Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]

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Prior Terastallization Tiering Discussion | Initial Terastallization Suspect Test

Terastallization remained fully legal in SV OU after a suspect early this generation; this suspect was among the most popular and close suspects of all time, making Terastallization a recurring tiering topic. This thread will be used to discuss Terastallization's tiering as a second suspect becomes a possibility. Please note that this is not a guarantee at the moment, but rather an acknowledgement that further discussion is necessary and a suspect is possible.

We promised to look back into Terastallization after the release of Pokemon HOME regardless of the first suspect's verdict prior. To follow suit, in our second tiering survey since the drop of HOME, we asked our playerbase if they believed any tiering action was needed. Their response was the following:

CmDuh8w.png


Overall, 950 players believed tiering action is necessary while 574 players believed tiering action is not necessary. However, we tend to pay the most attention to the "qualified" demographic, which consists of players who perform well on the ladder, qualify for recent suspect requirements, and/or participate in official tournaments or the final rounds of circuit tournaments. Of 136 qualified players who responded, 88 supported action on Terastallization while 48 opposed action -- this is approximately 65% support.

This data is absolutely not binding as Google Forms are an unofficial way of collecting data, the metagame continues to evolve, and the question was purposefully made vague to potentially segue into a larger discussion, such as this one. However, we do believe this data is probable cause enough to at least open a topic on the matter for the time being without publicly committing to anything yet.

Here are some things to discuss and parameters for discussion:
  • Fringe options such as a singular Terastallization captain and only allowing STAB Terastallization types did not receive enough support last time and nothing has changed to make them worthy of discussing more this time. They are off the table as well as anything else that was pitched initially that never gained any traction.
  • Banning Terastallization outright is an option that can be discussed.
    • Banning of a generation's core mechanic is something that should be taken very seriously and require clear evidence, but it is absolutely not being dismissed.
  • Restricting Terastallization via disclosing Terastallization types at Team Preview, which is a component of the official formats, is an option that can be discussed.
    • We are aware that many people doubt the impact this may have on mitigating any issues and people who are both in favor of or opposed to this option are encouraged to share their point-of-view.
  • The status quo of keeping Terastallization fully legal and unrestricted is an option that can be discussed.
  • Tera Blast is a move that has led directly to the bans of Volcarona, Regieleki, and Espathra; it is not deemed overly problematic in the current format, but people can discuss it if they deem it worthwhile to.
  • We are not interested in using the National Dex suspect test(s) as a reference point at this time.
  • People are free to discuss if they think a suspect should occur, what format the suspect should be if it is to be held, and anything else that they find appropriate within reason. Use your best judgement as anything out of line may be subject to deletion or infraction.
Please share your thoughts on Terastallization and the best way to proceed in this thread. Thank you.
 
Tera is obviously broken in the sense that it forces guesswork and occasionally rewards losing players by making sub optimal plays (aka Tera flying a steel type vs Great Tusk, and winning).

But also it's not so outrageously broken like Dynamax. It's also been in the meta for so long that it feels unjustified to ban it now. It a generation defining mechanism is to be banned in should be done a few months in, not nearly one year post release.

Dynamax is broken but fun, which imo is a good description of competitive Pokémon as a whole.

Edit: revealing Tera types at team preview, similar to some VGC events, seems like a fair compromise.
 
I think the main thing I would stress is that a purely binary ban vote would never pass a suspect in OU right now.

From the player survey, there was ~60% majority in favor of some kind of restriction. That is a wide coalition of people who want Tera nuked out of orbit and those who would fight to preserve it in some form. There is that solid percentage that would vote to keep Tera unrestricted under any circumstances. In order to have a pro ban majority, whatever restrictions are pushed forward need to keep a winning coalition. You can't have pro ban firebrands scaring off voters who would have favored some kind of restriction. With how close the voting was last time, I would not be shocked if at least a few people were spooked from voting restriction with how loud and dogmatic the pro ban side was.

I just hope this time, the people that loathe Tera can push for a consensus compromise. If Team Preview or banning Tera Blast is not enough, congratulations. You get to bask in the schadenfreude of it all and knowing you were right. Any vote Tera now is not set in stone. If Tera is still broken after restricting it...than we look at handling it from there.

Personally, I do want Tera restricted. I think that the mechanic is going to only become more dangerous as more threats pour in with DLC. I think it also has shown that there are more mons broken or borderline broken with Tera around. In Ubers, I would say Zamazenta Crowned, Urshifu Rapid Strike, Annihilape, Volcarona, and Regieleki for example were in some way pushed over the edge by Tera. There were other factors for almost all of them sure, but Tera was a massive one. Right now in OU, there are plenty of mons people complain about that are aided by Tera like Kingambit, Enamorus, Iron Valiant, Dragonite, Sneasler, Gholdengo, and Zamazenta.

