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Resource SWSH LC Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Fiend
- Start date
- Status
Corphish was added into B+. He seems to have been removed by mistake.
Has been moved up from mid A to A+.
Have been moved down from A+ to mid A.
Have been moved down from mid A to A-.
Been noticing some trends that should contribute to a few Pokemon rising up in the VR:
B+ to A-
Honestly, this nomination is not that surprising. Grookey has shined in recent months as both an offensive threat and a stellar support. Grassy Terrain enables our favorite bat while providing extra utility for teammates like Mienfoo, Onix, and Pawniard. However, its offensive capabilities are the reason why I am making this nom. Grookey absolutely feasts on Mareanie / Diglett / Mienfoo / Pawniard cores that usually carry one good Grass-resistant Pokemon in Vullaby through its STAB moves and Drain Punch. It is a definitive threat that forces constraints in teambuilding, forcing players to usually carry a secondary Grass check that isn't gonna get bopped by Drain Punch.
B to B+
Speaking of the bat, the mon is a match-up nightmare. Although the rise of Balloon Dig should theoretically drop its viability, it has seen consistent usage enough to warrant its B+ viability. Grassy Seed Woobat is still annoying to deal with, especially under Webs, but you can also opt for the Nasty Plot variant which requires less setup and more wallbreaking power.
B to B+
A surprising nom to say the very least. Neutralizing Gas has given Koffing a good niche in the metagame, limiting the effectiveness of Regenerator cores while preventing it from being trapped by Diglett. You also get a T-spikes absorber and Fighting check which complements many defensive cores. I wouldn't quite move Koffing to A- tier yet, as losing Levitate does make it susceptible to stuff that it usually checks like Onix and Mudbray, but it is deserving of being B+ on the VR.
B+ to A-
Honestly, this nomination is not that surprising. Grookey has shined in recent months as both an offensive threat and a stellar support. Grassy Terrain enables our favorite bat while providing extra utility for teammates like Mienfoo, Onix, and Pawniard. However, its offensive capabilities are the reason why I am making this nom. Grookey absolutely feasts on Mareanie / Diglett / Mienfoo / Pawniard cores that usually carry one good Grass-resistant Pokemon in Vullaby through its STAB moves and Drain Punch. It is a definitive threat that forces constraints in teambuilding, forcing players to usually carry a secondary Grass check that isn't gonna get bopped by Drain Punch.
B to B+
Speaking of the bat, the mon is a match-up nightmare. Although the rise of Balloon Dig should theoretically drop its viability, it has seen consistent usage enough to warrant its B+ viability. Grassy Seed Woobat is still annoying to deal with, especially under Webs, but you can also opt for the Nasty Plot variant which requires less setup and more wallbreaking power.
B to B+
A surprising nom to say the very least. Neutralizing Gas has given Koffing a good niche in the metagame, limiting the effectiveness of Regenerator cores while preventing it from being trapped by Diglett. You also get a T-spikes absorber and Fighting check which complements many defensive cores. I wouldn't quite move Koffing to A- tier yet, as losing Levitate does make it susceptible to stuff that it usually checks like Onix and Mudbray, but it is deserving of being B+ on the VR.
Abra - Down from A+ to mid A 
Grookey - Up from B+ to A- 
Woobat - Up from mid B to B+ 
Slowpoke - Up from B- to B 
Frillish - Down from B to B-
I feel like scorbunny shouldnt be in C Tier but instead B or B+, yes it is frail but it can ohko ferroseed and deal heavy damage to spritzee
188 Atk Scorbunny Blaze Kick vs. 84 HP / 188+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 24-28 (109 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
188 Atk Libero Scorbunny Gunk Shot vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 18-24 (66.6 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
also being able to pivot using uturn on threats like mareanie and trapinch to give a better match up
188 Atk Scorbunny Blaze Kick vs. 84 HP / 188+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 24-28 (109 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
188 Atk Libero Scorbunny Gunk Shot vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 18-24 (66.6 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
also being able to pivot using uturn on threats like mareanie and trapinch to give a better match up
Hippopotas C --> B-
This Mon is not a C tier mon. It has a great defense stat and HP. It has access to a plethora of utility moves, including Yawn, Slack Off, Stealth Rock, Whirlwind, Rest+Sleep Talk, Sub, Curse, and Toxic. It has decent attacking options with Ground, Steel, Rock, and Fighting moves. It is an immense help on Sand teams and is a big bother to the opponent. It's not passive either with an attack stat of 72, which is higher than Vullaby. It acts like a reverse Frillish, with a high Def and a lower SpD with a different cripple move. Overall he is a great Physical tank, and can greatly harass the other team, and apply Sand for Sand teams.
Thanks.
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I know I'm a "git gud" player but its criminal that sandshrew-a is not on this list for some reason. Granted Snover is not a fantastic mon right now, but sandshrew-a loves the trend of people using mienfoo over timburr. I also haven't seen a single gunk in this meta either with no shell smashers so there are a few things going for it. It bonks meta stuff like abra, vull, dig, grooky, woobat, which are rising in viability / have always been good. Even if for some reason it can't outright sweep from preview it still is like the best revenge killer under hail and still can run a-veil and we all know how balanced that move is. It obviously has its roadblocks like dewpider / webs, slowpoke, timburr, and vulpix, but even stuff you think might check it like staryu and corph, krabby all get beaten by a-viel unless you get like a scald burn. I had replays but I don't remember what account they were on so oh well.
