lot of people discriminate against religion. (I'm in the top 100 junior mathmeticians, including those a year above me. I also held best mathmetician years 7 and 8 for both years, and the same for years 10 and 11 (Year 9 I was bested by a Year 11 - and was second)

My family is split on the matter - My dads side of the family will discriminate against religion in general and although they believe in a guiding force, definitely would not go to church since they don't want 'ecturing by an old man in a white robe'(Direct quote from a car ride with my dad).

My mothers side of the family is religious, but does not discriminate against other faiths, but might act slightly more formal against those of another faith.

It isn't big things you see, but small irritating things in modern society.

 

[cantab]

I, unfortunately, see quite a bit of discrimination where I am from. Lots of people despise muslims of any shape, size and color. It could be because I live in the "Bible Belt" and its like super duper religious and whatnot around here and Baptists are annoying but idk. Its strange though, you would think in this modern day and age we wouldn't discriminate against people just because of what they believe. I mean, its not like everyone has to agree with them or believe what they do or anything, but it seems almost backwards to openly oppose them. My parents happen to be one of the former. They are like super anti-Muslim. They are like adamant that they are all out to get us, clearly they aren't.

I will admit, I find this scary. I probably shouldn't be surprised, but somehow I am. I guess it's because I live in an area that's overwhelmingly majority Muslim. Though we never discuss religion I presume the majority of my work colleagues are Muslim. My mum's boyfriend is Muslim. In such an environment, an idea like that your parents hold is clearly ridiculous.

Also, it's clear that in the US religion is having a negative impact on education. If children are not taught the single most important theory in biology, the US will have a generation that lacks expertise in science, and as such will fall behind the rest of the western world (and indeed behind nations like China and India).

The USSR did exactly the same thing in the first half of the 20th century - there it was Marxist ideology that meant Darwinian evolution was denied by the state. The consequence? Soviet agriculture lagged behind the west and people starved. And from a scientific point of view, Russia is still not very good on the biological sciences. But in the USSR, it was imposed from the top. In today's USA it has popular support. Americans who vote for their children to be badly taught are like the proverbial turkeys voting for Christmas. And one day America will wake up and realise that - but by then it will be too late.

 

[Eggbert]

Also, it's clear that in the US religion is having a negative impact on education. If children are not taught the single most important theory in biology, the US will have a generation that lacks expertise in science, and as such will fall behind the rest of the western world (and indeed behind nations like China and India).

It is good this is not true for the entire US (schools in my area don't skip evolution, areas I know of), but yes, this is one most aggravating things religion does here. So many times I hear people say evolution is a lie and deny it, because schools don't teach it. You might as well not teach biology.

There are numerous negative results of religion. People I know completely change the way they act and treat others because of religion. One incredibly religious person at school completely persecutes (throws food, curses at, ect) non Catholics whenever religions is brought up. Not smart to bring religion up with anybody you will be seeing everyday. You also have the stuff like killing, persecutions, ect.

Another thing that religions does is makes decisions for people, not letting them act the way they would. They do good "deeds" not because they want to, because they don't want to end up in "hell" This results in a society where people can't act by them selves, they need some belief to force them by the collar.

There are many, many more.

 

[Mastadi]

I will admit, I find this scary. I probably shouldn't be surprised, but somehow I am. I guess it's because I live in an area that's overwhelmingly majority Muslim. Though we never discuss religion I presume the majority of my work colleagues are Muslim. My mum's boyfriend is Muslim. In such an environment, an idea like that your parents hold is clearly ridiculous.

Also, it's clear that in the US religion is having a negative impact on education. If children are not taught the single most important theory in biology, the US will have a generation that lacks expertise in science, and as such will fall behind the rest of the western world (and indeed behind nations like China and India).

The USSR did exactly the same thing in the first half of the 20th century - there it was Marxist ideology that meant Darwinian evolution was denied by the state. The consequence? Soviet agriculture lagged behind the west and people starved. And from a scientific point of view, Russia is still not very good on the biological sciences. But in the USSR, it was imposed from the top. In today's USA it has popular support. Americans who vote for their children to be badly taught are like the proverbial turkeys voting for Christmas. And one day America will wake up and realise that - but by then it will be too late.

The thing is, religion shouldn't affect people's lives like that. I myself as an agnostic theist Christian might be a bit biased on this particular example, but it is the issue of the government and any other bodies governing youth education. Religion should not at all be involved in any sort of school subject other than those which directly relate to it, e.g. RE, Sociology or Philosophy.

I won't argue how being Christian does not mean you believe that evolution is a hoax. Even though it is just a theory, albeit with quite a lot of proof behind it, it still should be taught in science, as it is done in other subjects (e.g. Psychology involves many of Freud's theories which are very often complete bollocks, yet are still taught). Untill evolution is definitely proven as true or not, it should be taught just as theory while the teachers should educate the pupils on any scientific proof for or against it (in addition to standard stuff like what the theory is about, what are it's consequences etc.). Religious proof for or against evolution should be kept in RE and such, as it usually has very little scientific merit.

