ORAS UU The Janitor's Closet (Cloyster Offensive Balance)

The Janitor's Closet
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forretress.png
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banette-mega.png


Introduction

Cloyster is a total beast. If the opponent doesn't have any physical walls or Pokémon that resist it, Cloyster can shred their entire team with ruthless efficiency. Unfortunately, that's a pretty big if. Fortunately, you're allowed a wand more than one Pokémon...

Teambuilding Process

As I'm sure you can tell from the above, this is a team built around Cloyster. It's designed to efficiently remove Cloyster's checks, beat up whatever walls the opponent may have, then bring in Cloyster and annihilate the vestiges of their team. This team has gone through several iterations, and didn't even start as a Cloyster team. Originally it was a VoltTurn team designed to abuse Regenerator Mienshao and just happened to run Cloyster as a powerful sweeper that could brought in off a slow switch. Since then, the team has migrated its focus away from gimmicky tempo to consistent pressure to prevent the opponent setting up effectively. All of the Pokémon on the team serve Cloyster in some way or another, be it setting entry hazards, removing entry hazards, wallbreaking, inflicting status, slow switching, or any number of other things. This is so far the most effective build of this team, but it has hit something of a cap, bouncing around in the ratings without gaining any significant number of points. This is why I have brought the team here.

The Team

aerodactyl.gif

Aerodactyl @ Focus Sash
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

Aerodactyl is pretty much always my lead. It outspeeds pretty much everything that doesn't run Choice Scarf or is Mega Beedrill/Aerodactyl. Taunt provides some proactive "entry hazard removal" and also cripples opening setup sweepers (and handily blocks Defog). Stealth Rock is, well, Stealth Rock. Stone Edge is the STAB move of choice and demolishes annoying stuff like Salamance and Crobat. I've found that Earthquake works better than the ever-popular Aerial Ace because without Aerodactylite, the latter simply doesn't have enough umph, and other than the former, I have no Ground-type moves, which can sometimes be something of a liability. The EV spread is pretty standard, so I don't think I need to explain it in great detail; Unnerve gets the edge over Pressure because it forces a switch against Belly Drum Slurpuff, and prevents those irksome Custap Berries from getting in my way; and Jolly is preferred over Adamant because it lets Aerodactyl snap off a Taunt against Azelf and Galvantula, and Aerodactyl is fragile enough it won't be attacking much anyway.

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Infernape @ Choice Band
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Stone Edge

Infernape is one of the best wallbreakers in UU. It takes care of Hydreigon, Forretress, Aggron, Mamoswine, Doublade, Mandibuzz, you name it. Infernape does have some anti-synergy with Cloyster in that it hits many of the same types as Cloyster, but it also deals with Steel-types and Umbreon, both of which are problematic for Cloyster, and it has enough raw power to put appreciable dents in anything else it needs to. However, a strong Ground type could potentially replace it, provided an alternative solution to Umbreon came with it. This build is a little different than the suggested sets, but there are reasons for that. The largest discrepancy is probably the use of Choice Band over Life Orb. The reasoning behind this is Life Orb recoil—especially with Flare Blitz recoil and Orb's lessened OHKO potential as compared with Choice Band—made Infernape much more fragile than I found useful. Choice Band offers more damage for the opponent and less damage for me, and that's a pretty good deal in my book. I'm not entirely convinced this is the right call, but so far it's worked fine. The second discrepancy is the moveset. Grass Knot has gotten the axe in favor of U-turn. U-turn was included as a tool against the bulky Psychic-types that could otherwise tank Infernape's attacks and hit back hard. In addition, not only does a pivot move increase the viability of Choice Band, but the removal of the build's only special attack allows for a more concentrated 252/4/252 EV spread. The overall result of this is massively increased damage potential and survivability, which is a deadly combo. Jolly beats out Adamant because Infernape isn't terribly fast without Jolly, and Choice Band and naturally strong moves make Infernape a solid threat without the extra boost from Adamant. A last note on the moveset: Stone Edge gets the *ahem* edge over Earthquake because it can take care of Rotom-H and Salamence, while Flare Blitz and Close Combat cover everything else Earthquake does that Stone Edge doesn't besides the Nidos and opposing Infernapes.

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Heliolisk @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Hyper Voice
- Grass Knot
- Thunderbolt

Water types run rampant in the UU metagame, and Cloyster does not appreciate them. As such, a check for them is necessary, and what better check than a Pokémon that's immune to their STAB attacks (and bloody Scald burns)? Not only that, but unlike Grass-types, Heliolisk doesn't take super-effective damage from the ubiquitous Ice Beam. Heliolisk is relatively simple. Life Orb pushes Heliolisk's power to respectable levels without the crippling coverage removal of Choice Specs, EVs are standard, and Timid enables Heliolisk to outspeed all the more Pokémon, which is critical given its poor bulk. Volt Switch is great for playing mind games and is decently powerful against physical walls and Electric-weak targets. Thunderbolt packs a bit more punch than Volt Switch and doesn't switch, which is useful for 2HKOing Blastoise, Suicune, and Empoleon. Hyper Voice is an alternative STAB option for dealing with Grass-, Ground-, and opposing Electric-types; and has a nasty tendency to OHKO things it has no business OHKOing (after Stealth Rock damage, usually). Finally, Grass Knot is a wonderful little surprise for Swampert and Krookodile. Heliolisk is uncommon enough that people don't usually expect this, and its one of the most priceless moments when playing this team, especially on a predicted switch.

