Resource SWSH LC Viability Rankings

[Shandeur]

I'm personally going to nominate a mon that should be on the Viability Rankings. Minccino is a mon that I didn't really care much for before today, as I had generally thought the Skill Link abuser was done better by Shellder. (Who I personally don't think is that good.)


Minccino is a good wallbreaker/cleaner due to Skill Link Tail Slap. This lets it break down walls that try to come in. Getting access to great support moves such as Knock Off and U-Turn is also highly appreciated. It also has a great speed tier for the meta, outrunning the extremely meta defining Mienfoo at Max Speed with a +Speed Nature. This also lets it outspeed many other metagame superstars such as Natu. There's three main sets I used for Minccino when playing with it on ladder.

The Sets

Choice Scarf

Minccino @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Skill Link
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Tail Slap
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Triple Axel

Life Orb

Minccino @ Life Orb
Ability: Skill Link
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tail Slap
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Triple Axel

Eviolite

Minccino @ Eviolite
Ability: Skill Link
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tail Slap
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Triple Axel

Minccino's role is simple: Break walls down. Most walls cannot switch in safely, as Tail Slap deals out a 2HKO to some of the best walls. Foongus also takes a hefty chunk from Triple Axel.

196 Atk Minccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Koffing: 15-20 (71.4 - 95.2%) -- approx. 2HKO

196 Atk Minccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 196 HP / 20+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 15-20 (62.5 - 83.3%) -- approx. 2HKO

196 Atk Minccino Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 124 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- approx. 2HKO

Choice Scarf was my more favored of the three sets, as it got the jump on two of the biggest mons in the meta: Abra, and Diglett. With this, Minccino cleanly OHKOs Abra with Tail Slap, and it's not even close. Same goes for Diglett, even if it has Eviolite.

196+ Atk Minccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 30-35 (157.8 - 184.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

196+ Atk Minccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Diglett: 20-30 (105.2 - 157.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But wait! What about priority such as Grookey's Grassy Glide? Fear not! Minccino can also run Eviolite over Choice Scarf. Before, it could take a grassy glide most of the time, but would get OHKO'd if Grookey's team got rocks up. Now, it completely turns the tables on Grookey, as Minccino can take a Grassy Glide, even with rocks up.

236 Atk Life Orb Grookey Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Minccino in Grassy Terrain: 13-17 (59 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery.

This also brings the up the problem of Timburr. Wouldn't Timburr's Mach Punch stop Minccino from wrecking havoc? Well, if it's running a non-eviolite set, yes. But if the Minccino is running Eviolite, and Timburr switches into Tail Slap, Minccino can beat Timburr one on one.

196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Minccino: 14-18 (63.6 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In some situations, Minccino can even deal with the best mon in the tier: Mienfoo. If Mienfoo tries to come in and eats a Tail Slap, (It does not matter if Minccino has a Life Orb or not.) Mienfoo cannot stay in, as it will die to the next Tail Slap. (I also forgot to mention that it doesn't even need Adamant to do so: Letting it run Jolly and beat Mienfoo that try to come in outspeed and OHKO.)

196 Atk Minccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 15-20 (71.4 - 95.2%) -- approx. 2HKO

With the variety of sets, Minccino's versatility can be very good for a team. Do you bring in your Abra and try to outspeed and risk getting demolished by Scarf? Or do you go to Mienfoo and get destroyed by the Life Orb set? I even heard mentions of using a move like Encore to lock a mon into a move that isn't convenient, or even Thunder Wave to cripple a switch-in like Ferroseed.

Counterplay

Minccino can very easily be abused by mons such as Ferroseed or Larvesta. The 5 hit nature of Tail Slap can be very bad for Minccino when facing a foe like these. However, neither of these mons want to switch into a Knock Off or U-Turn, leaving Ferroseed being vulnerable to a mon such as Trapinch, and leaving Larvesta vulnerable to a mon like Tyrunt.

Timburr's bulky attacker set can tank a Tail Slap and retaliate with a Drain Punch. However, Timburr must remain in good condition for most of the battle, or Minccino easily beats Timburr.

Minccino does not like facing SturdyJuice Onix too much. Triple Axel's first two hits brings it into Berry Juice range, with the third hit being the only one to actually do damage. Weak Armor Onix, however, gets completely destroyed by Triple Axel.

Steel Types can also deal with Minccino well. Pawniard doesn't enjoy eating a Knock Off, though.

In Conclusion: I believe Minccino is an underrated threat that should be noted whenever seen in team preview. For this, I believe Minccino should be nomiated to at least a C rank, Possibly even a B- rank in Viability Rankings.