Schools aren't meant to force somebody's beliefs, they are merely meant to inform and teach about the most common scientific consenus on any subject matter. If somebody was to believe that, for example, plants do not use photosynthesis but rather they just gain heat and energy from the core of Earth, let him be, but in an exam situation, he still should provide the answer which is the scientific consensus on that subject. It is the same case with evolution, school shouldn't really give half a damn about what someone believes, they are there to teach people about what is generally thought to be true or most plausible, possibly informing them about any other theories in case of lack of proof or such. However, religion itself has very little proof and most of it is infalsifiable, which means it has little room in science.

 

[Acklow]

Also, it's clear that in the US religion is having a negative impact on education. If children are not taught the single most important theory in biology, the US will have a generation that lacks expertise in science, and as such will fall behind the rest of the western world (and indeed behind nations like China and India).

Just to give you some insight, there technically isn't such a thing as "US religion" (<- No doubt you mean Christianity though). But anyways, I think that (in my school evolution is taught), all religions and viewpoints covering the topic of the history of the modern homo sapiens should be taught. After all, if you want evolution to be taught in school, you are depriving those who are in the religious community (not just Christian, but Buddhist, Islam, etc.) to educate kids about their ideas on the origins of humanity. Would that solve the problem? Of course not! Those who are not "religious" or tend to put their trust in the Theory of Evolution would say that religion should be removed altogether in favor of science. Those in the Christian community would argue that the Islamic faith should not be taught because it contradicts the root of the Christian ideal: Christ died on the cross. And of course, the Jews would probably not care because they don't care who goes to hell or heaven. I am making assumptions here, but really, if you plan on making the U.S. balanced and equal for all people (which it currently isn't), then you might as well let everyone's opinion have a say in the schools. Most importantly of all, let the kids decide who they want to believe. One day, it may be Evolution that gets the most attention, another may be Buddhism, but as long as all religions/theory/ideas/whatever have a say in the origins of human life, that could solve the whole "religion/evolution shouldn't be taught in schools debate".

Anywho, to stay on topic: religion has discriminated, but now is being discriminated against, at least more so in the Christian area and the Islam area. Nowadays, you can't go anywhere (assumption here and of course there are parts of the world that probably are polar opposite to what I'm about to say) as a Christian and not here a response from an Atheist about how they hate what Christians do (i.e. always going around telling people how to worship (<- That is an assumption by many Atheists, my friends), whilst on the Christian spectrum, you can always find somebody in the church who says that Muslims deserve to go to hell. Seriously, who are we to judge people based on what they believe? If you plan on saying that Christians are fucked up, well, keep that to yourself, because respecting someone else's beliefs will only create a better relationship with that person. Same goes with any person who holds any sort of belief or opinion.

Now of course, I'm not trying to teach you guys, but that's what I feel. I just think that people have been crapping around too much about how "this religion is evil" or "I think that this religion is stupid because it forces me to do things", etc., etc.
Well that's the end of my rant...

 

[Sy123]

People must realise that Religion and Science work together. The earliest example of such was a long time ago, in the Ottoman Empire, and even more longer ago. The Muslims have developed technology to its greatest. Astronomy, Mathematics, Chemistry and Biology. They have put the first stepping stone into science, yet they beliew that there is one god. Now in the modern world people have taken this stepping stone, and have transformed it. To contradict everything that the Muslim religion teaches, but they keep the developments in science. That is betrayal.
The parralell, between your discussion problem, is above. Havent the modern world betrayed the past?

Religious discrimination happens a lot today. It is everywhere, and started from you see. The Europeans, when the europeans discovered new lands, they killed many people. Only because of their religion, race and colour. English to Australia, Aboriginal Massacre. Spanish to South America (I think) Massacre there too (I think it was the Aztecs or Incas, I dont have my History book here)

Religion affects everyone in every different way, whether for the good way or the bad way

 

[MrIndigo]

Just to give you some insight, there technically isn't such a thing as "US religion" (<- No doubt you mean Christianity though). But anyways, I think that (in my school evolution is taught), all religions and viewpoints covering the topic of the history of the modern homo sapiens should be taught. After all, if you want evolution to be taught in school, you are depriving those who are in the religious community (not just Christian, but Buddhist, Islam, etc.) to educate kids about their ideas on the origins of humanity.

I think he means "In the US, religion..." referring to all religions that are practiced in the US, not a standardised religion of the country.

