The Legendary Birds and YOU

kanak0

In our hyper offensive meta-game RBY's Trio of birds has been seeing very little use. While most of it can be blamed on stealth rock, (Moltres and Articuno take 50% while Zapdos takes 25%) new powerful rock attacks (Stone Edge) is the bane of their existence. However, while rock is a common attacking type, there are many pokemon that can resist it and hit back hard. I think the legendary birds deserve the same treatment that Heatran has gotten. A protector.

When D/P first came out, Heatran was labeled as the worse D/P legendary because it had a 4x weakness to Ground, one of the most common attacking types. Because of this Heatran was ignored and forgotten until futuresuperstar got the idea for GrowthTran. The pair perfectly complements each other and because of it, Heatran use has shown an increase.

I believe the same thing could happen for the Legendary Birds, and here are some ideas that I have in mind.

First Articuno.
Weaknesses: 4x Rock, 2x Fire, 2x Electric, 2x Steel
Resistances: 2x Grass, 2x Bug
Immunities: Ground

90/85/100/95/125/85 (speed last)

Since very few pokemon attack with the Steel type, and the ones that do are obvious (Bronzong, Aggron ect...) that leaves only 3 common weaknesses Rock, Fire, and Electric. In general, most people don’t use fire type pokemon, except Infernape, and random Heatrans and Bellyzards, so most fire type attacks will not have the STAB boost behind them.

One idea for a protector is Donphan. With 90/120/60 defenses the obvious Stone Edge will do very little with his mono-ground typing which grants him a 2x resist to rock and steel, as well as an immunity to electric. He can also rapid spin away annoy stealth rocks and spikes while laying down his own.

A possible set could be
Donphan
@Leftovers
Impish
252 HP /6 Atk/252 Def
Earthquake
Ice Shard/Stone Edge
Rapid Spin
Stealth Rock
(set was taken from Phuquoph+'s Donphan Analyses)
Earthquake for STAB and dealing with infernapes, Ice Shard for Garchomp and other dragons. (However Stone Edge gives better type coverage) Rapid Spin to clear your opponents spikes and Stealth Rock to make your own.

Articuno
@Leftovers
Calm
252hp/96def/64spatk/96spdef
Ice Beam
Roost
Roar
Reflect
(Taken from Aeolus**'s Articuno Analyses)
Ice Beam for STAB, Roost for instant recovery, roar to cause some extra spike damage, and Reflect to further protect Donphan from the predicted physical hit.

The only fault with this pair is that Donphan is not resistant to Fire, and special fire type attacks will be a problem. Physical fire type attacks can be handled with Reflect paired with Donphan's excelent defenses. An additional spiker should be considered to maximize Articuno's potential, Skarmory comes to mind...

Second Moltres
Weaknesses: 4x Rock, 2x Water, 2x Electric
Resistances: 2x Fire, 4x Grass, 2x Fighting, 4x Bug, 2x Steel
Immunities: Ground

90/100/90/125/85/90

With Moltres we are given many interesting resistances to work with, so getting him in is a lot easier than Articuno. CB or CS Heracross using Close Combat or preferably Megahorn is a perfect switch in since Moltres can threaten a KO with Air Slash. Also anything with a CB Earthquake is a perfect switch in for any of the legendary birds.

A good partner for Moltres is Swampert or Quagsire (a poor mans Swampert). The reason why Quagsire gets a mention is while it resists rock and is immune to electric like Swampert, with Water Absorb, Quagsire is also immune to water type attacks. If you have another water resist use Swampert since his 100/90/90 defenses is far superior to Quagsire's 95/85/65. Neither get rapid spin so another pokemon will be needed to take care of stealth rock.

Moltres
@Leftovers
Timid
6 HP/252 Spd/ @252 SAtk
Flamethrower
Air Slash
Hidden Power Grass/Hidden Power Ice/Will-o-Wisp
Roost

Flamethrower and Air Slash for STAB, Hidden Power Grass for water types and Swampert and Hidden Power Ice for dragons. Since Getting a good Hidden power is a pain in game, Will-o-Wisp is a good substitute to mess things up as the switch in. Roost for recovery but watch out for Earthquake on the roosting turns.

