Metagame Sword & Shield ZU Speculation Thread

[Xayah]

OP largely stolen from phantom
Approved by 5gen

All Ability Descriptions: https://pastebin.com/iifYQntd
All Deleted Moves: https://pastebin.com/3FTfUgzd
All moves: https://pastebin.com/fXsN3Bvw
All gmax moves: https://pastebin.com/yZsZgNUc
Movesets P1: https://pastebin.com/Cyg8Rp53
Movesets P2: https://pastebin.com/c6EFsDjr

New Mechanics:

• Rapid Spin buffed to 50 BP, increases Speed by one Stage
• Pinch Berries now only heal 33% (Down from 50%)
• Multi-Attack buffed to 120 BP
• Abilities such as Inner Focus, Own Tempo, and Scrappy are now all immune to Intimidate on top of their old effects
• Psychic, Electric, and Grassy Terrain all have their damage buffs decreased from x1.5 to x1.3.
• New items like Heavy Duty Boots prevent entry hazards from having any effect on the holder, and Throat Spray is consumed and raises SpA by one stage when the holder users a sound-based move.

Below I combed through the information found in the links for more relevant discussion pertaining to ZU:

New additions to old ZU mons: https://pastebin.com/1eMm1N63

It is important to note that it is very likely that our opinions on what Gen 8 ZU will change dramatically as the generation goes on and we get closer to the launch date. Even so, I ask that you make your posts with thoughtfulness. Any posts that are not backed up with reasonable arguments are open to being deleted, as well as any posts about potential bans or any offtopic posts.

Thanks to Ho3nConfirm3d for helping to compile the potential ZU list!

It’s hard to know what we’ll actually get or what the power level of the tier will be, so we decided to be liberal. It’s likely that there’s Pokemon on here that we don’t even come close to getting, and it’s likely that there will be Pokemon that are complete garbage yet were still listed.

Finally, we only listed new Pokemon, as those are the most interesting for discussion. Anyway, here they are:

New ZU mons

Thwackey
Base Stats: 70.85.70.55.60.80 (BST: 420)
Abilities: Overgrow (1) | Overgrow (2) | Grassy Surge (H)
Type: Grass
Relevant moves:
-Wood Hammer
-Knock Off
-U-Turn
-Swords Dance
-Drain Punch
-Low Kick
-Taunt

Raboot
Base Stats: 65.86.60.55.60.94 (BST: 420)
Abilities: Blaze (1) | Blaze (2) | Libero (H)
Libero: Changes the Pokémon’s type to the type of the move it’s about to use. (Protean Clone)
Type: Fire
Relevant moves:
-Flare Blitz
-Blaze Kick
-High Jump Kick
-Sucker Punch
-Gunk Shot
-Flame Charge
-Low Sweep
-Acrobatics
-Bulk Up
-Taunt

Drizzile
Base Stats: 65.60.55.95.55.90 (BST: 420)
Abilities: Torrent (1) | Torrent (2) | Sniper (H)
Type: Water
Relevant moves:
-Surf
-Reflect
-Light Screen
-U-Turn
-Sucker Punch
-Aqua Jet
-Mud Shot

Greedent
Base Stats: 120.95.95.55.75.20 (BST: 460)
Abilities: Cheek Pouch (1) | Cheek Pouch (2) | Gluttony (H)
Type: Normal
Relevant moves:
-Stuff Cheeks
-Body Press
-Facade
-Swords Dance
-Earthquake
-Superpower
-Crunch
-Rest
-Counter
-Super Fang
-Belly Drum
-Fire Fang
-Psychic Fangs
-Wild Charge

Corvisquire
Base Stats: 68.67.55.43.55.77 (BST: 365)
Abilities: Keen Eye (1) | Unnerve (2) | Big Pecks (H)
Type: Flying
Relevant moves:
-Brave Bird
-Roost
-Defog
-U-Turn
-Taunt
-Agility

Dottler
Base Stats: 50.35.80.50.90.30 (BST: 335)
Abilities: Swarm (1) | Compound Eyes (2) | Telepathy (H)
Type: Bug/Psychic
Relevant moves:
-Recover
-Sticky Web
-Body Press
-Iron Defense
-Infestation
-Bug Buzz
-Psychic
-Calm Mind

Thievul
Base Stats: 70.58.58.87.92.90 (BST: 455)
Abilities: Run Away (1) | Unburden (2) | Stakeout (H)
Type: Dark
Relevant moves:
-Nasty Plot
-Dark Pulse
-Psychic
-U-Turn
-Parting Shot
-Grass Knot
-Sucker Punch
-Foul Play

Carkol
Base Stats: 80.60.90.60.70.50 (BST: 410)
Abilities: Steam Engine (1) | Flame Body (2) | Flash Fire (H)
Steam Engine: Raises Speed by 6 stages if hit by a Fire- or Water-type move (no immunity)
Type: Rock/Fire
Relevant Moves:
-Stealth Rock
-Flare Blitz
-Stone Edge
-High Horsepower
-Fire Blast
-Heat Crash
-Will-O-Wisp
-Overheat
-Body Press
-Iron Defense
-Scald
-Heavy Slam
-Iron Head

Silicobra
Base Stats: 52.57.75.35.50.46 (BST: 315)
Abilities: Sand Spit (1) | Shed Skin (2) | Sand Veil (H)
Sand Spit: Summons Sand if hit by an attack.
Type: Ground
Relevant Moves:
-Coil
-Earthquake
-Rest
-Glare
-Poison Tail
-Sleep Talk

