Resource SWSH LC Viability Rankings

[pomfpomfpluff]

I see what you're saying though with the eviolite has helped several times from surviving if I wouldve died easily if I had life orb. Also when the normal gem activates on fake out plus technician boost has either literally just making their life disappear like shrodingers cat (analogy intended) or dispatch its first turn, giving meowth more options since the all around one shot sets don't work anymore with the dex expansions. Plus covet will usually finish the job or leave it on low health (with the exception to rock steel and ghost obviously) and I put toxic on the set to specifically deteriorate walls or ghost types and rock types like archen,Aron,etc. So from my experiences, its a very good starting Mon especially to annoy marinie by taking its eviolite. And its not like the opponent has the capability to out speed meowth (even out speeding fellow fake out user meinfoo ) and its rare for somebody to use a priority move like mach punch,etc on turn 2 when it lost its first turn from fake out so its rare to get punished before it can cripple the opp because in this Fay and age, the item is a big part of the meta game.

The problem with using covet on meowth is that it sacrifices way too much just to remove an item, and while yes, items are important, are they important enough to basically purposely limit yourself to what basically becomes a 5v6 for the chance of yoinking for an example an eviolite from your opponent?

Meowth loses far too much power from ditching life orb, and based on the calcs I've run the eviolite only helps against very weak attacks, such as a scald from mareanie (2hko to 2hko after rocks) and other moves you shouldn't switch meowth into in the first place, nor stay in against. The set relies far too much on stealing something useful, so if your opponent has a berry juice mon that also has a decent defence stat, like rocks onix, who incidentally sets up rocks for free if you lead with meowth since ditching a water move makes meowth useless against most of the stealth rock leads in the tier.

Fake out into covet is also very easy to play around, for an example sponging a fake out with a wall and then sacking the item of a minimally useful mon to then make meowth completely useless for the rest of the game, since unless it steals a life orb it's damage output is garbage, it's survivability is always garbage and it's utility is garbage after it yoinks at item. If your opponent has a ghost type meowth also becomes completely useless, since even though toxics damage output racks up, for the first two turns it barely deals any damage and doesn't help meowth steal an item unless you manage to quickly kill the ghost afterwards. I could see this set being useful in gen 7 with pursuit support, but it's gen 8 now.

So basically you're sacking meowths damage output and 1-2 move slots to have a shot at kind of permanantely crippling a mon while also making meowth easy setup fodder for anything, while also making it walled by anything that usually holds an eviolite.

 

[DC]

In to make Fiend do more work.
Now that LCWC has ended (Congrats East), it is an optimal time to nom some stuff to update the VR.
Rises:
(A to A+)
Porygon is a Pokemon that rose in popularity this LCWC as the meta shifted towards more traditional offense and bulky offense. It forces players to use a Steel-type on most teams or else they just get beat down by Download-boosted attacks. The new innovation of Choice Scarf Porygon solves one of its weaknesses, which is its mediocre speed prior to an Agility boost, while giving a way to weaken opposing foes with Trick. The standard Agility set is good as ever, since you can cheese thru your checks with a well-timed Ice Beam freeze if you are lucky.

(A- to A)
This was bound to happen with Grookey surging in popularity. Not much to say. Regenerator good, Spore good, Fighting-resist good.

(B+ to A)
The slower metagame favors Abra's return, taking advantage of popular picks like Koffing and Foongus. Focus Sash is basically the current set right now and it provides most team with an almost guarantee fail-safe option that can revenge kill foes like Grookey and boosted Scraggy. Thunder Wave or Reflect as an option over Counter is also quite useful, since you get a fast paralysis or a guaranteed screen for setup sweepers.

(B+ to A-)
Trapinch has gotten better in the metagame as a decent option to trap and KO non-Protect Grookey and other weakened foes. PoryPinch is a legit archetype in 2021, with Trapinch weakening checks like Pawniard and Ferroseed for Download Porygon to click buttons.

(B- to B+)
Tyrunt has been a surprise in terms of what it can do. The fact that it can set up on Vullaby and has superb coverage, along with a way to break Focus Sash, makes it a great pick on both Webs and Screens HO.

Some URs:
to B-: Underrated pick; Held back by Grookey's popularity, but if u can trap it with Trapinch, you get an excellent offensive threat.
to B: It carries the screens HO archetype by itself; Magic Bounce denies Taunt and opposing hazards which allows it to consistently get up screens
to B-: Hail is niche, but has seen usage. Triple Axel is incredibly strong and you have access to other options like SD, EQ, Knock, and even Aurora Veil to support its teammates.
to B-: Its a niche pick on more offensive teams that want a reliable Fighting-type that dishes out consistent damage. CC + Brave Bird covers most stuff and you have the movepool to experiment with other options like SD, Knock Off, Quick Attack, Sub, etc.

Drops:
(A to A-)
Webs have gotten worse since the last time the VR was updated.

(A- to B+)
Grookey being everywhere hurts Wingull's viability. You rarely want this mon over a better Water-type like Staryu or Mareanie.

Some other noms Im not sure of:
to A?: It has gotten a resurgence as of late. A- seems good for it rn, but it might be A material.
to A?: It seems like the worse one in A+. Its a Poison-type that loses to Grookey while facing strict competition from Staryu as a Water-type.
to B+?: Fire-types bad? IDK.
Nuking Omanyte and Tirtouga + everything in B- into UR territory

Good to be semi-back. Thanks for reading!

 

[daunt vs]

two short noms:
to A/A-: poison type that doesn't check grookey which makes it a lot less splashable. Because of the type of builds it fits it it needs trapinch or the team is going to be grookey weak most of the time which in this meta is terrible. A is enough of a drop but I could also see it dropping to A-
to B+ and to A- : Abra is now the best psychic type and the vr should reflect that, pony-g is inconsistent and it has a hard time fitting all moves it wants between cm/psy/dgleam/mfire/tect/msun while abra cant break like pony-g does vs ferro teams(pawn teams also but pawn gets chipped easily+counter) the utility vs cheese mons is rlly big in this meta and dig has drop in usage so its less scared of getting trapped also the raw power of even sash abra psy is a lot stronger than regular pony-g (w/o LO) which allows it to scare 12 spdef foo's and do more dmg to neutral targets like porygon forcing recover.