 

[jns0808]

I have to disagree with the Mincinno Nomination
Mincinno sounds great in theory.
However, a single ferroseed or pawniard is enough to stop it dead in its tracks, Ferro being even worse thanks to iron barbs. One of these two are on virtualy every team.
Pawn will gladly switch in multiple times to set up rocks, and knock off/iron head whatever comes in. Not to mention the constant fake outs/sucker punches it will have to endure, in addition to LO recoil.
However, if it was to be nommed, I say it should not be higher than C- or C.

 

[DuGuo]

I believe Carvanha can get higher rankings.
Carvanha has a strong stabs,it uses Flip Turn to switch,Crunch provides strike and Psychic Fangs to beat against Fighting-types.It also usually uses life orb and adamant nature to get more power!I think it is definitely the one who is looked down upon.
Some Calcs:
vs Mienfoo: 196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Flip Turn vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 16-21 (76.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Mienfoo: 23-29 (109.5 - 138%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs Timburr: 196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Flip Turn vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 16-21 (66.6 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Timburr: 23-29 (95.8 - 120.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
So many times Timburr have to use Mach Punch.
vs Mareanie:
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Crunch vs. 196 HP / 20+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 9-13 (37.5 - 54.1%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Psychic Fangs vs. 196 HP / 20+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 16-21 (66.6 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs Ferroseed:
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Crunch vs. 84 HP / 108+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Checks：
Trace Porygon:It can trace Speed Boost and not be 2HKO by Crunch but it cannot face the consumption of flipturn.
Timburr and Grookey:Just can use its +1 move to revenge kill.
Ferroseed:Only one time to check it.

When I have time, I will post some replays of carvanha.
This shows that Carvanha is so difficult to resist.And when Carvanha in a game,both of us must guess what will opp do,protect or not?Flip Turn
or not?I believe Carvanha can get higher rankings.

 

[jns0808]

While I agree with wanting to raise Carvanha, I don't see it trapinch-level good yet. Unless we also raise trapinch?

Thank you for making a good suggestion though.
P.s. it's a higher ranking(no s)

 

[Shandeur]

I think Carvanha should be raised as well. The presence of super effective priority doesn't help it much, but once you get those out of the way, Carvanha is a monstrous late-game threat.

 

[Bella]

Nominating

from C to C-. Frankly this thing is terrible right now and lets be honest, who even uses this thing nowdays. Thing gets countered by Ferroseed, StudyJuice Onix, And needs to find a frankly really difficult time to set up the swords dance needed to setup to actually be a dangerous mon.

Will also be nominating

from C- to C. This little guy is so so underrated. He sets up spikes constantly, one of the best mienfoo and grookey checks in the whole meta rn, and is powerful enough to outspeed mons like abra and diglett after protect and revenge kill them.
vs standard Life orb abra:

36 Atk Venipede Pin Missile (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abra: 24-28 (126.3 - 147.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs Diglett

76 Atk Venipede Pin Missile (4 hits) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 16-24 (88.8 - 133.3%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO (spikes will confirm the kill.)

vs Mienfoo

0 Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venipede: 4-5 (21 - 26.3%) -- 22.5% chance to 4HKO

0 Atk Mienfoo Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venipede: 6-8 (31.5 - 42.1%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO

vs Grookey

236 Atk Life Orb Grookey Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venipede in Grassy Terrain: 6-8 (31.5 - 42.1%) -- 84.4% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

236 Atk Life Orb Grookey Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venipede in Grassy Terrain: 4-5 (21 - 26.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

The thing really only has a bad matchup vs Rapid spin leads (Staryu, Anorith, etc.) and Natu. However, in the playstyle venipede fits in best (hyper offense) its still a solid pick and better than all the other C- rank mons and even some C ranks imo. Overall, solid mon

 

[Boooo_Yah]

Nominating

from C to C-. Frankly this thing is terrible right now and lets be honest, who even uses this thing nowdays. Thing gets countered by Ferroseed, StudyJuice Onix, And needs to find a frankly really difficult time to set up the swords dance needed to setup to actually be a dangerous mon.

Will also be nominating

from C- to C. This little guy is so so underrated. He sets up spikes constantly, one of the best mienfoo and grookey checks in the whole meta rn, and is powerful enough to outspeed mons like abra and diglett after protect and revenge kill them.
vs standard Life orb abra:

36 Atk Venipede Pin Missile (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abra: 24-28 (126.3 - 147.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs Diglett

76 Atk Venipede Pin Missile (4 hits) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 16-24 (88.8 - 133.3%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO (spikes will confirm the kill.)

vs Mienfoo

0 Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venipede: 4-5 (21 - 26.3%) -- 22.5% chance to 4HKO

