Pokémon Talonflame

[Bold School]

Talonflame

Type:

Base stats: 78 / 81 / 71 / 74 / 69 / 126 (495)

Abilities: Gale Wings | Flame Body

Gale Wings: If this pokemon is at full HP, its flying moves have their priority increased by +1.
Flame Body: 30% burn chance when a pokemon makes contact with it. (There are much better pokrmon for this ability.)

Notable moves:

• Hurricane
• Tera Blast
• Acrobatics
• Brave Bird
• Roost
• Tailwind
• Defog
• Swords Dance
• Flame Charge
• Overheat
• Flare Blitz
• Fire Blast
• Flamethrower
• Weather Ball
• Solar Beam
• U-Turn
• Quick Attack
• Protect

Pros:

• High base power Flying priority moves.
• Perhaps the best rain sweeper
• Fast
• Can use usually move before other priority abusers due to speed tier
• Tera Blast makes it less dependent on things like weather and ensures it can at least get 80 BP adaptability level STAB priority in any full health situation
• Can be either physical or special, since neither attacking stat is that much different from the other.
• Can sometimes function ok without full health priority due to speed tier.

Cons:

• Wrecked by stealth rock in every way imaginable.
• Cannot use flying priority at less than full health
• Very frail
• Weak attacking stats requires a lot of supplemental power for offensive sets
• Requires a lot of hazard support or heavy duty boots that limit boosting already limited offensive power
• Needs to watch out for priority that is greater than +1 such as First Impression, Extreme Speed, and Fake Out.

Tera Type potential:

• Flying for the super priority nukes

(I honestly don't know why you would use anything else on this pokemon.)

Potential sets:

Rain Sweeper

Talonflame @ Choice Specs
Ability: Gale Wings
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Tera Blast/Solar Beam
- Overheat
- Weather Ball

This is probably the best set. Perfect accuracy 120 adaptability level priority STAB +Choice Specs power is insane. Tera Blast makes it so that you can still fire off fairly strong 80 BP double Flying STAB priority even outside the rain. Special priority is also a lot less common than physical priority, so this is likely a lot better.

Overheat was included to hit steel types. It might seem somewhat paradoxical on a rain team, but you can occasionally catch your opponent off guard. Also, the threat of it will make them reluctant to switch in steel types on the first turn. Weather Ball in the rain can target rock types and has some versatility in other weather.

Acrobatics Proc

Talonflame @ Mirror Herb / Heavy Duty Boots / No Item
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics/Tera Blast
- Protect/Fly
- Flare Blitz/Roost
- Swords Dance

Talonflame has a marginally better attack stat than special attack stat. Acrobatics, without the item, has only slightly less base power than Hurricane. The issue is you can't mindlessly pair it with Choice Band because you need no item for max BP. To get around this, Talonflame needs to get into a situation where it has no item and a boost. Swords Dance is the best way to reliably increase attack power. The problem is you need a turn to set up and a switch in with no hazards.

It's a bit gimmicky, but Mirror Herb could give you a decent ability to set up and consume your item on the switch in. You could run another consumable item like Grassy Seed, but this provides little benefit. You could run no item. However, I would not recommend this as the presence of Tera Blast can allow this set to function ok enough with an item where you probably shouldn't run no item.

Edit: Added more item choices to reflect different approaches to the physical set. No item is for pure Acrobatics spam and Boots are for Tera Blast with a Swords Dance set up, though this isn't priority. Protect is use for scouting. Fly is sort of an awkward hybrid move for those who want to use a Flying move on an item set next to Acrobatics, but it's not the best from my testing.

Defog Support

Talonflame @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Defog
- Overheat
- Roost/Taunt/Will-O-Wisp/U-Turn
- Taunt/Roost/Will-O-Wisp/Tail Wind

I changed this set a bit from a general support to a pure Defogger based on feedack. I agree that Talonflame's ability to beat Gholdengo as a Defogger earns a niche in OU by that alone. I've also become convinced Flame Body is the more optimal ability here, partly because of the comments left by everyone, but also partly because I reexamined speed tiers. Talonflame's speed is high enough compared to most other pokemon where it likely doesn't need priority Defog. The different ability also makes U-turn less risky since you don't have to be afraid of chip from things like Rough Skin or Rocky Helmet.

Edit: Added more moves and combinations after suggestions. Changed ability and set focus.

Tailwind Suicide Lead

Talonflame @ Focus Sash
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Tailwind
- Taunt
- Flare Blitz/Brave Bird
- U-turn/Brave Bird

Added after the suggestion for this set. I don't know if Talonflame is the best Tailwind setter, even as a suicide lead, but it makes some sense to set it up and then recoil suicide or U-turn out. It's at least worth exploring.
...