If I had to choose, I would hit both Tera Blast and enable Team Preview. I think this would be the healthiest long term way to handle Tera in OU. You hit some of the guesswork and you make sure its harder for mons to muscle through their checks. I think this would make Tera less problematic in the long term, while keeping some of the fun that Tera adds to the tier.
 
More of a Rands main than an OU main here, so I might not be the most qualified to talk about whether Tera is healthy for the metagame in its current state and whether Tera Preview would help. However, I've been lurking around here ever since the start of the gen, and I wanted to comment on the structure of the vote, specifically 1. suspecting Tera Blast separately and 2. using Ranked-Choice voting for ban vs preview vs no restriction.

1. Suspect Tera Blast separately
As it currently stands, there could be 5 possible outcomes of a suspect test: A. no action, B. tera preview, C. ban tera blast, D. both B and C, and E. outright ban. That's a lot of options to effectively structure a vote around, not to mention the controversy around some of the options (do we really want to ban a rather borderline generational mechanic? might tera preview cause nearly as many problems as it solves?). On the other hand, Tera Blast seems to be more widely seen as rather high in cheese to skill ratio. Giving every Pokemon a fairly strong coverage move of any type they desire has the potential to flip every matchup and get past their natural checks in a single turn. Should voters prefer so, banning Tera Blast (with a 60% supermajority) would not greatly disrupt the mechanic (leaving most of its benefits and drawbacks remaining) while also helping to reduce the unhealthy side of variance brought by Tera. Regieleki, Volcarona, and probably Espathra could also be freed, while letting the meta settle for a month before moving on to the next stage. If Tera Blast is not banned, we could go to the next stage more immediately:

2. Use Ranked-Choice voting for Outright Ban vs Tera Preview vs No Restriction
With the outcome of Tera Blast settled, it would be time to move on to the bigger issue at hand. I just don't see a strong reason to not use ranked choice voting, especially considering that these may be the only three options, other fringe ideas having been eliminated in the first tera suspect. We saw there, and twice in Natdex OU, and yet again in Natdex Ubers, where Tera just barely misses the supermajority required to be banned. What if many of the no ban voters were afraid to vote ban because they preferred preview > no restriction > ban? There's no need to have voters play a guessing game and not express their full preferences. (In the case that No Restriction is one of the last two choices standing, Action would need 60% for a ban, and if No Restriction is eliminated in the first round of ranked choice, the preferred form of Action would need 50%+1 of the remaining votes).
Yes, I know Tera Preview might not solve the problem, and a potential Tera Preview win could result in further action being needed later on if the meta gets worse. It would be probably be best to have a ladder for that so we can stop theorymonning so much, but idk if tier leaders find that feasible.

Feel free to debate my proposals and point out flaws in my reasoning, but there's no point in attacking me personally since I don't really care that much what the outcome ends up being. It's just annoying to see a supermajority of players be unhappy about the outcome of yet another Tera suspect because the voting format wasn't set up optimally.

edit: kinda sniped by the above saying the same thing, I didn't think the thread would open this early
 
Oh look, thread is open now. Anywho.

Background of myself before I delve into my own little shpiel about Tera: I play mostly on cart vs random players. I've dabbled a fair bit on ladder in OU and UU, and even tried to get reqs for a couple of suspects. I'm effectively a low elo bandit whom many "good" players would consider a bad player. I theorymon and team build more than I care to ladder for points. Played since Gen 3, battled since Gen 4, skipped Gen 7 & 8 until BDSP came around, and have been a part of SV's developing meta games since SV dropped. (God, remember when Flutter and Bundle were still legal? What a wild time that was.)

Onto the actual topic at hand, Tera. Personally, I'm very heavily pro-Tera. Previously, I would have so much of an issue with specifically Tera Normal Extreme Speed and Tera Normal Boomburst. Such heavy-powered attacks that were often easy to boost. Since then, my tune's changed a fair bit after finally gitting gud and learning to play around ESpeed and Boombursts properly, and finding a consistent team for me.
Tera as a whole is a mechanic I wholly enjoy. It allow for what would normally be mediocre Pokemon to actually stand up for a change, and can even be a quick sucker punch to your opponent if your Tera is something they wouldn't expect. If Tera gets axed, then it will have rippling effects not only in OU, but in every other tier below it as well. A lot of Pokemon go from potent/potential threats to just "meh" or worse. My boy Skeledirge would be one of those Pokemon.

When it comes to suspect testing Tera, as another user suggested in the OU forum, I'd like to see it done in three phases;
Phase 1: Tera Preview/Limited Tera. Run the test for a short time, ideally on its own ladder, then move to Phase 2.
Phase 2: Tera banned. Run this test for the same length of time as Phase 1 so that players can have a good idea of how the game feels between full Tera vs restricted Tera vs no Tera. I guarantee you that there will be a major eye-opening experience between these that may change some people's tunes.
Phase 3: Voting phase. Once people have their reqs, or whatever is really necessary for the vote, let the voting period begin.