0 Atk Mienfoo Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venipede: 6-8 (31.5 - 42.1%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO

vs Grookey

236 Atk Life Orb Grookey Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venipede in Grassy Terrain: 6-8 (31.5 - 42.1%) -- 84.4% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

236 Atk Life Orb Grookey Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venipede in Grassy Terrain: 4-5 (21 - 26.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

The thing really only has a bad matchup vs Rapid spin leads (Staryu, Anorith, etc.) and Natu. However, in the playstyle venipede fits in best (hyper offense) its still a solid pick and better than all the other C- rank mons and even some C ranks imo. Overall, solid mon

I lowkey disagree with your Bunnelby take, SturdyJuice Onix can for sure lose to Bunnelby, considering it does not want a Huge Power Earthquake, and prior hazard damage makes Onix more of a check than a counter to Bunnelby. Bunnelby can run Scarf, Life Orb, Choice Band as well, its more flexible than people think. Plus, Ferroseed gets 3HKO by Earthquake and for the heck of it, you can even run Brick Break if you're concerned with Ferroseed, so not at all a counter


228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Earthquake vs. 84 HP / 108+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 8-10 (36.3 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Brick Break vs. 84 HP / 108+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 12-16 (54.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[jns0808]

I won

Who's telling him this is the wrong thread?
That aside, Bunnelby deserved to be knocked down a notch, it's barely usable as it is, it is simply inferior to Mincinno, which is not that great itself.

 

[Boooo_Yah]

Who's telling him this is the wrong thread?
That aside, Bunnelby deserved to be knocked down a notch, it's barely usable as it is, it is simply inferior to Mincinno, which is not that great itself.

Could you prove that it's barely unusable? It has good things going for it, primarily hitting Steel types or Normal resistant Pokemon that Mincinno cannot always hit super-effectively, being one of the strongest LC physical attacking Pokemon in the tier, being able to hit Fire-types like Ponyta and Larvesta for example, (esp with Choice Scarf) without being burned (EdgeQuake). I think Bunnelby has its uses and is viable in LC, although it certainly has competition from other Normal types and has frailty. Although, the Mincinno Life Orb set makes Mincinno frailer as well.

 

[Bella]

I lowkey disagree with your Bunnelby take, SturdyJuice Onix can for sure lose to Bunnelby, considering it does not want a Huge Power Earthquake, and prior hazard damage makes Onix more of a check than a counter to Bunnelby. Bunnelby can run Scarf, Life Orb, Choice Band as well, its more flexible than people think. Plus, Ferroseed gets 3HKO by Earthquake and for the heck of it, you can even run Brick Break if you're concerned with Ferroseed, so not at all a counter


228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Earthquake vs. 84 HP / 108+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 8-10 (36.3 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Brick Break vs. 84 HP / 108+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 12-16 (54.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

band is really really bad in LC. Bunnelbys best set, (scarf IIRC) Still loses to ferroseed, and it would make you drop a moveslot. hazard removal is pretty easy right now, just due to the nature of how easy it is to slap on natu and/or stayru to a team. Scarf bunnelby loses to pawn and timburr priorty, and all bunnelby sets cant beat ferroseed in 1 hit basically meaning it will cripple bunnelby with twave and make it useless. If it dosnt lock into EQ on the scarf and "band" sets, now koffing checks it hard. basically this thing is ass.

 

[Boooo_Yah]

band is really really bad in LC. Bunnelbys best set, (scarf IIRC) Still loses to ferroseed, and it would make you drop a moveslot. hazard removal is pretty easy right now, just due to the nature of how easy it is to slap on natu and/or stayru to a team. Scarf bunnelby loses to pawn and timburr priorty, and all bunnelby sets cant beat ferroseed in 1 hit basically meaning it will cripple bunnelby with twave and make it useless. If it dosnt lock into EQ on the scarf and "band" sets, now koffing checks it hard. basically this thing is ass.

I gave you examples of how powerful this mon is, yes it is frail and I did bring that up, however, Bunnelby does not need to even do anything to Ferroseed, since there are other Pokemon who can support Bunnelby. Plus, Ferroseed can't switch into Bunnelby reliably without being severely chipped by Earthquake. Likewise with Timburr and Pawniard. Priority does mess up Bunnelby, but the only concerning Pokemon it needs to look out for is Pawniard. Plus, this Pokemon does not need to drop lower than where it is at the moment, the Pokemon certainly has a niche in the LC tier and while this Pokemon is certainly hard to use in a team, it's still not unviable.

Also:

236 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Bunnelby: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Mach Punch vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Bunnelby: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I know you don't want to stay in on Timburr as Bunnelby, but if it ever decides to use Mach Punch, it won't KO Bunnelby and Timburr needs to be careful vs Bunnelby. If you want Adamant Pawniard, it does not change much.