Any feedback other ideas? Comment below.

Edit: It turns out Flying Tera Blast doesn't count as priority with Gale Wings. This makes no sense, but we have to deal with it all the same. I changed Tera Blast to Fly on the physical set and I'm not quite sure what to do with the special set.

 

[Eeveeto]

I can accept first set, since it has some surprise value, though it does need huge support to not die from Rocks.

Second set absolutely needs Heavy Duty Boots, or Hatterene (already niche Mon), hazards are way too strong.

Third set needs to be like this: Defog, Flare Blitz (needed to consistently threaten Goldengho), Roost and one of Wow, Taunt, Tailwind, U-Turn or Brave Bird, U-Turn probably being the most splashable move there. Of course, nature needs to be changed to Jolly and ability to Flame Body.

If you want a purely Tailwind set it should have Sash as item and use Tailwind, Taunt and 2 of Brave Bird, Flare Blitz and U-Turn. Obviously with Max Attack and speed, Adamant is probably best nature here.

 

[Bold School]

First of all, thankyou for the feedback.

Second set absolutely needs Heavy Duty Boots, or Hatterene (already niche Mon), hazards are way too strong.

The problem is this greatly limits the power. Acrobatics doesn't work as well with an item. On the other hand, Tera Blast could probably use more power given Talonflame's mediocre attack. I don't know if the set hits hard enough running a non boosting item on it. Maybe Swords Dance can fix that, but it still leaves you trying to set up for a turn without taking a hit. Miror Herb proc is really niche, though.

I thought about some really niche team with a Swagger and Eject Button lead, but I had no way force an opponent to attack instead of set up or hazards because none of the Magic Bounce pokemon get Swagger in Gen 9. I didn't find any decent alternative that was worth trying so far.

You're probably right that Heavy Duty Boots should be listed as a main option because Swords Dance does help with power. I guess in a way, it could be easier to find a set up turn than enough hazard clear support. I'll add boots next to Mirror Herb and no item variants.

Third set needs to be like this: Defog, Flare Blitz (needed to consistently threaten Goldengho), Roost and one of Wow, Taunt, Tailwind, U-Turn or Brave Bird, U-Turn probably being the most splashable move there. Of course, nature needs to be changed to Jolly and ability to Flame Body.

I put Overheat on it for Gholdengo. I don't know if special or physical attacks are more threatening to most Gholdengo sets, but both Talonflame's attacking stats and Gholdengo's defensive stats respectively don't have much difference between them for special versus physical. It doesn't seem to me like there is that large a difference besides recoil.

The problem with Flare Blitz is it takes you out of max HP range. So I opted for one of the special fire moves.

U-Turn actually presents a similar risk because of Rocky Helmet, Spiky Shield, and Rough Skin on something like Garchomp. A lot of people are running things like Rocky Helmet to deal with Population Bomb right now. I don't think it would be bad to run U-Turn if you didn't need Talonflame at full HP. The problem is there is virtually no point in running Talonflame support without the priority support.

To be honest, I don't think Talonflame has much of a niche in OU as support besides as a defogger that's able to threaten Gholdengo. And I don't know how useful that is compared to something like Iron Treads or Great Tusk. As a tailwind setter, I also think there are just straight up better options. However, you have a point that I should cover more support move options.

If you want a purely Tailwind set it should have Sash as item and use Tailwind, Taunt and 2 of Brave Bird, Flare Blitz and U-Turn. Obviously with Max Attack and speed, Adamant is probably best nature here.

This could be sort of interesting as a suicide lead Tailwind setter. While I suspect there would be better suicide Tailwind leads, I'll probably add it to the list just in case.

 

[Tungdil]

What's the reason for all sets having Gale Wings (serious question)? In my opinion, at least the support set should have Flame Body to try punishing Knock off and U-turn attempts.

 

[Bold School]

What's the reason for all sets having Gale Wings (serious question)? In my opinion, at least the support set should have Flame Body to try punishing Knock off and U-turn attempts.

Offensive sets have it so they can get Flying priority moves with high BP. The thing is that priority also applies to Tailwind and Defog, which I assume would be one of the primary reasons to run support Talonflame. The suicide lead set in particular, which is already very niche at best, needs to be able to guarantee getting up the Tailwind over other users of Priority or Choice Scarf.

I suppose you could run Flame Body on a defogger, but it's really awkward trying to proc burn chances on such a frail pokemon. Talonflame's speed tier is very good so maybe you could get away with not running Gale Wings? I just kind of wonder why you'd run it outside of Gholdengo, but maybe that's enough for people. There's also the problem of strong priority being very common, which makes relying solely on speed difficult in this meta.

