For context, BW OU is testing Reuniclus right now:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bw-ou-reuniclus-suspect-test.3745426/
I feel like if Reuniclus gets banned, I don't think Spikes will get the attention it deserves. A while back I made a post in the SPL discussion thread which made some players acknowledge that banning Spikes could be a good idea, but it phased out quickly as strong players like SoulWind and McMeghan disagreed with the idea and the council has already voiced that Spikes will not be touched. This left me unsatisfied because I really feel like Spikes should be considered seriously because I think there are some serious merits to acting on it over Reuniclus.
Throughout the history of BW OU the most consistent teams have always been bulky sand teams that abuse Spikes, and hazard stacking is a big reason why these teams are so consistent compared to their counterparts. The tier’s identity is the broken checks broken dynamic and the weather war dynamic. Hazard control, however, is present in literally every gen where Spikes is available. Even in GSC where you can only put one layer, or SS or SV where hazard removal is so widely available and there's an item to grant you immunity to it, Spikes is still a force to be reckoned with. So, to me, BW OU without Spikes does not tarnish the tier’s identity. But if the perception of BW OU to the public is weather wars, strong moves being thrown, etc, that’s not really what BW OU is right now. This perceived identity does not match the actual gameplay, which I think is relevant to discuss considering all the decisions we took to get here.
In a broad sense, a Spikes ban directly nerfs the two most dominant play styles directly, sand and rain. Both styles almost always run spike stacking as part of their strategy so they immediately get nerfed right off the bat. Stall teams also lose a large source of damage because they can no longer accumulate passive damage as easily. These are the most immediate impacts to the meta I can think of.
Looking at Soulwind's and McMeghan's posts, where they both voice an opposition to a spikes ban because they will limit skill expression, we can observe polar opposite reasons. Soulwind believes the meta will be too offensive and McMeghan believes the meta will be too defensive. I think the truth is that the meta will not heavily lean in either direction. Spikes are extremely limiting in team building because offensive and defensive mons will get outlasted and worn down by the magic guard and spike immune abusers. On many sand and rain teams in the past, there were far more options for pokemon slots but these options faded away as teams got more optimized, especially after ABR and BKC built the god slug 6 and showed just how powerful this strategy is. A Spikes ban would free up many of these pokemon that faded away on both sides of the spectrum. For every Slowbro, Tangrowth, Jirachi or Chansey that no longer has to worry about Spikes instantly crippling up to 25% of their health, there is a Garchomp, Conkeldurr, Breloom and Scizor that now also don’t have to worry about it. Of course there is no way to know which direction the metagame will tilt towards, but this is also true for a Reuniclus ban.
To talk about the impact of a Reuniclus ban, Reuniclus’s presence alone dissuades the use of a ton of pokemon and strategies that would otherwise see more usage. This leads me to the next part in regards to what metagame we are aiming for. I think a Reuniclus ban instead causes similar effects but not very large ones. As history seems to always show I firmly believe sand balance would remain the strongest playstyle. Spikes are simply still too good at keeping many offensive mons in check and sand would adapt in how they deal with threats. I see Rain immediately becoming stronger because a lot of the threats in Rain become much better without Reuniclus. Tentacruel (blanked by Reuniclus), Politoed (who right now is like an encore bot), Keldeo (outlasted by Reuniclus), Gyarados (if Thunder), Toxicroak (another blanked mon), and more all lose one of their biggest enemy. However this will not prevent sand from adapting and remaining on top. Even with rain at its strongest points in history, sand was always there to balance it out and I don’t see this ever changing. Hyper offense teams likely won’t change much in viability because they weren't as bothered by Reuniclus but things like Breloom and the ice-weak do get better. Stall for sure gets a good nerf because every good stall team has a Reuniclus so I do not know how they would adapt without their most important piece, but honestly I don't think anyone cares too much about stalls viability in the meta.
Currently, the metagame is slightly more defensively oriented at the highest level. This is not a bad thing but I personally disagree with how SoulWind and McMeghan view Spikes as a tool that allows the highest level of skill expression. There is obviously skill in positioning and long term battles but, to be honest, it is grossly overrated. For one, Spikes do not reward long term thinking because if you have Spikes on your team you just aim to get them up. There are always turns in a battle that you will have to get Spikes for free. Alot of the sand spike mirrors are a loop of recover spamming which yeah there is some skill but its also mindless and honestly just fucking boring. The presence of Excadrill as the go to measure to combat this style like McMeghan mentioned is more of a crutch to prevent people from going insane in having to play as many sand mirrors as they would have without Excadrill being in the tier. When I pick teams for a tournament the dilemma of not using sand and piloting an objectively worse playstyle for the sake of diversifying my choices to avoid being counter teamed is really annoying, but at least Excadrill exists so I can sigh in relief about not having to play a 300 turn borefest like I had to here: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-749836. I enjoyed being complimented after this game but playing this out was very unfun. I clicked recover and managed pp until I got a chance to fish, that's really it. This, to me, is the worst aspect of the tier because pokemon is supposed to be fun. The best way to play it is a balance of offense and defense where two players attempt to outplay each other. In bulky sand mirror matchups like the game above I don't get the feeling that there is much outplaying going on, it’s really just healing and waiting for the opponent to make mistakes or an opportunity to get RNG and capitalize on it because you know the lines better.
