The Forgotten Flygon

[kd24]

Flygon is one of the worst pokemon right? Outclassed completely by Garchomp. However there is one thing Flygon has going for it and that is the ability to beat Stall teams completely. Light as much as I like NidoKing Flygon interests me even more because it is blessed to have the following:

*Immune to Spikes
*Immune to Toxic Spikes
*Immune to Thunder Wave
*Immune to SandStorm
*Resistant to Stealth Rock
*Can Heal with Roost

The key point of this is that unlike Chomp and King he can avoid spikes and toxic spikes as well as heal to come back in. This is so important.

Looks to me the making of a wall-breaker. Lets see how he fares against Stall Team Common-Place...

THE SET​

Flygon: 136 speed / 220 SpA / 152 Atk
Nature: Mild
Item: Life Orb
-Fire Blast
-Draco Meteor
-Earthquake
-Hidden Power [Grass] / U-Turn / Roost

Roost is preferred.​

Fire Blast on 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarm
Defender HP: 334
Move Damage: 354 - 416
Damage: 105.99% - 124.55% (OHKO 100% of time and Imagine Forretress!)


Draco Meteor on 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor
Defender HP: 354
Move Damage: 293 - 344
Damage: 82.77% - 97.18% (OHKO most of the time with Stealth Rock up, Otherwise 2HKO)


Draco Meteor on 252 HP Hippowdon
Defender HP: 420
Move Damage: 302 - 356
Damage: 71.90% - 84.76% (2HKO even with Stealth Rock but you can Earthquake after Draco Meteor to hit any switch ins and still Kill the Hippo)


HP Grass on a Standard 252 HP Swampert
Defender HP: 404
Move Damage: 341 - 401
Damage: 84.41% - 99.26% (This can be a OHKO with Stealth Rock up but that is slight chance. Swampert can't switch in)


Draco Meteor on Same Swampert
Defender HP: 404
Move Damage: 252 - 297
Damage: 62.38% - 73.51% (Simply Draco Meteor and then kill with Earthquake. Once again swampert can not switch in)


U-Turn on 252 HP / 180 Def Bold Celebi
Defender HP: 404
Move Damage: 262 - 308
Damage: 64.85% - 76.24% (So Celebi can not switch in on any attack since a Followed up U-Turn would kill it and you also can run to a pokemon with a type advantage.)


Fire Blast on Same Celebi
Defender HP: 404
Move Damage: 265 - 312
Damage: 65.59% - 77.23% (Yeah your in trouble if you are not using U-Turn)

Earthquake on 152 HP Tentacruel
Defender HP: 339
Move Damage: 466 - 549
Damage: 137.46% - 161.95% (Well there goes soaking up Special Attacks with Tentacruel)


Earthquake on a 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Blissey
Defender HP: 714
Move Damage: 297 - 349
Damage: 41.60% - 48.88% (Ignoring the fact that no one uses Bold max hp max def Blissey anymore this is a 2HKO with stealth Rock up)

Draco Meteor on 252 HP 128 Def 128 Special Defense Impish Dusknoir
Defender HP: 294
Move Damage: 162 - 191
Damage: 55.10% - 64.97% (So that is a 2HKO with stealth Rock up)


Earthquake on that same Dusknoir
Defender HP: 294
Move Damage: 106 - 125
Damage: 36.05% - 42.52% (So DM and EQ provides a 2HKO on both defensive and special dusknoirs apparently)


Draco Meteor on 252 HP / 252 SpD Careful Spiritomb
Defender HP: 304
Move Damage: 159 - 187
Damage: 52.30% - 61.51% (Uh-Oh it just so happens you are not running any defensive EVS...)