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Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Gyro Ball
- Volt Switch

Firstly, it's no mistake that Forretress is the only non-Shiny Pokémon on the team; I don't know whether the shiny version looks more like urine or vomit, but it's gross. Anyway... A Cloyster with a broken Sash is not much of a Cloyster at all, and this team has several pivots, so a spinner is mandatory. Forretress stands out as the best of these, and is particularly synergistic with Cloyster. Leftovers provides passive recovery and boosts Forretress' already absurd longevity. Sturdy is better than Overcoat, because nobody is going to waste their time using the moves that Overcoat blocks on Forretress anyway, and Leftovers negates hail damage. The EV spread is designed to maximize Forretress' time on the field; very few things other than Fire Blast or Flamethrower can take out Forretress at any percentage. A lack of Speed IVs, along with a Relaxed nature ensure Gyro Ball deals as much damage as possible (Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Beedrill don't like this at all). Rapid Spin is mandatory to get rid of entry hazards, Spikes gives Forretress something extra to do, and isn't a bad move, but I'm seriously considering replacing it with Toxic but for the fact I don't want to poison Pokémon I could burn later. Volt Switch deals a neat chunk of damage to Water- and Flying-types, and provides the definition of a slow pivot to bring out Cloyster or any of the other Pokémon on the team, as none of them really enjoy taking a hit other than Forretress.

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Banette @ Banettite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Sneak
- Destiny Bond

With all the pivots on the team, it seems common sense to include a Ghost-type to tank Normal- and Fighting-type moves. (Hey there Choice Scarf Mienshao!) There aren't a ton of Ghost-types in UU, and Mega Banette is less fragile than Froslass, more powerful than Jellicent, less expected than Chandelure, more versatile than Spiritomb, and who actually uses Cofagrigus? Plus, Mega Banette has access to an amazing ability in Prankster (and a movepool to take advantage of it), which is reason enough to run it. Frisk is the only ability of regular Banette that does anything useful, 252 HP and 4 SpD EVs grant Mega Banette a little extra longevity, and 252 Atk EVs and an Adamant nature maximize Mega Banette's impressive Attack stat. Taunt stops status, recovery, and setup moves, all of which are detrimental to Mega Banette's functioning properly. Will-O-Wisp prevents physical attackers like Doublade from cutting Mega Banette's life unnecessarily short, and gets some neat damage in so Cloyster has less work to do. Shadow Sneak prevents Mega Banette from being Taunt bait, and packs a fair amount of punch with Mega Banette's high Attack. Finally, Destiny Bond is great for revenge-killing revenge-killers, which is particularly great because these tend to have priority and/or full health, and Cloyster isn't a big fan of either. Speaking of which...

cloyster.gif

Cloyster @ Focus Sash
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Ice Shard

Here he is in all his glory. It's Cloyster. I know the descriptions have been lengthy so far, so I'll keep this one short. Focus Sash guarantees a Shell Smash, Skill Link gives Icicle Spear and Rock Blast 125 BP, EV spread is standard, and Jolly is used over Adamant because Shell Smash provides enough power and going second isn't an option with a broken Sash. Shell Smash sends Cloyster's Attack to incredible levels and puts its Speed in the mid-500s, which outspeeds the entire tier unless they've used Agility or Rock Polish or had a few turns with Speed Boost or Dragon Dance. Icicle Spear is the STAB move of choice as it has an effective base power of 125 and ignores Sashes and Sturdy, Ice Shard beats priority moves that aren't Fake Out or Extreme Speed and diversifies Cloyster's role by allowing it to revenge-kill, and Rock Blast hits Ice- and Fire-types.

Conclusion

This team is looking to use Cloyster to its soul-crushing best. It has entry hazards, wallbreakers, and a weird trickster sort of thing to help it along, but it can't break through some of the higher-rated teams for an unknown reason. I'm looking for ideas as to what might be causing issues and potential solutions.

Thanks for checking this out!
 
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OK so I've tested this a bit, and while I'm actually pretty happy about the name and stuff considering Cloyster's analysis was one of my first, this team could use some work. I found the composition a bit weird due to Forretress's presence which really killed the hyper offensive theme that was going on. Anyways, I noticed the team had quite a few issues. The main one is the composition. I didn't really like how weirdly the team had to be played due to how Forretress and Banette killed momentum. Another is Banette, every game I played, I found it to be nothing more than a liability. For a Pokemon that I want to be using to support others, it's not too bulky and it's only attack move is 40 Base Power, extremely underwhelming. I never got to even DBond with it due to the necessity of sacking Pokemon against specific threats and how Banette needs a free turn to do anything of use. Next, I had the problem of being very weak to Choice Scarf users, particularly Hydreigon. Choice Scarf users could easily grab a KO depending on what move they use, and, in Hydreigon's case, it's just able to fire off powerful attacks with nothing to really come in on either STAB. I also found this team to be weak to quite a few common types and Pokemon, but I'll get into that a bit later. Anyways, I'll be fixing a small problem first, which is Cloyster. I'd recommend having Hydro Pump over Rock Blast on Cloyster, as too many a time I found myself question why exactly Hydro Pump wasn't used over Rock Blast due to the many similar things they hit and how Water-types were easily dealt with due to Heliolisk's presence. Hydro Pump would allow Cloyster to easily get past Aggron and Forretress, among others, after prior damage and not have to worry about sacking too many things just to ensure they're in range of Cloyster or removed entirely. This is a subjective suggestion but you could run another item over Focus Sash on Cloyster due to how I found most of its setup opportunities came against physical attackers that couldn't 2HKO anyhow. I hate to be the person to recommend this but King's Rock could be used, or even Life Orb / Nevermeltice tbh, again, a subjective suggestion. I'm going to recommend Mega Aerodactyl over Mega Banette, as it allows you to at least have a solid resistance to Fire-type attacks, give you something that helps give the team a very fast Pokemon as well as being a good check to all non-Bullet Punch variants of Lucario. Now, with Aerodactyl becoming the Mega, you can use Custap Forretress over the current set to function as your lead. It also helps remove a momentum killer and actually change it into a Pokemon that can easily give you momentum. With Mega Banette gone, you then have a slight weakness to Fighting-types, and thus I recommend using Nidoqueen to fill that hole. It also gives you a Ground-type to deter VoltTurn teams from easily gaining momentum. Lastly, be sure to have 0 Atk IVs on Heliolisk to minimize Foul Play damage.

