OU The future of RBY OU in Smogon

[Amaranth]

It’s pretty clear that with the release of Gen 8 RBY faces the threat of removal from official tournaments, and even if the slow development of low tiers will probably keep this tier alive for SPL11, it will be no doubt removed in future editions if nothing changes. I want to try and work out a way to save this tier in time - we have one year to make changes and one SPL11 to prove that RBY can be good before we get axed forever, the optimist in me wants to believe that we can make this time count and change enough minds in time for SPL12.

Now, this tier has a lot of problems. The case I’ll try to make is that multiple things at the top of OU are outright broken, and while broken checks broken has done a good job at keeping the individual elements of the tier balanced, it hasn’t done a good job in making it them any less broken individually, and ultimately our tier is a clusterfuck of absurd mechanics and it could be in a much better spot if we had the balls to make some changes. Let's have a look at our tier and see if anything deserves to be banned going by the Tiering Policy Framework.

Snorlax is broken. Stupid bulk and survivability, Body Slam is practically unresisted and the only things that resist it get nuked by coverage, its strongest check is itself, a ban on him alone would make other things problematic because in itself Snorlax is the best ‘Normal resist’ available, but you can’t tell me he’s not broken.

The list of reasons for Tauros being broken is very similar, Body Slam is a STAB move with basically no resists, obviously Tauros trades fatness for speed and crits but the core issue remains. How many Tauros wars have you seen because nothing else can 1v1 it as easily as your own Tauros? It's broken

Chansey is unhealthy. Even the strongest special attackers in the game (Articuno’s Blizzard says hi) can’t put a dent in it. It’s not unbeatable, but that’s not the point - the amount of things it absolutely nullifies cannot be considered healthy, unless you’re used to the unhealthy cesspool that is RBY.

Sleep moves are both broken and uncompetitive. Broken because putting things out of commission for up to 7 turns is ridiculous, uncompetitive because who gets to put who to sleep is often decided on mirrors or blind guesses in the opening turns of the game. This used to be different when people were content trading thunder waves turn one, but things have shifted since then. Oh and turn 0/1 wakes can reward the player who made the worse play with alarming frequency which is also uncompetitive, and super long sleeps aren’t great to deal with either.


Wrap, do I even need to make the argument? Shit only flies because RBY has been able to ignore tiering policy frameworks since forever, it would get banned in any other tier. If someone wishes to discuss this I can elaborate but I don’t think I need to, it fits the definition of uncompetitive to a T. I believe firespin/clamp/bind are not as bad due to lower PP and accuracy which significantly increases counterplay to them, but I can see the argument against those as well.


I believe these changes would already make things significantly better in terms of tier playability. There’s the obvious matter of Psychics and the obvious matter of Zapdos (and maybe Rhydon/Golem), but I’d like to see a metagame develop with the above things banned before making a judgement on these.


I am going to host a tournament in the appropriate subforum soon with these changes applied, and possibly bans on Alakazam/Starmie/Zapdos as well - I'll give them more thought. I hope to get at least some people behind me with this initiative and try to make the necessary changes to keep RBY alive long term on Smogon. I understand I am suggesting to break the traditions that have been in place for about 20 years so I don't expect massive support, but I want to at least try and push for the change I want to see. I want to stress that it's either doing this or getting axed from team tournaments - people are pushing for WCoP to shift to full current gen OU as well, so if we don't do anything we're probably going to have no RBY representation in team tours at all by 2021. I know there are people who are fine with that, people who are more attached to PokémonPerfect / ladder / the tier that has been in place for years, and they don't care about what Smogon does with it, and to those people I don't have much to say - I respect your stance, keep playing the tier you want to play. But I care about the tier's status in this community specifically, I believe SPL is the best thing this game has to offer period, I want this metagame to finally be tiered according to Smogon guidelines because in my eyes it'd be good for everyone, the quality of our tier will improve and the community will be happier to involve us in the biggest tournaments, but we need to step up and have the balls to make the massive changes this tier needs, they have every right to kick us out if we refuse to do that.


Use this thread to discuss your thoughts on the future of RBY, opinions on how to save its place in tournaments long term, and if you agree with my general line of thought, discuss the specific bans you’d wish to see.

 

[Sacrificed]

Even though it is too early to talk about zapdos starmie and alakazam what makes you think they are on radar?(by the way radar ì meant potential ban).Note that I am not experienced rby player ì just watched few high play replays, just askin.