 

[pomfpomfpluff]

to A/A-: poison type that doesn't check grookey which makes it a lot less splashable. Because of the type of builds it fits it it needs trapinch or the team is going to be grookey weak most of the time which in this meta is terrible. A is enough of a drop but I could also see it dropping to A-

Truth be told the trappers alone make me not want to use Mareanie but it's qualities are kind of necessary at times. Still though, I'm all for an A- drop, even if it does sound kind of harsh.

Nuking Omanyte and Tirtouga + everything in B- into UR territory

100% behind this aswell, 90% of the B- gang are extremely hard to fit on teams not built around them. They seem like perfectly decent risk vs reward mons but the risks are almost never worth it aside from very niche situations. The only things I'd change are Ziggy for Corp cuz while both are terrible setup sweepers, atleast Corp can do 4 attack + eviolite and be usable, meanwhile Ziggy is both one dimensional and bad at its job.

Also something I found funny "wingull sucks use better water types like mareanie" and then "oh btw mareanie sucks now". Ik I'm misquoting it heavily, but I just found that kinda funny lol.

 

[Berks]

If we’re shuffling the whole rankings based on weakness to Grookey, why not go all the way?

to S
it has a meta-defining presence right now. It’s like if you gave ORAS Fletchling coverage and good stats. It is singlehandedly dropping entire pokemon from viability. It hits hard and cleans and sets up if it wants. More adaptation might change this later, but right now it’s hard to argue that Grookey shouldn’t be on your team, which to me sounds a lot like S.

 

[yellowfin]

just here to agree w/ a lot of noms.

agreed

DC's rises (pory, foongus, abra, pinch, runt, carv, natu, ashrew, fetch'd)
wingull B+
mare A-
grookey S

ok now for independent thought.

going to say that vulpix should stay a-. vulpix is very strong against many of grookey's checks/counters (steels, bulky poisons, etc) and, as a result, benefits greatly from grookey's increased usage. additionally, vulpix is still the best scarf user in current meta, and can serve as a secondary check to threatening sweepers just off of its high speed with a scarf, killing or putting them in range of other priority.

also going to nom spritzee down to b and mudbray down to b+.

sprit: poison types and steel types are very very good rn because of grook, meaning that every team should have an out to the mon. setup spam is also very strong, and having to take two turns to recover health is really bad for momentum against these teams. sprit kinda fails to be fat and check stuff in this meta, which is really bad for it. OTR is p much the only good set right now and even then it still loses to priority.

mudbray: literally have 0 idea what this mon does in this meta except be a "flying resist" that takes like 40 from vull every time. alternative setters either resist flying or at the very least check grookey. additionally, teams appreciate a sr setter that is neutral to fighting much less now, because teams already pack strong fighting resists for grookey. finally, it doesn't have a very good matchup against staryu, which is like the only hazard removal we have besides vullaby. mudbray still does cool stuff because stab eq off of 18 atk is super strong, but it struggles in current meta.

thats it thank u for reading !! excited to watch the meta develop and see if grookey is actually as good as we think it is rn. also lmk if i am misunderstanding roles of mons in this post, still new to swsh lc and more generally higher level thinking about mons :]

 

[pomfpomfpluff]

If we’re shuffling the whole rankings based on weakness to Grookey, why not go all the way?

to S
it has a meta-defining presence right now. It’s like if you gave ORAS Fletchling coverage and good stats. It is singlehandedly dropping entire pokemon from viability. It hits hard and cleans and sets up if it wants. More adaptation might change this later, but right now it’s hard to argue that Grookey shouldn’t be on your team, which to me sounds a lot like S.

I'm kinda on the fence on this nom, on one hand this thing is a menace, stab grassy terrain boosted life orb grassy glide pretty much obliterates any non resist and knock off lets it heavily cripple it's counters, but on the other hand, the fact that it has hard counters and isn't as 3 dimensional as the other S mons makes me want to keep it in A+. Then again, saying that it shouldn't be S tier cuz it's not as good as the top 2 mons in the tier doesn't really say much, so this thing in S wouldn't be the weirdest S nom I've seen.

mudbray: literally have 0 idea what this mon does in this meta except be a "flying resist" that takes like 40 from vull every time. alternative setters either resist flying or at the very least check grookey. additionally, teams appreciate a sr setter that is neutral to fighting much less now, because teams already pack strong fighting resists for grookey. finally, it doesn't have a very good matchup against staryu, which is like the only hazard removal we have besides vullaby. mudbray still does cool stuff because stab eq off of 18 atk is super strong, but it struggles in current meta.

It sits on most of the rocks leads which is cool ig, and sits on mienfoo which is cool, though losing to dewpider unless you get lucky kinda sucks Otherwise it's kind of meh, not too many useful resistances and the extra offense isn't that useful when it's easy U-turn fodder and has the staying power of a chocolate bar. I'm all for this drop.

 

[Fiend]

We have finally updated the VR to reflect the current metagame. We have also gone so far as to add a new C rank for all to find their favorite "neat" Pokemon in. Much has changed with this ranking, and you will find all the changes within the S through B ranks below. Also included are various Pokemon which failed to be worth ranking by our current evaluations.

I believe that these changes reflect the sentiment of the above nominations, though the assigned ranks largely differ as we shifted many Pokemon down.

gaming

Mienfoo S -> A+
Foongus A- -> A
Timburr A- -> A+
Wingull A- -> B
Magnemite A- -> B+
Mudbray A- -> B+
Ponyta-Galar A- -> B+
Vulpix A- -> B+
Mareanie A+ -> A
Scraggy A+ -> A-
Dewpider A+ -> B+
Amaura B -> B-
Dwebble B -> B-
Slowpoke B -> B-
Zigzagoon B -> C
Tyrunt B- -> B
Corphish B- -> C
Croagunk B- -> C
Shellder B- -> C
Trapinch B+ -> A
Abra B+ -> A-
Woobat B+ -> A-
Archen B+ -> B
Magby ur -> B
Sandshrew-Alola ur -> B
Carvanha ur -> B-
Elekid ur
Omanyte ur
Tirtouga ur
Axew ur
Budew ur
Charmander ur
Hippopotas ur
Pancham ur
Pumpkaboo-Super ur
Riolu ur
Salandit ur

 

[pomfpomfpluff]

We have finally updated the VR to reflect the current metagame. We have also gone so far as to add a new C rank for all to find their favorite "neat" Pokemon in. Much has changed with this ranking, and you will find all the changes within the S through B ranks below. Also included are various Pokemon which failed to be worth ranking by our current evaluations.