Earthquake on same Spiritomb
Defender HP: 304
Move Damage: 155 - 182
Damage: 50.99% - 59.87% (So that basically means with Stealth Rock up 2 EQ's are a guarenteed 2HKO assuming it just hit minimum damage and even without them it can be. Draco Meteor with Earthquake will be a 2HKO as well)


This is Earthquake on a Standard 236 HP 76 Def Jirachi
Defender HP: 400
Move Damage: 279 - 328
Damage: 69.75% - 82.00% (Easy 2HKO)

Since Fire Blast can still 2HKO Celebi and Draco Meteor + Earthquake 2HKO's Swampert, roost is a great option as it allows flyong to heal, something Garchomp and NidoKing can not

I left out some pokemon like RestTalk Heatran because it is obvious Earthquake would OHKO. I also left out pokemon life forretress and bronzong because fire blast should easily 1HKO or 2HKO respectively and I forgot the calcs ._.


Okay I am not saying "USE FLYGON". I am just showing that flygon has the ability to 2HKO pretty much every pokemon used in stall teams.

I just wish some more people would consider Flygon as an option especially if you have trouble with stall teams. He can also be a suprise factor and can really wear down a team fast.

 

[Sudo]

Very interesting. I've used Flygon extensively before, and I can also assure he makes a very good lead as well; hopefully this will open some people's eyes to his usefulness. Two questions, though:

1: I assume the set carries Life Orb?

2: Whose damage calculator did you use?

 

[kd24]

MetalKids and yes it does use Life Orb

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Not to rain on your parade or anything but this has been the standard set for Flygon since D/P started. The EV spread here is different though (better imo). If anything this should just be a project for the analysis workshop.

You also claim that:

However there is one thing Flygon has going for it and that is the ability to beat Stall teams completely.

That is just completely wrong. It's not going to do anything after the first time it uses Draco Meteor unless it can finish them off with an unboosted EQ from a wimpy 100 base atk. I don't see how something that takes Life Orb damage while having to switch out every time you use its best attack is capable of doing what you say. With that, you could add Roost so that you don't have to sack something or "predict" to bring it in because of its mediocre 80/80/80 defenses and LO damage that adds up quite fast.

I hate to say it but all those people who say Garchomp "outclasses" Flygon are right. Garchomp can use the same set and be much more effective with Swords Dance over U-turn, and its higher speed and atk. Flygon only has four things over Garchomp: Levitate, U-turn, Roost and Quick Attack. Unfortunately, none of those things are really good enough to be as good as Garchomp is although it can fill a unique niche as well as getting style points for being green.

 

[speedwobbles225]

Couldnt Garchomp do the exact same thing without levitate except better?

 

[kamikaen]

At the beginning, you suggest 5 ways Flygon is better than Light's Nidoking, but... Nidoking can do 4/5 of them, all but the spikes immunity. Flygon does oust Nidoking in all stats but Special Atack (by 5), and Hp (by 1), though, so that could be a good reason to use Flygon > Nidoking. But a more appropriate comparison would be Flygon vs. Garchomp... while it can't use U-turn for Celebi (or in general), an Hp Grass set would just about 100% outclass a Flygon with the same set, which it arguably already does... I understand that people want to find a use for Flygon, but unless you need Levitate/U-turn, pass for Garchomp. You should just use a modified Chain Chomp... Garchomp could turn any of those "possible 2HKO with SR"s into "2HKO without entry hazards", using EQ, beat it in speed, and match it in special attacks, on top of superior defenses.

This from someone who uses a Flygon lead... yeah, no one ever expects U-turn. >.<

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

Flygon's stats with this spread:

HP: 301
Atk: 274
Def: 176
SpA: 276
SpD: 196
Spe: 270

Garchomp's stats with this spread:

HP: 357
Atk: 334
Def: 203
SpA: 276
SpD: 206
Spe: 274

I only bolded the stats that beat Flygon. The only one that doesn't happens to be the same for each.

Determine for yourself if that is worth losing an Earthquake/Spikes immunity and U-turn. I believe it's safe to assume that most would gladly give them up for the additional Atk, defenses, and Spe, as well as Sand Veil.

Besides, the one thing that arguably differentiates Flygon from Garchomp the most is Roost. Any set without Roost usually results in a weaker Garchomp. (speaking from no experience with Flygon or Garchomp, by the way)

 

[Cynthia]

Flygon also gets Quick Attack, while not a particualrly powerful move at least it's some sort of priority.