 

[Amaranth]

Even though it is too early to talk about zapdos starmie and alakazam what makes you think they are on radar?(by the way radar ì meant potential ban).Note that I am not experienced rby player ì just watched few high play replays, just askin.

Zapdos is generally really powerful, Rhydon/Golem/Jolteon are hard stops to it (especially the first two) and it might become standard to run one of those on your team anyway, but if he's not facing one of those, his Thunderbolts are incredibly strong.
Starmie and Alakazam's Psychics are problematic for the same reason Snorlax is problematic - nothing resists Psychic except Psychics themselves. They're quite frail physically but when you remove Tauros and Snorlax you're not left with many physical hitters that can tank a hit or two from them - Kangaskhan and Persian get 2HKOd for instance, so yes they threaten damage but they also get threatened back hard. Recover and Thunder Wave + a good special stat means they pretty much win the 1 on 1 against any non-Psychic Special type, with handfuls of exceptions (Starmie's Electric weakness is pretty big in that regard, but Alakazam basically has no weaknesses so he beats pretty much any Special attacker assuming he doesn't have prior chip/status). I do want to see them outside of the ridiculous context that Chansey+Snorlax+Tauros creates before deeming them broken, but they have a lot of things that make them scary, 'only checked by themselves' + 'very fast' + 'thunder wave and recover' is a dangerous combination

 

[marcoasd]

Appreciate someone is trying to do something, RBY OU is in a pathetic state.

I don't think Snorlax is broken, Reflect and paraslam immunity are; given that you cannot touch paraslam immunity, try out Reflect on/off.
This is true for Chansey as well, players who have been around before 2014 know how annoying Starmie and friends can be: Chansey is somewhat needed.

Wrap depends on the context, mainly the average speed of standard teams: if you want to ban Snorlax and Chansey, you hardly will need a Wrap ban. Wrap (on/off) is the last thing you want to check.

Sleep moves suck, but keep in mind that you need other ways to keep setuppers in check.

Smogon's tiering guidelines are meant to be used for generations with 700+ doodles (I don't consider coffins, washing machines and "Exeggutors after failing suicide attempts" to be pokemon, that's a total loss of respect to the original idea of the franchise and cow milking).
Just try to make it work.

Best of luck.

 

[Amaranth]

Appreciate someone is trying to do something, RBY OU is in a pathetic state.

I don't think Snorlax is broken, Reflect and paraslam immunity are; given that you cannot touch paraslam immunity, try out Reflect on/off.
This is true for Chansey as well, players who have been around before 2014 know how annoying Starmie and friends can be: Chansey is somewhat needed.

Wrap depends on the context, mainly the average speed of standard teams: if you want to ban Snorlax and Chansey, you hardly will need a Wrap ban. Wrap (on/off) is the last thing you want to check.

Sleep moves suck, but keep in mind that you need other ways to keep setuppers in check.

Smogon's tiering guidelines are meant to be used for generations with 700+ doodles (I don't consider coffins, washing machines and "Exeggutors after failing suicide attempts" to be pokemon, that's a total loss of respect to the original idea of the franchise and cow milking).
Just try to make it work.

Best of luck.

Thanks for participating to the discussion.

I see your point of view and trying to ban the least things possible makes sense; while I agree these types of changes could be enough to make the tier more playable, I still believe that this is a golden opportunity to make radical changes and ban all the things that are actually problematic. Body Slam is a move that has practically no resists (Rhydon and Gengar sort of work, but they both get smacked by coverage and don't threaten normals quickly at all), so you have to resort to sheer bulk, and Lax itself is one of the bulkiest things around. You'll never escape the 'only Snorlax checks Snorlax' circles, I think. I get the sentiment behind trying to keep as many things unbanned as possible, but I think we could really get a BIG increase in playability of this tier if we got rid of all these ridiculously strong things. If 'Starmie and friends' are problematic without Chansey, we ban Starmie and friends as well; same deal with setuppers and sleep moves. The tier is in a poor situation because we rely on broken checking broken. Remove all that is broken and we'll get something much better in the end, I think. None of the no Tauros, no Reflect, etc. individual experiments have ever panned out because small changes are not going to fix this tier, big changes could and hopefully will. At least, this is my opinion... I'll see what I can do to host tournaments to test this hypothesis

 

[marcoasd]

You'll never escape the 'only Snorlax checks Snorlax' circles, I think.