Grapploct
Base Stats: 80.118.90.70.80.42 (BST: 480)
Abilities: Limber (1) | Limber (2) | Technician (H)
Type: Fighting
Relevant moves:
-Close Combat
-Drain Punch
-Ice Punch
-Sucker Punch
-Liquidation
-Octolock
-Circle Throw
-Superpower
-Taunt
-Brutal Swing

Sinistea
Base Stats: 40.45.45.74.54.50 (BST: 308)
Abilities: Weak Armor (1) | Weak Armor (2) | Cursed Body (H)
Type: Ghost
Relevant Moves:
-Shell Smash
-Shadow Ball
-Stored Power
-Giga Drain
-Psyshock
-Dark Pulse
-Will-O-Wisp

Hattrem
Base Stats: 57.40.65.86.73.49 (BST: 370)
Abilities: Healer (1) | Anticipation (2) | Magic Bounce (H)
Type: Psychic
Relevant moves:
-Psychic
-Mystical Fire
-Dazzling Gleam
-Calm Mind
-Dark Pulse
-Nuzzle
-Healing Wish
-Aromatherapy
-Giga Drain

Galarian Yamask
Base Stats: 38.55.85.30.65.30 (BST: 303)
Abilities: Wandering Spirit (1) | Wandering Spirit (1) | Wandering Spirit (H)
Wandering Spirit: Exchanges abilities when hitting a Pokemon with a contact move.
Type: Ground / Ghost
Relevant moves:
-Destiny Bond
-Earthquake
-Haze
-Memento
-Night Shade
-Toxic Spikes
-Trick Room
-Will-O-Wisp

Stonjourner
Base Stats: 100.125.135.20.20.70 (BST: 470)
Abilities: Power Spot (1) | Power Spot (2) | Power Spot (H)
Power Spot: Just being next to the Pokémon powers up moves. (useless in singles)
Type: Rock
Relevant moves:
-Body Slam
-Body Press
-Rock Polish
-Stealth Rock
-Heavy Slam
-Stone Edge
-Curse
-Iron Defense
-Earthquake
-Superpower
-Self Destruct
-Heavy Slam
-Heat Crash

Cufant
Base Stats: 72.80.49.40.49.40 (BST:330)
Abilities: Sheer Force (1) | Sheer Force (2) | Heavy Metal (H)
Type: Steel
Relevant moves:
-Body Slam
-Body Press
-Iron Head
-Play Rough
-Power Whip
-Rock Slide
-Stealth Rock
-Superpower
-Whirlwind
-Zen Headbutt
-Curse
-High Horsepower

Arctovish
Base Stats: 90.90.100.80.90.55 (BST: 505)
Abilities: Water Absorb (1) | Ice Body (2) | Slush Rush (H)
Type: Water / Ice
Relevant moves:
-Aurora Veil
-Freeze Dry
-Fishious Rend
-Icicle Crash
-Crunch
-Rock Slide
-Icy Wind
-Hydro Pump
-Ice Beam
-Liquidation
-Psychic Fangs

Drakloak
Base Stats: 68.80.50.60.50.102 (BST: 410)
Abilities: Clear Body (1) | Infiltrator (2) | Cursed Body (H)
Type: Dragon / Ghost
Relevant moves:
-Dragon Pulse
-Agility
-U-turn
-Dragon Dance
-Thunder Wave
-Will-O-Wisp
-Flamethrower
-Hydro Pump
-Surf
-Thunderbolt
-Fire Blast
-Outrage
-Shadow Ball
-Scald
-Psychic Fangs

Galarian Farfetch’d
Base Stats: 52.95.55.58.62.55 (BST: 377)
Abilities: Steadfast (1) | Scrappy (H)
Type: Fighting
Relevant moves:
-Knock Off
-Defog
-Swords Dance
-Leaf Blade
-Brave Bird
-Superpower
-Close Combat
-Poison Jab
-Quick Attack
-Double-Edge

Galarian Ponyta
Base Stats: 50.85.55.65.65.90 (BST: 410)
Abilities: Run Away (1) | Pastel Veil (2) | Anticipation (H)
Pastel Veil: Protects the Pokemon and its ally from being poisoned
Type: Psychic
Relevant moves:
-Agility
-Body Slam
-Double Edge
-High Horsepower
-Healing Wish
-Low Kick
-Megahorn
-Morning Sun
-Play Rough
-Quick Attack
-Wild Charge
-Zen Headbutt

Galarian Rapidash
Base Stats: 65.100.70.80.80.105 (BST: 500)
Abilities: Run Away (1) | Pastel Veil (2) | Anticipation (H)
Pastel Veil: Protects the Pokemon and its ally from being poisoned
Type: Psychic / Fairy
Relevant moves:
-Agility
-Body Slam
-Calm Mind
-Dazzling Gleam
-Double Edge
-High Horsepower
-Healing Wish
-Low Kick
-Megahorn
-Morning Sun
-Play Rough
-Psychic
-Psycho Cut
-Quick Attack
-Swords Dance
-Wild Charge
-Zen Headbutt
-Mystical Fire
-Throat Chop

Galarian Mr. Mime
Base Stats: 50.65.65.90.90.100 (BST: 460)
Abilities: Vital Spirit (1) | Screen Cleaner (2) | Ice Body (H)
Screen Cleaner: Upon switching in, removes Reflect, Light Screen, and Aurora Veil from both sides.
Type: Ice / Psychic
Relevant moves:
-Encore
-Light Screen
-Reflect
-Dazzling Gleam
-Rapid Spin
-Ice Shard
-Freeze-Dry
-Psychic
-Thunder Wave
-Ice Beam
-Thunderbolt
-Psyshock
-Shadow Ball
-Future Sight
-Taunt
-Trick
-Calm Mind
-Focus Blast
-Energy Ball
-Nasty Plot
-Grass Knot

 

[PkmSilver]

Let's go!