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Roost
- Taunt

Honestly, most of the set is interchangeable. Should you wish, you could run 3 Attacks with Wing Attack over Taunt, or even the many other options Aerodactyl has at its disposal. I chose Taunt so you wouldn't miss having a fast Taunt user to help mitigate the problems Sash Lead Azelf could cause, but it also helps shut down some walls and gives you a slightly easier time against stall.

Forretress @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature / Jolly
IVs: 0 Spe
- Earthquake / Spikes / Gyro Ball / Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Explosion
- Stealth Rock

You could easily have anything you want on the first moveslot tbh. I just chose EQ so it wouldn't be easy prey for stuff like Chandelure and Cobalion. Although, if you prefer having more entry hazards, you could easily put Spikes or Toxic Spikes in the first moveslot.

Nidoqueen (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast / Toxic / Toxic Spikes / Fire Blast

EVs are interchangeable, I just chose Max Speed Modest to try and outpace other Nidoqueens, although it's up to you what you want to creep with this. The last move is also interchangeable, as all 4 options provide something. Focus Blast is the main choice due to how it allows you to deal with Umbreon, Porygon2, and Snorlax much better. Toxic is the second option, as it allows you to put a timer on Porygon2 and Cresselia. Toxic Spikes is the third option should you still want more entry hazards and didn't have this on Forretress. Lastly, Fire Blast is an option should Bronzong prove to be a nuisance.
 
Hey there fren, so I didn't test the team, but Cloyster immediately drew me in and looking at what you have right now, there are some weaknesses. You mentioned Scarf Mienshoa and that was one of my first thoughts too. The Kreme mentioned Scarf Hydreigon and Fire-types, both things I noticed would be an issue for this team. I just wanted to further emphasize the Fire weakness because as it stands your switchin to Entei, Darm or opposing Infernape is your own Infernape. After reading your analysis, I could not see a reason to run a suicide lead-type Aero and have a functioning member in Forrestress. My first thought was to get rid of Aero and just rely on Forre for Stealth Rock, as it is your only defensive mon, then you wouldnt have to potentially start a game 5-6 (losing what could have been a threat and keeping a spinner) and have your Forre get weakened while you try to keep multiple layer of Spikes up and keep hazards off of your team.

Looking at what Kreme said, I do like switching Mega Banette for Mega Aerodactyl because it does give you at least a vague resistance to fire attacks, though it might not want to take them, it still can just keep in mind they do about half, so roost would be beneficial. The set that Kreme gave you is really good for taking out Fire-types as well I highly recommend this switch.

I support the Custap Forretress but only if you change the Cloyster set. I am iffy on Custap Forre only because then you lack removal and with only, potentially, MAero with recovery. Infernape's FB recoil will rack up cause band is serious and LO Helio has the same issue, plus hazards makes me nervous. I would like to suggest Stealth Rock Forretress over current set and Florges over Banette. This seems like a step in the wrong direction, but you actually have zero Draco switchins and if they are from scarf Hydreigon then you actually lose a mon every time that come in (unless you have non-custap forre). Florges stop Scarf Hydreigon which is the biggest threat to any of the current vaiation of this team, as well as being able to take special hits which Forre can never do that well. I am also a huge advocate of Defensive Whimsicott, which if played correctly can work well with the team and help with its utility, but you would have to play around with fire blast from Hydreigon and that's no fun, I guess.

If you do choose to got the more suicide lead route for the team, and replace Focus sash on Cloyser for one of the Kreme-suggested items (Kin's Rock sound like a hoot), then might I suggest using Suicide Lead Azelf. It is already fast, so no need for custap and it can help you against other lead mons that want hazards up against your team. Custap Forretress is a good mon, don't get me wrong, but if it is taunted turn one then it slows down what your team is trying to do. Azelf will allow you to outspeed other leads and taunt, set up rocks, explode, knock off, flamethrower, psychic you get the idea. And if you end up going for this more HO style then being able to start breaking things for Closyer on Turn 2 will be pretty good, as opposed to maybe turn 4 or 5 or even later.

Some of my suggested sets:

Florges @ Leftovers
Ability: Flower Veil
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Aromatherapy/Synthesis

Just a standard Florges set, I don't think you would be able to pass too many wishes, but option is there. Synthesis is for more immediate healing in case since status might be an issue for the team.

Azelf @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
- Explosion

This is the Azelf set I like to use. Azelf is one of those mons that can have multiple sets for one job. With this set you have a favorable role in KOing Espeon with Knock, and it allows you to taunt slower leads or even get your rocks up. I like this set because it gets rid of the need to predict. You can just see what they lead and click moves accordingly.