I understand what you're saying, and Rhydon can't switch into Body Slam for obvious reasons, but this is untrue as long as we're trying to change the rules.
Snorlax is hard to deal with due to Reflect and worst case scenario with Rest alone too. If this proves to be true (under whatsoever circumstances in your process of making RBY OU an healthy place), I don't see a good reason to prefer banning Snorlax over banning Rest from Lax's moveset.
You started playing in the era of untouchable Snorlax (no paraslams, Rest to get rid of TWave), but permanently para'd Snorlax is far from untouchable.

I think most previous attempts failed due to the "no complex bans" policy: fixing rby is a dirty job and you will need to get your hands seriously dirty - you won't achieve your goals while you're handcuffed.
Use any means.

I have tried the "if X proves to be problematic, I'll ban it" approach before, but it proved to result in an endless loop. I suggest you to save time, because this is a process that requires a lot of time and help.
Look for a place where the chain can be broken, and the less pokemon you ban, the better.
Hence, set your goals:

example: nerf Snorlax, Chansey + ban Sleep moves
playtest (look out for other things that might be banwhorthy)

deal with secondary issues, if you can't ban Snorlax and/or Chansey (but this is a dark hole, avoid it at all costs)

 

[Amaranth]

I have tried the "if X proves to be problematic, I'll ban it" approach before, but it proved to result in an endless loop.

I'm not sure man. When I played 3U over on PP it seemed fine to me. I think that tier is evidence that the chain does stop eventually. Obviously I'm not gonna be banning stuff all the way down to 3U, I'll be looking for the earliest spot where the chain stops, and I'm fairly confident banning sleep + wrap + around 10 mons from the top of OU at maximum should do the trick. But we'll see.

 

[marcoasd]

I'm not sure man. When I played 3U over on PP it seemed fine to me. I think that tier is evidence that the chain does stop eventually. Obviously I'm not gonna be banning stuff all the way down to 3U, I'll be looking for the earliest spot where the chain stops, and I'm fairly confident banning sleep + wrap + around 10 mons from the top of OU at maximum should do the trick. But we'll see.

If you end up with a good tier that people are happy to play, that's definitely a remarkable result - that's hard but at the same time it's possible as your example shows. That said, the dispute over "what should be considered the official OU" will never end, and changing it too much doesn't help at all reaching that goal.
If the purpose is having a RBY tier meant for SPL, I'd rather consider unbanning Mew (and limiting its moveset, obviously) than banning 10 pokemon.
Well, I talked a lot about specific cases but the summary and ultimate hint is to ban moves from movesets instead of pokemon due to both the limited number of them and the need to include trademark members.

 

[Amaranth]

If you end up with a good tier that people are happy to play, that's definitely a remarkable result - that's hard but at the same time it's possible as your example shows. That said, the dispute over "what should be considered the official OU" will never end, and changing it too much doesn't help at all reaching that goal.
If the purpose is having a RBY tier meant for SPL, I'd rather consider unbanning Mew (and limiting its moveset, obviously) than banning 10 pokemon.
Well, I talked a lot about specific cases but the summary and ultimate hint is to ban moves from movesets instead of pokemon due to both the limited number of them and the need to include trademark members.

I don't agree that there is a need to include trademark members at all. A lot of trademark members are absolutely toxic for this tier, as I've gone over in the first post. I'd rather play with no Snorlax than play with a handicapped version of it.

I also don't agree that the dispute will never end. You'll never get everyone to agree on everything, but that doesn't mean that we can't have a majority consensus on things. Plenty of people disagreed with unbanning Latias in DPP, but it happened because there was a majority consensus. There is absolutely nothing limiting us from going through these votes and processes in RBY, other than the playerbase's unwillingness to diverge from tradition. Now that we're faced with the choice between diverging and being excluded, I'll happily diverge.

 

[marcoasd]

I don't know what they'll say nor I have a direct interest - I'm not a competitor anymore, but I've seen a lot of those discussions.
All I know is that kicking pokemon like Snorlax out of the tier without even trying to save them won't help, especially considering that stating that Snorlax and Body Slam are an handicap to the tier no matter the ruleset is absolutely unproved.
Nevermind, good luck - I'd be happy to play some new version of RBY even though I don't have time/energy to be part of the process.

 

[Heika]

To begin with, I have no idea of how to fix RBY.

That said I wanna talk about your idea about making tour on the Tournament sub forum, I feel like the amount of clue on weither or not the changes tested are on a good way would be too restricted, some ideas I can come up with not to have this problem (ofc depends totally on the will of good RBYer to participate in them) would for exemple to make some roomtour on RoA with the said change on "regular" basis (understand here not too much not to lose the "regular" player base of the room) and/or to create a cord dedicated to those RBY improvment where you'd host (on regular basis too) tour/live tours to test those changes.