Swampert/Quagsire
@Leftovers
Impish
240 Hp/56 Atk/212 Def
Earthquake
Avalanche
Waterfall
Stone Edge

(EV spread taken from Phuquoph+'s Swampert Analysis).

Earthquake and Waterfall for STAB, Avalance for Dragons that Moltres could not handle and Stone Edge for the Gyrados that may switch into Moltres.

Together, Moltres and Swampert (or Quagsire) make an excelent pair since Moltres covers Swamperts 4x grass weakness and Swampert covers Moltres's Rock and Electric weaknesses.

Set Provided by Allosteric

How about Poliwrath for a partner for Moltres? It gets Water Absorb, and its Fighting type hinders any Rock attacks thrown Moltres's way. It also has respectable base defensive stats (90 HP, 95 Defense, 90 Special Defense). Here's what I'm thinking:

Poliwrath
EVs: 252 HP, 170 Attack, 88 Special Defense
Nature: Jolly
Item: Salac Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
1. Hypnosis/Stone Edge
2. Bulk Up
3. Brick Break
4. Earthquake

I realize that they both share an Electric weakness, but before you start throwing full wine bottles at your monitor, check out these calculations.

Timid Magnezone's Thunderbolt against Poliwrath with 252 HP and 88 Sp. Defense EVs: 81.25% - 95.57%

Timid Jolteon's Thunderbolt against Poliwrath with 252 HP and 88 Sp. Defense EVs: 72.40% - 85.16%

Jolly Electivire's Expert Belt-boosted Thunderpunch against Poliwrath with 252 HP and zero Defense EVs: 77.86% - 91.67%

And these are all assuming you haven't used Bulk Up at all yet or don't correctly predict their switch-ins. These damage ranges comfortably allow Poliwrath to activate its Salac Berry and use Bulk Up on the same turn (or Hypnosis, then Bulk Up [or Hypnosis when they come in!]), then proceed to pwn 'em all (except Jolteon, unless you predict his switch-in correctly). You'll have dashingly countered their Electric-type, and as a plus, Blissey can't come in on this thing without being massively crippled. Of course, Claydol, Azelf, and Starmie totally still destroy you, but that's what they make Mirror Coat Gastrodon for, right?

Last but certainly not least, Zapdos.
Weaknesses: 2x Rock, 2x Ice
Resistances: 2x Fighting, 2x Flying, 2x Bug, 2x Steel, 2x Grass
Immunities: Ground

90/90/85/125/90/100

Like Moltres Zapdos is gifted with many key resistances so getting Zapdos in is not that hard. However unlike his Legendary brothers, Zapdos only takes 25% from Stealth Rock. This still means that Zapdos could use a rapid spinner, but it is not as vital compared to the other two. Zapdos also gets BatonPass from Pokemon XD which allows him to Agility pass with excellent success. When using baton pass a partner is not as vital, unless they are on the receiving end of the BatonPass.

Zapdos
@Leftovers
Timid
252 HP/ 192 Def/ 60 SAtk
BatonPass
Agility
Thunder Bolt
Substitute

Use Substitute as they switch to a counter and then Agility as your substitute breaks. Thunder Bolt if you get the chance and flee at the first sign of trouble.

Or...

Zapdos
@Leftovers
Bold
252 Hp, 220 Def, 36 Spd
Discharge
Roost
Hidden Power Ice/Roar/Extrasensory
Light Screen

Discharge because with Zapdos's Base 125 special attack it can take the drop in damage in exchange for paralysis. It also makes room from Light Screen. Roost removes Zapdos's rock weakness but gives it a ground weakness instead. Hidden Power Ice is for Dragons and ground types but if you cant get a good hidden power you can roar them out. Extrasensory is also a decent substitute.

A great partner for either Zapdos is...