236+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Bunnelby: 10-13 (47.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[jns0808]

I gave you examples of how powerful this mon is, yes it is frail and I did bring that up, however, Bunnelby does not need to even do anything to Ferroseed, since there are other Pokemon who can support Bunnelby. Plus, Ferroseed can't switch into Bunnelby reliably without being severely chipped by Earthquake. Likewise with Timburr and Pawniard. Priority does mess up Bunnelby, but the only concerning Pokemon it needs to look out for is Pawniard. Plus, this Pokemon does not need to drop lower than where it is at the moment, the Pokemon certainly has a niche in the LC tier and while this Pokemon is certainly hard to use in a team, it's still not unviable.

Also:

236 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Bunnelby: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Mach Punch vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Bunnelby: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I know you don't want to stay in on Timburr as Bunnelby, but if it ever decides to use Mach Punch, it won't KO Bunnelby and Timburr needs to be careful vs Bunnelby. If you want Adamant Pawniard, it does not change much.

236+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Bunnelby: 10-13 (47.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Could you prove that it's barely unusable? It has good things going for it, primarily hitting Steel types or Normal resistant Pokemon that Mincinno cannot always hit super-effectively, being one of the strongest LC physical attacking Pokemon in the tier, being able to hit Fire-types like Ponyta and Larvesta for example, (esp with Choice Scarf) without being burned (EdgeQuake). I think Bunnelby has its uses and is viable in LC, although it certainly has competition from other Normal types and has frailty. Although, the Mincinno Life Orb set makes Mincinno frailer as well.

Ok so the reason nobody is bothering to post even a semi-long post about this is because it is common knowledge how bad Bunnelby is.
In a tier where the best mon is fighting type, normal types will always have it rough. That aside, bunnelby is still not even the best of normal types.
Bunnelby simply does not have the damage output reliably.
The very fact its trading pros and cons with mincinno is telling- Mincinno isn't that great itself
Hitting Steel Types is something nearly every good mon in the tier is able to do - Even the Psychics and Koffing.


Let's talk stats. Bunnelby cannot reach 17 Speed. Bad start off the bat, when the most important speed tier is 17.
Its Defense and SpD are both really weak, even for an offensive mon. It has no recovery either. You say you can remedy that with eviolite? Sorry to burst your bubble, but so can every other mon in the tier. If everyone is 1.5x times bulkier, that's the norm then. Not to mention that its weak to fighting, and slower than mienfoo- see the issue?
If you run Scarf, you take way more damage. If you run Eviolite, you get outsped.

Are you seeing the problem here? If Bunnelby could run Eviolite, Scarf, and LO all at once, it would be great-but it can't.
This means no matter what you do, it will sorely be lacking in at least one quality.
There's a famous term, called the Rampardos Theorem- Just because a mon can hit hard,doesn't mean its good. Bunnelby simply does not have the non-attacking stats to keep up, and no amount of adamant brick breaks and earthquakes will fix that.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

I'm new to the community, but I'm going to nominate:

from C to B-/C+

This little crab does massive damage with Adaptability-boosted Aqua Jet, and Swords Dance sets can tear through teams like a hot knife through butter. Here are some calcs (under the spoiler):

The Little Crab That Could

vs. Pawniard (Bulky Attacker) sequence
156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Corphish: 7-9 (35 - 45%)
196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%)
156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Corphish: 7-9 (35 - 45%)
196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%)
--------------------------------------------
Pawniard is supposedly a decent counter to Corphish...
--------------------------------------------
vs. Mienfoo (Bulky Pivot) sequence:
0 Atk Mienfoo Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Corphish: 3-4 (15 - 20%)
Corphish flinches.
0 Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Corphish: 10-13 (50 - 65%)
196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%)
196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%)
--------------------------------------------
Now, surely Mienfoo would defend against it. No? Oh, what have we done here?
---------------------------------------------

As you see, it can hold its own against 2 of the top 3 'mons (which actually have type advantages on it!) and Abra, which...yeah, dies to a Knock Off. However, it is frail, and that is what holds it back from being a top-tier LC threat.

 

[Boooo_Yah]

Ok so the reason nobody is bothering to post even a semi-long post about this is because it is common knowledge how bad Bunnelby is.
In a tier where the best mon is fighting type, normal types will always have it rough. That aside, bunnelby is still not even the best of normal types.
Bunnelby simply does not have the damage output reliably.
The very fact its trading pros and cons with mincinno is telling- Mincinno isn't that great itself
Hitting Steel Types is something nearly every good mon in the tier is able to do - Even the Psychics and Koffing.