One of the major things I find about most people who play the suspect test reqs is that they don't actually use the Pokemon/item/whatever in question during the reqs grind period, and then cast their vote from there. I don't feel like this is necessarily a fair thing for the subject being testing, but there's also no way to enforce it, outside of this specific suspect test.
Keep in mind that when I say this, I am in no way meaning that "Oh, these Pokemon that got banned weren't broken at all!" Merely just that a lot of people who run for reqs play teams WITHOUT using that Pokemon, so they only have their "playing against it" bias without "playing with it" experience to match it.

I'm not really going to debate much here, but it'd be nice to actually have this tri-phase system for this, because restricting and banned Tera will guaranteed have rippling effects on the whole of the SV metagames, and the tiers will be shaken to their cores because of it.
 
I'm neutral on if tera stays, leaves or gets restricted, so I'll just discuss things related to the suspect test itself:

Pro-ban people, if you want tera to have a chance to be banned your best bet is to allow for people to vote for a tera preview restriction even if you think it's gonna do jack shit. I do not believe theres enough pro-ban players to get a 60% majority over everyone who's on the spectrum of "tera balanced", "tera balanced but id be ok with testing a team preview" and "tera unbalanced but i'd rather vote no ban than ban" if the vote were to be a binary decision.

Hell, your best bet is probably to give up on trying to get a ban now, rally for team preview and then go "see we told you!!!" if it doesn't work. I find it extremely unlikely a pure ban will be able to win. Smogon is an extremely loud echo chamber, but the NDOU votes showed how much bigger the scope of this suspect test will be (i know the requirements and communities are different, but I still think it's a warning of what a binary vote will cause).

The order of preferences to me.
No ban vs Tera preview binary vote followed by a re-suspect later on > suspect test with team preview, then vote on no change/preview/ban tera > no ban vs ban

Or maybe I'm wrong and there'll be a pro-ban sweep in the most epic way possible. Smogons like that sometimes
 
There's no way of knowing if a meta will improve or drop in quality unless we see for ourselves what SV OU looks like without tera.

This was the biggest mistake of the first tera suspect as I believe anything on the pro-action side was strictly theorymoning that SV OU would improve/have the current banlist of mons be healthier in the environment its gone. When suspect test happen, usually its a ladder with the pokemon banned (if the suspect is to ban it) or with it unbanned (if its to inject something in) and let the community play on that ladder and form their own opinion on whether they hated that meta or believed that meta to be better then it was previously. With tera this was not the case (for a lot of test this gen it wasn't, idk when this precedent was set but its not a good thing to continue doing), it was barely even a suspect test and more of a survey using the ladder the community already played on for a month, either they hated the game since day 1 or were incredibly optimistic to try it a bit longer cause they don't have a visual comparison to say "well in SV tera suspect X wasn't broke, X was still broken so nothing changes, 50/50s were reduced, etc etc"

This suspect test HAS to test the hypothetic of what the game is like WITHOUT tera, not ladder for reqs on the exact same ladder for the exact same game, nothing is learned from that its strictly earning the right to passage of the voting thread, no one is testing anything they're just playing the same game and voting however they felt the past 6 months. If you want players to shift their views or have less biased opinions, from either side, it has to be done this way.. it would at least lay to rest most of the theorymoning that the game is better off with or without tera since we can say we played in that universe.

____

EDIT my personal thoughts on the restrictions, from the pro-ban side;

I still don't believe restriction solves anything, mons broken before do not suddenly become unbroken cause they still have the exact kit they had before even with preview.. preview doesn't suddenly make espathra's tera typing more managable, more predictable? Sure... its still going to 6-0 you anyways so that knowledge is useless. RN there's very few pokemon running more than 1 type of tera cause 1 tera type is usually all they need to cover their asses (looking at 2 OU dragons really on the fence with their 1 tera sweeping builds), kingambit is the next in line running multiple teras and when kingambit is the last pokemon left it doesn't matter much if you know its tera cause it can still just not press it or it already beats the matchups left.

Tera Blast would be a safer alternative but it would be the very definition of a 'nerf' to make something more healthy. It'd be like banning speed boost to nerf blaziken and baton pass even though yanmega can't use it in any broken capacity. Similarly banning tera blast just nerfs some such as volcarona, eleki, and espathra, but there isn't enough evidence to suggest with what we have now tera blast fixes the issues.. it doesn't solve Garganacl swapping types to be more annoying, or kingambit from swapping types for defensive reasons to reverse sweep a team with sucker punch. A lot of the current OU tera abusers that are warranting a tera suspect do not run tera blast typically or its just extra cheese when they do. IMO, there's too many casualties to lower tiers and fine OU pokemon by removing tera blast, and although removing it would bring some favorites down, it doesn't do anything meaningful it feels like a compromise just for 3 pokemon to be OU and pretend tera doesn't break pokemon to ubers, even then, its a stretch to say it affects any of the current ubers as volcarona could very well drop with tera unrestricted if the survey results match the suspect results, espathra likely will be banned regardless cause fairy dazzling gleam was still really brain dead to setup with, and eleki is the sole mon utterly destroyed by losing tera blast. There just isn't enough justification for it.
 