 

[Kijin]

I know I'm just theorymoning this, but since U-Turn is doing roughly the same damage that any of your other attacks would do, wouldn't you benefit from having Roost over U-Turn for the sake of longevity, or at least as a replacement option for the attack?
I mean, you get the damage and the switch in as well as avoiding Pursuit, but you keep your wall-breaker around much longer when you already hit neutral on everything + the benefit of having STAB EQ/Earth Power in your ensemble. Otherwise, it just seems like you're building an inferior Garchomp w/ Spikes/Ground Immunity and U-Turn.

edit: also sand veil, lol.

 

[Miao]

In advance, the main thing flygon had going for it was its insane speed over other dragons, and it enjoyed a nice niche there. Its not going to be garchomp, so its wrong to make it look like one.

If you're carrying several special moves, you should skip out on earthquake entirely and go for earth power instead. You can also go for draco meteor this way, and get two stab moves, while still emphasizing one stat and not crippling S.Atk so much.

You lose out on giving U-Turn more kick this way, but it still works as a nice fast switch. The more I stare at this the more I think I'd rather just make it a choice scarfer, with U-Turn as a way to scout for attacks and possible switches. Choice specs are also an option of course ^-~. This also allows you to keep your HP-Grass, of course. You can also go with Giga Drain, which does the same thing at the cost of 10 power or less if you can't hit perfect (and acts as life regain too).

(A note for on wifi, you have to get your trapinch up to 65 first if you want earth power, there's no way to breed for it, oh noes!)

 

[Markie]

This is a well thought out set, and flygon is actually a very proficient wallbreaker when you combine it with jirachi. They cover each others weaknesses to the point, and you can take advantage of the wishpassing. You could probably edit this into the OP; it looks like flygon is going to require wish support or healing of some variety. If you plan for it to take on stall teams, such support is going to help nullify damage from life orb and toxic, along with other forms of damage. If you're not using HP grass or U-turn swampert and celebi will make short work of you.

Although a well thought out post, consider the fact that most, if not all stall teams will utilise a fast offensive pokemon that might be able to get the jump on flygon with ease. If lucario, especially on packing the surprise HP ice switches in, flygon may well be surprised KO'd, depending on your speed (I'm fairly certain it can outspeed you). Another important factor to consider is that Garchomp is popular as an offensive pokemon, and is important to consider that many, many teams will have a counter to garchomp, or a tactic to beat it. One of the more important reasons behind the lack of use; I've heard flygon being described as a "watered down garchomp", any strategy that you can use to beat garchomp can translate over to flygon in numerous cases, unless you plan to toxistall it out with toxic spikes.

Couldnt Garchomp do the exact same thing without levitate except better?

In theory, yes. Except for U-Turn and levitate, garchomp pulls this off just as well, if not better. I can imagine using this set to bypass the species clause or for a ground restance.

Nice set, but I can't be sure. A friend of mine has about 3 or 4 stall teams, I'll test this against him.

 

[Kijin]

If you're not using HP grass or U-turn swampert and celebi will make short work of you.

HP Grass for Swampert? Yes.
U-Turn for Celebi? In the above calculations, Fire Blast does the same damage as U-Turn.

In theory, yes. Except for U-Turn and levitate, garchomp pulls this off just as well, if not better. I can imagine using this set to bypass the species clause or for a ground restance.

If that's the case, why not find a way to work Roost in there? Especially if the set focuses more on Special Attack and ignores attack, you effectively create a Special Garchomp w/ a recovery move in place of Sub/Hax. But this could lead to "well, why not use Mix or Specsmence instead? Same key immunities (but neutral on Electric instead of immune)." That I don't have an answer for, aside from the benefit of 100% accurate STAB special ground move and the flexibility of Life Orb over a Choice Item (with Roost to sap up damage/recoil). Generally, you're either outclassed by Garchomp on the mixed set or outgunned aside from the stab Earth Power on Mix/Specsmence. This leaves us with U-Turn as the only beneficial aspect of Wallbreaker/LO Mix/Specialgon. I don't really know what to say.