I believe that these changes reflect the sentiment of the above nominations, though the assigned ranks largely differ as we shifted many Pokemon down.

gaming

Mienfoo S -> A+
Foongus A- -> A
Timburr A- -> A+
Wingull A- -> B
Magnemite A- -> B+
Mudbray A- -> B+
Ponyta-Galar A- -> B+
Vulpix A- -> B+
Mareanie A+ -> A
Scraggy A+ -> A-
Dewpider A+ -> B+
Amaura B -> B-
Dwebble B -> B-
Slowpoke B -> B-
Zigzagoon B -> C
Tyrunt B- -> B
Corphish B- -> C
Croagunk B- -> C
Shellder B- -> C
Trapinch B+ -> A
Abra B+ -> A-
Woobat B+ -> A-
Archen B+ -> B
Magby ur -> B
Sandshrew-Alola ur -> B
Carvanha ur -> B-
Elekid ur
Omanyte ur
Tirtouga ur
Axew ur
Budew ur
Charmander ur
Hippopotas ur
Pancham ur
Pumpkaboo-Super ur
Riolu ur
Salandit ur

Aside from

Mienfoo S -> A+

I'm a big fan of the rankings, especially the cleanup of B- and the addition of a C (finally). Truth be told, a few of the B- --> UR mons have a shot at getting into C, mainly Tirtouga and Elekid Imo, though this mainly goes for Tirtouga since Elekid kinda sucks with all the trappers flying around, but it still has some nice coverage and can be kind of hard to switch into unless you have something like Chinchou (hint hint). Not gonna go into full detail because this isn't a full on nom cuz I hate both mons, but just some food for thought.

Also happy to see my boys Chinchou and Corphish ranked together :D.

 

[Peppermint Productions]

I’m not sure how far these mon should be moved, but I think tyrunt is (roughly) on par with onix, and I think the tiering should change to reflect that.

so both of these mon are decent vullaby checks, I won’t deny that both have a place as vull checks. I will also say that due to its higher defense stat, onix is a better vull counter.

however. I do believe that tyrunt is the stronger mon in general play, for a number of reasons. For starters, I has a much better matchup versus the remainder of the big three, with physical bulk sets living grassy glide after a vullaby knock off, and psychic fangs OHKOing foo after a single dragon dance. It also comes in for free against vulpix, whilst onix takes more damage than you might like from overheat or fire blast for a rock type due to its middling special defense, and energy ball is a death sentence if onix isn’t at 100% HP. Dragon is an excellent defensive typing, since the only mon they legitimately threatens you with a fairy move is spritzee, and ice types don’t take too much of a liking to rock blast.

reasons to use onix as the vull counter
+ Better at countering vullaby
+ Ground stab is helpful, especially on a mon able to deal with flying types
+ sturdy is cool
+ can set rocks
- relatively easy to shut down after dragon dancing up compared to tyrunt
- it’s physically defensive mon that gets mauled by two of the three biggest physically offensive threats, grookey doesn’t care how much you invested in defense, you’re still dead.
- underwhelming special defense means it’s very vulnerable and not hard to threaten with special mon (or just mienfoo/grookey) meaning it often either sits in the back getting little to no use, or is one of your first mon to die

reasons to use tyrunt as the vull counter
+ OHKOs mienfoo, almost always OHKOs vullaby after a Dragon dance, OHKOs ferroseed, mareanie, koffing (including levitate)
+ really hard to shut down once set up, resists fake out, grookey is threatening still, but not a death sentence
+ Hard vulpix counter
+ has strong defensive typing
+ berry juice sturdy sets are possible, trading psychic fang strength for longevity, also adding
- limited utility outside of setup, including no rocks
- worse, but still good, at countering vullaby
- no form of recovery for lost health (onix doesn’t have this either, but it hurts tyrunt more)

I’m not saying that tyrunt is better, but I do think it has important advantages and deserves to be higher on this list, especially if vullaby isn’t banned, (I don’t think it will be). Also, if it didn’t counter vullaby, none of y’all would use onix, let’s be real.


Also Vulpix I think should move up a tier to A-. The meta is slowing down a lot, with slower, bulky offense and stall cores increasing in strength. Therefore, specs vullaby is a really strong set now, since 17 speed is now pretty fast compared to the meta. Specs overheat kills all of the big three, and energy ball is even better at scoring KOs on switch in. Mareanie is a notable counter, until you realise extrasensory is a 2HKO, so that’s also a valid option. With extrasensory, there is not a single meta threat that isn’t at least a 2HKO if you predict. Look at the A+ tier right now, then the A, energy ball + overheat + extrasensory is a 2HKO on every single one. The only mon that lives a hit and is faster than vulpix is staryu, and that thing takes 80% from energy ball, so it’s hardly gonna take another one later. Also worth mentioning that if knocked off, mareanie is now a 2HKO even without extrasensory. Sash mon such as trapinch or abra can be an issue but stealth rock covers trapinch, and I don’t have an excuse for abra, but it is left on 1 HP. But I cannot stress enough that, with correct predictions, this Pokemon is a monster. Even if it requires a free turn to get in, it’s gonna make use of that free turn like HELL.

This mon is as good as the player using it, and is simultaneously so brain dead that just pressing haha overheat go brr has won me tours, and I’m an idiot.

(Last note: chinchou should be b minuuuuusss....)

mod edit: avoid double posting

 

[qweschuning]

Mienfoo S
Grookey S
Trapinch A+
Natu B+
Tyrunt B+/A-

Wingull C
Archen B-
Slowpoke C

My S noms shouldnt need explaining...
GG go Brr...
CC or HJK you will not escape these hands...