Sorry if this looks stupid or out of topic idk, just needed to say it

 

[Amaranth]

To begin with, I have no idea of to fix RBY.

That said I wanna talk about your idea about making tour on the Tournament sub forum, I feel like the amount of clue on weither or not the changes tested are on a good way would be too restricted, some ideas I can come up with not to have this problem (ofc depends totally on the will of good RBYer to participate in them) would for exemple to make some roomtour on RoA with the said change on "regular" basis (understand here not too much not to lose the "regular" player base of the room) and/or to create a cord dedicated to those RBY improvment where you'd host (on regular basis too) tour/live tours to test those changes.

Sorry if this looks stupid or out of topic idk, just needed to say it

A fair point; I will set up a Discord to discuss this tomorrow

 

[FriendOfMrGolem120]

I think the suggestion above from HKT is excellent and I was about to write something similar. I will try to get many of the ideas how RBY could be improved hosted in ROA (in tour nights and occasional non-scheduled tours if there is enough interest). It would be nice if we see lots of strong tournament players participating in these tours.
I personally am not sure what to think of these alternations of the RBY I know, but definitely want to try them.

 

[Heroic Troller]

I am firmly against ban chains, because the tier would turn into rby uu real fast, and at that point let's play that instead.
There are two problems that are fairly solvable via complex bans:

1- Wrap, i won't get tired of saying that this has to go into the ebin real soon, keep defending something like this with "it can miss" is so stupid that i can't believe it was used for real as an argument. You can hit moves vs Double Team or dodge ohko moves, can we try to stick as much as possible to competitive games and let rng ruin it in the old natural way? Instead of watching one guy saying, yeah i summon my Scarf Rachi and click 85% flinch Iron Head and the other waiting for that to miss?

2- Reflect on normals, if Snorlax did not have Reflect, Resting would be much harder if not impossible due to physical pressure. If Chansey didn't have Reflect, Rest itself would not be needed and we could have an offensive way to pressure it outside booms and crit haxs. It should be tested in my opinion, a world without Reflect normals could be so good and balanced, why not trying at least?

You can't ban them directly, Chansey is the main reason any pokemon with 90 speed and 100 special is not outright broken, let's keep it as it is.

 

[Prinz]

Lets play rby with tradebacks

 

[Hipmonlee]

I think you need to be clearer about what it is you are trying to achieve. Like, you've mentioned what the problems are, but not why RBY is worth saving at all. Cause like, your list of issues seems to hit every single OU pokemon except Slowbro, Rhydon and Golem.

But some things you might want to consider:
- How many of your problems are solved in Stadium? Sleep is definitely weakened dramatically. Normals still get body slam immunity, but lose rechargeless hyperbeam.
- Do tradebacks help? They certainly dont do much for the pokes you listed as problems (except LK lax, perhaps that could have its own ban).

 

[Heroic Troller]

Stadium is the worst thing in existence, the Substitute blocking Thunder Wave makes it a lame beyond imagination sub para spam

 

[Hipmonlee]

ban sub?

 

[Amaranth]

I think you need to be clearer about what it is you are trying to achieve. Like, you've mentioned what the problems are, but not why RBY is worth saving at all. Cause like, your list of issues seems to hit every single OU pokemon except Slowbro, Rhydon and Golem.

But some things you might want to consider:
- How many of your problems are solved in Stadium? Sleep is definitely weakened dramatically. Normals still get body slam immunity, but lose rechargeless hyperbeam.
- Do tradebacks help? They certainly dont do much for the pokes you listed as problems (except LK lax, perhaps that could have its own ban).

What I'm trying to achieve: following Smogon tiering standards, as every other tier on this website has done, retier RBY OU. Simple as that. Find everything that is broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy, and remove it from the tier.

Smogon tiering standards include playing on Yellow rather than arbitrarily choosing to play with spin-offs. Stadium and tradebacks both don't follow Smogon standards. Play those in your spare time, they don't matter here.

My list of issues hits a decent chunk of OU, yeah. That's because this tier has a lot of outright broken things. It tends to happen when you have TWO types that are borderline uncounterable - the tiers end up being dominated by the top 'mons of those typings. Are we gonna end up playing RBY UU? Maybe we'll play something similar, I don't know. But I'm not here to act in reference to the current tiers, as they have failed us in no uncertain terms, I am working from a completely clean slate. My only sources are a cartridge of Pokemon Yellow and Smogon's Tiering Guidelines. Everything else is part of a history that will lead the tier to removal from official tournaments if we continue refusing to diverge from it.