 

[Anti]

In advance, the main thing flygon had going for it was its insane speed over other dragons, and it enjoyed a nice niche there.

No it wasn't, Flygon's just as fast as Salamence. What Flygon had going for it in Advance was its QuakeSlide resistance, which was way more valuble in Advance (where it could [and would] counter Tyranitar very well).

 

[Shinryu]

I'm gonna suggest maybe ditching some of the SpA EVs so that you just barely guarantee an OHKO on Skarmory with FB, as you're gonna 2HKO most of the other threats with whatever moves anyways if you lessen the SpA, and maybe bump up the Spe, maybe HP or Atk.

 

[Miao]

No it wasn't, Flygon's just as fast as Salamence. What Flygon had going for it in Advance was its QuakeSlide resistance, which was way more valuble in Advance (where it could [and would] counter Tyranitar very well).

Hmmm... you're right. I always thought of it as the "speedy dragon" for some oddball reason...

 

[TDS]

it was also the dragon with a stabbed EQ

 

[Mekkah]

Indeed, the only reason to use this one is Roost, because otherwise you are running a weaker Chain Chomp.

 

[Anti]

Well as the OP stated, the factor of being immune to Toxic Spikes and regular Spikes is important because an it's anti stall team moveset.

Just a note to you KD, Rash > Mild on Flygon. It's still got it's sexy QuakeSlide resist (rather, EdgeQuake now) which shouldn't not be hampered.

 

[Crowler]

I've personally used three different Flygons in three different teams. I'm fairly sure that the majority of teams encountered on Wi-Fi boast one of their own, with a similar, if not the same moveset. The only exception to this I've seen was a Flygon boasting Giga Drain, which can be effective against Water Pokemon, however with part Dragon type, those shouldn't be bothering a Flygon much.
This thread seems like pretty old news, sorry.

 

[cim]

Uh, your set is completely outclassed by Garchomp. Geez, if you're going to use Flygon use Screech on a shuffle team, at least that's something Garchomp can't do. Or Roost or something. Not a set that Garchomp can copy EXACTLY except for U-Turn. And this is coming from a die-hard Flygon fan.

Being immune to (Toxic) Spikes isn't really all that important for a stallbreaker like this, as you're already killing yourself with Life Orb it's obvious you aren't sticking around for very long.

If you think Dragon move / Fire Move / Ground Move / Grass move from something with Levitate is enough to "beat stall teams completely", then Salamence would be raping teams left and right with the same exact set. Granted he's weak to SR, but he's, you know, better at this.

Again, Flygon is really cool and has a few nitches he can fill, but using him as a worse Nidoking, Garchomp, Salamence is pretty dumb.

 

[TUskate]

I really think Roost needs to be the emphasis on this set. That is the biggest advantage I see over CrushKing and ChainChomp. U-turn isn't necessary because Fire Blast hits Celebi nicely. For my own Flygon I bred I run FB/Draco Meter/EQ/Roost. I'm also agreeing with Anti, Rash is definitely the preferred nature. Rock/Ground resist/immune is awesome.

 

[TDS]

I actually run Draco Meteor/EQ/Uturn/Roost with Diesel's shiny flygon XD
It works great with a lot of steel types. Metagross, Jirachi, Bronzong, and Scizor to name a few

 

[Aipom]

Roost and U turn are indeed pluses over Garchomp,
But It's still not seeing play.
Why? It's stats pale in comparison to Chomp's
and even with it's good typing and movepool, it's still a 4x weak ice with levitate. woot. levitate:/

 

[moogleking]

Giga Drain could go in place of HP Grass, I'll imagine he heals a fair bit aginst Hippo and Swampert.

 

[stormtrooper]

u do realize garchomp could run the exact same same set of fire blast,draco meoteor,hp grass, earthquake