Trap to A because it forces the most centralizing mon in the tier to run a move... also phat sets eat hits ig

Natu to B+ because the scene hasnt fully caught on to HO screens but if and when it does, it'll prove itself a worthy nom

Tyrunt to B+ because of its ability to soft check vull. A- for its effectiveness at sweeping/breaking and the flexibilty of sturdy/juice sets

Wingull is bad... it only truly threatens foo. scarf doesnt care.... evi/juice has switch ins and generally doesnt want to come in to it. grook generally ohkos w glide, definitely so if not carrying evi. vull should be phat enough to live lo hurricane... but it has to land... and even then its probably a roll... as a matter of fact my wifi is good holdup...
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
236 SpA Life Orb Wingull Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 16)



236 SpA Life Orb Wingull Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Vullaby: 19-23 (82.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

...1/16... on 1 set... 70% of the time... IF vull has no HP on the set...
being somewhat of a jack of all trades it is allowed to master none given the tiers climate. R.I.P. ORAS

Archen to B- ...I really wish i had more of a reason to slot archen lower but its a fairly decent mon ngl... however knock+defeatist destroy archens viability on a game to game basis with or without BJ, eviolite or roost.

Slowpoke to C because Slowpoke hates every mon in the big 3... playing slowpoke guarantee that in any given match up, between 17-50% OR MORE of the opposing team will not care about this mon... slowpoke just dropped to LCRU... its legit a fire mon... but the tier is very hostile to its existence

 

[Arts and stuff]

i would like to present the proposition of fomantis being a fellow sweeper along with grookey because of it's ability, contrary. +2 special attack stack buff is amazing and it can learn endure to guarantee it surviving an attack. fomantis could also pair with vulpix to get weather ball fire and catch steel types hoping to wall it.

 

[Peppermint Productions]

Fomantis is bad unless under webs, but even then it ain’t great, however, the weather ball thing is interesting. Might be worth a try on ladder, see if somebody can make a good team around it

 

[Peppermint Productions]

Pawniard is a good mon on paper, but I would argue it’s A-, no A+ tier mon has that awful of a matchup spread vs the vull/grookey meta. Let’s take a look

vullaby
Stop pretending this mon counters vullaby. It’s either going to have u-turn or heat wave. If it has heat wave you lose, if it has u turn it has a positive matchup sure, but it’s not exactly a fully winning matchup even then, since vullaby resists knock off, and steel is hardly a difficult type to switch into, so when you try to deal any kind of damage, they can switch out fairly safely. Also if it’s special you die

mienfoo
Lose. Duh

grookey
You can’t safely pressure grookey with pawniard when half the sets run drain punch. Sure it wins sometimes, but you can’t bank on it without risking losing an entire mon, when best case scenario, you have a slightly winning matchup

onix
EQ go brr, sure you get some damage but it’s not going to be worth the trade, plus most sets outspeed you

Diglett
See onix, but you get more sucker damage. Still a t

timburr
Ha. Haha. Now DIE

ferroseed
You get knock off, cool. You get paralysed in return, plus you then can have hazards stacked on you. I would say this is slightly winning for pawn, but if you trade an item and damage for a para, then they switch into something else, you usually aren’t better off. But you do kill it

Trapinch
Eq go die, you do outspeed for a knock off now though

Koffing
Fire blast

mareanie
Knock off is great, this is winning. Oh wait, now you get stalled by recover. But wait, this is still winning with iron head flinch hax? Until you get burned by a scald, which could happen turn one, so you can’t really stay in safely. Swords dance sets are cool, but if you get burned you have to SD up multiple times and you’ll just take too much scald chip. Never mind

Foongus
You have knock off, but then you get spored allowing people to go into any one of multiple hard counter, or use you as setup bait

Staryu
Offensive sets outspeed and 2HKO you, defensive sets will threaten a scald burn and one they get that, recover city, but the scalds still do enough damage that you aren’t safe to swords dance up. You get knock off though?

porygon
Is this? A winning matchup? I’m shocked. You don’t take anything from the agility coverage, scarf sets do decent damage with thunder bolt, still not great damage but that’s only if they aren’t already locked into something else. Good job! Now back to the basement we go...

Abra
This is winning... so long as they aren’t running sash + counter/submission. Even then, just follow up with priority for a kill. Good job. This is an A- though, don’t get too smug

vulpix
You can’t switch in, and unless you’ve already weakened it, sucker won’t kill (unless SD/Defiant) and guess what? You die in a single hit! Any set will outspeed you since everything is 17 speed now and 16 is a trash speed tier in comparison.

scraggy
Setup bait. You aren’t just dying, you’re actively killing other Pokemon on your team. Good job

woobat
Usually shutting it down, sucker punch won’t kill if it’s at higher hp though, and you will die to heat wave, so another mon has to die to soften it up, or you have to die, then get something else to finish the job. So not perfect, but hey, it’s still good

so in conclusion, you lose to almost the entire A+ tier, most of the A- tier and vulpix. In exchange, you have an inconsistent matchup vs mareanie, slightly win vs ferroseed, beating porygon, shutting down woobat, killing abra, but sometimes dying and leaving it at 1HP, bearing in mind abra is still really valuable at 1HP. Oh yeah and it beats webs, a dying archetype if ever there was.

pawniard’s game plan consists of hitting things with a strong knock off, then lying down and letting them roll all over you and either kill you or use you as setup bait to kill you and two other mon. You get a good turn, then you have nothing to stop them just hitting you with their game plan either accepting that you will be losing after the first turn, or switch out, and lose momentum as they get to continue applying chip damage and pressure.

pawniard has two big issues.

1. In a game that when broken down,comes down to matchups, pawniard doesn’t have great ones compared to how other A tier mon either have consistent coverage or the raw strength to win enough matchups to be viable.

2. It doesn’t have a game plan. It’s a tough spot like foongus in that is has a great turn one, then can’t get a lot of reward off it. Difference is, foongus can easily go into other mon, retain momentum and benefit their game plan, and whist pawniard does weaken mon well, it doesn’t have a way to convert off of that pressure well, and whilst it’s good at softening up mon for a sweep, endgame, or win condition, other mon just do it’s job better.

(Please note: it is quite good at softening up mon, don’t get me wrong, but it doesn’t have enough else to warrant an A or A+ tier placing, since it trades poorly, often dying, in order to get that softening)

 

[Expulso]

abra: a- -> a

abra is legit a massive threat and i have no idea why it's in a-. 19 speed, psychic + dgleam is almost perfect coverage, and it can fit techs like submission / fire punch on LO sets to destroy its only common reliable switch-ins, ferro and pawn. additionally, sash + twave handles cheese very well. sure it cant switch into much at all but once it's in it is arguably the scariest mon to go up against.