Hope anything that I said helps out, I really like the Cloyster aspect like I said (even if i didn't mention it much). :]
 
Wow. Thank you for this expansive commentary. I'm going to respond to the major points, but I did read the whole responses and will take them into account.

1) Rock Blast over Hydro Pump: I use Rock Blast over Hydro Pump for 3 reasons (these in no particular order):
a) Rock Blast has better accuracy, and missing with your last Pokémon at low HP from setup is really bad.
b) Rock Blast is physical, allowing for more concentrated EVs and therefore a higher OHKO rate.
c) Rock Blast hits any leftover Water-types for neutral and Ice-types for super effective.​
Now, I will concede that Hydro Pump hits Fire-types for more than Rock Blast, which is really the major point of Rock Blast anyway. However, the accuracy and special nature of Hydro Blast do not seem like things I want. What are your thoughts on Razor Shell? It still ekes out a little more power than Rock Blast with STAB, and it's physical so I can keep more effective EVs. And as you mentioned, Heliolisk does a fantastic job dealing with Water-types as-is.

2) Cloyster's Item: Focus Sash has been useful enough of the time so far that I don't think I want to drop it. Rotom-H is somewhat bothersome to deal with for this team and if it happens to be out when Cloyster comes in, Sash is necessary. Mega Aerodactyl is more-easily dealt with beforehand than Rotom-H, but if it sticks around its Stone Edge will also kill Cloyster. Other Pokémon can outspeed Cloyster as well and deal damage in the 90s, and it seems to me all that is necessary for that to become 100 is a Life Orb set or an Adamant nature selected over a Jolly one.

3) Mega Aerodactyl: I won't deny that Mega Aerodactyl is a great Pokémon, and he's been in and out of the team. However, he seems to be continuously quoted as a check to Fire-types, which Aerodactyl already does and Infernape as well. Is there some reason Mega Aerodactyl is better than another Mega such as Beedrill or Sharpedo? Both of these can check Fire-types, and both run Protect to shut down Scarf Mienshao, which was Banette's original purpose (Banette being who these would replace). Mega Blastoise could also replace Forretress as more of an offensive spinner.

4) Custap Forretress: I don't think I'll be using this, simply because I want better access to hazard removal, and Forretress is serious Taunt bait. Taunt sucks. Entry hazards suck. Forretress doesn't beat these (as) well when it's a lead. However, with Banette's removal, I think I'll try cutting Spikes for Toxic, since there's no longer any crowding as far as status goes. I may also try Mega Blastoise as a more offensive spinner in Forretress' place.

5) Nidoqueen: I said a strong Ground-type that brought an answer to Umbreon could supplant Infernape, and I think one just did. I really liked Infernape because it dealt with opposing Forretress well and could also take out Salamence on the predicted switch. A fighting-type move was also necessary because otherwise I had no answer to Umbreon, period, or Hydreigon until Cloyster came out (too late). Nidoqueen deals with everything Infernape does and has more bulk, and has tech against that stupid Florges as well. I highly suspect this will be a permanent switch.

6) Azelf: I've always been partial to Aerodactyl as a suicide lead because it Taunts this very Pokémon 100% of the time and completely ruins its day. This can only speed-tie with other SL Azelf, but I think it's worth a shot. If this is a popular option, I might return to Aerodactyl. I do appreciate Azelf's ability to deal with Espeon though.

7) Florges: Compelling... Not sure whether I like this or Mega Sharpedo more. Both make Mienshao cry, both deal with Dragon-types, but other that that they're pretty much complete opposites. Mega Sharpedo has a neat resistance to Fire, but Rotom-H doesn't particularly care. Florges can beat Rotom-H, but Sacred Fire and Flare Blitz are more threatening to Florges than they are to Mega Sharpedo, and the latter seem more common. Wish support seems great when I've got two Life Orbs, and Aromatherapy can cure those annoying burns. On the other hand, Crunch takes care of Reuniclus and Cresselia, which otherwise take a long time to kill. I think I'll try Florges out first and then tty out Sharpedo and see which I like better.

Thank you both for your input!
 
Just to clear something up, Mega Beedrill and Mega Sharpedo, though being good megas, do not check Fire-types. What they do with Protect is scout, which is very different. Scouting allows you to see what the opponent locks themselves into, i.e. Banded Entei, Scarf Darmanitan. A check is usually something that can switch into or take a specific move or pokemon. Another thing to remember is that these pokemon also have coverage moves, Espeed, Superpower, Rock Slide, Stone Edge, EQ and those can be the bigger problem. Scarf Darm outspeeds Mega Bee, so that can't switch in or take a hit, and Banded Entei almost always OHKO's Mega Bee and 2HKO's Mega Sharpedo with Espeed and Sharpedo has a small chance to OHKO with Waterfall. Plus you speed tie Scarf Mienshoa with +1 Mega Sharpedo and they don't have to lock themselves in on HJK they can use U-Turn and do a minimum of 70%. This is not to say these are bad megas at all because they aren't. I was just trying to clear up something that may have been misconstrued.

Mega Aerodactyl on the other hand, can switch in to a plethora of Fire-type attacks, do to its resistance and decent bulk, and outspeed (even before it mega evolves) on the following turn and immediatly threaten that pokemon. As long as the Fire-type in question is not Scarfed then Mega Aero is an immediate threat. Mega Bee and Shark cannot switch in and when the do come in on a fire type the protect will be obvious.