I'm think maybe B and then throw Snover in C.
Or if you want to ignore this post thats fine too.
I'm think maybe B and then throw Snover in C.
Or if you want to ignore this post thats fine too.
Magnemite: Rise to A-
At the moment, I feel like Magnemite is in a really good position in the meta: it literally feasts on teams with no Ground-type (which are more common at the moment due to people prefering Pawniard over Onix as a dedicated flycheck to not invite Grookey in as freely), checks the aforementioned Grookey (and can put quite a dent on its partner-in-crime Woobat), somewhat prevents flying types to spam their flying stabs (although it doesn't want to in most of the time as it fears a Knock Off from Vulla or a Scald burn from Gull), takes advantage of Mareanie's current place in the meta, checks Abra...
What really is awful when dealing with Magnemite is its set unpredictability, as the Scarved one and the BJ one have quite different uses as you may know, and which set it is isn't always evident on team preview. BJ Magnemite aims to emergency check everything that doesn't pack Knock Off and is actually incredibly efficient in doing so, whereas Scarved Magnemite is a solid Speed Control option, albeit outsped by faster scarfers, but with the ability to fire off strong Analytic-boosted attack. As such, you could end up with a Sturdy Mag tanking an attack / Scarved Mag outspeeding you and KOing by/or Volt Switching on you on a wrong assumption. With its strong Volt Switches, it's a great partner for the current king Mienfoo that can quickly throw off the non-ground type teams whereas the teams with a Ground type somewhat invite Grookey in for free, and aren't even sure to check Magnemite correctly, as BJ Mag wins the duel and Scarfed could fire off a strong Steel STAB on a prediction. And I haven't even told you about BJ Mag's uses on Webs, which make up for the only bad point of this set, being its lackluster speed.
The point is, by checking Magnemite, current teams could be more open to other Pokémon, so, when they have the choice, current teams would rather check a plethora of Pokémon rather than Magnemite, a thing that the robot just loves at the moment.
At the moment, I feel like Magnemite is in a really good position in the meta: it literally feasts on teams with no Ground-type (which are more common at the moment due to people prefering Pawniard over Onix as a dedicated flycheck to not invite Grookey in as freely), checks the aforementioned Grookey (and can put quite a dent on its partner-in-crime Woobat), somewhat prevents flying types to spam their flying stabs (although it doesn't want to in most of the time as it fears a Knock Off from Vulla or a Scald burn from Gull), takes advantage of Mareanie's current place in the meta, checks Abra...
What really is awful when dealing with Magnemite is its set unpredictability, as the Scarved one and the BJ one have quite different uses as you may know, and which set it is isn't always evident on team preview. BJ Magnemite aims to emergency check everything that doesn't pack Knock Off and is actually incredibly efficient in doing so, whereas Scarved Magnemite is a solid Speed Control option, albeit outsped by faster scarfers, but with the ability to fire off strong Analytic-boosted attack. As such, you could end up with a Sturdy Mag tanking an attack / Scarved Mag outspeeding you and KOing by/or Volt Switching on you on a wrong assumption. With its strong Volt Switches, it's a great partner for the current king Mienfoo that can quickly throw off the non-ground type teams whereas the teams with a Ground type somewhat invite Grookey in for free, and aren't even sure to check Magnemite correctly, as BJ Mag wins the duel and Scarfed could fire off a strong Steel STAB on a prediction. And I haven't even told you about BJ Mag's uses on Webs, which make up for the only bad point of this set, being its lackluster speed.
The point is, by checking Magnemite, current teams could be more open to other Pokémon, so, when they have the choice, current teams would rather check a plethora of Pokémon rather than Magnemite, a thing that the robot just loves at the moment.
ScraggyB+ ---> A-
Scraggy is undoubtedly a top sweeper with the likes of NP vullaby and agility porygon. It sets up on a ton of the meta (every single rocker not named close combat mudbray, you can legitimately set up on stuff like foongus/mareanie and ferro if you get lucky or win sub 50/50s as well) and abuses webs very well and can threaten teams seriously even without a dd up. It is also one of the best diglett abusers in the tier whether you fodder your own diglett to gambit trade to allow scrag to set up easier or you revenge an opposing diglett after it has trapped your mon and dd or sub up freely. B+ is selling it very short to say the least.
WingullA+ ---> A
Wingull really dislikes a ton of trends in the meta right now. It struggles to break the double dark cores that are fantastic right now and it's a bird that often has a bad webs matchup somehow. Having to hit crucial 70% hurricanes so often just kinda stinks assuming you're not fighting a pix or don't just die to some sort of priority whether grassy glide grookey or sucker pawn or is just sack fodder after something stronger has already set up. Waters also aren't needed right now as much as they once were and if you do want/need one staryu and mareanie are often better suited for balance and you always have to run dewp on webs obviously. Still a good mon but not in the same tier as pawn/mare/dig.