 

[Peppermint Productions]

Sure, switching in on abra is tough, but so is switching in with abra, since it’s so unbelievably frail

plus sure, it kills off a switch in vs many mon. However, it isn’t quite strong enough to get OHKO’s itself and stuff will do equal or greater damage to it, plus grookey slobbers on it

it usually loses to scarfers, in fact, usually is an understatement.

plus, if you do have ferroseed, undeniably the best wall in the tier, with really freaking high usage, the entire mon is invalidated unless you run fire punch

A- is just fine

 

[MK007]

Meowth C -> UR

Meowth has seen a sharp downturn in usage this gen due to meta shifts and being completely outclassed by other priority users such as Grassy Glide Grookey, Feint Mienfoo, or Quick Attack Eevee. Additionally, hard counters such as ferroseed, pawnaird, and klink come in for free on Meowth now that Hidden Power Fire/Fighting is no longer an option. Finally, Meowth is setup bait for acid armor Frillish which is unacceptable in Year of our Meowth 2021.

 

[ojr]

Meowth C -> UR

Meowth has seen a sharp downturn in usage this gen due to meta shifts and being completely outclassed by other priority users such as Grassy Glide Grookey, Feint Mienfoo, or Quick Attack Eevee. Additionally, hard counters such as ferroseed, pawnaird, and klink come in for free on Meowth now that Hidden Power Fire/Fighting is no longer an option. Finally, Meowth is setup bait for acid armor Frillish which is unacceptable in Year of our Meowth 2021.

this is probably the best thing you have posted recently

 

[Superperson00]

Pawniard is a good mon on paper, but I would argue it’s A-, no A+ tier mon has that awful of a matchup spread vs the vull/grookey meta. Let’s take a look

vullaby
Stop pretending this mon counters vullaby. It’s either going to have u-turn or heat wave. If it has heat wave you lose, if it has u turn it has a positive matchup sure, but it’s not exactly a fully winning matchup even then, since vullaby resists knock off, and steel is hardly a difficult type to switch into, so when you try to deal any kind of damage, they can switch out fairly safely. Also if it’s special you die

mienfoo
Lose. Duh

grookey
You can’t safely pressure grookey with pawniard when half the sets run drain punch. Sure it wins sometimes, but you can’t bank on it without risking losing an entire mon, when best case scenario, you have a slightly winning matchup

onix
EQ go brr, sure you get some damage but it’s not going to be worth the trade, plus most sets outspeed you

Diglett
See onix, but you get more sucker damage. Still a t

timburr
Ha. Haha. Now DIE

ferroseed
You get knock off, cool. You get paralysed in return, plus you then can have hazards stacked on you. I would say this is slightly winning for pawn, but if you trade an item and damage for a para, then they switch into something else, you usually aren’t better off. But you do kill it

Trapinch
Eq go die, you do outspeed for a knock off now though

Koffing
Fire blast

mareanie
Knock off is great, this is winning. Oh wait, now you get stalled by recover. But wait, this is still winning with iron head flinch hax? Until you get burned by a scald, which could happen turn one, so you can’t really stay in safely. Swords dance sets are cool, but if you get burned you have to SD up multiple times and you’ll just take too much scald chip. Never mind

Foongus
You have knock off, but then you get spored allowing people to go into any one of multiple hard counter, or use you as setup bait

Staryu
Offensive sets outspeed and 2HKO you, defensive sets will threaten a scald burn and one they get that, recover city, but the scalds still do enough damage that you aren’t safe to swords dance up. You get knock off though?

porygon
Is this? A winning matchup? I’m shocked. You don’t take anything from the agility coverage, scarf sets do decent damage with thunder bolt, still not great damage but that’s only if they aren’t already locked into something else. Good job! Now back to the basement we go...

Abra
This is winning... so long as they aren’t running sash + counter/submission. Even then, just follow up with priority for a kill. Good job. This is an A- though, don’t get too smug

vulpix
You can’t switch in, and unless you’ve already weakened it, sucker won’t kill (unless SD/Defiant) and guess what? You die in a single hit! Any set will outspeed you since everything is 17 speed now and 16 is a trash speed tier in comparison.

scraggy
Setup bait. You aren’t just dying, you’re actively killing other Pokemon on your team. Good job

woobat
Usually shutting it down, sucker punch won’t kill if it’s at higher hp though, and you will die to heat wave, so another mon has to die to soften it up, or you have to die, then get something else to finish the job. So not perfect, but hey, it’s still good

so in conclusion, you lose to almost the entire A+ tier, most of the A- tier and vulpix. In exchange, you have an inconsistent matchup vs mareanie, slightly win vs ferroseed, beating porygon, shutting down woobat, killing abra, but sometimes dying and leaving it at 1HP, bearing in mind abra is still really valuable at 1HP. Oh yeah and it beats webs, a dying archetype if ever there was.

pawniard’s game plan consists of hitting things with a strong knock off, then lying down and letting them roll all over you and either kill you or use you as setup bait to kill you and two other mon. You get a good turn, then you have nothing to stop them just hitting you with their game plan either accepting that you will be losing after the first turn, or switch out, and lose momentum as they get to continue applying chip damage and pressure.

pawniard has two big issues.

1. In a game that when broken down,comes down to matchups, pawniard doesn’t have great ones compared to how other A tier mon either have consistent coverage or the raw strength to win enough matchups to be viable.

2. It doesn’t have a game plan. It’s a tough spot like foongus in that is has a great turn one, then can’t get a lot of reward off it. Difference is, foongus can easily go into other mon, retain momentum and benefit their game plan, and whist pawniard does weaken mon well, it doesn’t have a way to convert off of that pressure well, and whilst it’s good at softening up mon for a sweep, endgame, or win condition, other mon just do it’s job better.