I hope that makes sense and I don't sound stupid. :]
 
NIce team I don't know if this suggestion is that great but give forretress stealth rock and take aerodactyl out for chesnaught as it can check scarf mienshao witch your team is weak to and has access to spikes or maybe even granbull who can live a poison jab thanks to intimitade and threat it out with play rough
 
Dread Plate: Thanks for clearing that up! I don't have all the numbers memorized on stuff so I wasn't really privy to the exact matchups like how +1 Mega Sharpedo only ties with Scarf Mienshao. This was very enlightening and pushes me towards Mega Aerodactyl. However, this causes another dilemma, as what do I replace with Mega Aerodactyl if Azelf is my new lead? For reference, the prototype I'm currently using is Suicide Lead Azelf, Kreme's Nidoqueen, Defensive Forretress, Life Orb Heliolisk, your Florges, and of course Cloyster. Should Mega Aerodactyl return as my lead in place of Azelf, or can it do something else's job better?

Eon lights: Why thank you! As for your suggestion, I'm not really drawn to Chesnaught except as a Belly Drummer (which doesn't fit this team) because defensively it can't deal with common threats such as Crobat, Mega Aerodactyl, and Honchkrow.
 
Wow. Thank you for this expansive commentary. I'm going to respond to the major points, but I did read the whole responses and will take them into account.

1) Rock Blast over Hydro Pump: I use Rock Blast over Hydro Pump for 3 reasons (these in no particular order):
a) Rock Blast has better accuracy, and missing with your last Pokémon at low HP from setup is really bad.
b) Rock Blast is physical, allowing for more concentrated EVs and therefore a higher OHKO rate.
c) Rock Blast hits any leftover Water-types for neutral and Ice-types for super effective.​
Now, I will concede that Hydro Pump hits Fire-types for more than Rock Blast, which is really the major point of Rock Blast anyway. However, the accuracy and special nature of Hydro Blast do not seem like things I want. What are your thoughts on Razor Shell? It still ekes out a little more power than Rock Blast with STAB, and it's physical so I can keep more effective EVs. And as you mentioned, Heliolisk does a fantastic job dealing with Water-types as-is.

2) Cloyster's Item: Focus Sash has been useful enough of the time so far that I don't think I want to drop it. Rotom-H is somewhat bothersome to deal with for this team and if it happens to be out when Cloyster comes in, Sash is necessary. Mega Aerodactyl is more-easily dealt with beforehand than Rotom-H, but if it sticks around its Stone Edge will also kill Cloyster. Other Pokémon can outspeed Cloyster as well and deal damage in the 90s, and it seems to me all that is necessary for that to become 100 is a Life Orb set or an Adamant nature selected over a Jolly one.

3) Mega Aerodactyl: I won't deny that Mega Aerodactyl is a great Pokémon, and he's been in and out of the team. However, he seems to be continuously quoted as a check to Fire-types, which Aerodactyl already does and Infernape as well. Is there some reason Mega Aerodactyl is better than another Mega such as Beedrill or Sharpedo? Both of these can check Fire-types, and both run Protect to shut down Scarf Mienshao, which was Banette's original purpose (Banette being who these would replace). Mega Blastoise could also replace Forretress as more of an offensive spinner.

4) Custap Forretress: I don't think I'll be using this, simply because I want better access to hazard removal, and Forretress is serious Taunt bait. Taunt sucks. Entry hazards suck. Forretress doesn't beat these (as) well when it's a lead. However, with Banette's removal, I think I'll try cutting Spikes for Toxic, since there's no longer any crowding as far as status goes. I may also try Mega Blastoise as a more offensive spinner in Forretress' place.

5) Nidoqueen: I said a strong Ground-type that brought an answer to Umbreon could supplant Infernape, and I think one just did. I really liked Infernape because it dealt with opposing Forretress well and could also take out Salamence on the predicted switch. A fighting-type move was also necessary because otherwise I had no answer to Umbreon, period, or Hydreigon until Cloyster came out (too late). Nidoqueen deals with everything Infernape does and has more bulk, and has tech against that stupid Florges as well. I highly suspect this will be a permanent switch.

6) Azelf: I've always been partial to Aerodactyl as a suicide lead because it Taunts this very Pokémon 100% of the time and completely ruins its day. This can only speed-tie with other SL Azelf, but I think it's worth a shot. If this is a popular option, I might return to Aerodactyl. I do appreciate Azelf's ability to deal with Espeon though.

7) Florges: Compelling... Not sure whether I like this or Mega Sharpedo more. Both make Mienshao cry, both deal with Dragon-types, but other that that they're pretty much complete opposites. Mega Sharpedo has a neat resistance to Fire, but Rotom-H doesn't particularly care. Florges can beat Rotom-H, but Sacred Fire and Flare Blitz are more threatening to Florges than they are to Mega Sharpedo, and the latter seem more common. Wish support seems great when I've got two Life Orbs, and Aromatherapy can cure those annoying burns. On the other hand, Crunch takes care of Reuniclus and Cresselia, which otherwise take a long time to kill. I think I'll try Florges out first and then tty out Sharpedo and see which I like better.

Thank you both for your input!