Last edited:
RoyalDispenser said:
There's no way of knowing if a meta will improve or drop in quality unless we see for ourselves what SV OU looks like without tera.

This was the biggest mistake of the first tera suspect as I believe anything on the pro-action side was strictly theorymoning that SV OU would improve/have the current banlist of mons be healthier in the environment its gone. When suspect test happen, usually its a ladder with the pokemon banned (if the suspect is to ban it) or with it unbanned (if its to inject something in) and let the community play on that ladder and form their own opinion on whether they hated that meta or believed that meta to be better then it was previously. With tera this was not the case (for a lot of test this gen it wasn't, idk when this precedent was set but its not a good thing to continue doing), it was barely even a suspect test and more of a survey using the ladder the community already played on for a month, either they hated the game since day 1 or were incredibly optimistic to try it a bit longer cause they don't have a visual comparison to say "well in SV tera suspect X wasn't broke, X was still broken so nothing changes, 50/50s were reduced, etc etc"

This suspect test HAS to test the hypothetic of what the game is like WITHOUT tera, not ladder for reqs on the exact same ladder for the exact same game, nothing is learned from that its strictly earning the right to passage of the voting thread, no one is testing anything they're just playing the same game and voting however they felt the past 6 months. If you want players to shift their views or have less biased opinions, from either side, it has to be done this way.. it would at least lay to rest most of the theorymoning that the game is better off with or without tera since we can say we played in that universe.
Click to expand...
i'm pro-tera (with preview), but yeah, hard agree. technically, both the pro-ban and anti-ban sides in any suspect test are theorymonning until an actual ban takes place, which is why i believe that a suspect ladder should always temporarily ban the subject of the suspect and i have no idea why they stopped doing that. if you don't change anything during the test, why do we even call it a test? what are we testing?
 
Since it's the latest popular topic in the general metagame discussion, here's some thoughts on the assorted Ubers mons w/r/t their potential in OU with the four main options (unrestricted tera, tera preview, Tera Blast ban, tera ban), along with the interactions with the most supported OU suspect, Kingambit:

Unrestricted tera: Potential for a Volcarona drop, which has a fair degree of support currently, while nothing else has a realistic chance to return. Kingambit is almost assuredly suspected in the immediate aftermath of any tera suspect that returns no restrictions, as well.

Tera Preview: Theoretically Annihilape could be balanced, as knowing its type makes the matchup into stall less oppressive and makes it much harder to fish for Rage Fist stacks off resisted hits, but it's still a "feels bad" mon so isn't likely to gather support for a retest. Volcarona could get a suspect to be allowed back into OU, since there's already support for it and preview would weaken its matchup moth qualities. While this might not stave off a Kingambit suspect, it does significantly decrease the chance it actually gets banned.

Tera Blast: Regieleki drops all the way from Ubers to UU, Volcarona drops down into OU, Espathra might to drop to OU, though it still has Dazzling Gleam to hit Dark types, so the big loss is Fighting coverage. Kingambit isn't directly affected, but Volcarona dropping does increase counterplay it faces, so while it likely still gets suspected, it does have a better chance to survive.

Tera Ban: Regieleki and Volcarona drop, as above, but Espathra has a good chance to remain Ubers; while it really loves losing its Psychic typing, it also loves the inability for any of the Unaware mons to check it, with Skeledirge and Dondozo lacking the raw bulk and Clodsire being hit super effectively by Stored Power. Kingambit faces no immediate suspect test.

Other Ubers: Really, it's only those three (Regieleki, Volcarona, and Espathra) who have any chance at dropping prior to DLC; terastalization wasn't the reason for Annihilape (that was his matchup into stall) or Palafin (also his matchup into stall) bans, nor Flutter Mane or Mega Delibird Iron Bundle stop having outrageously good STAB combos.
 