(Please note: it is quite good at softening up mon, don’t get me wrong, but it doesn’t have enough else to warrant an A or A+ tier placing, since it trades poorly, often dying, in order to get that softening)

While some of this can be attested to, a lot of your argument here can be refuted against quite easily.

calc wall

Vullaby:
236 Atk Vullaby U-turn vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 5-6 (23.8 - 28.5%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO
236+ SpA Vullaby Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

156 Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Vullaby: 7-9 (30.4 - 39.1%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO

The Nasty Plot set is effective, but Vullaby's physical set is far more common on ladder and doesn't land enough chip to reliably stop Pawniard in its tracks. Vullaby tanks a Sucker Punch well, but it can't safely abuse that with a Weak Armour switch in when doing so risks an immediate 55-65% damage between a possible Iron Head and Rocks.

Mienfoo:
0 Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 40-52 (190.4 - 247.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

156 Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 76 HP / 196+ Def Mienfoo: 10-13 (45.4 - 59%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Mienfoo will always win on predict, but the speed disadvantage to Pawniard cripples Mienfoo's performance and forces players to go through mind games. Bait and switch players win solid chip damage through Knock Off and Iron Head, and even run the occasional Inner Focus to get a free hit on Mienfoo and Meowth. Pawniard teams have enough checks against Fighting types that players can't mindlessly push for HJK kills.

Grookey:
236 Atk Life Orb Grookey Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 26-31 (123.8 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 Atk Life Orb Grookey Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard in Grassy Terrain: 4-6 (19 - 28.5%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Grookey: 10-13 (47.6 - 61.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Drain Punch invalidates Sucker Punch, which does hard counter Pawniard, yes. The only (weak) argument I can make is that the Smogon Teambuilder is still providing 0 Spe Investment Grookey autoformatting months after it became a common set, but that's not something high ladder players really face.

Onix:
236 Atk Onix Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 14-20 (66.6 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO//6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 236 Atk Onix Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 24-30 (114.2 - 142.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

156 Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Onix: 12-14 (60 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
156 Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Onix: 14-18 (70 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Onix: 7-9 (35 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Regardless of whether Onix is still holding an Eviolite, Pawniard does win a balanced share of 1v1s. Trading an Earthquake for an Iron Head, followed by Sucker Punch on -1 Weak Armour sets, which are taking majority now that Sturdy is losing traction, means that Onix doesn't want to regularly enter this fight. Rock Head sets do fare better in this scenario, however, especially if DD has already been set up.

Diglett:
236 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 14-20 (66.6 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Diglett Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Diglett Final Gambit vs. 0 HP Pawniard: 18-18 (85.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Diglett: 15-18 (83.3 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
156 Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 16-21 (88.8 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 15-18 (83.3 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Diglett only comes out on top with its Eviolite set and SR already up; it doesn't make it past any other scenario.

Timburr:
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 24-28 (114.2 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'm not going to even attempt to argue this one.

Ferroseed:
156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 84 HP / 188+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 7-9 (31.8 - 40.9%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 84 HP / 188+ Def Ferroseed: 7-10 (31.8 - 45.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

Ferroseed is a bleak 3-4HKO, but it doesn't have any reliable check against Pawniard. It can slow it down, but it's not pulling a Rocky Balboa any time soon.

Trapinch:
36 Atk Trapinch First Impression vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 5-7 (23.8 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
36 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
36 Atk Trapinch Superpower vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 28-36 (133.3 - 171.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off/Sucker Punch/Iron Head (97.5 BP) vs. 156 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Trapinch: 7-10 (30.4 - 43.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
156 Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 156 HP / 236+ Def Trapinch: 10-13 (43.4 - 56.5%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO

This is Ferroseed's situation in reverse. Pawniard can cripple Trapinch effectively, preventing it from walling many more mons afterwards, but there's no conceivable way Pawniard can win.

Koffing:
196 SpA Koffing Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Koffing: 7-10 (33.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
156 Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Koffing: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO

If Rocks are up, Pawniard actually wins about 6/10 of the time; on average, the damage trade goes something like Pawniard Knock Off for 40.45%, Koffing Fire Blast for 73.75%, Pawniard Iron Head for 90.4% total damage dealt. Whether Rocks are up or not determines how the game goes.

Mareanie:
92 SpA Mareanie Scald vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 196 HP / 20+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO//12.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Mareanie stalls out to a victory in Scald/Recover vs Knock Off trades, but the chip damage is fairly equal both ways. where Pawniard shines in this scenario is in its ability to safely pivot back and forth to another Poison Type to get rid of Toxic Spikes, free of recompense; Mareanie can't achieve anything spectacular against Pawniard, but the same goes both ways.

Foongus:
0 SpA Foongus Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 3-4 (14.2 - 19%) -- possible 6HKO

156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 124 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Pawniard hard blocks Sludge Bomb and shrugs off Giga Drain; Spore is a threat, but it can only affect one mon at a time. Provided the Pawniard's team has accessible rotation, Foongus loses.

Staryu:
196 SpA Life Orb Staryu Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 13-17 (61.9 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Staryu Scald vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Staryu: 15-18 (78.9 - 94.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Staryu: 10-13 (52.6 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Staryu: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Staryu's defensive set is no Mareanie, and it's offensive set doesn't keep up. Pawniard wins the average encounter.

Porygon:
lmao

Abra:
236 SpA Life Orb Abra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO

156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 44-54 (231.5 - 284.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 32-38 (168.4 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Focus Sash/Counter needs to be ran on Abra for there to be any chance of getting around Pawniard. This encounter has singlehandedly driven Life Orb Abra into extinction.

Vulpix:
196 SpA Vulpix Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard in Sun: 30-36 (142.8 - 171.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Vulpix: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Vulpix: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

While Vulpix can't switch in, it wins the 1v1 given its natural outspeed and the abundance of scarf sets. This encounter particularly highlights how much Pawniard benefits off of Rocks.

Scraggy:
236+ Atk Scraggy High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 48-60 (228.5 - 285.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

156 Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Scraggy: 12-15 (54.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Pawniard definitely isn't winning the 1v1, but like Vulpix, it hard negates a safe switch in.

Woobat:
0 SpA Woobat Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 10-14 (47.6 - 66.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Woobat Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 76 HP / 252+ Def Woobat: 24-30 (100 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 76 HP / 252+ Def Woobat: 18-24 (75 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

If Woobat's already set up with Calm Mind, it has roughly a 25% chance; first it needs to win the speed tie (Assuming Pawniard doesn't opt for Sucker Punch) and then it needs to land the OHKO on Heat Wave. Otherwise, Pawniard wins almost every single fight.