Empoleon
@Leftovers
Timid/Modest
252 Spd, 180 SAtk, 72 Hp/ 252 SAtk, 252 HP, 6 Def
Surf
Ice Beam
Grass Knot
Stealth Rock

Timid if you are using it as a baton pass recepiant (not the best idea) and modest if you are not. Empoleon's numerous resists are very useful and he can go one on one against our current metagames biggest threat (SpecsMence) if you plan to do that you might consider some SDef EVs or a Calm nature.

Set provided by Luminouzz
Zapdos: (Switches in on Jirachi's single EQ weakness, Jirachi has no fire weakness in the rain).
Thunder (taking advantage of rain)
Metal Sound (Lowers sp. def of any counters in case they stay in on Jirachi)
Roost (Recovery)
HP Grass (Coverage)

Jirachi: (Fire weakness gets nullified in the Rain which is provided by my Suicune/Bronzong)
Wish (Team support, primarily to heal Zappy for accumulated SR damage)
Grass Knot
Shadow Ball
U-Turn (So it doesn't get trapped by a Magnezone).

This set is used in a Rain dance setting.
I am open to suggestions and I would love to hear what combos my fellow Smogon members can think of for the legendary birds.
 
A few facts to straighten out, first of all.

When D/P first came out, Heatran was labeled as the worse legendary because it had a 4x weakness to Ground, one of the most common attacking types. Because of this Heatran was ignored and forgotten until futuresuperstar got the idea for GrowthTran.
Click to expand...
Heatran was pretty well-liked and popular before that...McGraw's analysis was written well before this GrowthTran idea. I don't remember Heatran -ever- being labeled as the worst legendary on these boards, ever.


As far as Donphan being a "protector" for Articuno, Donphan is really not doing anything here to set Articuno up, or vice-versa...they're just taking random attacks for each other. I mean, that's fine, but that set can seriously be done by a million different grounds. I'd rather see something where they can set each other up.

I also don't see why you wouldn't want both Roost and Substitute on the BP set, instead of Roost and Agility. And why not pass to something that can actually make use of the Substitute? Seriously, what's Empoleon going to do with it?
 
I mention Skarmory because it can lay down spikes which makes roar on Articuno even more useful. A sleep talking Articuno could be used with Skarmory to hurt things with spikes and stealth rock damage. Donphan is still the "Partner" I just feel Skarmory would be a nice addition to that team.
 
Surgo said:
A few facts to straighten out, first of all.


Heatran was pretty well-liked and popular before that...McGraw's analysis was written well before this GrowthTran idea. I don't remember Heatran -ever- being labeled as the worst legendary on these boards, ever.


As far as Donphan being a "protector" for Articuno, Donphan is really not doing anything here to set Articuno up, or vice-versa...they're just taking random attacks for each other. I mean, that's fine, but that set can seriously be done by a million different grounds. I'd rather see something where they can set each other up.
Click to expand...
I stand corrected on the oppinon on Heatran then. I just feel that its a bit more common now. And I mention Donphan again because of the fact that it has the right resists and it can rapid spin. The most Articuno can do to set up is cause spike damage with roar and set up reflect. Many pokemon can benifet from reflect. Also if you have a better pokemon that can protect Articuno please share. Donphan is just the first thing that came to mind.

I also said that I dont advise passing speed to Empoleon. I think that Agility is a great thing to pass. It might warrent the use of a different set.
Substitute/Roost/ThunderBolt/Baton Pass and Agility/Roost/Thunder Bolt/Baton Pass. BP Zapdos's biggest problem is that it only has 4 move slots.

I will also admit that I am not an expert on Zapdos. I have used Articuno/Donphan/Skarmory and Moltres/Swampert/Donphan. I have used Zapdos but not with Empoleon.
 
The birds were nerfed pretty badly in D/P. Two of them for obvious reasons and the other for getting raped by Electivire.
 
I believe that I have repeatedly mentioned that Stealth Rock is a problem, but it is not enough to write them off so easily. Also, many pokemon are destroyed by Electvire. Elecvire also does not like Will-o-Wisp or roost. Moltres outspeeds it (right?) and Zapdos does to and it can BP out.