Let's talk stats. Bunnelby cannot reach 17 Speed. Bad start off the bat, when the most important speed tier is 17.
Its Defense and SpD are both really weak, even for an offensive mon. It has no recovery either. You say you can remedy that with eviolite? Sorry to burst your bubble, but so can every other mon in the tier. If everyone is 1.5x times bulkier, that's the norm then. Not to mention that its weak to fighting, and slower than mienfoo- see the issue?
If you run Scarf, you take way more damage. If you run Eviolite, you get outsped.

Are you seeing the problem here? If Bunnelby could run Eviolite, Scarf, and LO all at once, it would be great-but it can't.
This means no matter what you do, it will sorely be lacking in at least one quality.
There's a famous term, called the Rampardos Theorem- Just because a mon can hit hard,doesn't mean its good. Bunnelby simply does not have the non-attacking stats to keep up, and no amount of adamant brick breaks and earthquakes will fix that.

I don't know why you're trying to act wise to me when we are debating about Pokemon rankings. Anyway, Bunnelby is viable in this tier, the Tiering Council decided to not take it down long ago because the ranking fitted it. You want it to go down in C-, where Wynaut and even Meowth is. I've provided calculations already for the pokemon and I said, "you can run either set" and I mostly mentioned Choice Scarf because it is the best set Bunnelby has right now. And no, you didn't burst my bubble, hell I never even mentioned Eviolite in any of my posts about Bunnelby lmao. Bunnelby's ability to hit Steel types in LC supereffectively is what distinguishes itself from Mincinno, hence why I mentioned in all together, in addition to being able to cripple Ponyta and Larvesta without potentially being burned by Flame Body. In my opinion, Bunnelby should stay in C tier, and Mincinno should not be unranked no longer, I myself think this Pokemon has the potential to have a niche in LC. The calculations prove that Mincinno can be a threat on a team and is worthy of C tier. Credit to Shandeur for their post.

 

[Supergum]

I'm new to the community, but I'm going to nominate:

from C to B-/C+

This little crab does massive damage with Adaptability-boosted Aqua Jet, and Swords Dance sets can tear through teams like a hot knife through butter. Here are some calcs (under the spoiler):

The Little Crab That Could

vs. Pawniard (Bulky Attacker) sequence
156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Corphish: 7-9 (35 - 45%)
196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%)
156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Corphish: 7-9 (35 - 45%)
196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%)
--------------------------------------------
Pawniard is supposedly a decent counter to Corphish...
--------------------------------------------
vs. Mienfoo (Bulky Pivot) sequence:
0 Atk Mienfoo Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Corphish: 3-4 (15 - 20%)
Corphish flinches.
0 Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Corphish: 10-13 (50 - 65%)
196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%)
196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%)
--------------------------------------------
Now, surely Mienfoo would defend against it. No? Oh, what have we done here?
---------------------------------------------

As you see, it can hold its own against 2 of the top 3 'mons (which actually have type advantages on it!) and Abra, which...yeah, dies to a Knock Off. However, it is frail, and that is what holds it back from being a top-tier LC threat.

Hi, I'm pretty new myself but I figured I'd discuss these calcs for a second.

For starters, I'm not sure why you're not taking Knock Off from either Mienfoo or Pawniard into account. It's true that Corphish will always live through Fake Out into HJK from Bulky Pivot Mienfoo, but in order to KO that same Mienfoo from full (due to how damage is calculated at Level 5) Corphish has to roll an absolute max on either Crabhammer or Aqua Jet (about a 17.375% chance for at least one of these happening, not taking into account Crabhammer's imperfect accuracy). Mienfoo, on the other hand, can Fake Out into Knock Off to permanently cripple Corphish before pivoting out or using HJK to finish Corphish off, depending on the game state. Statistically speaking, the odds of Corphish winning the 1v1 against Eviolite Mienfoo are slim, and even if it does force Mienfoo out, Mienfoo will regenerate health after switching out, while Corphish will have been chipped and gotten its Eviolite removed.

As for Pawniard, it's a very similar issue. The possibility of Crabhammer into Aqua Jet getting a KO on Eviolite Pawniard (barring crits of course) also relies on getting an absolute max roll on either move, so it's also about 17%. In this case, however, the odds of Knock Off into Sucker Punch getting a KO on Corphish are significantly higher.

Eviolite Pawniard Vs. Eviolite Corphish

156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Corphish: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO

196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Corphish: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO

Barring critical hits, since both attacks deal the same amount of damage after applying modifiers for the Knock Off boost on the first hit and the lack of Eviolite on Corphish on the second hit, it can be safe to assume this combo KOs Corphish from full 68.4% of the time.

That being said, the standard set for Pawniard right now is Berry Juice. This variant of Pawniard has a worse matchup against Corphish, as it is OHKO'd by Crabhammer 56.3% of the time, assuming the attack does not miss.