Running through the calcs, Pawniard checks and denies the majority of LC's best and brightest. While heavily dependant on Rocks and a safe switch in against Foongus, Mareanie and Timburr, its presence prevents a safe switch into what could otherwise counter it and forces opponents to either sacrifice a mon for the hopeful revenge kill or run specific sets like Focus Sash/Counter Abra and Rock Head Onix to maintain relevancy. Porygon's vulnerability to Pawniard is a large factor of Trapinch's ascent to A, given their popular synergy.

Aside from perhaps Grookey, Pawniard is the only Pokemon in A+ that reached the tier by walling the rest of the meta, instead of directly countering Vullaby and its symbiotic partners. It may not be as centralising as Vullaby, but I'd argue that Pawniard is one of the very limited few that should be placed into consideration for S ranking.

 

[Peppermint Productions]

I’m willling to admit being wrong here, but I am yet to see how pawniard ‘denies the majority of LC’s best and brightest’

let’s be generous and assume ‘best and brightest’ to be the entire S and A tiers

here is the (to the best of my knowledge) comprehensive list of mon in this category it walls consistently:

ferroseed
porygon

Okaaay. If they don’t run a coverage move that invalidates you?

Vullaby
Abra
Grookey

Still not worderful

Matchups that rely on lucky flinches or winning 50:50s?

woobat
Mareanie

that is seven mon. In the perfect world it has a 7 winning matchups out of the top 17 mon.

the mon that outright beat you without special coverage
mienfoo
Timburr
Scraggy
Diglett
Trapinch
Onix
Staryu
Koffing
Foongus

now toss in mon the beat it with coverage:

vullaby (heat wave is pretty common, to the point where you cannot safely expect to wall it without taking 33% for your trouble)

Grookey (you better fucking hope he doesn’t have drain punch, otherwise not only did you die, but he likely recovered health in the process)

abra (admittedly you do get to take him down to 1HP in this scenario.

And now mon that beat you unless you get lucky on a 50:50 or get flinchhax, and are generally losing matchups on the whole:

woobat
Mareanie

and now mon that could parahax you

ferroseed


Realistically you have roughly 5 winning matchups out of 17, and 2 more shaky ones you normally lose, but two of those winning matchups could just suddenly pull out a coverage move and then you’re fucked,

“Pawniard walls the majority of LC’s best and brightest” is blatantly inaccurate

I’m still open to an argument in favour of pawn being worth it since I mean, maybe its five (at best) positive matchups outweigh the other 12, vullaby is in there, if only some sets. But don’t try and say it beat most of LC’s best and brightest.

Even if you have a hyper strict definition (S and A+) it’s still only three out of seven, with the two strongest of your winning matchups able to run coverage to invalidate you, coverage that has plenty of other uses outside of that matchup.


quick edit: went over the MU wall again, I’ll concede koffing, are people running slow foo again? Pretty sure this ‘speed disadvantage’ you speak of don’t exist for most sets. Something i find a touch disingenuous, even if unintentional, is that in almost all of these you have rocks up on their side but not yours, which is of course, unrealistic most of the time. Foongus doesn’t lose, it gets to either click spore or rotate to predict a switch, but this mind game will usually favour the foongus. If it gets off a spore it gains momentum with a free in, if it gets a double predict, it gets to gain momentum and gets, again, a free switch. Your 6HKO calc is near meaningless since unless this is a late game you don’t stay in against a sleeping pawniard, your staryu calcs rely on rocks, and that 2HKO after rocks vs the defensive set isn’t gonna stick after a recover, and if youkeep clicking it, you are just asking for foo to come ruin your day, or a sac of a low HP mon into a trapper. The woobat. Am I crazy, or is 0 special attack investment dumb on a Pokemon that resists most of the things faster that it, sets up insane defenses in a single turn anyway, and can just killa pawn after one boost with any kind of investment. Also, a woobat isn’t going to come in against you and try to set up. Good job? It gets plenty other oppurtunities and there isn’t exactly much difficulty in forcing it out when it has so many ways to just die.

 

[Fiend]

Peppermint Productions Superperson00 You both have a weird fascination with examining game states as rigid, and ignoring that sequences in Pokemon are not strict 1v1s or otherwise limited to the degree that the above argument requires them to be. I do not think this conversation is particularly productive as the main draws of Pawniard are flexibility and a variety of nice additions it provides the team (sucker punch, hardish Porygon answer, physical vulla answer, sr). The fact that it loses to Fighting-types and can be picked with coverage options is nothing new.

You have essentially reached the proper conclusion that Pawniard is a poor hard check to most Pokemon in the tier, and can be chipped or otherwise negated with special preparation. I feel that you fail to extend your examination beyond interacting with KOs. This does not invalidate its usage even if it is limiting of. While most Pokemon can KO Pawniard or otherwise chip it, there is often little reason for them to stay in and chew the Knock Off that's incoming, with the main exceptions being Vullaby or teams specifically seeking to remove Pawniard for something like Scarf Porygon. Pawniard piles on a lot of cross-pressure against slower Pokemon while Sucker Punch plus other priority (Mach Punch, Grassy Glide, First Impression) ends up making Pawniard a fairly proactive addition to a team. It is also incredibly valuable to check Porygon and Abra this well with a single slot, though again additional offensive pressure is required to actually win versus them.

I'm willing to agree that the characteristics of Pawniard may no longer warrant it a place in A+, but the common Pawniard + Trapinch builds out there prove to be fairly flexible and generally fit into an idea of "bring solid and outplay." The success of these teams and the ability to manage a wide variety of other common constructions should be indicative that the specific niche of Pawniard is highly valued.

 

[Arts and stuff]

this chats been dead for a hot min so here's a hot take:
onix> pawniard in the stealth rock/wall breaker department.
they both have similar weaknesses as fast fighting types swamp them both but unlike pawniard, onix has sturdy and dragon dance which allows it to not only out speed, but deal big damage in the process. this is also backed by the vull match up. pawnaird is usually nuetral or negative matchup to vull because of knock and heat wave. onix not only out speed but can also one hit it if rock blast hits enough times (3-5 depending on the vull set) proving even further that onix is a better wall breaker because of eq because super effective to mareinie.and can be a potential sweeper with 1-2 dragondances set up.