Personally, I'm neutral on tera and unlike last gen, I'm not as well versed with this gen as I was with the Crown Tundra. I won't pretend that I know too much. What I will say is I think we should split the votes into three phases to get the most satisfactory outcome, whatever that may be

First Phase
The first phase would be a vote between take action or leave it alone. This will be the only two choices and nothing else. This is to decide once and for all what the whole playerbase wants and not just those who are active on the forums

Second Phase - Take Action
As just mentioned, we will only jump into the second phase if the first phase voting is that something needs to be done about tera. If no action is voted on, i guess that's the end of that. But if it's not, here we are. Now, the choices here are either restrict or full ban. Choices shouldn't have to be explained

Third Phase - Restrict
Like the second one, things would only reach here if in the second phase, restriction is chosen. However, I dunno what the choices would be here. From what I've read, which isn't that much tbh, it's either team preview or get rid of tera blast. If there are more than two options available, I think it would be best to adjust from that 60% majority thing to make it easier

----

My reasons for this is I think the last tera suspect had too many choices. I think that was what ultimately skewed the favor in no action being taken last suspect. Basically, my idea is by splitting the final vote into these phases, the choices will be limited thus making it easier to get that 60% voting rate to act upon a choice, unlike the last suspect where the other options fucked everything up. It might be possible that in the last suspect team preview would have won but I still think there was too many choices for that 60% 40% voting rate thing, whatever that's called. Though I guess we'd have to figure out what would be the best restrictions first

Also, I could be misunderstanding the previous suspect voting instructions because really, these multiple choices are making my head spin
 
Red Raven said:
Personally, I'm neutral on tera and unlike last gen, I'm not as well versed with this gen as I was with the Crown Tundra. I won't pretend that I know too much. What I will say is I think we should split the votes into three phases to get the most satisfactory outcome, whatever that may be

First Phase
The first phase would be a vote between take action or leave it alone. This will be the only two choices and nothing else. This is to decide once and for all what the whole playerbase wants and not just those who are active on the forums

Second Phase - Take Action
As just mentioned, we will only jump into the second phase if the first phase voting is that something needs to be done about tera. If no action is voted on, i guess that's the end of that. But if it's not, here we are. Now, the choices here are either restrict or full ban. Choices shouldn't have to be explained

Third Phase - Restrict
Like the second one, things would only reach here if in the second phase, restriction is chosen. However, I dunno what the choices would be here. From what I've read, which isn't that much tbh, it's either team preview or get rid of tera blast. If there are more than two options available, I think it would be best to adjust from that 60% majority thing to make it easier

----

My reasons for this is I think the last tera suspect had too many choices. I think that was what ultimately skewed the favor in no action being taken last suspect. Basically, my idea is by splitting the final vote into these phases, the choices will be limited thus making it easier to get that 60% voting rate to act upon a choice, unlike the last suspect where the other options fucked everything up. It might be possible that in the last suspect team preview would have won but I still think there was too many choices for that 60% 40% voting rate thing, whatever that's called. Though I guess we'd have to figure out what would be the best restrictions first

Also, I could be misunderstanding the previous suspect voting instructions because really, these multiple choices are making my head spin
Click to expand...

Last suspect test was take action or leave it alone.

Basically you vote either;

Take action - specify nerf/ban

Leave it alone - won the majority out of the two options anyways so the multiple choice of take action didn't even matter.

Suspect Test said:
The first question will be "Do you want tiering action on Terastallization?" with the possible responses being "Action" or "No action" (keep as is) -- if you want a ban or restriction on Terastallization to take place, vote for the former option of "Action". If you want the status quo to remain, vote for the latter option of "No Action". In order for any tiering action to occur, over 60% of responses must be in favor of tiering action! This question is incredibly straightforward, but please forum PM me or Ruft if you have any questions at any time.
Click to expand...
 
RoyalDispenser said:
Last suspect test was take action or leave it alone.

Basically you either;

Take action - specify nerf/ban

Leave it alone - won the majority out of the two options anyways so the multiple choice of take action didn't even matter.
Click to expand...

Wait, really? Never mind then. I guess I'm just dumb for not understanding it properly
 
Tera isn't broken nor uncompetitive. If it was, it would be banned by now.

Tera, as it is now, simply makes a meta less consistent, too complex, and in general, less healthy.
-
"Banning of a generation's core mechanic is something that should be taken very seriously and require clear evidence, but it is absolutely not being dismissed."
There isn't and won't be "clear evidence" or like I said, Tera would be banned already.

It's clear Tera will never be fully banned.
It's also clear Tera will be restricted.

It is mathematically impossible for a full ban or no restrictions to ever be implemented.

Let's say 50% are anti-tera and 50% are pro-tera
Out of the anti-tera, half of those just want it restricted, and not banned.
Out of the pro-tera, half want to keep it, but with restrictions.
Totals:
50% Restrictions
25% No Restrictions
25% Full Ban

Rough numbers, but this is an illustration of how unlikely a full ban or no restrictions would be.
In reality, Full Ban and No Restriction have far less support than 25% of the playerbase.

It's time for a compromise.
-
The upcoming suspect should not not be black & white, and Full Ban/No Restriction should be taken off the table.

Full Ban will never happen, and we've already shown Restriction has the super majority.