The VR rankings have been updated with the new pokemon and some meta trends. This is considered a preliminary list; thank you to all of the anonymous people who filled out the public survey. Much has changed across the board, but notably we have removed the C ranks at this point in time. C rank will likely come back in the future but refrain from posting about them for now.
Feel free to discuss the rankings of what did not make the cut, and the individual rankings found in the OP.
Feel free to discuss the rankings of what did not make the cut, and the individual rankings found in the OP.
One thing I found extremely surprising was the absence of Chinchou on the ranking. I think chinchou is an extremely good mon, and arguably one of the best bulky water types in little cup. Chinchou is at its best when it is supporting regenerator cores and especially compliments mienfoo, arguably the best mon in the metagame. It acts as an excellent flying counter, and if run with a regenerator mon, can switch back in, taking hits in order to reposition your team and heal up your regenerator users.
this is all amazing, but if it was only A pivot mon and flying counter, that wouldn’t be too powerful. Chinchou’s edge over other Pokemon is that it is a pivot mon with 14 def and spdef, whilst also having an excellent typing. Electric water is an excellent typing with only two weaknesses: ground and grass. Grass is a decent type, but nothing that you should have too much difficulty finding a switch in for, and ground has difficulty switching in on Chinchou, since scald is so damaging. Even if you have a non ground type mon that has ground coverage, chinchou is likely to live the hit, then volt switch out since the mon isn’t ground type.
chinchou also acts as a good support mon for types weak to water or electric due to volt/water absorb. Volt absorb compliments vullaby quite well, and removes the need to have a ground type to block magnetite and other chinchou, whilst water absorb defends vulpix and ponyta, helps prevent ground and rock types like onix and diglett from getting revenge killed. In addition the opponent can never be fully sure which you have.
in addition, much like woobat, chinchou gets an (admittedly smaller) power up when placed within two feet of the monkey. Grookey threatens ground types for woobat, and can switch in against grass moves before pivoting out with u-turn, and leaving behind grassy terrain. Most bulky mon enjoy the healing from grassy terrain, but as an added bonus, chinchou now can live stab earthquake from diglett, its biggest check. In addition, because chinchou lends itself to regenerator pivot teams, grookey will be switching in and out every thirty seconds, meaning grassy terrain is up most of the time. Suddenly, a significant amount of ground types are now losing the chinchou matchup.
in conclusion, a list of pros and cons:
pro:
Electric coverage is r
One of the best flying checks
Very bulky switch in without losing momentum
Excellent defensive typing
Reliable pivot into frail mon
Good regenerator cleric
Good support for flying and water types with volt absorb
Good support for rock, ground, and fire types with water absorb
Decent endgame mon against most water, rock, flying, and some ground, fire mon
Many of its checks disappear in grassy terrain
Can run fairy and ice coverage
Has more offensive sets that can deal good damage
Scald’s ability to burn can cripple a mon and remove a teams main offensive pieces
cons:
Outside of grassy terrain, it tends to lose to mon with stab ground
Both of the best fire mon (ponyta and vulpix) have other ways of killing it
Grookey is its friend, and its greatest nightmare. It can be tough to switch in against due to u-turn, and other coverage moves like drain punch and knock off, and if you stay in, gr
Foongus is also brutal, due to spore, poison coverage to stop grass types and Giga drain to threaten chinchou itself
Needs to be paired with the right mon to get value (mienfoo, vullaby, grookey, ponyta, vulpix, among others) thus lacks versatility
I am biased, so take this with a pinch of salt, but I think on the right archetype of team, chinchou is a Pokemon that makes everything else significantly stronger, whilst being a damaging threat and bulky mon itself
this is all amazing, but if it was only A pivot mon and flying counter, that wouldn’t be too powerful. Chinchou’s edge over other Pokemon is that it is a pivot mon with 14 def and spdef, whilst also having an excellent typing. Electric water is an excellent typing with only two weaknesses: ground and grass. Grass is a decent type, but nothing that you should have too much difficulty finding a switch in for, and ground has difficulty switching in on Chinchou, since scald is so damaging. Even if you have a non ground type mon that has ground coverage, chinchou is likely to live the hit, then volt switch out since the mon isn’t ground type.
chinchou also acts as a good support mon for types weak to water or electric due to volt/water absorb. Volt absorb compliments vullaby quite well, and removes the need to have a ground type to block magnetite and other chinchou, whilst water absorb defends vulpix and ponyta, helps prevent ground and rock types like onix and diglett from getting revenge killed. In addition the opponent can never be fully sure which you have.
in addition, much like woobat, chinchou gets an (admittedly smaller) power up when placed within two feet of the monkey. Grookey threatens ground types for woobat, and can switch in against grass moves before pivoting out with u-turn, and leaving behind grassy terrain. Most bulky mon enjoy the healing from grassy terrain, but as an added bonus, chinchou now can live stab earthquake from diglett, its biggest check. In addition, because chinchou lends itself to regenerator pivot teams, grookey will be switching in and out every thirty seconds, meaning grassy terrain is up most of the time. Suddenly, a significant amount of ground types are now losing the chinchou matchup.