 

[Fiend]

I forgot to note some small changes:
Porygon mid A -> A+
Magnemite B+ -> A-
Frillish B- -> B+
Charmander UR -> B-

We are reranking Charmander, again, given the potency of sun teams and the durability of the strategy. Who knew clicking a very powerful attack repeatedly is strong?

There is some discussion to be had on where Ferroseed best sits, though this is mostly a conversation on if indicating Ferroseed as the best mid A rank or the worst A+ mon is more sensible. As an observation of the rankings themselves, I do feel the top heavy A+ is fairly representative of what is going on in the metagame. The thinner ranks below are generally successful indication of the "goodness" and ease of use for each individual Pokemon.

 

[Peppermint Productions]

Tyrunt to B+

it’s an incredibly potent sweeper, at +1 it kills most Pokemon at full hp due to nigh unfair coverage, high attack, and the ability to break sash. We’re all aware of how big of a threat this mon is at +1, and if it gets to +2 the game is effectively over unless you can OHKO it with priority, and +2 isn’t unrealistic, with screens up against a safe mon, they have to switch out, then try to OHKO you otherwise berry juice will trigger, but of course with screens up that is often unrealistic, +2 in exchange for a berry juice isn’t uncommon.

but of course when I say a ‘safe mon’ I mean a very solid amount of Pokemon. One of tyrunt’s biggest strengths is the sheer amount of Pokemon it can get to +1 or even +2 on safely. Vulpix becomes near worthless since tyrunt can come in and get set up easily, vullaby gets a knock off, but then it’s facing down an angry little dinosaur. One partner I have used is vulpix, which functions as a useful scarf cleaner, but also as a memento user, if you can get it in when screens are up, it can memento, and then you are forced out whilst the tyrunt gets to +1, than +2 since with screens up, foo HJK does slightly over half, all of which is healed by berry juice, or you can hit it with a knock off, but either way it gets to +2 almost guaranteed, at which point unless you have multiple priority users, or get a lucky miss, the game is over. This mon is consistently a solid win on or mid game sweeper to clear for a cleaner if you can’t get to +2. A game where tyrunt doesn’t set up and kill something is insanely rare.

amaura to B

I don’t think this mon is a great hail setter, it’s to frail to last king, and with eviolite it doesn’t get the icy rock turns it needs so badly. That said, this mon is very good when used as ferroseed, role compression addition. Sash amaura with stealth rocks and Aurora veil works wonders combined with thunder wave. It can act as your average sash rocker with thunder wave, but also threatens Aurora veil. This means that you have the option to, if rocks aren’t going to be as helpful, go for veil instead of rocks. This allows you to start going for more setup turns than would otherwise be viable, and in the case of a free paralysis turn, get both rocks and veil. In addition,Pokemon that would otherwise 2hko you may not be able to in veil, again, allowing you to get both. This does come at the cost of a lost explosion, which is difficult however.I’m not going to advocate for this mon over sash ferro on every team, the damage and momentum of explosion is difficult to pass up, but I think it is a legitimately valuable alternative, worthy of B tier.


litten to C

its a fast pivot with intimidate and parting shot, it can will o wisp physical attackers, flare blitz is good coverage on teams that don’t already have fire types, and it gets some good calcs, like how fake out + flare blitz OHKOs pawniard. Plus it can be run as a bulkier slow pivot which uses a parting shot pivot to set up a sweep by scraggy or tyrunt. At least worth a ranking

 

[PyProd]

Hello!

Today I'll be advocating for Frillish's rise in A-. I find it to not really be on par with the rest of B+ which have, in comparison, fallen off a bit recently.

Even though it is a bit underused and weak to the two best mons Grookey and Vullaby, I find Frillish to have actually been favored by metagame trends recently. A lot of Porygon and Abra have surged and Frillish is as of yet the only non-steel type to be able to check them, thanks to its naturally-high Special Defense (Onix is a kind of shaky non-steel Porygon check in my opinion). It is also a particularly solid Water-type to choose from, due to putting a hell of a stop to any Fire-type crossing its path just like Mareanie, without the latter's susceptibility to being trapped, as it is a Ghost-type. This particularly comes in handy with the rise of Fire-spam as the preferred cheese archetype. This Ghost-type can also make people consider clicking High Jump Kick in a pinch, and makes Knock Off much more predictable, and therefore switches to your knock absorber easier.

In addition, its ability Cursed Body and its huge bulk can invalidate super effective coverage which it can stomach quite easily numerous times to get the upper hand in a game. As such, it can even withstand Staryu's Thunderbolts, Vulpix's Energy Balls and even the rare Energy Balls from Abra and so on easily. That ability can even let it win 1v1s against would-be checks to Water-types normally such as Foongus (if something has already been put to sleep), and it can make switches telegraphed on the long run. Its burn-inflicting Will-o-Wisps or Scalds can capitalize on those switches to Vullabies or Pawniards which would like to scare it away with the threat of a super effective Knock Off, which can prove invaluable throughout the course of a game, as a burned Pawniard is essentially known for being a dead slot and a burned Vullaby is easier to check. These burns can favor positionning, as a lot of Pokémon like this kind of support, and Frillish can fire off strong Hexes as well.

But Frillish's appeal doesn't stop to what it can accomplish in a game. Being able to stop Porygon and Abra with your Water-type slot opens up another slot for building (which you would have maybe used for a steel type), which lets you have some more freedom at building: you can namely use it for a trapper (so that opposing scarved Porygon that would try to lock into Thunderbolt get revenge-trapped) or a catchall such as Abra or Vullaby, the latter of which is easier than ever to slap on Frillish teams thanks to packing hazard removal options. Moreover, the shaky-ish Pawniard as a Vullaby check can be swapped for the much more reliable at its job Onix, because an Abra and Porygon check is therefore not needed anymore. On an in-game perspective, if you're still using Pawniard, you can keep it healthy more easily because it will only have to check Vullaby, which can sometimes prove detrimental.

I get that Frillish's lack of Regenerator and Knock Off and of Rapid Spin and raw speed, as well as weakness to the common Knock Off make Mareanie and Staryu preferred over Frillish most of the time as bulky Water-types, but I really think it is above things like Dewpider, Mudbray and Spritzee in terms of viability at the moment. Please correct me if I am mistaken, though.