Qualified players should vote on 3 options:
  • Team Preview
  • Ban Tera Blast
  • Team Preview and Tera Blast
Team Preview pros heavily outweigh any cons.
This changes the game from what they will Tera to when they will Tera, which would patch up a lot of issues Tera causes.

Banning Tera Blast would give us back Leki and Volc, and stop mons from gaining offensive coverage options they were never meant to have.

Even with these restrictions in place, Tera remains almost exactly the same, and pro-tera side still gets 99% of what they want and barely anything changes for them.
We simply need a more polished and competitive version of Tera, balanced towards 6v6 Smogon OU Singles.
-
There is no need for this thread to be marred by full ban/no restrictions discourse, as it always reaches an impasse, and neither outcome is likely.
With no major support for either of these proposals, any discussion would be quite literally pointless, and frankly disruptive.

Players trying to get a pure ban/no ban vote are just 'no restriction' players in disguise, being disingenuous.
They know that 'no ban' has no chance of winning that matchup, and thus they can keep Tera unrestricted, which has been shown to be a fringe opinion.
It would be a mistake to allow this minority to get what they want, just as it would be a mistake for the 'full ban' minority to get what they want.
-
There is no need to fumble another Tera suspect with a convoluted mess of options that split up the votes, or confuse players, or tilt the suspect towards one outcome or the other.

If we must, we can have a formal Restriction vs No Restriction suspect test, and then from there vote on the 3 above options.
Personally, this seems like a waste of time, as the recent survey was enough data for me, but something for council to consider I guess- but Restriction is obviously the outcome, and from there we should vote on the only 2 restrictions that make sense for everyone.

Thanks for reading!
eevee-pikachu.gif
 
LoseToRU? said:
Tera isn't broken nor uncompetitive. If it was, it would be banned by now.

Tera, as it is now, simply makes a meta less consistent, too complex, and in general, less healthy.
-
"Banning of a generation's core mechanic is something that should be taken very seriously and require clear evidence, but it is absolutely not being dismissed."
There isn't and won't be "clear evidence" or like I said, Tera would be banned already.

It's clear Tera will never be fully banned.
It's also clear Tera will be restricted.

It is mathematically impossible for a full ban or no restrictions to ever be implemented.

Let's say 50% are anti-tera and 50% are pro-tera
Out of the anti-tera, half of those just want it restricted, and not banned.
Out of the pro-tera, half want to keep it, but with restrictions.
Totals:
50% Restrictions
25% No Restrictions
25% Full Ban

Rough numbers, but this is an illustration of how unlikely a full ban or no restrictions would be.
In reality, Full Ban and No Restriction have far less support than 25% of the playerbase.

It's time for a compromise.
-
The upcoming suspect should not not be black & white, and Full Ban/No Restriction should be taken off the table.

Full Ban will never happen, and we've already shown Restriction has the super majority.

Qualified players should vote on 3 options:
  • Team Preview
  • Ban Tera Blast
  • Team Preview and Tera Blast
Click to expand...
I think its pretty clear that no restriction could feasibly win, 35% of the qualified playerbase voted in favour of it in the last survey which really isn't that far off the votes needed to keep status quo. I would guess that the two most popular options in a split vote (ie keep unrestricted tera, tera preview, ban tera blast) would be unrestricted tera and tera preview so it makes most sense to me to vote on that first and have a separate vote on tera blast, assuming an outright ban isn't on the table. There's no way you can have a suspect vote where maintaining the status quo isn't on the table. In an ideal world I think people who want an outright ban would also be able to vote for that but I think its clear that an outright ban won't happen and including it accomplishes nothing. Binary choice > ranked choice imo.
 
I may post something more in depth later on, but for now I’ll make a point I made in the last thread:

Unpredictability ≠ randomness. Nothing about Tera is random, because a human is making every choice involved, from choosing what type their Pokémon should have to when they use it in a match. I’d argue it’s perceived randomness, due to a lack of information. Tera preview lessens this perceived randomness and helps ease predictions. Personally I lean closer to leaving it unrestricted but I wouldn’t be opposed at all to Tera preview or a Tera blast ban.

My preference would be to use Tera preview for the duration of the suspect test so that the community can get a feel for whether or not it would help with any of the negative aspects of Tera or not.
 
I'm going to make a longer post tomorrow most likely (I need to get some sleep, running on empty right now and I still have to finish an assignment), but I'll summarize my views for right now in this smaller post -

I am absolutely 100% AGAINST the idea of a complete Terastallization ban; if a full ban was going to happen, it would have happened earlier in the generation and I wholeheartedly believe that a complete ban would be nothing but detrimental to the state of SV OU both in the short term and long term.