in conclusion, a list of pros and cons:
pro:
Electric coverage is r
One of the best flying checks
Very bulky switch in without losing momentum
Excellent defensive typing
Reliable pivot into frail mon
Good regenerator cleric
Good support for flying and water types with volt absorb
Good support for rock, ground, and fire types with water absorb
Decent endgame mon against most water, rock, flying, and some ground, fire mon
Many of its checks disappear in grassy terrain
Can run fairy and ice coverage
Has more offensive sets that can deal good damage
Scald’s ability to burn can cripple a mon and remove a teams main offensive pieces
cons:
Outside of grassy terrain, it tends to lose to mon with stab ground
Both of the best fire mon (ponyta and vulpix) have other ways of killing it
Grookey is its friend, and its greatest nightmare. It can be tough to switch in against due to u-turn, and other coverage moves like drain punch and knock off, and if you stay in, gr
Foongus is also brutal, due to spore, poison coverage to stop grass types and Giga drain to threaten chinchou itself
Needs to be paired with the right mon to get value (mienfoo, vullaby, grookey, ponyta, vulpix, among others) thus lacks versatility
I am biased, so take this with a pinch of salt, but I think on the right archetype of team, chinchou is a Pokemon that makes everything else significantly stronger, whilst being a damaging threat and bulky mon itself
How does it complement Mienfoo other than clicking Volt Switch? Offensively it can hit Flying-types but Mienfoo is HJKing those anyway for more damage. Neither of them can handle Foongus well anyway. It's not even an excellent Flying counter because Vullaby clicks Knock Off and Woobat is probably set-up already or using it as set-up bait. Fast Chinchou is speed tying some birds at best, slow Chou (gross) is getting chipped too hard, and Choice Scarf is way too easily trapped and worn down in this meta to be effective.
In order for Chinchou to maximise on its defenses it needs to take a big hit in power and speed, which severely limits its ability to actually threaten anything. You don't want Chou being slower than +0 Vullaby, ever. Besides, it doesn't have the reliable recovery that a defensive threat needs in this meta, nor a gimmick outside of an unhelpful ability to help keep it afloat.
Grass is an extremely relevant type rn with Grookey everywhere and Foongus/Ferroseed on most teams as a useful defensive option. Ground-types aren't switching into Chou unless choice-locked but Chou isn't switching in on them, either. That Electric typing gets in the way, and on average those Ground-types are hurting Chou much harder than vice-versa.
Vullaby is way more scared of Rock-types than Electrics other than maybe Magnemite, but lots of things can deal with that, and Chou can't deal with Rocks that well because most of them hit too hard or have coverage to nuke it anyway.
Did you know that Wooper also beats Magnemite, Chinchou, has Water Absorb/Unaware, has Recover and is a Ground-type? Bad example I know, but for the sake of your scenario Wooper is actually better here. Also, Sun cores run Ground and Grass moves so Chou isn't getting any work done against them. Sun is mean to it, too. My point here is that for each scenario you provide there's a Pokemon that handles it better.
A lot of Ground-types either use High Horsepower or have some other move that blows up Chou. Other than that, there's nothing here that other Pokemon don't benefit from.
I apologise if this seems like I'm picking on a newer user, I'm just trying to shake off the rust, and I think this Pokemon sucks.
It's good to be back.
I think you raised a lot of good points, however, I don’t agree on your contention that Chinchou requires speed investment.
For context here is the set I currently run on my chinchou.
Gleam (Chinchou) @ Eviolite
Ability: Volt Absorb
Level: 5
EVs: 212 Def / 148 SpA / 148 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Heal Bell
Chinchou, with no speed investment, hits 13 speed, a speed tier that I think is perfect for chinchou (although you might argue that you should run fewer speed IVs, giving it 12 or eleven speed) I think that 13 is the perfect speed tier for a mon like chinchou, with it underspeeding most mon in order to switch out, but outspeeding slower mon such as foongus, ferroseed, trapinch, thus making those matchups significantly better. Any higher speed and bulky attackers like slow foo are going to start underspeeding it, therefore getting hits off on whatever you switch into. 13 is a great speed tier, I wouldn’t recommend putting any speed investment into chinchou at all. this means you can have 14 in both defences and 14 special attack, meaning whilst it doesn’t hit like a tuck, exactly it is usually taking less damage than it deals, especially given that it has at least a neutral effective move against all types except grass.
speaking of grass, I wouldn’t agree that grass is a ‘very relevant type’. Vullaby is the second best mon in the tier and its usage is really high, plus grass hits ground and rock well, that only two ‘relevant’ type. Grass is a decent type, if that it’s good beacause the Pokemon are good. There are three good mon: grookey, ferroseed, foongus. That is more or less it, and I could debate for a while on whether ferroseed is all that great in a meta where ponyta and vulpix are so good and mienfoo hits for super effective damage, plus knock off’s abundance is a further issue for it. That’s it. Three (two and a half) good mon. Now let’s talk specific matchup. Ferroseed goes roughly neutral against it since thunder wave, its main form of pressure, is useless against it, and we can pivot into another mon, forcing it to switch out. Foongus is dependent on the rest of your team. You get to pivot out against it, but can you predict when they will use spore as opposed to other moves. That one is usually foongus favoured unless you are running overcoat vullaby, which virtually nobody is. I’ll give you that. Grookey forces you out every time though, and it is a popular mon, although usually it doesn’t get to pin you down since if it switches in you usually volt switch away before it hits you.
so it is soft checked by foongus and hard checked by grookey. That doesn’t make a bad mon.