To the suggestions of reflect ban, I repeat what is in my main post: I don't care if Snorlax is now easier to counter with your own Snorlax by trading explosions or whatever. The matter of the fact is still that the most reliable Snorlax counter is another Snorlax. This is not healthy. I don't give a fuck if it's beatable, Mega Kangaskhan was beatable in XY if you heavily prepared for it, that's now how bans work. Snorlax is broken, we ban it, done. I've played a number of RBY lowtiers and NONE of them have anything close to the level of dominance that Snorlax, Tauros, and Chansey hold over OU. Every team of RBY OU with any hope of going anywhere starts off with FOUR slots decided (Snorlax, Tauros, Chansey, your Psychic of choice). That doesn't happen unless you have Pokemon that are only checked by themselves. And sure, you CAN play a tier where four slots are the same every game, but at some point you have to ask yourself if maybe those things that are so good you cannot do without them might be a tiny bit unbalanced. Spoiler alert, they are.

We can and should ban Chansey. To answer special attackers they invented something called a type chart, I know it's hard to remember about it when there's only two relevant types in the metagame, but it exists. Articuno and Moltres are still hard walled by any Water-type. We'll live. The only problem is - you guessed it - the Psychics, which are only answerable with more Psychics.

I'll repeat: we have a choice. Let's remove all the things that are so ridiculous you must include them in every team and try to make an RBY OU so great that the community will change its mind and continue to welcome this tier, OR keep being stubborn about your traditions and 'trademark pokemon' and get booted in two years' time. If you're fine with option two, then this initiative won't affect you anyway, right? Your Snorlax-infested tier is not making it to SPL12 in any shape, and you will be able to keep playing it on PP. This is a massive opportunity to bring all the changes necessary, let's not harm our own chances of creating something beautiful by limiting our views with complex bans and other garbage. Let's do things right, following the tiering policies that have brought success to every other tier that followed them, and let's not be afraid of banning too much. Ban everything that is broken until there are no broken things left. We know for a fact this can happen (look at the 3U example), we just have to stop being pussies about it.

 

[marcoasd]

I regret trying to give some kind of help, all I see is some unconcealed and unnecessary insults topped by unwillingness to listen to others.
You need a team of whoever wants to take part and agree on most things, no need to insult those who won't.
Also:

Candy (Starmie)
EVs: 0 Atk
IVs: 1 Atk
- Blizzard
- Psychic
- Recover
- Thunderbolt

Eggs (Chansey)
EVs: 0 Atk
IVs: 1 Atk
- Counter
- Ice Beam
- Soft-Boiled
- Thunder Wave

Cookie (Golem)
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Explosion
- Substitute

Ice Cream (Exeggutor)
- Egg Bomb
- Explosion
- Psychic
- Sleep Powder

Chocolate (Tauros)
- Blizzard
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Hyper Beam

Cake (Lapras)
- Blizzard
- Body Slam
- Confuse Ray
- Thunderbolt

 

[Heroic Troller]

I think we all agree that having Psychic and Normals so much better than any other type is ridicolous and bad, but the tier is so small that it cannot afford banning this many mons, this is not gen 7 so a gen 7 approach is not the best. If psychic is so busted (and it is) Starmie should be banned too for having an unresisted stab vs other types, and then it doesn't counter the birds. I'd love to have a type chart rby, but i suggest to bear with it, there are type charts tiers like gsc, rby simply was never meant to be one of them. As much as it sucks there is no way to force rby into fair typings, it does not have the basic tools to do so (most mons lack decent stabs, Aerodactyl, Kabutops, Drill Peck being super limited etc etc). There are two things we can do realisticly: start working on rby uu (and i'm serious there, no point starting from ou and literally ending there by chains of bans) or trying improving the actual one. Testing Reflect ban would be super quick and easy and i'd like to do that first.

Also @hip i like Hyper Beam as it is for mindgames, stadium is bad even without sub

 

[Amaranth]

I regret trying to give some kind of help, all I see is some unconcealed and unnecessary insults topped by unwillingness to listen to others.
You need a team of whoever wants to take part and agree on most things, no need to insult those who won't.

there are people who are fine with that, people who are more attached to PokémonPerfect / ladder / the tier that has been in place for years, and they don't care about what Smogon does with it, and to those people I don't have much to say - I respect your stance, keep playing the tier you want to play.