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

To be honest I think ZU this gen will mostly consist of bottom the barrel stuff like Delibird and NFEs. For example I think Stonjourner is PU material at least, and Galarian Rapidash's type combo is too good to pass up. Also I think a few ZU mons like Avalugg and Rotom-S will leave this gen thanks to Boots/Body Press and Nasty Plot respectively. What CAN switch into NP Rotom-S really?

On to discussing the mons I think we'll be getting though:

Drizzile could be cool as an offensive screen setter and an alternative to Meowstic-M for some teams. It actually hits pretty hard despite Surf being its strongest STAB move and having basically no coverage.

Greedent looks neat as a TR sweeper of sorts. Its coverage is pretty good and most things here probably won't have very crazy bulk so it hits hard as well. Outside of TR though that speed will pretty much kill its viability.

Hattrem means you can pull off Sheddy stall shenanigans without resorting to using Natu. Hattrem is bulkier and lacks weaknesses to things like Rocks. Natu IIRC does have access to the new Teleport though which could be neat.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Of the new mons listed, here is my personal order of least to most likely to be ZU:

No Chance

Arctovish - There's just no way with how powerful Fishous Rend is. It even has a STAB Freeze Dry for some Water Absorb mons like Quag and Mantine, and no doubt will be centralizing in midtiers.
Stonjourner - Despite 0 special bulk, its huge phys def, Atk, and wallbreaking speed and coverage will make it midtier.
Grapploct - Competes with some fighting types but it's still super strong and has great coverage, will totally be picked up before ZU.
Galarian Rapidash - Swords Dance with its good stats and movepool will make it a decent pick for a ton of offensive teams in the midtiers.
Galarian Mime - Great speed and a phenomenal supportive movepool in Rapid Spin and Nasty Plot, also great offensive movepool. Totally has a chance at NU, if not dropping to its worst at PU.

Somewhat Likely

Mr. Rime - Kind of worse than its prevo, it could be that if Mime is PU, then Rime could drop to ZU. Still not that likely though as there are a lot of good traits with both mons that they could be NU-PU, not PU-ZU.
Greedent - Despite the low speed the offensive presence with BD and its movepool just breaks everything, and it's got great natural bulk and Cheek Pouch + Sitrus recovery to trade hits much better.
Thievul - Doesn't have the greatest initial speed or movepool, but has a lot of tricks up its sleeve like NP Snarl Throat Spray Unburden that may see some legit usage in PU.
Drakloak - It's speed and dualstab is decent enough to pull off DD, CB, or even specs sets that PU could enjoy having, but has problems like its consequential physical stabs of Phantom Force and Outrage being annoying / abusable.

Very Likely

Galarian Farfetch’d - Much better Evio fighting types like Gurdurr and Machoke exist to take its place, but its niche as an SD user with Knock Off could solidify itself somewhere low in PU usage.
Thwackey - Has a good BST for an Evio user, and great movepool. Without its HA, it likley competes with too many other grasses.
Sinistea - Shell Smash with Shadow Ball / Stored Power and Weak Armor + Evio makes it a dangerous sweeper but risky, and even with Evio pretty frail.
Raboot - A fast and offensive fire that has to compete with others until it gets its HA
Corvisquire - Defog user with a decent movepool, competes with better spinners and Defogers
Hattrem - Has problems with its low speed and competition with other low-tier Psychics.
Carkol - Likely better Spike and Rapid Spin users exist for PU.
Dottler - Better webs users exist, even Charjabug has a better shot at PU than this.
Cufant - Decent typing and offensive movepool but hard to justify on teams.
Drizzle - 0 coverage options, having a strong Surf alone won't cut it.
Galarian Ponyta - Competes with its Evio and better Psychic types.
Galarian Yamask - Barely has a niche / better grounds
Silicobra - Barely has a niche / better grounds

As for returning mons, I may have another list edited into here for the mons that are B+ in gen7 ZU that are still legal / not in a higher tier.

 

[Xayah]

So we got a pretty massive drop today that 200+ Pokemon are returning anyway and we're getting some new ones. Below I compiled a list of all Pokemon I could personally spot while rewatching the trailer that aren't in SwSh normally, and we should get them between June and whatever 'Fall' means exactly. The exception to this is Galarian Slowpoke, which is already available in game so we'll be able to use it immediately in April (but it's a pure Psychic type without Regenerator so don't bother).