196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Pawniard: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

All in all, I think Corphish is fine where it is. It's a very powerful wallbreaker on paper and can severely dent or finish off high-ranking mons if used properly, but it's painfully slow even with maximum Speed investment and its vulnerable to being checked by several other very common mons (Mareanie, Foongus, Grookey, SturdyJuice Magnemite, Ferroseed, and Staryu, to name a few) and revenge-killed by countless others (Koffing, Abra, Porygon... pretty much anything that doesn't get OHKO'd from full by Aqua Jet) so I wouldn't put it any higher than C- because of this.

 

[yellowfin]

gonna nom carvanha for a and snover/alolan sandshrew for b-.
(b+ -> a)
this mon is just insane rn: even w/ evio grookey rising in usage, current meta trends besides that have been super kind to it (timburr mia, pawn usage up, scarf 17 mons being nonexistent everywhere except for ladder, larvesta). carvanha + koffing builds absolutely carve up current sslc builds, and considering that carvanha blows thru teams once mienfoo loses its eviolite and the steel is chipped it's p criminal that it is sitting w/ mons like mag, onix, and pony-g. (also carv has been in literally 5/8 games of the last two played rounds of ssnl lol.) obviously it's not invincible, as it can lack in strength occasionally & is beaten by prio, but being a fast wallbreaker that doesn't get super owned by either trapper is pretty sick. e: forgot about scarf pawn which is annoying for it ig and there are kinda ways that both trappers have around carv (scarf dig, qa pinch) but those are p niche

(c -> b-)
these guys r a really good fish :) probably better than shellos lol also c tier is lowkey bloated and i think moving the best members of the subrank up would help fix that a bit. don't think they go any higher than that tho considering sun is way better than hail and hail still struggles w/ a few key things (staryu mainly), but no longer getting annoyed by stuff like spore and ofc timburr is cool and good

short post, hope y'all agree with me. also i know i nommed stuff from c to b- but can we stop talking about unmons please and ty

 

[ACNT]

I don't know why you're trying to act wise to me when we are debating about Pokemon rankings. Anyway, Bunnelby is viable in this tier, the Tiering Council decided to not take it down long ago because the ranking fitted it. You want it to go down in C-, where Wynaut and even Meowth is. I've provided calculations already for the pokemon and I said, "you can run either set" and I mostly mentioned Choice Scarf because it is the best set Bunnelby has right now. And no, you didn't burst my bubble, hell I never even mentioned Eviolite in any of my posts about Bunnelby lmao. Bunnelby's ability to hit Steel types in LC supereffectively is what distinguishes itself from Mincinno, hence why I mentioned in all together, in addition to being able to cripple Ponyta and Larvesta without potentially being burned by Flame Body. In my opinion, Bunnelby should stay in C tier, and Mincinno should not be unranked no longer, I myself think this Pokemon has the potential to have a niche in LC. The calculations prove that Mincinno can be a threat on a team and is worthy of C tier. Credit to Shandeur for their post.

Quite honestly, I don't think Bunnelby is a better pokémon than Meowth, and I'm pretty sure Wynaut has more niches than Bunnelby in a lot of teams. To tell you the truth, we've made a Bunnelby suspect in LC RU where the best steel type is Cufant: Bunnelby didn't even get banned. LC RU.

In fact Bunnelby is a typical case of a powerful pokémon on paper but almost unusable in practice. I refer you to the notion of opportunity cost in teambuilding: firstly, it is almost impossible to justify a normal type that is not Porygon in LC at the moment. His speed tier is bad: not intrinsically (same speed as Pawniard) but because unlike Pawniard, his typing and bulk almost never allow him to come on the field except via slow pivot and double switch, and so he has to compensate with higher speed. Secondly, the metagame is focused, with a few exceptions, on very bulky pokémon overall, including offensive pokémon. Third, almost all offensive pokémon with rare exceptions (which are usually justified by the speed control they provide) have a use outside of hitting hard. Rapid Spin, a priority, a healing move for longevity, Magic Bounce, Neutralizing Gas...LC is focused on very versatile pokémons all over the place rather than specialized ones, unlike the other tiers where it's a bit different. Bunnelby only has Spikes, which aren't super good at the moment either.

If you think Bunnelby is viable (I don't), I'd consider you trying tournaments and getting significant results with that pokémon to have a chance of changing the council's mind. There is absolutely no consensus on your position, so I think it's up to you to provide practical proof of what you're saying, beyond the theory.

Personally, I wouldn't even rank it at all. And a non-rank pokémon doesn't mean unplayable at all, it means that it's not worth it in 99% of teams and that another pokémon would do the job better overall. There are occasional non-rank pokémon that are played for gimmick in good tournaments like the LPL and do well. There are pokémon that are quite playable in their own right but are just not as good as others.