OK so I'm not going to go over some of the stuff that pertains to changes suggested by Dread Plate. Anyhow, Razor Shell hits for less damage than Hydro Pump, I ran a lot of calcs while writing that Cloyster analysis and it hits nothing you'd want to be hitting harder that you don't hit with Icicle Spear already. Yes, you will miss, but really, is it that much of a miss difference from Rock Blast? Also, there are no more effective EVs you need to waste on using mixed Cloyster because the only EVs you need to put into SpA are 4. And also a Naive nature, which, I admit, I forgot to mention. While Rock Blast can clean up Water-types, you should be able to weaken them to a point you could probably do the same with Icicle Spear anyhow. Focus Sash being changed was a subjective suggestion and not a main one, thus the lack of bolding, so all good there. OK so, Mega Aerodactyl has advantages over Mega Beedrill and Mega Sharpedo in the fact it can switch into Fire-types while having a solid option for recovery. Mega Beedrill dies to any Fire-type hit under the sun while Mega Sharpedo can probably switch into a Fire-type attack once and then get KOed after being forced out again. With Nidoqueen on the squad, you already have something for Scarf Mienshao, which, as long as you don't play against horribly, you should be fine. OK so Custap Forretress. Yes, it's Taunt bait but that's why I suggested having Taunt Mega Aerodactyl among a lot of other reasons. If the opponent has an Azelf or Froslass or Crobat that potentially have Taunt, simply lead with Aerodactyl over Forretress to ensure you have the upper hand. When it's a lead, Forretress can still function outside of lead duties due to how many resistances it has. As long as you know your damage calcs you can play around damage rolls until you get it in Custap Berry range for a clutch Rapid Spin. Besides, the team as a whole isn't too prone to entry hazards with the exception of Cloyster, which can set up against Pokemon without the sash as is. I wouldn't have Nidoqueen over Infernape for the sole reason of Nidoqueen having a Fighting-type attack to somewhat cover for it. Infernape provided a lot of pressure on opposing teams during testing and it provided a very nice VoltTurn core with some of the other members. Anyhow, I wouldn't compile my changes with Dread Plate's considering we both went very different ways with this. Nevertheless, I hope I wasn't too rude or sounded as such, apologies if so.
 
No worries about (notably nonexistent) rudeness; criticism is what I came here for! Unfortunately, a lot of your last comments were rendered irrelevant (at least in the short term) because I cut Forretress for Tentacruel after testing for a while. This is still a work in progress, but here's what I've come up with after a few hours of testing.

=== [uu] The Janitor's Closet ===

Cloyster @ Focus Sash
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Shard

Azelf @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
- Explosion

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hone Claws
- Stone Edge
- Roost
- Aerial Ace

Heliolisk @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Dark Pulse
- Grass Knot
- HP Ice

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic Spikes
- Sludge Wave
- Scald

Infernape @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge

======

I tried out everything that was suggested (and a lot more) except Custap Forretress, and I liked quite a bit of it. However, Florges did a big fat nothing, Whimsicott, while theoretically promising, was sadly practically underpowered, and Nidoqueen seemed great but it never accomplished much somehow. I put Infernape back in (with Adamant/Scarf instead of Jolly/Band), cut Banette for Azelf, Mega-ized Aerodactyl, messed with Heliolisk's moveset to make him more versatile, and cut Forretress for Tentacruel. This last change I think was a very good move because Tentacruel helps out with Fire instead of compounding the team's weakness to it, and has much greater offensive presence. Additionally, Toxic Spikes really helps out against stall teams, which this team has a lot of trouble breaking through.

Thoughts on this new set?
 
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Hi pinkzeppelincult,

Looking at your new team, the thing that jumps out at me the most is the trouble playing around ground types. Additionally, this is made worse by Tentacruel being on the team. I'm unsure why you added it - look at the rest of your team. It's brutally offensive. Then, think about each time you send in Tentacruel - how many mons can setup on Cruel, can Defog on Cruel, can Wish on Cruel. In trying to balance your team you've actually made it weaker, in my opinion, especially as Cruel lacks VoltTurn initiative.

One of the troubles with Cloyster is that you really want to keep your sash intact, and I definitely get that. My first OU team in Gen 6 ran sash Cloyster as well, haha. So in order to accomplish that you're going to need a spinner, as with offensive teams you typically don't want to Defog very often, the common knowledge being "it's better to have hazards on both sides of the field than none".

So we're left at an impasse - you need an offensive spinner that doesn't sap momentum and isn't really weak to ground types/one of the more common mons in the tier. A pretty big ask, but this one slot can tighten up your team a lot without having to necessarily change the rest of it very much, which is usually ideal for rating teams.

The above description fits Blastoise to a T (also, sort of Forry, but you're right in that it makes Entei and stuff harder to deal with). Unfortunately, this obvious means you can't run MAero, but it seems you wanted MAero to mainly to offensively check fire types in general. MBlastoise does a lot more for you than MAero too, beating things that give Cloyster trouble like MAggron.

With your free slot I think you can also aid in setting up the Cloyster sweeps you want. Specs Rotom-C is a really good option, putting immediate pressure on mons such as Suicune who otherwise wall your sweeper and are very common in the tier. Additionally, more added to the VoltTurn core (and a check to grounds) means your team functions much more coherently. With VoltTurning you're able to get in your Cloyster more often on chances to Shell Smash and win without necessarily risking it on a double or having to sacrifice for an easy switch.

Sets:

Blastoise @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Dark Pulse
- Aura Sphere

The EV spread should be updated per your liking. For your team, I recommend outspeeding Cresselia and Suicune. Take EVs from HP and put them in Speed for this.

Rotom-Mow @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Trick
 
It's funny that you mention Mega Blastoise. I tried that exact set out and liked him for a while, but I went to Tentacruel so that I would have tech against Fairy- and Grass-types, and Toxic Spikes is amazing against those blasted stall teams. I can give Blastoise another shot. Mega Aerodactyl has been doing a lot for me, and while I'm willing to cut him, I would really prefer it were for another physical attacker. My first thought is Crobat, which retains a blisteringly fast Taunt (which supplanted Home Claws recently) and deals with Florges very well. However, I really do like Rock, so what do people think of this?