In addition, I would argue that most of time, there is a better mon for a situation, vullaby isn’t as good against other flying types as archen, but that doesn’t mean it’s a worse mon, it’s just worse in that scenario. Proving that chinchou isn’t the best mon in this specific situation doesn’t mean anything, it’s about the mon’s different uses in different scenarios
also sun isn’t that good, with chlorophyll gone, the main incentive for setting up sun for your team is gone. Having a bad sun matchup isn’t all that important
You also argued that it isn’t a good flying counter. It beats vullaby excellently. You can click knock off all you want, but in exchange I can remove your berry juice without triggering weak armor and switch out into whatever I like in a single turn. Wingull is an even better matchup because volt switch is 4x effective, woobat isn’t going to like a volt switch into anything with knock off, and if it is already set up then A. That’s your fault B. That has nothing to do with chinchou, archen had better hope it hits those rock blasts because supereffective scald or volt switch is really good. It also has a small niche in the ubers tiers as one of the few Pokemon that forces banded or scarfed rufflet out. So yes it is a great flying killer, not because of a single godlike matchup, but because its consistent at killing all flying type, not just vullaby.
so whilst I agree with some of your points and I even briefly mentioned the high horsepower thing before, but I don’t think enough of them hold enough weight to justify putting this mon anywhere below a B-
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Also heal bell is a great support move that I forgot to mention above, especially for teams that pivot a lot and are vulnerable to burn, toxic, and para, plus it makes that foongus matchup better since even if it gets of a spore, all you have to do is get chinchou back on the field and click heal bell. Chinchou is a great pack horse, it switches in for hits that other mon can’t take, takes hits in order to farm regenerator procs, and takes your sleep turns for you. Great support tank
I have done a bit of research, (and by research I mean I took a break and found a good set like a week ago) I found this guy with a really good archer set and here it is:
Prehistoric borb (Archen) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Defeatist
Level: 5
EVs: 56 HP / 180 Atk / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Crunch
- Rock Slide
- Stealth Rock
Its very good at Cleaning up opposing threats like vullaby and foongus with rock slide and acrobatics. The juice is for recovery so it gets out of defeatist range and so acrobatics does double damage, effectively making a hyper offensive Mon for the rest of the match.
So, I'd say archen should be in solid A Tier bit I'd like to see what you guys think.
Prehistoric borb (Archen) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Defeatist
Level: 5
EVs: 56 HP / 180 Atk / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Crunch
- Rock Slide
- Stealth Rock
Its very good at Cleaning up opposing threats like vullaby and foongus with rock slide and acrobatics. The juice is for recovery so it gets out of defeatist range and so acrobatics does double damage, effectively making a hyper offensive Mon for the rest of the match.
So, I'd say archen should be in solid A Tier bit I'd like to see what you guys think.
archen is definitely not an A tier mon. if u compare it to what would also be in A tier, idt it compares to the best webs setter (dewp), one of the best fight resists in the meta rn (koffing), a fatmon that has 2 actual resists in the current meta (pory), or a 19 speed breaker (staryu). it is also much worse than mons in A- or B+ like foongus, magnemite, pix, abra, and trapinch (random examples, idt it's better than even the mons i haven't listed, for the most part).
even w/o considering the other mons in tiers above it, i think that archen struggles right now. one of its main niches, which is that it is a better flying check than vullaby, is p much moot considering vull knocks off bj, rendering archen useless, and that wingull spams water move and ohkos archen. additionally, archen has little to no reliable ways of getting past a lot of its checks and counters: common flying resists like onix and pawniard take an earthquake and ohko back with a rock move or iron head, respectively, it doesn't break defensive cores in the same way that vullaby can (with knock), and it is offensively checked by the multitude of 19 speed mons that we have right now. archen still does cool things but i think that staying in B+ or even dropping to B would be more fitting for it.
finally ur set is. not the best. dual wingbeat is a better flying stab than acrobatics for the most part, as you can actually threaten flying weaks without having to be weakened yourself. if you do want a dark type move, knock off is miles better than crunch. rock blast is also a better stab move than rock slide, as you will do more damage the majority of the time because of how multihit damage calculations work in lc (also a reason to run dual wingbeat over acrobatics). finally, having earthquake would help your archen a lot, helping it beat ground weaks (which it fails to do as-is).
A+ ———> A-
Mareanie atm isn’t stronger than before. People prefer playing koffing or foongus as fight and grookey checks which with mare you can’t do it well (cuz sometimes you will face foo + dig and mare is easily trapped). Mare usages dropped also because of fire’s drop and koffing’s rise.
Unranked ———-> B-
A lot of people are using in lcwcop screener natu. Natu has a good niche thanks to its ability, its moves and its good speed. It is the best setup screener of the meta with also abra. Also it helps better against webs mu. I think we should rank it.