Italics are new Pokemon

Dexit-exit

Registeel
Fletchling
Fletchinder
Talonflame
Galarian Slowpoke
Galarian Slowbro
Galarian Slowking
Larvesta
Volcarona
Horsea
Seadra
Kingdra
Dedenne
Rockruff
Lycanroc-Midday
Bulbasaur
Ivysaur
Venusaur
Squirtle
Wartortle
Blastoise
Galarian Moltres
Galarian Zapdos
Galarian Articuno
Kubfu
Urshifu
Calyrex
Mewtwo
Ho-Oh
Lugia
Raikou
Entei
Suicune
Groudon
Kyogre
Rayquaza
Uxie
Mesprit
Azelf
Dialga
Palkia
Tornadus
Landorus
Thundurus
Reshiram
Zekrom
Xerneas
Yveltal
Zygarde
Tapu Fini
Tapu Koko
Tapu Lele
Tapu Bulu
Solgaleo
Lunala
Amaura
Aurorus
Nidoran-M
Nidorino
Nidoking
Spheal
Sealeo
Walrein
Gible
Gabite
Garchomp

Couple things from me:
1. This list is likely incomplete as I probably missed stuff (I swear I remember seeing Sealeo but I can't find it again).
2. This includes everything, so not just ZU stuff (sorry, but I'm not expecting us to get Groudon). In fact, I feel like almost none of these Pokemon are going to be ZU relevant.
3. Whenever a Pokemon was shown, I assumed its pre-evolutions and evolutions could be accessed as well. However, I didn't note down Lycanroc-Midnight as we only saw Midday and we can't be 100% sure we can access its other form (although I'm pretty sure we can).
4. It's in the order in which I found them. I'm not gonna order them alphabetically or by pokedex or whatever, sue me.

My main takeaway is that once these are all released and the effects have trickled down through the tiers, the ZU power level is going to be far higher than expected in this gen. In other words, the list as originally compiled in the OP is going to be even more inaccurate come June than it already is in April.

EDIT: I found the Sealeo again as well as a couple others that have been added to the bottom of the list now. For ZU, Gabite and Walrein are the most notable. And possibly Aurorus depending on what power level we're looking at.

 

[Apagogie]

Alola

Since PU is now available with the NU shifts and since we are now in the last month before the official creation of ZU, the community will inaugurate a speculative ZU tier. Similarly to what other tiers did before us, we selected a number of mons that we think have a good chance to find their place in our metagame.

Without waiting much, here are the mons allowed in this speculative ZU Tier !

Speculative ZU mons (Updated with mid-month usage stats)

Cherrim
Delibird
Dusknoir
Glalie
Gothitelle
Gourgeist
Gourgeist-Large
Greedent
Octillery
Oranguru
Lunatone
Seaking
Shedinja
Silvally-Bug
Silvally-Electric
Silvally-Fighting
Silvally-Flying
Silvally-Grass
Silvally-Ice
Silvally-Psychic
Silvally-Rock
Sudowoodo
Wailord
Whiscash
Wobbuffet
+ New mons from usage stats
Beartic
Eiscue
Maractus
Pyukumuku
Shiinotic
Silvally-Dark
Solrock
Trevenant
Morgrem
Vibrava
Vullaby

NFE banlist

Carkol
Clefairy
Dusclops
Hattrem
Pawniard
Roselia
Trapinch
Type Null

This list is of course speculative and it is probable that the real ZU tier offers a different picture than what is proposed here.

Special thanks to Ho3nConfirm3d, UberSkitty and ToyTime King in helping me to do the list and also to many other people for their comments and details on the PU meta.

Have fun ~

 

[Rav3]

Initial thoughts:

Almost certainly I think Lapras, Mr Mime and Groundvally should be removed from spec whilst Maractus and Trevenant should drop down to ZU.

Discounting these mons:
Lunatone: looks like it will possibly be a staple on a lot of teams over most archetypes. Handy resistances that aren’t common in ZU, rocks, recovery and decent coverage make up for its mediocre stats and weaknesses to the common water and grass types.

Hippowdon: Also probably the only decent rock setter at this point. It was sneaky good in Gen7 and looks to get better now

Gourg: Gourg is Gourg, even if it’s not XL it’s still super hard to take down.

Meowstic: lacklustre coverage but that amazing speed tier + NP mean this mon is probably going to one of the biggest threats in the tier. Lack of dark types bar Zweilous is a massive boon also.

Silvally: fighting, electric, grass, psychic all look particularly dominant. Their raw stats, coverage and support options make Silvally the undeniable face of ZU.

Mareanie: Probably gets better again then last gen, might finally creep into the A+ ranks, has all the necessary tools to be a top tier defensive pivot. Tspikes look especially devastating this generation. Power drop means this thing is going to be a real pain to consider when team building.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Edit. Teams:
https://pokepast.es/f7e9d233ff6bb548

First Day of PU Laddering, Top 35 Replays Stats:
https://pastebin.com/4wGtMtkA

This isn't saying much, but its a cool look into the developing PU meta and consequently what ZU will have. I'll likely make most of my remaining posts with updates to PU ladder stats, on top of what ZU spec has come to.

The stats show a couple discrepancies from the spec banlist here. As for ZU legal mons, Mime and Lapras were around 10% usage, Meowstic around 5%, and NFEs low in usage but notable with Drakloak and Ivysaur. Pokemon currently banned in spec ZU and that did not make the usage cut off include Beartic, Glaceon, Maractus, Vullaby, Vibrava, Morgrem, and Thievul to name the ones I noticed.

For stability, and given the very small amount of replays, the banlist will likely not be updated until mid month.