Edit: moltres does not outspeed electvire but it can still Will-o-wisp on the switch.
 
This is a pretty interesting discussion. I am personally using Zapdos on my Rain Dance team in conjunction with a Jirachi. Zapdos is weak to ice/rock - which Jirachi covers. Also, Jirachi has a nice resist to Stealth Rock and can Wish Pass/Psuedo Pass Light Screens/Reflect to Zappy. Zappy can then Metal Sound and switch out if your opponent switches to a counter (I'm running a Supporter/Special sweeper Jirachi set). Zapdos can also switch in on any EQ's directed at Jirachi. Here's the sets.

Zappy: (Switches in on Jirachi's single EQ weakness, Jirachi has no fire weakness in the rain).
Thunder (taking advantage of rain)
Metal Sound (Lowers sp. def of any counters in case they stay in on Jirachi)
Roost (Recovery)
HP Grass (Coverage)

Jirachi: (Fire weakness gets nullified in the Rain which is provided by my Suicune/Bronzong)
Wish (Team support, primarily to heal Zappy for accumulated SR damage)
Grass Knot
Shadow Ball
U-Turn (So it doesn't get trapped by a Magnezone).

Edit : I feel that any team running Articuno/Moltres MUST have a reliable rapid spinner..way too much SR around these days, and losing one poke to repeated SR switch-ins can cost you the game ( Wish-pass isn't really a good option with a 50% loss of HP to SR).
 
Luminouzz said:
This is a pretty interesting discussion. I am personally using Zapdos on my Rain Dance team in conjunction with a Jirachi. Zapdos is weak to ice/rock - which Jirachi covers. Also, Jirachi has a nice resist to Stealth Rock and can Wish Pass/Psuedo Pass Light Screens/Reflect to Zappy. Zappy can then Metal Sound and switch out if your opponent switches to a counter (I'm running a Supporter/Special sweeper Jirachi set). Zapdos can also switch in on any EQ's directed at Jirachi. Here's the sets.

Zappy: (Switches in on Jirachi's single EQ weakness, Jirachi has no fire weakness in the rain).
Thunder (taking advantage of rain)
Metal Sound (Lowers sp. def of any counters in case they stay in on Jirachi)
Roost (Recovery)
HP Grass (Coverage)

Jirachi: (Fire weakness gets nullified in the Rain which is provided by my Suicune/Bronzong)
Wish (Team support, primarily to heal Zappy for accumulated SR damage)
Grass Knot
Shadow Ball
U-Turn (So it doesn't get trapped by a Magnezone).

Edit : I feel that any team running Articuno/Moltres MUST have a reliable rapid spinner..way too much SR around these days, and losing one poke to repeated SR switch-ins can cost you the game ( Wish-pass isn't really a good option with a 50% loss of HP to SR).
Click to expand...

I really like your set. Do you mind if I edit it into the first post? I will give you credit of course. And I agree with you on the need of a rapid spinner. That is why I always mention Donphan since it can do so many things. It spins, spikes, phazes, and tanks.
 
kanak0 said:
I believe that I have repeatedly mentioned that Stealth Rock is a problem, but it is not enough to write them off so easily. Also, many pokemon are destroyed by Electvire. Elecvire also does not like Will-o-Wisp or roost. Moltres outspeeds it (right?) and Zapdos does to and it can BP out.

Edit: moltres does not outspeed electvire but it can still Will-o-wisp on the switch.
Click to expand...
You realize that Electivire will use a Zapdos Thunderbolt to get an easy switch in, then kill with Ice Punch? Also when is 'Vire switching into Moltres?
 
Lupo Aro said:
You realize that Electivire will use a Zapdos Thunderbolt to get an easy switch in, then kill with Ice Punch? Also when is 'Vire switching into Moltres?
Click to expand...

I kinda doubt that an Electivire Ice Punch will be killing Zapdos, but eh, I could be wrong.

D/P pretty much murdered Articuno, and Moltres is just another Pokemon that Blissey walls, and to make matters worse Stealth Rock will do 50% when he has to switch in. Zapdos is still the only one good enough to actually be used imo.
 