Also, i strongly support yellowfin's post

 

[jns0808]

Yellowfin and ACNT spittin facts out here
While I don't use hail myself I've had a bit more of a tough time with it when facing it, so its surely gotten better.
At this point saying anything about carv is a waste of time, it has improved drastically, totally deserves the A rank.
Also seconding the notion about not talking about unmons so much

 

[Fiend]

• Raised Carvanha from B+ to A. This is common consensus. This fish is actually a consistent threat and the raise reflects the threat level well. Dominant results in the latest seasonal are impossible to ignore. If you're not onboard with this change yet, read yellowfin's post and watch the 4 games of seasonal finals.
• Lowered Mudbray from A- to B+. The donkey is certainly a good Pokemon, and it can excel often. But many find using Mudbray awkward, and its usefulness can be short-lived. Teams are generally becoming more prepared for it as a Scarfer (see eviolite grookey, natu usage), and as a SR setter it can be burned out before accomplishing too much.
• Raised Dwebble from B- to B+. A Spiker which harasses Natu is pretty nice, and a few trends prop this style of HO up, notably Carvanha but others are not to be discounted. Removal is a bit premium currently too, letting Dwebble fans pile on offensive threats.
• Lowered Ponyta-Galar from B+ to B. Ponyta-G continues to be hard to justify, and is being lowered to fit in better with similarly niche Pokemon. I still like the mixed sets, but its hard to be enthusiastic about such a mild threat given the alternatives. This is more of the same continued slump from prior updates.
• Raised Sandshrew-Alola and Snover from C+ to B-. I love to ladder with hail. It is so fun, despite the infestation of Larvesta, Sun, and other ladder obsessions weighing me down. The community seems to believe in hail again, and raising the dynamic duo is the proper thing to do.
• Lowered Slowpoke from B to B-. Slowpoke has similar issues to Mudbray, but is generally just a worse Pokemon. The Candaians had a pretty good run with this Pokemon in LCWC, but no one else has really channeled that in an individual yet. With Carvanha usage ticking up, it didn't seem to belong with the other B mons.

We've opted to address some issues with the C rank by creating a D rank in place of C-. The intent is to rank more Pokemon to indicate that they have been considered and are less good than a few ladder games may indicate. I'm not going to list all of the new additions here or try to explain them, so look at the OP instead please. These Pokemon are not the focus of this resource, but are listed as an aid for newer players. Please let's avoid spending too much time trying to hash out the differences between D and C. Yes, Acehunter1 your precious Golett is ranked again PLEASE stop dming me now.

Please do NOT nominate new Pokemon for the D rank.

 

[Camden]

Just wanted to make a small post to say this:

C -> B-

Every team packs at least one Poison-type and Pancham beats them all by only needing Zen Headbutt, on top of everything else a bulky fighter would normally beat. Your fourth move can also vary depending on your team and ability. Iron Fist is recommended to boost Drain Punch's power and on those sets you're probably running Swords Dance, but Mold Breaker Parting Shot is a cool niche to pivot on Natu and gain a setup opportunity somewhere else. You're likely only running this on specialised teams but it does a great job at letting Mienfoo run rampant as long as you have Psychics under control.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

I probably have no reason to say this, but I nominate...

D --> C

Amaura is not on the level of Snover by any means. However, its type matchup against Larvesta is decent, with Rock hitting it 4x effectively, while Snover and Alolan Sandslash don't do anything. Additionally, possibly a surprise Refrigerate set is possible.

 

[Éric]

my post lpl vr (s/os Camden for the tierlist maker)

takes on more meta mons

this thing is insane. its really hard to take on the builder, but i think its outplayable enough with every single team for it to be balanced. still, its insane breaking potential and defensive profile makes it A in my eyes
i think this is like the second best wincon in the meta after carv. thing just sweeps, especially now that pinch is way less common. it finds a lot of opportunities to dd up since posions are everywhere too.
i think theyre on par rn. since all grooks and abras run non trappable sets, pinchs role is just to trap one of pony, tyrunt or the steels. still does that well (tho dig does so too, i think you can justify the bulk sometimes). on the other hand, while grook and waters sucks for bray, natus going spdf makes for a huge opportunity for it to break, be it scarf (faster than pory) or rock tomb rocks/sub.
honestly this thing has no switch ins whatsoever but suffers a lot from a 4mss for it to be consitstent.