 

[Seth Vilo]

I'm actually fairly interested in trying out the Flame Body Support type sets. Fire Flying has always been incredibly unique defensively. With Knock Off being so severely limited now (and likely forever if the moveset reset with Home I've dreamed of for years comes true), it means you can more reliably retain your Boots through an entire match. Flame Body Talon was also very frequently used as a defensive and offensive staple in lower tiers in SwSh, so there's no reason it can't be used here too to the same effect. I intend on using it along a status-spam team; Heal Bell is basically gone, and Aromatherapy was snapped this gen, so unlike hazards they're essentially permanent every match. On top of threatening Gholdengo which people in the main thread are having a fit over rn, this can just be general support to a team.

Now I just have to figure out an EV spread and moves. Right now I'm at max HP and 232+ Speed to outrun Meowscarada, but I'm not sure if that's an important benchmark. There's also the debate of physical or special. The difference in damage on Enemy #1, Gholdengo, is almost negligible uninvested.

• 0 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 228-270 (72.3 - 85.7%)
• 0 SpA Talonflame Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 236-282 (74.9 - 89.5%)

So it really comes down to how comfortable you are with contact, recoil, and possibly a (-) nature on other moves like U-Turn / Brave Bird.

 

[zantaRay]

Support talonflame lines up well currently for a few reasons.

1: One of the only reliable answers to taunt annihilape. You are fine to switch in on any attack, and can outsped with will-o-wisp to beat taunt. If it's a rest variant, your other Pokemon can happily deal with it as it lacks taunt.
2: One of the only meaningful ways to punish U-turn spammers. Most Pokemon currently using it hate burns.
3: Defogger who can do anything to goldengho without needing to predict the switch in, and isn't scared of any of the common moves on scarf sets.

These are all pretty important functions on less aggressive teams, hence it's relatively high usage right now. If anything I would make it the main set.

 

[Bold School]

I have made some updates after testing. I changed the general support to a more dedicated Defogger since it's a valid niche to have one that can beat Gholdengo. This is currently one of the top reasons to use Talonflame. I also changed the ability to Flame Body since Talonflame's speed tier is good enough where it doesn't need priority Defog.

However, I still feel Talonflame's offensive capabilities are flying very under the radar. The Rain Hurricane set is the best of these, in my opinion. It's actually really good.

I tried running the Mirror Herb physical Talonflame set, and is very niche and mediocre. Very occasionally, you can make a spectacular read that gets you a sweep. But it's very difficult to actually time this properly. You could also run Heavy Duty Boots, but the problem is that Acrobatics doesn't get full power with an item and Tera Blast apparently isn't actually priority with Gale Wings. Talonflame's speed tier is still great, but it leaves it much more vulnerable to opposing priority to rely on Tera Blast like this as the primary move.

I think the most optimal version of the physical set is no item with Acrobatics and Protect. It still is fairly mid compared to the special set, though, and requires finding a turn to Swords Dance. But I would like to hear what other people think of physical Talonflame iterations.

I have not tried the Tailwind suicide lead yet since it would take a very niche team to make it worth it. I suspect their might be better options.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Theory crafted this set for testing:

Talonflame @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Atk / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Will-O-Wisp / U-turn / Flamethrower
- Defog
- Roost / Flamethrower

The basic premise is to fulfill the same role as Corviknight but targeting a different set of threats - meaning you are explicitly NOT trying to beat Gholdengo but you want to have access to Defog for other team structures or after Dengo has been worn down with hazards and pressure. The main idea is to use the defensive advantages of the typing to fill in gaps as a secondary check against pokemon that cause balance issues that corviknight can't handle, specifically Annihilape, Iron Valiant, Chi-Yu, and Skeledirge.

The speed investment guarantees outspeeding unboosted Iron Valiant, and at this attack number always OHKOs with brave bird after one spikes or two SRs. With this bulk, guaranteed one comfortable switch into a specs Chi-Yu flamethrower (but not Dark Pulse); two if not specs, and is 50% to OHKO after SR+Spikes.

The exact EV spread and moves are still in question. It's possible that the speed number wants to be bumped up to beat Roaring Moon. It's also unclear whether Uturn or WoW is better. WoW gives better game against Annihilape but U-turn more closely mirrors the momentum pivot role of Corviknight which becomes crucial in many scenarios such as when Dengo realizes you aren't Overheat.

Set particulars are in development still so feedback is welcome

Edit: slashed flamethrower as uninvested 2hkos Goldy anyway

 

[STEELDRAGON]

I have been using Talonflame a lot and it far exceeds its expectations. It is easily one of the best entry hazard removers/pivots in the whole game. It also provides a lot of utility with being able to check things like Iron Vaillant or other offensive threats and is good at spreading burns. More offensive sets really need team support to be able to get anywhere.