However, I am all for the other main listed options -

- Tera Unrestricted
- Tera Preview
- Tera Blast Ban
- Tera Preview + Tera Blast Ban

Frankly, whatever we need to do to keep Terastallization in the metagame in the healthiest manner possible is what we should be doing. This is the most diverse, creativity-enabling, and team-building-friendly OU metagame I've actively participated in since I started playing competitive Pokemon near the tail-end of Generation 4 over a decade ago.

I believe that the best way to conduct this Tera suspect would be to do what kosecant and several other people have suggested - have Tera Preview be enabled and the main focus of the suspect - to see how the meta and player base as a whole react to it, whether it eases perceived issues with Terastallization, and whether or not it would make a significant impact in the way particular threats use Terastallization. I feel this would allow the player base as a whole to make a more codified and unified decision when voting.
 
Regarding what a potential suspect test should look like: I believe simpler is better, even as multiple options are going to be explored. Make it a ranked choice vote between three options: no restriction, tera preview, and tera ban. Have it be ranked 1-3 for the voting player, and then apply traditional ranked choice vote rules--if there isn't enough support to get someone's #1 choice through, then their vote defaults to their #2 choice. This would prevent some of the concern voters had during the initial tera suspect, where they voted for action/no action first and then voted for what action should be; iirc there were people who said they would've preferred tera preview, but voted for no action because they didn't want to risk a full ban and would've preferred no action over that. By having it be three distinct choices, those people could, for example, list it as 1) tera preview, 2) no restriction, 3) full ban, and be confident that there was no way their vote would go towards a full ban.

Banning tera blast is a very silly idea, so I don't see why that's being seriously entertained. It's very obvious that tera blast doesn't break the vast majority of mons it's on, even including mons that might be banned because tera (e.g Espartha still has dazzling gleam, Annihilape VERY rarely used tera blast). Regieleki and Volcarona being broken by the move does not meet the necessary threshold for banning it when it's learned by quite nearly every other mon in the game.

I also fail to see how suspecting with a no tera ladder will actually give credible experience to the topic. Tera plays such an integral part in the tier that it being removed would drastically shake up the meta, and it would not have nearly enough time to settle during the suspect test. I feel as if judging an incredibly unstable and volatile meta as the barometer for what no tera would look like is a fundamentally flawed idea. Any action should be based on whether this current metagame is healthy, not whether a fresh metagame that's given no time to stabilize is healthy.

OU needs tera preview btw. Or just ban it, that's fine too. No action is proving to not work out very well.
 
Morkal said:
However, I am all for the other main listed options -

- Tera Unrestricted
- Tera Preview
- Tera Blast Ban
- Tera Preview + Tera Blast Ban
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I basically said that in the OU Forum, but it still remains true. You don't have many options when keeping Tera balanced while not being a mind game. You could (like i said in the OU Forum):

- Restrict it to STAB Tera
OR
- Put Tera type for each member in Team Preview and ONLY the Tera types

Tera Blast isnt really the issue here it's Tera itself. Without Terastallization, Tera Blast is basically a stronger Hidden Power Normal that has a Psystrike defense check.

Then again, you could ban Tera - but I think it brings variety to this metagame
 
Im pro tera and have been playing throughout the entirely of sv and have gotten games done my due diligence and tried to see if I could see tera in a broken light like some people keep claiming to be obvious but I still find it rather balanced.

Team preview I dont really feel strongly about this either way but I feel like giving people infomation right off the bat is not really great and decreases some degree of skill on both players sides and removes a key element of mons figuring out opposing sets items and moves is a huge element of the game and I feel like people need to think of tera in that regard like yes it could be the worse possible tera or the greatest unset to ever exist but its not different to some the stuff youll see on the ladder or very rarely tours in generations without tera.

Tera blast So I just wanted to talk about the tera blast ban option and Im gonna be real im not entirely opposed to it but I'd rather it remain in the metagame granted there are notable users of tera blast like sandyshocks, iron moth and kinggambit which slot it in as coverage but as a move you gain stab on its very lacking most of the time you'd rather just increase mons stabs or coverage moves bp like thunderbolt tera electric valilant, shadow ball ghost valilant or tera ground baxcalibur and tera water waking wake I find myself using that more then just sloting tera blast to blow past things and throughout all the games I've played both on ladder and in tours I've never really thought yes tera blast that is the issue I understand people dislike it because it gives some mons coverage they lack but removing it seem silly and makes things that have a bunch of random coverage moves valiant, great tusk and hoopa stronger on preview.

Overall id rather have a vote that includes includes restrictions with full ban and no ban as options as well similar to the last vote we had.
 