lesser seen mons

i think its a really cool mon. helps mienfoo break a lot, and is hugely bulky. w a set only consisting of zen, drain and knock its able to really punch holes in teams. it has bad parts like adding abra/natu weaknesses, but has other benefits like tanking one psychic fangs. look at this replay to see it in action
im in the golett hype train but honestly thing is so good. it has some glaring flaws: grook weak, carv weak, not faster than porygon (unlike mudbray), makes you play weird with knock off. but oh man the thing just breaks. its so easy for it to enter the field by virtue of its typing, and when it does either you predict wrong and something dies or something just dies without needing to predict. look at this lpl replay to see what its actually capable of doing, even if you have shitty larvesta instead of koffing in your team.
since carv is broken and pory is as good as ever, i believe timburr can be used. its not any mienfoo replacement, just an aid.

trash mons

as the time passes, i see less and less reasons to use foongus. ferro exists, natu exists, abra and ponyta hurt it, loses to mienfoo + koffing and gets ohkoed by psychic fangs. just ehhhhhh
dude i swear to god this thing sucks why do people use it it just makes your team rocks weak like please for the love of god use actual fighting resists.

if you dont see a mon in here, i think its unviable.

i think the meta is balanced overall. i can see why people dont like carv, but id give it some time for the meta to adapt. i know im in the minority but i just really enjoy ss lc overall, im so happy i get to play it

 

[PyProd]

Spoiler

my post lpl vr (s/os Camden for the tierlist maker)
View attachment 425585

takes on more meta mons

this thing is insane. its really hard to take on the builder, but i think its outplayable enough with every single team for it to be balanced. still, its insane breaking potential and defensive profile makes it A in my eyes
i think this is like the second best wincon in the meta after carv. thing just sweeps, especially now that pinch is way less common. it finds a lot of opportunities to dd up since posions are everywhere too.
i think theyre on par rn. since all grooks and abras run non trappable sets, pinchs role is just to trap one of pony, tyrunt or the steels. still does that well (tho dig does so too, i think you can justify the bulk sometimes). on the other hand, while grook and waters sucks for bray, natus going spdf makes for a huge opportunity for it to break, be it scarf (faster than pory) or rock tomb rocks/sub.
honestly this thing has no switch ins whatsoever but suffers a lot from a 4mss for it to be consitstent.

lesser seen mons

i think its a really cool mon. helps mienfoo break a lot, and is hugely bulky. w a set only consisting of zen, drain and knock its able to really punch holes in teams. it has bad parts like adding abra/natu weaknesses, but has other benefits like tanking one psychic fangs. look at this replay to see it in action
im in the golett hype train but honestly thing is so good. it has some glaring flaws: grook weak, carv weak, not faster than porygon (unlike mudbray), makes you play weird with knock off. but oh man the thing just breaks. its so easy for it to enter the field by virtue of its typing, and when it does either you predict wrong and something dies or something just dies without needing to predict. look at this lpl replay to see what its actually capable of doing, even if you have shitty larvesta instead of koffing in your team.
since carv is broken and pory is as good as ever, i believe timburr can be used. its not any mienfoo replacement, just an aid.

trash mons

as the time passes, i see less and less reasons to use foongus. ferro exists, natu exists, abra and ponyta hurt it, loses to mienfoo + koffing and gets ohkoed by psychic fangs. just ehhhhhh
dude i swear to god this thing sucks why do people use it it just makes your team rocks weak like please for the love of god use actual fighting resists.

if you dont see a mon in here, i think its unviable.

i think the meta is balanced overall. i can see why people dont like carv, but id give it some time for the meta to adapt. i know im in the minority but i just really enjoy ss lc overall, im so happy i get to play it

Hey, this post has some interesting Pokémon I want to try out, especially Pancham. What is the investment you're running on it? What set are you running with it, is it a Parting Shot pivot? What are you running on Archen to use its great coverage to its advantage? I agree with the points on Carvanha, Timburr, as well as Foongus being trash!

 

[Éric]

What is the investment you're running on Pancham? What set are you running with it, is it a Parting Shot pivot?

i run this one. it has max attack bc its supposed to break and needs it for zen rolls, and 13 speed to outspeed standard koffing. idr what did the defense do, i remember calcing the 1v1 vs foo tho.

What are you running on Archen to use its great coverage to its advantage?

these are the options archen has. to sum it up: stabs + protect + coverage for steels. protect i think is necessary to win the mienfoo 1v1 since fake out + hjk kills, stabs are what makes it good and the option of eq vs hw is like choosing to hit mareanie and pawn or ferro. you could do 4 attacks ig, as well as knock, uturn or aqua tail tho, but i think thats the most consistent

 

[Fille]

I disagree on the take that venipede is trash. Of course it has issues competing with dweeble, but it’s niche is it’s speed. Also do you know how bulky the bug is? It takes max of 75% from a LO abra psychic. It’s solid

236 SpA Life Orb Abra Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Venipede: 23-31 (104.5 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (23, 23, 23, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 31)


Errrrh