Battles like this one between BKC and McMeghan https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-346061 are the peak of skill expression. Both teams are both more offensive in nature but none of them would be called mindless hyper offense. There are clear defensive structures there to support the offense. There skill expression in positioning yourself to get your threats in to do damage while preventing your opponent from doing so. This is how most battles should be. It is fun, and skill expression isn't sacrificed for the sake of having fun. The identity of and appeal of the tier is a more offensive meta that required good positioning to outplay your opponents and win. This however is not what current BW is, and to me, a Spikes ban would certainly bring this back.
This leads us to the comparison: Spikes ban vs Reuniclus ban. I am happy that the council is actively making relevant changes to the tier. For years, my frustration with the tier was that there were clear problems but silly things like assist and baton pass were being dealt with instead of the more important issues. For the record, I now don’t believe gems should have been banned and I think the last very important ban was the sleep ban (my god was that broken). My thoughts are obviously based on theoretical impacts to the meta, but I don't think that should take away from the validity of them (which brings us back to tiering philosophy once again but that’s another topic). We ban things to remove the problematic aspects of the meta to improve it into a better one and that is theoretical in nature. My opinion is that when deciding bans we should always tackle the most broken aspect of the tier and I believe that to be Spikes much more than Reuniclus. Reuniclus to me can be compared to the most broken aspects of something like CM Clefable in later gens, in that it is seemingly impossible to kill and will eventually sweep you. However, unlike fairy gen Clefable, a lot of that unkillable factor is due to Spikes either damaging its checks and counters in the battle, or dissuading the use of things that could be good counters without spikes being present in the builder. This is also true for the other magic guard mons like Alakazam and Clefable (as a sidenote this thing is fucking impossible to switch into, that beam twave knock coverage makes me feel like I need my own clef to stop it) but they are not immediate sweeping threats to a whole team like Reuniclus is. Many of the most historically broken pokemon lose a lot of their edge with a Spikes ban. Latios, Keldeo, Reuniclus, Volcarona and even Cloyster become way easier to check without needing to go out of your way to handle Spikes first. It's clear to me that Reuniclus along with many other brokens is a byproduct of the brokenness of Spikes. Therefore I believe that a Spikes ban is better than a Reuniclus ban. It feels to me like Reuniclus is a scapegoat to Spikes because when you think of what is owning your team more than anything it's hard to forget the feeling of getting owned by Reuniclus clicking CM and you insta losing instead of the Spikes that let it accomplish that. In terms of what is most realistic and easy to see the effects in the future, no Reuniclus is definitely easier to theorize on. But I think a Reuniclus ban, although having a large impact and some of the similar effects of a Spikes ban, will not result in a very different or much improved meta.
That leads us to the next problem: timing. BWPL starts in mid august this year, which does not allow for at least some testing of a spikeless meta. This means that if any major changes occur many of the rounds of BW Cup and the playoffs of classic would be played with a completely new meta (I hope I don't need to explain why this is a headache for everyone). Additionally there is also the problem that top players and even newer strong players would not take a spike-less meta slot seriously because there isn't any incentive to care. It would end up as a sideshow to the sideshow that BWPL already is. With SPL being the main goal of the new players to reach, and the destination established players already have, unless a lot of money was raised for a tour or something like that, I can't see any serious top level experimentation happening. New players want to try hard in the main metagame to have a leg up on their competitors on why they should be drafted over them for spl and established players are already established. Even if this is completely untrue and everyone cared 100% and tried 100% then there is still only one tour for a limited number of people to experiment. The circuit does not have enough room for old gens to make huge changes like a Reuniclus or Spikes ban with some confidence of an improved tier. If Reuniclus gets banned then there is not much reason to explore a Spikes less meta. Unless Spikes really become impossible to deal with with the loss of the best answer to it then I doubt we ever see any attention come to them (and this, this is the nightmare scenario. It turns Reuniclus into the BW OU Jesus who died for Spikes's sins).