A ——————-> A-
Webs atm are less strong. That’s because people prefer using screens instead of it. It is more difficult to put up webs instead of using screens cuz of staryu, rblast onix, tyrunt, taunt foo, natu, dual wing moves, that are the reasons why it has less usage rn.
Unranked ——————> B-
This mon is powerful under screens. Bdrum + vital spirit means you can setup freerly on foong, also it has a good speed (outspeeding most of the mons except diglett) and good coverage fpunch, tpunch, mpunch. I think this should be added also.
A ——————-> A+
This is the best fighting check atm, it gives you both solid stats and good speed (mare and spritz are too passive). Neutralizing gas is really cool on this mon, blocking regencore is always an advantage. Also it has an amazing coverage wow is really cool against its counters onix and mud. Koffing had a rise up in usages thanks to grookey’s usages, vulpix and abra drops. Also in this meta there are less grounds thanks to grassy terrain. Also it is really good against the core grookey + woobat.
A- ——————-> A
Foong is the other good fighting resist atm thanks to vulpix, abra drops and because atm there are less usages for flying-type (only vulla is good atm). It has good stats and a good type. It counters half of the meta, I think it needs to rise up
B+ ———————->A-
This mon is really good atm better than before. It works well against both balanced and offensive teams. Trapping grookey, ferro, pawn, abra, onix, mite, pony and ponyg is always good. It has good solid stats. Having the most powerful priority in the game is the reason why he is so strong atm. This priority can help you to trap and kill mons like staryu, nplot vulla, woobat or scraggy if they are in range.
Also mare’s drop helped this to have more impact on the meta. I think it deserves A-.
Unranked mons:
Prob all of these should be unranked, never seen in any tours, I think they are bad atm, zig couldn’t setup well cuz of ferro, onix, timb, fi trapinch, grookey. Corp isn’t good because there are a lot of grookey and foongus and it is hard to setup easily that is also because of the ground’s lack. Croagunk is still bad because of diglett, koffing, trapinch, prob in webs could work fine but who would change foo or scraggy for this mon.
Amaura isn’t good, you can’t setup well veil cuz of its bad speed, 15 is so bad for putting up veil that is why people prefer natu instead of this. Also hail teams seems not so good atm cuz also of koffing’s ability.
Anyway I agree about dropping archen, I found it really bad atm, never useful. Prob I will give less usage for wingull putting it in b+, never seen it in tours atm probably because of grookey spam, pawn and tyrunt. It is likely to be that pory will increase more, I still think it is kinda strong atm and prob will rise up to a+ but I’m not sure about that.
Honestly I was gonna rebuttle what you said but ur making sense tbh.
Mareanie
A+ ———> A-
Mareanie atm isn’t stronger than before. People prefer playing koffing or foongus as fight and grookey checks which with mare you can’t do it well (cuz sometimes you will face foo + dig and mare is easily trapped). Mare usages dropped also because of fire’s drop and koffing’s rise.
Natu
Unranked ———-> B-
A lot of people are using in lcwcop screener natu. Natu has a good niche thanks to its ability, its moves and its good speed. It is the best setup screener of the meta with also abra. Also it helps better against webs mu. I think we should rank it.
Dewpider
A ——————-> A-
Webs atm are less strong. That’s because people prefer using screens instead of it. It is more difficult to put up webs instead of using screens cuz of staryu, rblast onix, tyrunt, taunt foo, natu, dual wing moves, that are the reasons why it has less usage rn.
Magby
Unranked ——————> B-
This mon is powerful under screens. Bdrum + vital spirit means you can setup freerly on foong, also it has a good speed (outspeeding most of the mons except diglett) and good coverage fpunch, tpunch, mpunch. I think this should be added also.
Koffing
A ——————-> A+
This is the best fighting check atm, it gives you both solid stats and good speed (mare and spritz are too passive). Neutralizing gas is really cool on this mon, blocking regencore is always an advantage. Also it has an amazing coverage wow is really cool against its counters onix and mud. Koffing had a rise up in usages thanks to grookey’s usages, vulpix and abra drops. Also in this meta there are less grounds thanks to grassy terrain. Also it is really good against the core grookey + woobat.
Foongus
A- ——————-> A
Foong is the other good fighting resist atm thanks to vulpix, abra drops and because atm there are less usages for flying-type (only vulla is good atm). It has good stats and a good type. It counters half of the meta, I think it needs to rise up
Trapinch
B+ ———————->A-
This mon is really good atm better than before. It works well against both balanced and offensive teams. Trapping grookey, ferro, pawn, abra, onix, mite, pony and ponyg is always good. It has good solid stats. Having the most powerful priority in the game is the reason why he is so strong atm. This priority can help you to trap and kill mons like staryu, nplot vulla, woobat or scraggy if they are in range.
Also mare’s drop helped this to have more impact on the meta. I think it deserves A-.
Unranked mons:
Prob all of these should be unranked, never seen in any tours, I think they are bad atm, zig couldn’t setup well cuz of ferro, onix, timb, fi trapinch, grookey. Corp isn’t good because there are a lot of grookey and foongus and it is hard to setup easily that is also because of the ground’s lack. Croagunk is still bad because of diglett, koffing, trapinch, prob in webs could work fine but who would change foo or scraggy for this mon.