Either way, there's nothing inherently wrong with teaching different viewpoints of the origin of civilisation and humanity (as distinct from homo sapiens, the biological class). It's just that you don't teach that in science. In science, evolution is fact. That's why it is taught there. In courses like Comparitive Study of Religions, or in some cases Ancient History, you have those kinds of discourses about religious influence on society and so forth.

The difficulty then is that there's quite a lot of room for the teachers to be biased towards their particular viewpoint (as is the case in a lot of humanities subjects like History, Political Science, etc.), which means the courses aren't taught properly and the students are not taught to make up their own minds.



@thread in general: I read an SMBC comic the other day that posed the question that worries me most about religion.

Man 1: I think that the world began when two space turtles went to war with a giant robot.
Man 2: That's stupid.
Man 1: It's my religion.
Man 2: And I respect it.

One of the side effects of inviolable religious tolerance is that it allows (or indeed teaches) people to hold any beliefs they want without justification. To use an absurd example, lets say I tortured a cat every day at 10pm until it died. I could say that it's part of my religion (I'm making a blood sacrifice to my Aztec god) and therefore you can't judge me on it. You have to respect my beliefs.

A more realistic example is that I could take a racist stance and try to get all of the nonwhite people out of my neighbourhood with threats and insults and making them feel generally uncomfortable, because I believed that God's chosen race are the whites and to allow any other races in your proximity is an affront to Him and tainting your own soul.

What this usually leads to is an establishment bias; the religious beliefs of the big political lobbies are accepted because their followers can vote out politicians who don't agree and then smaller religions are ignored, outlawed etc. without any real justification about why the former set of beliefs are somehow more worthy of protection than the latter. People laugh at Scientology's beliefs, but when you get right down to it, what makes beliefs about a magician who lived a little over 2000 years ago any more realistic?

Forcing religious beliefs to be subject to the same criticism and need for justification as historical perspective, economic predictions, political leanings, scientific understanding, etc. etc. would generate discourse (since people can't simply disregard your belief because it's not the same as theirs) which inherently leads to greater understanding and acceptance in the long run.

Ultimately, while I certainly don't agree with persecution of people because of their religion (or yours), I do not believe there is reason that ANY belief, religious, political, mathematical or otherwise should be immune from criticism, to be somehow inviolate just because you believe it. No belief without justification.

 

[JRank]

Baptists are annoying

Thanks.

 

[Magic Toaster]

I've found religion can install moral ideals that are unique to that faith, and this can lead to people pressing their beliefs on others. Many people are never truly questioned about their faith which leads to them ultimately, having no real good reason to believe what they believe other than, "It's my religion and you should respect it." Not all of course, but there's too many of them out there.

 

[vonFiedler]

In the past year, I've spent alot of time among baptists. And I mean ALOT of fucking time. The way I look at baptists now is that they are the Christian Pharisees. They care a great deal about tradition, tradition that is around 50 years and comes from America. They hate their enemies, and they think they have many. They consider themselves holier than other Christians. I can't say I hate them. I spent time with them because I was in love with one. And I'm still good friends with some baptists.

I had to play Devil's Advocate for atheists alot. And when I say that I mean, when they said something blatantly untrue about atheists or associate something with atheists that you don't atheist to believe in (evolution, something even the catholic church accepts) I'd argue against them because I'm a sucker for sticking up for the truth. I'm not a fan of Obama, but I've probably defended him more times than I've criticized him just because some of vocal opponents are so fucking stupid (Baptists say he's the antichrist). The same was true with Bush.

Three of my best friends are atheists, and that includes my sworn brother. And would you believe that IRL I can talk with them about my beliefs and even come across as convincing? My friend Alex thinks that every Christian he meets is persecuting his freedom to be an atheist, I'm the sole exception. I guess in real life loving your fellow man and defending your opponents gives you a little leeway. Not on the internet. I don't really think anything good can come of this thread, after seeing just a few of the religious threads so far. But while Baptists are the Christian Pharisees, I don't know many atheists who don't act like Baptists. Even Alex acts that way.

At the end of the day, I am Christian because once upon a time there was this cool dude who really would rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints, who would love his enemies and when struck on one cheek, would turn so that his other cheek could be struck. To quote Ronald D. Moore, "<he> left us, all of us, a powerful legacy. A way of thinking and acting that makes us <human>. If his words hold wisdom and his philosophy is honorable, what does it matter if he returns? What is important is that we follow his teachings. Perhaps the words are more important than the man."

Atheists say that they don't need a religion to have morals, Baptists say they are Christian, but they both hate and judge and see themselves as holier than others. I try not to. Maybe some day I'll succeed.

 

[popemobile]

Thanks.

well there are things like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L640vc_XBjk

so he's not far off

Regardless, everything that MrIndigo said are basically my feelings on the subject. Religion promotes beliefs without evidence or justification.

 

[vonFiedler]

Religion promotes beliefs without evidence or justification.