Early Observations:

Silvally - There's no doubting that almost every spec ZU team should have a Silvally form. Their stats, coverage, and abusable 120 bp STAB attack makes them incredible. Some Silvallys in particular that have been successful include Fighting, Grass, and Ground. This is largely because their coverage in Psychic Fangs and Rock Slide helps beat resists to their Multi Attacks like Gloom and Togetic. Other vally's include Flying and Electric I have seen little use so far, but seem to have a lot of offensive capability as well.

Meowstic - Fastest mon in the meta, and notable for outspeeding Silvally. Competitive or Prankster are valuable abilities, and it got buffed with Nasty Plot. The downfall to its speed is its lackluster bulk and power, as it relies on boosts or potentially Choice Specs for breaking. Meowstic also lacks coverage for Dark types like Linoone-Galar and Zweilous, which makes it difficult for it to punish them or sweep.

Linoone-Galar - A very fast mon that has a solid STAB Knock Off and potentially Facade with the Toxic Orb Quick Feet set. As a lot of the remaining meta is NFEs, getting rid of Eviolites is awesome. It dances around slower targets like Silvally with Parting Shot, and not much else can stomach a Facade / Double Edge after coming into a Knock Off too many times.

Gourgeist-Large and Normal - Great bulk and supportive moves, or a good offensive presence with a decent speed and Power Whip.

Oranguru - Phenomenal special def, and a solid Ghost immunity. It has great bulk, and while it lacks decent recovery, it can stomach enough attacks and fire back with Future Sight, Toxic, Thunder Wave, ect.

There's a lot more, especially relevant NFEs like Machoke, Mareanie, Palpitoad, Charjabug, Gloom, Hakamo-o, Togetic, Pikachu, and Wartortle to name some. Dusknoir, Delibird, and Lunatone have some fun niches as well.

If you see me, always ask to play spec ZU! I'll be down :)

 

[Apagogie]

It's time to share my thoughts about the meta after more or less 5 days of existence.

Obviously the main topic is about the centralization of Silvally. I won't elaborate much because otherwise I won't have the time to talk about other mons but the public has to be aware that the metagame is really centralized around its use. There is nothing which is able to avoid to be 2HKO with a neutral hit of Vally and it's often able to 2HKO threats with Multi Attack even if it is resisted. Its bulk and its speed make it really difficult to weaken it and it's customisable according to your team. Vally is mandatory in every team you play.

I don't think however as I have read many times that the metagame is just unplayable or that every game is basically who uses SD on Vally first or who wins the speed tie between Vally versus Vally. Yeah, it happens but it's not the standard battle either. Faster mons such as Meowstic or Linoone Galar, toxic spikes, thunder wave, trick room, webs, priorities, offensive pressure and some counters such as Gourgeist are enough to be able to deal with most of them, at least at the team preview. I want to mention as well that each Vally is different and some Vallys are better than others. Until here, Vally Ground hasn't been very oppressive for me but at the contrary, Vally-Flying is very difficult to manage. The level of "brokeness" is not the same everywhere and we have still months to figure if the problem is Silvally in itself or if it's only some of them or even none of them. It would be surprinsing but not necessary impossible according to the vallys we get.

Let's talk about mons now. I will only talk about mons I personally played a lot. I haven't had the opportunity to test fully every mon in this tier so I will stay silent on some mons which are however good such as Meowstic.

Best mons


Silvally-Flying
The debate about SD Silvally is contentious but among every type it can have, the one which is the strongest at the moment is in my opinion and surprinsingly Silvally-Flying. I see three different reasons to explain why Vally-Flying is so strong in this speculative metagame.
- The first reason is that the coverage flying is good in this metagame. Gourgeist-Large is the general main answer to SD Vallys thanks to its ability to be immunized or to resist fighting, ground, grass and electric which is half of the vallys allowed here. Vally Flying is not stopped by gourgeist and its stab is resisted only by rock, electric and steel types which are rare at the moment or share a type which make them weak to crunch type such as Lunatone.
- The second reason is the ability of Vally Flying to have a good match up versus vallys with the "best" types. What I mean is Vally Flying is able to handle itself stabs from Vally-Fighting, Vally-Grass and Vally-Ground. These types are generally considered such as stronger thanks to their offensive and defensive utility. Since Vally is the most powerful mon of the tier, having a type advantage against stronger Vallys is a strength at the moment.
- The third reason is the ability of the flying type to be immunized to sticky webs and to toxic spikes. It means that its match up against very offensive archetypes and bulkier archetypes is as good as normally. Other Vallys don't have this ability and it's a good counterplay to them to force them to be slower than your team or to reduce their bulk thanks to status. Vally-Flying doesn't care about these strategies and it is therefore really difficult to deal with in if you rely on that to handle Arceus.

However, it's the beginning. We easily see that the first and the second reason is just due to meta trends. If people started to play Sudowoodo max defense, Klang max defense or more colbur Lunatone, we could imagine that it would have more difficult to break down teams. In the same kind of idea, people wanted to test the vallys with the best types so it's pretty normal that Vally-Flying is so good in the beginning of this gen. However, Vally-Flying has a poor match up against less popular Vallys in this tier such as Vally-Rock or Vally Electric and also Vally-Ice to a lesser extent. We haven't seen yet teams really be prepared to face a Vally-Flying so there is definitely room for improvement.