Kanako, I don't mind if you add my set in.

I realize Zapdos will draw out Electivire - that's the reason Bronzong is on my team. In the Rain, his fire weakness is nullified and Electivire can't hit him for SE with anything. He can take at least 3-4 hits from Vire and bring him down with EQ (I don't think Electivire will stay in on a Bronzong anyways). I definitely wouldn't recommend running the Zappy set with Thunder as your main damage dealing attack without a good Electivire counter. Also, I realize Donphan does many roles well as you listed (phazing, spinning, etc). Personally, I just haven't had many successes with Donphan because of his tendency to get killed by so many common attack types (Water, Grass, Ice).

Edit: Sorry, thought Lupo was talking about my set with Thunder.
 
Familiar Trainer said:
I kinda doubt that an Electivire Ice Punch will be killing Zapdos, but eh, I could be wrong.

D/P pretty much murdered Articuno, and Moltres is just another Pokemon that Blissey walls, and to make matters worse Stealth Rock will do 50% when he has to switch in. Zapdos is still the only one good enough to actually be used imo.
Click to expand...
Zapdos can roost off the damage of ice punch but it should not be staying in on Electvire anyway.
 
Familiar Trainer said:
D/P pretty much murdered Articuno, and Moltres is just another Pokemon that Blissey walls, and to make matters worse Stealth Rock will do 50% when he has to switch in. Zapdos is still the only one good enough to actually be used imo.
Click to expand...

Quoted for Truth.

Another big thing that hurts the legendary birds and cats are moveset issues.

Moltres -- Can Sunny Beam, Air Slash, and that's about it... Blissey walls this so extremely badly. 4x Rock weakness isn't a great thing to have either. Moltres bleeds flaming tears wanting to get Nasty Plot.

Articuno -- Ice Beam, Ice Shard, Tailwind, and Reflect is all I see that's even noteworthy. Articuno, being the slower more defensive bird, can't do jack squat with the blatant 4x Rock Weakness.

Zapdos -- The only of the Bird Trio that's not 4x weak to Rock and stills sees use today because of that, even if it is rare use. Zapdos needs a more powerful Flying-Type attack that's special. It needs Air Slash or a more powerful attack. It has very little movepool, again. Baton Pass is nice from the console game, but it's not the best Baton Passer in the world.

---VERDICT---

It would be extremely useful if the birds could all learn each of their brother's elements... This way, Zapdos and Articuno can effectively BoltBeam. Moltres badly needs Nasty Plot. Finally, all the birds need to learn Aura Sphere and NOT Focus Blast. No sane man uses Focus Blast anymore and for a good reason; Accuracy. Aura Sphere can SE hit any Rock Pokemon attempting to ruin their fun and all of them can use it against Blissey so they can hit SE and stop Blissey from completely walling with Softboiled repetition.

The birds also need vastly improved Support attack options.
​


_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

​

Entei -- Entei has always suffered greatly, but even more this generation than ever. Fire before never went of its good Attack base. But now, since the Physical/Special split, it's still forced to go off Special with bad results. Entei badly needs Flare Blitz or a strong (90 or more base + 100 acc) Fire Physical attack that has no recoil. It also needs to learn more common Physical attack options. (AKA: Earthquake, so it can QuakeSlide) He also needs a decent Attack increasing booster. Bulk Up or prefferably Swords Dance.

Suicune -- Suicune has always been a great defensive Pokemon, but with common attacks given higher power, it can't stand up as long to the constant onslaught of attacks without... RECOVER. Being a defensive Pokemon, it really needs access to those very useful utility moves. Hypnosis would be a good attack for it to have too. This Pokemon also suffers from being given Extrasensory for no reason... Sigh...

Raikou -- Usable, and a stronger but slightly slower Jolteon, but it can't Focus Sash as well as Jolteon because of beefed defenses. Calm Mind + Thunderbolt + Extrasensory + Hidden Power doesn't provide enough coverage. Being a Legendary Pokemon, shouldn't it have a vastly expansive Moveset? Also a problem is that it's INCREDIBLY hard to find a good Raikou with good IVs, right Nature, and a good Hidden Power.