Rhyperior @ Choice Band / Zoom Lens / Life Orb
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Megahorn
- Poison Jab /
Ice Punch /
Hammer Arm

Or perhaps this?

Pangoro @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hammer Arm
- Knock Off
- Gunk Shot /
Poison Jab
- Parting Shot /
Drain Punch /
Ice Punch
 
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You hate waters, you have a cloyster, stop overthinking just run explosion on lum/LO cloyster to remove them. That + hydro pretty much lets it body all of HC maero's checks and counters if your using the good spread of 88 speed/168 hp/252 atk jolly on HC/roost Maero. Sorry but that's the most work cloyster can do in the UU metagame, its not a consistent sweeper in "bulky waters and priority, the tier". If you really want it to shine cloyster should be treated as a lure/utility mon that can double as a backup wincon not a main sweeper.

As for offensively checking fire types aka Entie Entie and Entie just make everyone but cloyster faster than base 100 adamant with a move to smack it after rocks. Bulky maero shits on everything else.

Future changes wise... you'll have more fun tweaking this team on your own with help from the battling 101/uu resources/uu sample teams threads. You've got a lot to learn and frankly this forum is an awful place to get that knowledge. Too many chefs yada yada.

Edit: There is 0 reason to run more than 96+ speed invest on Maero unless your team is so weak to opposing Maero's and DD gatr's that you need to rely on a damn 252+ speed maero to function as a half assed soft check. The bulk invest is priceless allowing you to always live... everything. No really you just live. (88+ is 109 252+ pre mega, 96+ is 252+ crobat after mega, both outspeed base 145 252 neutral easily)
 
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1) Not the direction I'm taking my team. The idea is to build around Cloyster, that's using Cloyster as a suicide bomber. Kinda hard to build around something that is going to kill itself all the time. Bulky water types are annoying, yes, but Heliolisk completely annihilates them.

2) Speed isn't the issue. Have you heard of Extreme Speed? Fire-types aren't really a big issue anymore anyway, but I suppose you had no way of knowing that. In fact, I haven't lost to an offensive team in a long time except when my Aerodactyl got 2HKOed because I forgot to Mega Evolve it. What I'm working on now is how to punch through defensive teams.

3) Thank you for the suggestion, I will go check those out!
 
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Why you hate bulky teams 101.

You struggle against defensive teams because the team is built around a cloyster using a set with no way to punish defensive teams. The team also uses a suicide lead and 2 momentum killers which somewhat defeats the purpose, furthermore scarfed infernape has all the usefulness of wet cigarette against the same teams I get that its supposed to volturn with lisk but... protect exists leaving both of those mons dead in the water. This forces you to start each and every game vs a defensive team at an effective 2 vs 5 (assuming azelf lands a lucky explosion). Aka Maero and scald soaker vs the world ft death fodder. Aka not a cloyster team.

The most immediate fix to this was boom cloyster who immediately makes half your team useful again vs defensive teams by allowing tenta to swim freely because empoleon is dead now, nape to spam flare because alomamola/suicune/slowking/vaporeon are dead now, and lisk to freely volturn with fren nape because snorelax is dead now. Oh and bulky Maero becomes a god who can actually finish off the game with no scald around.

Singleshellfishly turning a 2-5 unwinnable game into a 4-4 damage race with rocks and tspikes hampering your opponent is pretty star-of-the-show-game-winning even if its not a "ROFL I SWEEP WOW".

The cost of this utility? No sash (man 1 hp cloyster is great in a tier full of those go fast moves you know so much about), and no ice shard (damn guess I'll have to use my nape who's only reason to wear a scarf ever is to RK everything ice shard hits).

I don't know what your talking about an explosion is the ultimate shining moment

Tl:DR: To use an awful sports analogy, a quarterback will rarely score his own touchdowns, but nobody can deny he's the star of the show in every game.
 
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Right. New team.

Cloyster @ Lum Berry
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Hydro Pump
- Explosion

Cloyster is pretty much the same. However, Explosion does seem to work better than Ice Shard and Hydro Pump better than Razor Shell or Rock Blast. In addition, since I'm now more willing to pull Cloyster out whenever there's a physical attacker that can't really do much to it, or a special wall that needs killing, Focus Sash isn't necessary and Lum Berry keeps burns and paralysis out of the picture.

Azelf @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
- Explosion

Azelf is my new lead. It outspeeds pretty much everything up to Aerodactyl, so it can fire off Taunt and Stealth Rock at an appreciable pace, Knock Off is a very useful move (that handily OHKOs one Magic Bouncer and 2HKOs another), and Explosion can often take out a special wall or bulky Water-type Pokémon that would otherwise get in the way.

Infernape @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Stone Edge

ScarfNape has proved to be rather amazing. It has great coverage, and even without Life Orb or Choice Band, it has sufficient power to take care of what it needs to. Scarf lets Infernape outspeed key threats like Scarf Darmanitan, Galvantula, Mega Beedrill, Mega Aerodactyl, and pretty much everything else that isn't at least +2. I might swap U-turn for Earthquake, but I'm still figuring out whether or not I use U-turn enough for it to be worth it.