Gourgeist (Large and Normal)
I will be pretty short on Gourgeist. It is an amazing mon both defensively and offensively. Defensively, it's the only reliable answer to half of Vallys thanks to its very good defensive stat and its typing. As mentioned earlier, it deals really well with SD Vally-Fighting, Ground, Grass and Electric. It is also a good answer to mons such as Greedent or Pikachu and even to stall Trick Room turns against physical attackers. Its offensive set is also very good in webs or in regular scarfer, it's surprinsingly difficult to switch into an offensive Gourgeist. Its ability to spin block is also nice when you play toxic spikes or webs.

Mareanie
Mareanie is an interesting case because its match up against the metagame is pretty bad considering a good amount of pokemons are able to threat it with knock, psychic, are just able to stall it such as Greedent or just 2HKO it easily after SD like any Vally. However, toxic spikes are really difficult to handle for most of teams. I think I'm right if I say that at least 1/3 of battles I won was only due to toxic spikes. The lack of good defogers/spinners don't allow a lot of teams to play a hazard remover and if they do, it's generally Silvally which is weak to t-spikes itself (I have seen some Delibird Boots spin but it looks pretty bad).

It's the beginning however and things could change. Your own Mareanie and Togetic are already reliable way to remove t-spikes (even if for the latter, it cannot really threat mareanie and lose the eviolite on a potential knock off sucks). Mons such as Diglett, Natu or poison types such as Gloom could be played soon to stop this hegemony and I can't wait to see how we can develop our metagame around that.

Linoone-Galar
Linoone-Galar has been really good here due to the combinaison of a high speed tier and its dark type. Its speed is really important because it allows it to outspeed Silvally and if it carries the toxic orb if it is toxiced, it is even faster, without scarf than Vally after Flame charge. It is an amazing revenge killer due to the combinaison of Knock off which is very spammable and Facade which is able to 2HKO offensive Vally.It is also a very good lead due to its ability to outspeed 90% of the meta turn 1 and to pivot after that thanks to parting shot. The eviolite set is also interesting because it can sometimes be really difficult to get rid of a fast bulky mon which spams Parting Shot. Taunt is also very good move to get rid of Gourgeist-Large if necessary and finally, the few answers it gets like Pawniard can be lured by different moves such as Body Press. Really good mon overall, it's really nice to have it in this tier.

Mons I like playing

Greedent
I like it. SD Rest-talk (252 HP/240+ Def/16 Speed) is extremely good with the support of toxic spikes. Opponents will be forced to send mons to death to be able to weaken it or will be forced to set up Vally early in the game which is always good to take. I like the fact that Body slam has 30% of paralysis too, it really helps against Silvally (and Sudowoodo band by the way). It is able to tank a Super effective hit from Vally Fighting as well which is really nice. Too bad it doesn't get curse though.

Cherrim
It was better than what I hoped. The only problem is it is only viable in Sun teams but in Sun it hits really hard. Solar Beam + Weather Ball with Life orb is not something you should expect to handle. The buff in defensive special helps to handle hits from Meowstic as well. Healing wish is also in theory a nice emergency exit even if I haven't had the possibility to click it yet. Unfortunately, the fact that Silvally-Flying is common is a bit annoying. Cherrim will be a solid B rank if drought stays available.

Mons I shouldn't have used

Wailord
Wailord is probably good in rain but I did the mistake to try to play it like a regular scarfer in a normal team. Don't play specs, Octillery is better. Pressure Stall is probably a set but Vally SD alone is enough to break stall so I don't know if it's a good idea.

Baltoy
Sorry Czim but this thing is able to click a move before dying. It is able to toxic Lunatone but that's it.

Mons I should test

Rufflet
It looks very very good. It's very difficult to break its Sub with a special move and it can easily sweep a team. If it was broken in NFE, it should be at least good here.

Silvally-Electric
It looks really great right now due to its ability to handle Silvally Flying and also Mareanie

Gothitelle
I tested Oranguru which is pretty similar but I still need to see what to do with Gothitelle

Lastly, if you are like me and you love discovering a tier in watching replays, I have registered all my replays since the beginning of ZU speculative. It is not a incredible amount of replays but I hope it is sufficient to have a little idea of the tier. Anyway, here are the games I have played these last days :

Union Caboche (Balance) versus ShwiftyShiftry (Webs) (II)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus Kalucha (Balance) (II)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus 2020Inteleon (Offense)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus SputnikGT (Offense)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus 275p (Webs) (III)
Union Caboche (Stall) versus Ho3nConfirm3d (Stall) (V) (forfeit turn 0 loool)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus ShwiftyShiftry (Balance) (I)
Union Caboche (BO) versus spooktune (Balance)
Union Caboche (BO) versus asamii (Balance) (IV)
Union Caboche (BO) versus Sieffmon (BO) (II)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus Celly Berry (Balance)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus Ho3nConfirm3d (Rain) (IV)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus Tuthur1 (Offense)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus Kalucha (Balance) (I)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus Michael213 (Balance) (II)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus 275p (Webs?) (III)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus asamii (Balance) (III)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus 275p (Offense) (II)
Union Caboche (Bad team) versus BeatsBlack (Offense) (III)
Union Caboche (BO) versus BeatsBlack (BO) (II)
Union Caboche (Sun) versus BeatsBlack (Offense) (I)
Union Caboche (Sun) versus Rav3ndan (Balance)
Union Caboche (Sun) versus Aaronboyer (Webs) (II)
Union Caboche (Sun) versus Ho3nConfirm3d (Webs) (III)
Union Caboche (Bad team) versus asamii (Offense) (II)
Union Caboche (Bad team) versus Sieffmon (BO) (I)
Union Caboche (Bad team) versus asamii (HO) (I)
Union Caboche (Bad team) versus AbomasnowTheTitan (BO)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus Quagsgone (HO)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus 275p (Balance) (I)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus Ho3nConfirm3d (HO) (II)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus Epic11 (Sun) (II)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus Aaronboyer (TR) (I)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus MonkeySniper (Stack hazards)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus Ho3nConfirm3d (TR) (II)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus Fwuffy Puff (Balance)
Union Caboche (Balance) against Epic11 (HO) (I)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus Michael213 (HO) (I)
Union Caboche (Balance) versus Ho3nConfirm3d (Webs) (I)