---VERDICT---

The Legendary cat trio would be a lot better if they had better support options and if they could all use T-Bolt + Ice Beam + Flamethrower. Grass Knot would be nice too. Suicune as stated needs Recover and Hypnosis, Entei needs Flare Blitz, Earthquake, and Swords Dance/Bulk Up. Raikou needs better attack options like Ice Beam and Grass Knot movelist additions.

The Regis were foolishly designed as walls with all the very common weakness of Fighting. They are also outclassed by many other common walls, such as Cresselia and Blissey.

The new Psychic trio are great. Uxie was sadly outclassed by Cresselia, but Mesprit makes a good BoltBeamer and Azelf gets great mileage out of Explosion and Nasty Plot.
​
 
Striker, Raikou already gets excellent coverage from Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Grass or Ice. Also, Regice is an excellent special wall that can fight back without setup.
 
Even with good "partners", Articuno and Moltres can only switch in 3 times max once Staelth Rock is up (depending on if they have even or odd HP), and if they take a hit on the switch, it's really going to suck. Zapdos still isn't bad though. You would pretty much NEED a spinner to use them, which not all teams otherwise need/have room for.

Also, Heatran was labeled as a bad legendary on GameFAQ's IIRC (aka, home of the ASA)
 
Great Sage said:
Striker, Raikou already gets excellent coverage from Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Grass or Ice. Also, Regice is an excellent special wall that can fight back without setup.
Click to expand...

Well, if the other cats are going to get upgrades, Raikou should too. Even if its just novelty upgrades, like Flamethrower Raikou.
 
I have used a sleep talking Arti with a Skarm before and it does pretty well. Just gotta watch out for Stealth Rock as others say. SR does not mean the end of the world for Articuno since rest really can help it. Then with sleep talk it depends on luck for some situations. My best advice is to kill whatever can take out Skarm/Arti before you send them out. Or at least Save Arti for end game. I find that to be the most useful!
 
Moltres is the only one of the three that can take on Blissey. With stealth Rock, A choice Speced Fire Blast is a 2 Hit KO but I see where you are comming from. I would not be making this thread if I felt that they were great stand alone pokemon. I am just trying to make people understand that with the propper support, they can be deadly. There is no point in crying over the lack of a better move set. But as I have said again and again, with Rapid spin support, stealth rock is not such a big deal. Its the 4x rock weakness. That is what needs to be handled for Articuno and Moltres. They need to be paired with a pokemon that can take a strong rock type attack, and be a threat to whatever is on the field. I wonder if Garchomp could work...
 
Currently, I am using a SleepTalking Zapdos to help my team take status and I must say Stealth Rocks isn't as much of a problem (Although I do have Donphan as well) seeing as I put Leftovers on it. Discharge is nice for Paralysis too =) Sadly, he can't sweep as much...
 
Zapdos isn't really a free Electivire switch in. First, Zappy is faster. It really can just Metal Sound the Electivire switch and 2HKO with Extrasensory/HP Ice/Grass
 
Hmm, I just ran some numbers on Metalkid's Calc. The Resttalking Zapdos set from the Analysis can actually take a Draco Meteor and HP Ice back (It can take the second downgraded one too) So it is a good Specsmence counter me thinks.
 
Articuno was nerfed in the second generation by the special split and the loss of 90% accurate blizzards. Moltres has faded a little further with every generation. Zapdos might be past its prime (MrE insists it is the best GSC electric, and we all know what it is capable of in advanced), but it remains a potent weapon.

To blame only the DP transition for their unpopularity is wrong. People are missing a key point; without synchronizers in FRLG, soft reseting for natures and IVs is a nightmare, let alone hidden power. Given that most teams posted in the RMT subforum are intended for wifi play, it should be no surprise that the legendary birds (Zapdos) are (is) sparsely represented.

I am sure things will change as DPbot increases in popularity.
 
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