Beliefs don't have evidence or justification. Neither do hope or ideals, they both make assumptions that cannot be tested in an efficient manner. I believe the world would be a better place if every man did more good than wrong. I don't know that. I cannot make it true. But I start with one person, and that commitment requires a leap of faith in my belief. Logic does not always agree with productivity, I choose to be productive.

Before anyone says anything stupid, a hypothesis is not a belief. It is based on logic and tested empirically.

 

[popemobile]

Beliefs don't have evidence or justification. Neither do hope or ideals, they both make assumptions that cannot be tested in an efficient manner. I believe the world would be a better place if every man did more good than wrong. I don't know that. I cannot make it true. But I start with one person, and that commitment requires a leap of faith in my belief.

You're missing the point. Beliefs can and should be based off of evidence and observations that lead to justifications. You believe the world would be a better place if every man did more good than wrong because you observe that good actions tend to lead to good outcomes and the opposite with bad actions, thus justifying your belief. When you form a religious belief, there is nothing in reality that justifies that belief, and in fact many things that contradict it.

And I saw your pre-edit statement, and you were again missing the point with it. Your life may be no different whether you have religious beliefs or not, but your life can be influenced by those who do. Take the Texas education thread. People like that hold office and influence government policy based on beliefs that have no evidence or justification to be based on, and then you see the consequences of those beliefs. Why can't gay people get married in the US? Most likely because of religious beliefs influencing national policy. This is my problem with religious beliefs.

 

[Sy123]

You obviously dont know anything about any of the religions going under observation

 

[popemobile]

You obviously dont know anything about any of the religions going under observation

please enlighten me then

 

[vonFiedler]

You're missing the point. Beliefs can and should be based off of evidence and observations that lead to justifications. You believe the world would be a better place if every man did more good than wrong because you observe that good actions tend to lead to good outcomes and the opposite with bad actions, thus justifying your belief. When you form a religious belief, there is nothing in reality that justifies that belief, and in fact many things that contradict it.

And I saw your pre-edit statement, and you were again missing the point with it. Your life may be no different whether you have religious beliefs or not, but your life can be influenced by those who do. Take the Texas education thread. People like that hold office and influence government policy based on beliefs that have no evidence or justification to be based on, and then you see the consequences of those beliefs. Why can't gay people get married in the US? Most likely because of religious beliefs influencing national policy. This is my problem with religious beliefs.

My life IS very different because I, a man who was never easily influenced, have been influenced by the words of a man who has been dead for two millenia and even his existence is debated. Many Christians think the most important thing is spreading the word, but that's just a practical part of having an ideal. Just look at how liberal the Catholic Church is. Look at how the Baptists, the kind of Christians you are taking these examples from, don't consider most American Christians as 'true' Christians. You are only looking for the bad that is done in the name of religion, and that sounds like Ad Hominem to me.

 

[Magic Toaster]

It seems more like he's saying beliefs based off evidence is good.

 

[vonFiedler]

Sometimes in life you have to make leaps of faith. Take risks. Exploit opportunities. Let yourself become vulnerable to others. A chance of productivity versus the logical safety of mediocrity.

 

[J-man]

You're missing the point. Beliefs can and should be based off of evidence and observations that lead to justifications.

agreed.

You believe the world would be a better place if every man did more good than wrong because you observe that good actions tend to lead to good outcomes and the opposite with bad actions, thus justifying your belief.

sure... sure...

When you form a religious belief, there is nothing in reality that justifies that belief, and in fact many things that contradict it.

That is a false and erroneous statement made solely on opinion.

And I saw your pre-edit statement, and you were again missing the point with it. Your life may be no different whether you have religious beliefs or not, but your life can be influenced by those who do. Take the Texas education thread. People like that hold office and influence government policy based on beliefs that have no evidence or justification to be based on, and then you see the consequences of those beliefs. Why can't gay people get married in the US?

Neither here nor there, but you don't understand what "love" is and you miss the point of marriage. I will not respond to any posts about this because it is off topic. It's not solely religious if a state like California and Maine can pass laws against gay marriage.

Most likely because of religious beliefs influencing national policy. This is my problem with religious beliefs.

Your in-toleration of our in-toleration is ridiculous. One thing you don't understand is that your atheism and darwinism is a religion.

From Dictionary.com

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe

Which is Darwinism

esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies,

neither here nor there... I don't think, unless you can help me understand...

usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Atheist moral code is virtually do anything that makes you happy... Drugs, Extra Marital Sex, Homosexuality, Drugs, Lying, Stealing, Or maybe not doing these things... Divorce whenever you get in a fight with your spouse... Cuss... And complaining about religion... Ect...

 

[vonFiedler]

Don't you think it's a little fucking insulting to religion to call atheism a religion? Then you'd have to start accepting crazy celebrity cults. Still looking for the part of the bible that says no cursing.