 

[Apagogie]

Alola

Thanks to Marty, we have got the mid-month stats to make the list more accurate. Here are the changes :

Gains

Beartic
Eiscue
Maractus
Pyukumuku
Shiinotic
Silvally-Dark
Solrock
Trevenant
Morgrem
Vibrava
Vullaby

Losses

Lapras
Meowstic (Both Male and F)
Mr Mime
Pawniard
Silvally-Ground

Thank you again to Marty for making this list possible.

Have fun ~

 

[DurzaOffTopic]

sup, wanna share some sets. built a team with 5gen and it was pretty good.

I had the idea to use this set cuz wish + teleport is super good in OU and RU with the Clefs, and despite natu's kinda mediocre stats when invested right it does just what it needs to do. magic bounce is just the icing on the cake.

Natu @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Teleport
- Wish
- Roost
- Night Shade

this checks way too many of the special attackers in this tier. walls shiinotic all day too. wish + teleport is super good, and for those who don't know teleport acts as a -6 priority switch now, which means you can wish and then teleport to give any pokemon on your team a free wish up. unlike last generation, natu doesn't have to beat anything that it checks / walls, because now it can just teleport into something that offensively pressures, being a really good pivot. can also check silvally-fighting and others depending on coverage.

Cufant @ Eviolite
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Iron Head
- High Horsepower
- Power Whip

really cool rocker. steel types barely exist in this tier, but steel resists are just as uncommon. it's pretty bulky, surprisingly strong, and gets customizable coverage depending on what you want from it. ground-type coverage is pretty good for things like klang, fire-types, mareanie, and silv-electric, even though high horsepower isn't sheer force boosted. 5gen and I opted for power whip because of the water/grounds like palpitoad and whiscash, though things like play rough (sheer force boosted and hits fighting-types harder), rock slide (sheer force boosted and completes edgequake), and maybe curse could be viable as well. i didn't spend much time doing the math but im pretty sure it's better to invest in a defense stat instead of hp (because of how stats work). also i was using it with natu so less hp on cufant means it gets a higher % from wish.

also, shiinotic is super duper good.

excited to play more of this metagame coming into gen8!

 

[Apagogie]

More for History than anything else, I will post my thoughts on the meta for the last day of speculative ZU. I obviously cannot cover every topic so I will focus on what looks important for me.

Silvally-Dark

We are likely to lose it but I think it's the best mon in the tier right now. It's simply above other mons we use, its defensive and offensive aspects are unmatched. Multi-Attack is really the only thing you need to spam against the opponent. Nothing is really safe, even the strongest resist since Poison Fang is not even a bad move on it (notably against shiinotic and against whatever you want to poison). I won't elaborate much because it would be surprising that we keep it but it has been amazing in this speculative meta.

What I think about Eiscue

When Eiscue dropped, there have been a lot of complains about the way it affects the metagame. It's only the beginning so my mind could change in the future but as it stands, if the poll of mons available stays more or less the same, I think Eiscue has enough counterplays to stay in the tier.

I see three different ways to deal with it once it is at +6.

1) Priorities. We currently have different mons which have access to priorities to deal with Eiscue after belly drum. In the most reliable one that doesn't even require to break Ice Face, there is Pikachu which is able to combine Fake Out and Extreme speed for a result which is guaranteed. There is also Band Fraxure which, thanks to Mold break, is able to hit it directly. Breaking Ice Face is however not a big deal and other abusers of priorities are also able to threat it effectively such as Machoke Bullet Punch or even Shadow Sneak from Band Dusknoir.

2) Mons able to take a hit. Even at +6, Eiscue is unable to kill some mons without a crit or in flinching them and these mons are able, sometimes with some EVs, to kill it back. The most obvious example is Pyumuku which hard-walls totally Eiscue and wins the dual by pp-stalling it. Other mons also include Klang which is only 3HKO at full def by Eiscue (even if it's Liquidation, it does only mid-life). Otherwise Wartortle handles it well and KO it back with just a bit of SpA, and Palpitoad and Solrock are both able to take a hit at full life. There are probably other mons in this case (Munchlax probably handles a hit too, vally with a lot of def) but they are the main ones. In stall, shedinja also exists if you don't play pyukumuku for some reasons.