These are my general thoughts and I would love to answer questions and hear other peoples opinions on the matter. I have played this tier since I was a middle school kid and have a lot of love for the tier and the generation. BW OU can be really fun and we should do more to promote and grow the community. I think top players being more vocal can do alot of for the improvement and growth of the tier and community. We are heading in the right direction regardless of whether or not Reuniclus, Spikes, or something else get banned.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bw-ou-reuniclus-suspect-test.3745426/
I feel like if Reuniclus gets banned, I don't think Spikes will get the attention it deserves. A while back I made a post in the SPL discussion thread which made some players acknowledge that banning Spikes could be a good idea, but it phased out quickly as strong players like SoulWind and McMeghan disagreed with the idea and the council has already voiced that Spikes will not be touched. This left me unsatisfied because I really feel like Spikes should be considered seriously because I think there are some serious merits to acting on it over Reuniclus.
Throughout the history of BW OU the most consistent teams have always been bulky sand teams that abuse Spikes, and hazard stacking is a big reason why these teams are so consistent compared to their counterparts. The tier’s identity is the broken checks broken dynamic and the weather war dynamic. Hazard control, however, is present in literally every gen where Spikes is available. Even in GSC where you can only put one layer, or SS or SV where hazard removal is so widely available and there's an item to grant you immunity to it, Spikes is still a force to be reckoned with. So, to me, BW OU without Spikes does not tarnish the tier’s identity. But if the perception of BW OU to the public is weather wars, strong moves being thrown, etc, that’s not really what BW OU is right now. This perceived identity does not match the actual gameplay, which I think is relevant to discuss considering all the decisions we took to get here.
In a broad sense, a Spikes ban directly nerfs the two most dominant play styles directly, sand and rain. Both styles almost always run spike stacking as part of their strategy so they immediately get nerfed right off the bat. Stall teams also lose a large source of damage because they can no longer accumulate passive damage as easily. These are the most immediate impacts to the meta I can think of.
Looking at Soulwind's and McMeghan's posts, where they both voice an opposition to a spikes ban because they will limit skill expression, we can observe polar opposite reasons. Soulwind believes the meta will be too offensive and McMeghan believes the meta will be too defensive. I think the truth is that the meta will not heavily lean in either direction. Spikes are extremely limiting in team building because offensive and defensive mons will get outlasted and worn down by the magic guard and spike immune abusers. On many sand and rain teams in the past, there were far more options for pokemon slots but these options faded away as teams got more optimized, especially after ABR and BKC built the god slug 6 and showed just how powerful this strategy is. A Spikes ban would free up many of these pokemon that faded away on both sides of the spectrum. For every Slowbro, Tangrowth, Jirachi or Chansey that no longer has to worry about Spikes instantly crippling up to 25% of their health, there is a Garchomp, Conkeldurr, Breloom and Scizor that now also don’t have to worry about it. Of course there is no way to know which direction the metagame will tilt towards, but this is also true for a Reuniclus ban.
To talk about the impact of a Reuniclus ban, Reuniclus’s presence alone dissuades the use of a ton of pokemon and strategies that would otherwise see more usage. This leads me to the next part in regards to what metagame we are aiming for. I think a Reuniclus ban instead causes similar effects but not very large ones. As history seems to always show I firmly believe sand balance would remain the strongest playstyle. Spikes are simply still too good at keeping many offensive mons in check and sand would adapt in how they deal with threats. I see Rain immediately becoming stronger because a lot of the threats in Rain become much better without Reuniclus. Tentacruel (blanked by Reuniclus), Politoed (who right now is like an encore bot), Keldeo (outlasted by Reuniclus), Gyarados (if Thunder), Toxicroak (another blanked mon), and more all lose one of their biggest enemy. However this will not prevent sand from adapting and remaining on top. Even with rain at its strongest points in history, sand was always there to balance it out and I don’t see this ever changing. Hyper offense teams likely won’t change much in viability because they weren't as bothered by Reuniclus but things like Breloom and the ice-weak do get better. Stall for sure gets a good nerf because every good stall team has a Reuniclus so I do not know how they would adapt without their most important piece, but honestly I don't think anyone cares too much about stalls viability in the meta.
Currently, the metagame is slightly more defensively oriented at the highest level. This is not a bad thing but I personally disagree with how SoulWind and McMeghan view Spikes as a tool that allows the highest level of skill expression. There is obviously skill in positioning and long term battles but, to be honest, it is grossly overrated. For one, Spikes do not reward long term thinking because if you have Spikes on your team you just aim to get them up. There are always turns in a battle that you will have to get Spikes for free. Alot of the sand spike mirrors are a loop of recover spamming which yeah there is some skill but its also mindless and honestly just fucking boring. The presence of Excadrill as the go to measure to combat this style like McMeghan mentioned is more of a crutch to prevent people from going insane in having to play as many sand mirrors as they would have without Excadrill being in the tier. When I pick teams for a tournament the dilemma of not using sand and piloting an objectively worse playstyle for the sake of diversifying my choices to avoid being counter teamed is really annoying, but at least Excadrill exists so I can sigh in relief about not having to play a 300 turn borefest like I had to here: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-749836. I enjoyed being complimented after this game but playing this out was very unfun. I clicked recover and managed pp until I got a chance to fish, that's really it. This, to me, is the worst aspect of the tier because pokemon is supposed to be fun. The best way to play it is a balance of offense and defense where two players attempt to outplay each other. In bulky sand mirror matchups like the game above I don't get the feeling that there is much outplaying going on, it’s really just healing and waiting for the opponent to make mistakes or an opportunity to get RNG and capitalize on it because you know the lines better.