Amaura isn’t good, you can’t setup well veil cuz of its bad speed, 15 is so bad for putting up veil that is why people prefer natu instead of this. Also hail teams seems not so good atm cuz also of koffing’s ability.
Anyway I agree about dropping archen, I found it really bad atm, never useful. Prob I will give less usage for wingull putting it in b+, never seen it in tours atm probably because of grookey spam, pawn and tyrunt. It is likely to be that pory will increase more, I still think it is kinda strong atm and prob will rise up to a+ but I’m not sure about that.
Agreed with everything (especially my boy koffing getting a rise) but a few of the UR's.
These mons and probably the two biggest beginner traps in the tier. I'll start out with Corp because I think it has the best chance of staying. The set up sets are complete garbage, but the 4 attack + eviolite set is atleast *passable*. Nothing that resists it's stab aside from Dewpider wants to switch into it, mainly because ferroseed gets smacked by superpower (in hindsight, 54% min is kinda pathetic but still) and knock off makes it so that foongus gets 2hkod after rocks by crabhammer.
Sounds nice, huh? Well, the con to all this is that Corp basically has 0 defensive utility. You'd either need to be a god at predicting switches, or be running some Volt-Turn shenadigans for it to actually be usable. It doesn't really get oneshot much, but it's so slow that even if it switches in, all it can do in return is aqua jet, which even with stab + adap doesn't really clean super reliably, which also makes it very easy to revenge kill.
Ziggy however is complete garbage because of the reasons listed above. Most overrated mon in the tier, maybe usable on screens but magby is so much better at drumming it's insane.
Cool screens setter, natu is much better but I feel like that speaks more of how good natu is than how unviable amaura is. It has a pretty cool offensive movepool, even though it's typing is complete trash defensively and it's way too slow to reliably set up veil. Honestly just put natu into B and this into B-, I don't think it's bad enough to be UR.
Can *very rarely* have insane matchups against teams that struggle with fighting types, but with how good the fighting resists are, this thing kinda just exists as a mediocre fighting type in a sea full of top-tier-threats. Probably an easy drop, unless some sub+bulk up set with insane coverage gets found out and suddenly starts wrecking shit, I don't think this thing is viable.
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Cool screens setter, natu is much better but I feel like that speaks more of how good natu is than how unviable amaura is. It has a pretty cool offensive movepool, even though it's typing is complete trash defensively and it's way too slow to reliably set up veil. Honestly just put natu into B and this into B-, I don't think it's bad enough to be UR.
Well, let’s consider you playing amaura. You can use it with sash, light clay and scarf sets. Let’s analyze the sash set which is the most common.
Sash is p cool on amaura, it helps better for putting veil up. You will often lead with amaura. Your oppo starts with foo (taunt set could be annoying), fake out and hjk next turn. You set up screens for just 4 turns (cuz the first is when you set up it). Are those enough for sweep? The answer is no. You’d better have more turns which with natu you can.
If you use light clay amaura, you will be ohked by all mons, I have tried it no way to put up veil.
Scarf set is the same, you put up veil only for 4 turns.
In my opinion it is unviable mostly of its speed and also because all mons atm beat him like foo, vulla can defog and koff is like 2ohko, diglett traps it p easy, grook ohkos it, mareanie scalds it and after can put up tspikes which could be annoying for the sweepers, onix rblast and fuck sash set, pawniard can flinch it or also puts off veil with brick break, scraggy sets up on it, dewp puts up webs, staryu ohkos, foong can spore and blizzard doesn’t ohko, so you can see most of the used mons are too good against him. Also amaura outspeeds few mons (mare, scraggy or dewp) but all of them can sets up on it (tspike, ddance, webs), so you will anyway lose some turns of veil.
The other reason why amaura isn’t so good atm is for its type and ability (hail is annoying for most of the sweepers). Compared to natu it can do nothing. Natu is better because of its speed and mostly its ability. Both rocks and webs fuck amaura while natu isn’t hurt by those cuz its ability and flying type. Its type is also good for putting up screens, you can do it against more used mons (grookey, mareanie, koffing, timb, bulk foo). Also you will have access to more turns of veil thanks to 17 speed and a free light clay and access to teleport that is interesting against who tries to decrease screens’ turns, also you can set up screens more than once time which with amaura you can’t. As you can see there are a lot of reasons why amaura isn’t good and it is really hard to set up veil (and if you can, you will do it only one time and for 4 turns which means you can’t sweep).
I have tried all sets but honestly no way to use it and abuse of it except if your oppo doesn’t play well against.
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Sounds pretty convincing. I was mainly thinking it was viable because rocks + veil sounds interesting (in hindsight losing coverage sucks but it hits like a wet noodle anyway) and it has very good coverage (ice stab, tbolt, rock stab, ep etc) which sounds good on paper. I thought it sat on the entire defensive metagame but running the calcs it really doesn't hit water types hard at all unless you ditch blizzard for freeze dry and run that with ep for steels, but without blizzard it doesn't hit neutral targets hard at all. So yeah, drop this thing like a rock and give natu a rise.