HeartfulKitty said:
Regarding what a potential suspect test should look like: I believe simpler is better, even as multiple options are going to be explored. Make it a ranked choice vote between three options: no restriction, tera preview, and tera ban. Have it be ranked 1-3 for the voting player, and then apply traditional ranked choice vote rules--if there isn't enough support to get someone's #1 choice through, then their vote defaults to their #2 choice. This would prevent some of the concern voters had during the initial tera suspect, where they voted for action/no action first and then voted for what action should be; iirc there were people who said they would've preferred tera preview, but voted for no action because they didn't want to risk a full ban and would've preferred no action over that. By having it be three distinct choices, those people could, for example, list it as 1) tera preview, 2) no restriction, 3) full ban, and be confident that there was no way their vote would go towards a full ban.
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This is probably the best way to do this. We've seen it very often shared that the majority of people want restrictions on Tera, but if presented a binary choice of ban or unretricted Tera, they will choose the latter. If we really have unrestricted Tera all the way through until the DLC meta settles, this divide in the playerbase and the heat around the discussion of Tera will get worse, and the possibility of a THIRD suspect test on Tera will just be a sad thing to witness. A binary vote between ban and no ban will 100% lead to Tera staying unbanned, something very easily provable with the last test's results and the common sentiment shared here, and should not even be considered if the interest is actually discussing the possibility of change.

Ultimately, while I personally really hate Tera, I do want to see if it's possible to keep around in some form that maybe makes me not hate it. However, if restricting Tera with preview doesn't actually do much to curb its negative effects, I don't want this to end up like Baton Pass where we keep nerfing it in complex increments before finally giving in and banning it longer after the generation's shelf life. That's why this talk of banning Tera Blast worries me. I think the play now is to try restricting Tera with preview, seeing what that actually helps with, and if it ends up that Tera is still too volatile with it, maybe start thinking about if it needs to go or not.

Edit: Forgot to put in my actual thoughts on Tera Preview. My prediction is it will solve literally nothing and just discourage niche counterpick Tera types, while not at all affecting the consistently strong ones that knowing about doesn't help you deal with at all, i.e. Tera Flying Kingambit or Tera Ground Enamorus-I. Tera Preview was a pretty neat idea when it was first thought of, but I feel like the more I and other people come to understand how to use Tera and what parts of Tera make it strong, the less it feels like Tera Preview would change anything about what's currently existing in this meta.
 
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I've been very interested in Tera Blast being looked at. I'm open to a full ban and it felt very clear to me that something needed to change about Tera, but I like many others have my doubts that preview would fix the unpredictability and challenge in the builder that Tera presents and am concerned about issues it could bring like the ones Maverick Shooters brought up in the PR thread. I had never really put it together that Tera Blast specifically adds so much to the issue of Tera allowing any Pokémon to nuke what would normally be its counter once per battle until reading others' thoughts in these threads, and personally feel refreshed to be turned onto this restriction that will help with what's likely this mechanic's biggest issue without having to fully nuke the mechanic, which isn't a popular idea. I'm now very interested in seeing Tera blast go.

Is Tera a problem in its current state? I'll answer the question with a couple other questions. Should every Pokémon, once per battle, have the ability to resist a hit from its counter and kill the counter with a super effective hit? Does weighing the possibility of this potentially happening any time a Pokémon is sent out make for a good competitive metagame?

I felt for a while that removing Tera Blast and also implementing Tera Preview would be too complex a restriction on Tera to justify keeping the rest of the mechanic. I am still kind of of the opinion that restricting it in multiple ways is basically designing a new mechanic and not "preserving Tera." But if it's what it takes to bring this mechanic to a balanced state and satisfy the parties that don't want to see it gone, then I'm happy with that compromise. I'm really holding out hope that a tera blast restriction makes a big difference.

I want to close this post by pivoting a bit and addressing the arguments "we should keep tera to keep the generation unique from the others" and "if you want a game with no Tera play another generation." Other generations should not be a factor in this discussion at all. Not all of smogon or showdown's playerbase are interested in playing old ass metagames from 15 years ago with 25 active players. A lot of us, me included, want to be playing the largest, most current metagame. We should strive for the largest and most current metagame to be as balanced as possible. Keeping something unbalanced as is in the metagame for the sake of making it different from a fringe outdated metagame is completely asinine.
 
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Terastalization should be preview and anything still broken with preview should be banned to ubers.

The main reason I support tera preview is because it allows midgrounds to actually be possible. Take Kingambit for example. Great Tusk can midground Gambit with a common move if it isn't flying, and tera flying gambit can be checked with other methods.

Preview also eliminates the tera-type guessing game completely. You can still terastalize or not terastalize, However, with tera preview you gain the ability to identify midground for the tera types and position yourself correctly. Nothing can midground no tera + all possible types, while it's much easier to midground 2 possibilities.

I oppose terastal ban because I hold the philosophy that anything broken by tera should be treated as a broken pokemon. Pro tera-ban people always bring up the same few examples (Volcarona, Regieleki, Kingambit) which to me shows that the Pokemon are the problem, not terastal and the broken Pokemon should be banned instead.
 
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