I'm using strong language because I need people who strongly believe in this. I've made it crystal clear with the above statement that I respect not wanting to hop on this ride, but I also want to make the terms of the ride crystal clear. We're not going to be half-assing things. You're free to do what you want, but to make change happen we need people who really believe in their opinions and are willing to fight for it. I'm using strong language to bring out that fight in people. If you feel offended or insulted, I'm sorry, but I don't need people who will put personal feelings ahead of the success of the project.

I think we all agree that having Psychic and Normals so much better than any other type is ridicolous and bad, but the tier is so small that it cannot afford banning this many mons, this is not gen 7 so a gen 7 approach is not the best. If psychic is so busted (and it is) Starmie should be banned too for having an unresisted stab vs other types, and then it doesn't counter the birds. I'd love to have a type chart rby, i suggest to bear with it, there are type charts tiers like gsc, rby simply was never meant to be one of them. As much as it sucks there is no way to force rby into fair typings, it does not have the basic tools to do so (most mons lack decent stabs, Aerodactyl, Kabutops, Drill Peck being super limited etc etc). There are two things we can do realisticly: start working on rby uu (and i'm serious there, no point starting from ou and literally ending there by chains of bans) or trying improving the actual one. Testing Reflect ban would be super quick and easy and i'd like to do that first.

Also @hip i like Hyper Beam as it is for mindgames, stadium is bad even without sub

PP's 3U is very close to being type chart RBY. Charizard > Venusaur > Vaporeon > Charizard is a huge thing, as are mechanics like Dugtrio > Electabuzz > Fearow > Dugtrio. Don't discard the possibility.

I agree that testing a Reflect ban would be quick and easy, maybe we can start from there and if it doesn't work out proceed with the more hardcore options. I fully believe things won't be too much better, but no harm in trying.

I think the next step (if Reflect ban fails) should still be trying out bans on Sleep, Wrap, Snorlax Tauros Chansey, Alakazam Starmie Slowbro. See what happens then. It's still very far from UU (Zapdos, Rhydon, Lapras, sleepless Exeggutor and Jynx, Tentacruel loses Wrap) and I think it's the next logical step, if the reflect ban doesn't end up helping.



Tomorrow I'll work on setting up a Discord and a tournament application for RBY no reflect + no wrap, unless any of the posts made overnight manage to change my mind again

 

[marcoasd]

You want to lead the process? That's fine: you started the thread...
At least be clear about what you're doing: you want UU to become the standard (as Troller said), using your list for OU/UU division.
If you'll put it that way, I won't even argue about Snorlax, Chansey or anything else (and I don't have any knowledge to put up any discussion regarding your metagame): if you really believe that the playerbase will accept your list, you don't need to hide this fact.

EDIT: ok, I see... GL testing with reflect banned

 

[PDC]

honestly, why bother following smogon tiering standards when the entirety of this thread is just you discussing how different rby is than every other existing tier? i think rby might benefit more from unconventional tiering approaches such as complex banning of certain moves in combination with respective pokemon than outright banning half the tier. the problems aren't going to end with banning lax / tauros / chansey / zam + mie whatever else; rby is functionally different than every other popular tier, so why try and fix it based upon those criteria? i don't know much about rby, but if you really think it needs to be fixed so drastically then fix it through a specialized tiering system instead of trying to incorporate vastly different tiering philosophy into a space which makes no sense. ban reflect on normals or something.

 

[HANTSUKI]

I just have to say some stuff: if you wanna save a tier, you don't ban 10 things and make a whole new meta, it'll just kill the tier forever.

the only things that can be done on RBY are banning Reflect and Wrap. I'll not waste time arguing why since this SPL should have made it clear and I'm on phone so fuck typing (also I always said to ban wrap since I was a rbyer, people are slow as fuck Jesus). Anything else would change stuff too much and it would kill RBY in SPL 11 already.

Also we should ban Nails from playing since he uses everything the tier has of cancerous: bull that loses to genger, amnesia reflect lax etc...the spectators do not appreciate it.

Also Jesus fuck what was wrong with the RBYers this year? So many Victreebels and Oysters...no wonder why people want to kill the tier asap. You're all at fault :unamused:

tl;dr ban reflect and wrap, everyone knows this is the thing to be done no need to argue :unamused:

(I know you'll keep arguing and ignore it but I had to say anyway)