It’s worth mentioning that amaura has some niche uses as a suicide setup, whether you run light clay or scarf set. Click veil turn 1, and expect to die. Then go into scraggy, so grookey, sd mienfoo, orb Alolan sandshrew, nasty plot vulllaby etc, and set up for a sweep, preferably bringing more than one option in order to pick a mon that can sweep their specific team. I’m not saying it’s amazing, or even worth being on the ranking, but it’s worth a mention
I've been recently messing around with more of a robbery set of team. I have no idea if its necessarily good but in practice I've done pretty well. (I tried to do poke paste but my WiFi is garbage rn)
Issa birdie (Vullaby) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Weak Armor
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 SpD / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- Defog
- Thief
Lancelot (Pawniard) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 196 SpD / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thief
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Thunder Wave
Yeet (Meowth) @ Normal Gem
Ability: Technician
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Covet
- U-turn
-Toxic
I mostly Wanna focus on the moms that I gave thief, covet, etc and I propose this To be a setup worth looking into because of the viability in the beginning of the game. Use a fast Mon like meowth to fake out then take the other mons item and switch out accordingly. It could also help the longevity of the Mon because of the dominance of eviolite and berry juice among the meta game. also if used on the right Mon, it could get powerful items such as choice band and life orb to amp up the users power and have more kill confirms than it usually had access to from base sets. I don't really have a detailed ranking moms like this should be in but they should be at least recognized for there crippling capability
Issa birdie (Vullaby) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Weak Armor
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 SpD / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- Defog
- Thief
Lancelot (Pawniard) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 196 SpD / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thief
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Thunder Wave
Yeet (Meowth) @ Normal Gem
Ability: Technician
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Covet
- U-turn
-Toxic
I mostly Wanna focus on the moms that I gave thief, covet, etc and I propose this To be a setup worth looking into because of the viability in the beginning of the game. Use a fast Mon like meowth to fake out then take the other mons item and switch out accordingly. It could also help the longevity of the Mon because of the dominance of eviolite and berry juice among the meta game. also if used on the right Mon, it could get powerful items such as choice band and life orb to amp up the users power and have more kill confirms than it usually had access to from base sets. I don't really have a detailed ranking moms like this should be in but they should be at least recognized for there crippling capability
I get that this is a meme set, but it’s worth mentioning that theif pawn is objectively worse than running knock off pawn with the item you want, getting rid of their item and having the item you want already. Plus more damage too.
Truth be told you probably want a U-turn if you're using berry juice over eviolite on Vullaby, so ditching knock off would probably be more ideal, even though thief objectively worse than knock off in almost every way. Thiefing something useful can be kind of tough depending on what kind of teamstyle your opponent is running, like if you're opponent is using a mon like eviolite chinchou as their best vullaby switchin, even if you're almost guranteed to yoink an eviolite from it as long as you've lost your berry juice, running both knock off and U-turn is far more reliable, since it gurantees that you'll remove the eviolite 100% of the time, while also keeping U-turn and all of it's benefits.
Pawniard really needs a reliable dark type move so that it doesn't have to rely on sucker punch as it's strongest dark stab, since thief is so weak that it barely even counts, especially since pawniards typing is so weak defensively that it's hard to reliably get within berry juice range unless you purposely limit pawniard in some way (which you're already doing, given that you have to ditch eviolite, making pawniards slightly above average at best). I'm not saying that berry juice pawniard is garbage, but using it over eviolite solely for the minimal utility thief provides is kind of gimmicky. Finally, sacrificing the extra utility the fourth moveslot provides for the sake using both knock off and thief is pointless, especially since spamming knock off is more consistent.
And finally, Meowth really needs the extra power from life orb, since you're using a pretty lackluster item in the normal gem for the chance of yoinking an item from your opponent, which can range from a useful item such as a life orb (though why not run it from the start), to something kinda pointless like an eviolite or a berry juice, give meowths inability to switch into much of anything, to something useless like a choice scarf or a focus sash. Covet is also very easy to switch into by a large part of the metagame, given that meowths base 45 attack isn't threatening without a boost and the risk of losing an item isn't as detremental as it may seem (though it can be very sucky depending on the matchup).
I see what you're saying though with the eviolite has helped several times from surviving if I wouldve died easily if I had life orb. Also when the normal gem activates on fake out plus technician boost has either literally just making their life disappear like shrodingers cat (analogy intended) or dispatch its first turn, giving meowth more options since the all around one shot sets don't work anymore with the dex expansions. Plus covet will usually finish the job or leave it on low health (with the exception to rock steel and ghost obviously) and I put toxic on the set to specifically deteriorate walls or ghost types and rock types like archen,Aron,etc. So from my experiences, its a very good starting Mon especially to annoy marinie by taking its eviolite. And its not like the opponent has the capability to out speed meowth (even out speeding fellow fake out user meinfoo ) and its rare for somebody to use a priority move like mach punch,etc on turn 2 when it lost its first turn from fake out so its rare to get punished before it can cripple the opp because in this Fay and age, the item is a big part of the meta game.
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