Battles like this one between BKC and McMeghan https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-346061 are the peak of skill expression. Both teams are both more offensive in nature but none of them would be called mindless hyper offense. There are clear defensive structures there to support the offense. There skill expression in positioning yourself to get your threats in to do damage while preventing your opponent from doing so. This is how most battles should be. It is fun, and skill expression isn't sacrificed for the sake of having fun. The identity of and appeal of the tier is a more offensive meta that required good positioning to outplay your opponents and win. This however is not what current BW is, and to me, a Spikes ban would certainly bring this back.
This leads us to the comparison: Spikes ban vs Reuniclus ban. I am happy that the council is actively making relevant changes to the tier. For years, my frustration with the tier was that there were clear problems but silly things like assist and baton pass were being dealt with instead of the more important issues. For the record, I now don’t believe gems should have been banned and I think the last very important ban was the sleep ban (my god was that broken). My thoughts are obviously based on theoretical impacts to the meta, but I don't think that should take away from the validity of them (which brings us back to tiering philosophy once again but that’s another topic). We ban things to remove the problematic aspects of the meta to improve it into a better one and that is theoretical in nature. My opinion is that when deciding bans we should always tackle the most broken aspect of the tier and I believe that to be Spikes much more than Reuniclus. Reuniclus to me can be compared to the most broken aspects of something like CM Clefable in later gens, in that it is seemingly impossible to kill and will eventually sweep you. However, unlike fairy gen Clefable, a lot of that unkillable factor is due to Spikes either damaging its checks and counters in the battle, or dissuading the use of things that could be good counters without spikes being present in the builder. This is also true for the other magic guard mons like Alakazam and Clefable (as a sidenote this thing is fucking impossible to switch into, that beam twave knock coverage makes me feel like I need my own clef to stop it) but they are not immediate sweeping threats to a whole team like Reuniclus is. Many of the most historically broken pokemon lose a lot of their edge with a Spikes ban. Latios, Keldeo, Reuniclus, Volcarona and even Cloyster become way easier to check without needing to go out of your way to handle Spikes first. It's clear to me that Reuniclus along with many other brokens is a byproduct of the brokenness of Spikes. Therefore I believe that a Spikes ban is better than a Reuniclus ban. It feels to me like Reuniclus is a scapegoat to Spikes because when you think of what is owning your team more than anything it's hard to forget the feeling of getting owned by Reuniclus clicking CM and you insta losing instead of the Spikes that let it accomplish that. In terms of what is most realistic and easy to see the effects in the future, no Reuniclus is definitely easier to theorize on. But I think a Reuniclus ban, although having a large impact and some of the similar effects of a Spikes ban, will not result in a very different or much improved meta.
That leads us to the next problem: timing. BWPL starts in mid august this year, which does not allow for at least some testing of a spikeless meta. This means that if any major changes occur many of the rounds of BW Cup and the playoffs of classic would be played with a completely new meta (I hope I don't need to explain why this is a headache for everyone). Additionally there is also the problem that top players and even newer strong players would not take a spike-less meta slot seriously because there isn't any incentive to care. It would end up as a sideshow to the sideshow that BWPL already is. With SPL being the main goal of the new players to reach, and the destination established players already have, unless a lot of money was raised for a tour or something like that, I can't see any serious top level experimentation happening. New players want to try hard in the main metagame to have a leg up on their competitors on why they should be drafted over them for spl and established players are already established. Even if this is completely untrue and everyone cared 100% and tried 100% then there is still only one tour for a limited number of people to experiment. The circuit does not have enough room for old gens to make huge changes like a Reuniclus or Spikes ban with some confidence of an improved tier. If Reuniclus gets banned then there is not much reason to explore a Spikes less meta. Unless Spikes really become impossible to deal with with the loss of the best answer to it then I doubt we ever see any attention come to them (and this, this is the nightmare scenario. It turns Reuniclus into the BW OU Jesus who died for Spikes's sins).
These are my general thoughts and I would love to answer questions and hear other peoples opinions on the matter. I have played this tier since I was a middle school kid and have a lot of love for the tier and the generation. BW OU can be really fun and we should do more to promote and grow the community. I think top players being more vocal can do alot of for the improvement and growth of the tier and community. We are heading in the right direction regardless of whether or not Reuniclus, Spikes, or something else get banned.