Blastoise @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Aura Sphere

Mega Blastoise is incredible. Even without investment, it tanks even super effective attacks like a pro, and with a diverse movepool bolstered by Mega Launcher, hits like a tank as well. I'm sure you're wondering where the STAB move is, and the answer is it isn't there, for a very good reason. When was the last time somebody switched a Rock- or Fire-type into a Water-type? Now when was the last time somebody switched a Dragon- or Grass-type into a Water-type? Nobody expects the lack of a Water-type move, so they remain predictable as ever. Rapid Spin is always useful, Aura Sphere dispatches Mega Aggron hilariously quickly, and Dark Pulse deals with Ghost-types and Cresselia and Reuniclus.

Heliolisk @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Grass Knot
- HP Ice

Still an all-star for the team, losing the ability to switch moves removes some utility for dealing with Ground-types, but the increased power for breaking down Water-types and actually killing things with HP Ice is worth it, not to mention the lack of recoil. However, I decided Volt Switch was necessary with Specs, so Dark Pulse got the boot since Mega Blastoise is already rocking it.

Whimsicott @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Taunt
- Encore
- Moonblast
- Energy Ball

Whimsicott has great defensive typing and bulk, but comes with an ability and movepool that can be utilized to great effect offensively. Encore shuts down setup sweepers, which otherwise can destroy this team. Taunt is a more proactive version, and it can block status moves before they happen, which is always great. Moonblast and Energy Ball are just the most powerful STAB moves available.

Any thoughts?
 
Right. New team.

Cloyster @ Lum Berry
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Hydro Pump
- Explosion

Cloyster is pretty much the same. However, Explosion does seem to work better than Ice Shard and Hydro Pump better than Razor Shell or Rock Blast. In addition, since I'm now more willing to pull Cloyster out whenever there's a physical attacker that can't really do much to it, or a special wall that needs killing, Focus Sash isn't necessary and Lum Berry keeps burns and paralysis out of the picture.

Azelf @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
- Explosion

Azelf is my new lead. It outspeeds pretty much everything up to Aerodactyl, so it can fire off Taunt and Stealth Rock at an appreciable pace, Knock Off is a very useful move (that handily OHKOs one Magic Bouncer and 2HKOs another), and Explosion can often take out a special wall or bulky Water-type Pokémon that would otherwise get in the way.

Infernape @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Stone Edge

ScarfNape has proved to be rather amazing. It has great coverage, and even without Life Orb or Choice Band, it has sufficient power to take care of what it needs to. Scarf lets Infernape outspeed key threats like Scarf Darmanitan, Galvantula, Mega Beedrill, Mega Aerodactyl, and pretty much everything else that isn't at least +2. I might swap U-turn for Earthquake, but I'm still figuring out whether or not I use U-turn enough for it to be worth it.

Blastoise @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Aura Sphere

Mega Blastoise is incredible. Even without investment, it tanks even super effective attacks like a pro, and with a diverse movepool bolstered by Mega Launcher, hits like a tank as well. I'm sure you're wondering where the STAB move is, and the answer is it isn't there, for a very good reason. When was the last time somebody switched a Rock- or Fire-type into a Water-type? Now when was the last time somebody switched a Dragon- or Grass-type into a Water-type? Nobody expects the lack of a Water-type move, so they remain predictable as ever. Rapid Spin is always useful, Aura Sphere dispatches Mega Aggron hilariously quickly, and Dark Pulse deals with Ghost-types and Cresselia and Reuniclus.

Heliolisk @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Grass Knot
- HP Ice

Still an all-star for the team, losing the ability to switch moves removes some utility for dealing with Ground-types, but the increased power for breaking down Water-types and actually killing things with HP Ice is worth it, not to mention the lack of recoil. However, I decided Volt Switch was necessary with Specs, so Dark Pulse got the boot since Mega Blastoise is already rocking it.

Whimsicott @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Taunt
- Encore
- Moonblast
- Energy Ball

Whimsicott has great defensive typing and bulk, but comes with an ability and movepool that can be utilized to great effect offensively. Encore shuts down setup sweepers, which otherwise can destroy this team. Taunt is a more proactive version, and it can block status moves before they happen, which is always great. Moonblast and Energy Ball are just the most powerful STAB moves available.

Any thoughts?

Alright, changes seems strong. I would just say just because things that are weak to water moves don't want to come in on Blastoise does not mean you shouldn't run Scald or Water Pulse or even Hydro Pump. The availability of the STAB move is worth it. In this case I would suggest Scald/Hydro>Aura Sphere. This was you have a means you still have a means of hitting Steel-types and you can burn other things that might want to come in, and you also get that STAB option and the ability to spam Scald with would be great for bulkier things if they got burned.

Whims should be running U-turn>Energy Ball. This is because the man idea here is to lock a mon into an unfavorable move and take advantage of it. Where Energy Ball is a strong move, it doesn't do much of anything if you're Encoring something. U-turn gives you the momentum and initiative you need to pressure the opponent, and it gives you another opportunity to set up with Cloyster. Energy Ball would only be useful for Encoring Feraligatr into a set up move and the opponent didn't switch out.

Team looks good though, hope you're enjoying it! :]
 
U-turn on Whimsicott is a great idea. I was originally trying to make absolutely sure it could check Feraligatr, but I think more often a slow pivot will be more useful than a slow Energy Ball.

Blastoise's set so far is working really well for me, and Aura Sphere can get rid of Lucario, Cobalion, Scrafty, Umbreon, and a whole host of other things. A STAB move would probably assist with Forretress and be slightly more effective when spamming, but I think for now the extra diversity is more important.
 
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