3) Taking advantage of Ice Face mechanics. If you don't break Ice Face with a physical move, Eiscue is just a mon with 50 base speed at +1, which means special scarfers are naturally able to revenge kill it such as Lunatone or Oranguru scarf. More than that, Drakloak outspeeds it without scarf and is able to kill it, even behind a sub, thanks to infiltrator. Also, if for some bad reasons Eiscue is played adamant, Vallys are technically faster than eiscue adamant at +1. It's also interesting to point out that thanks to its ability, your own Eiscue is able to revenge kill the opposite Eiscue, this time if the opposite Ice Face is broken.

If none of these options fit you, which is rare because your team will be quicker weak to other things, you still have the option to offensively pressure Eiscue to don't let it the opportunity to set up. It is of course easier to say this than to do it, but it is however possible to prevent Eiscue to be in the position to safely click Belly drum with rocks, in luring your opponent with a special move on Vally, with Taunt Linoone if it tries to set up against you, with haze on mons like Mareanie. Of course, these are not the best way to ensure a victory but it's something you are able to do if you lack of any counterplay mentioned above.

It is true that Eiscue is able to flinch you but it also able to miss a move. For me, Eiscue is a mon high risk high reward which can 6-0 your opponent if you put it in the favorable conditions in the right match up but which is also often useless otherwise. I also want to mention a last thing, some of mons are simply not EV against Eiscue and your team will be in a more favorable situation if you do. For example, Charjabug only needs 56 ev in attack to break its sub with X-Scizzor. It's not a massive loss of bulk and it allows to make Eiscue at the mercy of priorities. I say this because a lot of webs quickly lose against this sweeper because they are not able to break the sub with Charjabug.

My opinion can change with time but at the moment, I don't think that this mon is suspect worthy.

Pikachu

Pikachu looks to be one of the most powerful mon in the tier right now and I really hope it will stay belong us. Fake Out + Extreme speed is just a gift of god, every offensive threats outside of ghost types cannot sweep you if you have Pikachu because you know you just need minimum chips to revenge kill them easily. Volt Tackle removes everything a bit weaken which is not a resist (70-85% to Silvally). It doesn't have many counters either, just Shiinotic, Gourgeist Colbur, Hippopotas and maybe one or two more that I forget but the list is not very big so it's a mon which is pretty easy to support.

Charjabug

I don't think webs would be that good if Charjabug didn't exist. It just an amazing setter because webs are almost guaranteed with this mon in your team. Even if it's relatively passive, it is almost impossible to one shot (even Octillery choice specs fire blast needs a roll to be able to kill it). Volt Switch is also a good way to gain momentum, especially if there is a magic bounce user in front of you. As I said above, if you play X-Scizzor with some EV in attack you don't allow eiscue to set up for free so it's always good to take.

Drought

Before mid-stats, I had the feeling that sun would be too much to handle for the tier. With Maractus available, things are probably worse. Probably because I'm still unsure about the way we could handle sun in this tier.

On one hand, Fighting sun if you don't have any counterplay is like being a punching-ball during 15 turns. Solar Beam/Weather Ball does at least 80% to every mon which doesn't resist it and these mons are bulky enough to don't die from most of hits or from priorities. Defensively, the counterplay is pretty limited because even if you run bulky dragon types, sun teams have the possibility to hit them super effectively with drain punch from Maractus or with Play Rough from Cherrim. Here is a replay where I fought 275p who used stall with spd zweilous, pyukumuku and togetic as answers to sun teams. I just needed 2 predicts to sweep his team and he played that game relatively well in doing a lot of predicts to take advantage of the life orb recoil. Outside of stall, other archetypes don't have the room to run many counters to sun (mainly dragon types) and these mons, for most of them, are not always welcome in most of teams.

On the other hand, the counterplay against sun exists. There are Linoone-Galar toxiced which is faster than sun sweepers, priorities from Pikachu with Fake Out + Extreme Speed, Fraxure First Impression, Glalie Ice shard. There are also hippopotas with Sand Stream and dragons type such as Zweilous/Hakamo-O/Sliggo which are able to stall turns effectively in waiting to pressure the opponent offensively. Even Silvally with flame charge is a threat for opposite sun teams. If sun is a playstyle totally brainless, it really depends on the match up and you are sometimes destroyed when you don't face the right mon. The match up against Pikachu is especially very difficult. I did an effort to be prepared to face this playstyle and I rarely lose against sun these last days even if that doesn't really mean anything considering the sample was low. However, it still means that at least a form of counterplay exists more or less even if it is not perfect.

I still think that Drought has an unhealthy impact until here because a lot of good builds otherwise are simply harmless against sun and it kills the diversity of builds. I think even without Drought, sun teams will be stay playable to some extent because Onix is a good setter but it will definitely less difficult to manage. With Vulpix, you need one or two turns to set up sun up, depending on the fact that you sacrifice it or not against two or three for manual setters and you have more counterplay such as one shot them, taunt them, etc.

It is obviously far too early to decide if it's an issue for the tier or not since we are not even in alpha but I think it's important to notice to have at least a post which highlights the impact of sun in the metagame. Drought could definitely have its place in the metagame but I doubt it is positive for the tier.

Glalie

I'm generally not the guy who likes playing offense but I admit that Glalie is fun, even if difficult, to play. I think the best set is Life Orb Adamant with Icicle Crash/Eq/Ice shard/Spikes which does approximately everything you should expect when you play a Glalie, a powerful mon able to spikes the opponent and to revenge kill weaken vallys/offensive mons with Ice shard. The only problem is it really dies quickly so a set with boots is certainly alright to take advantage of its good bulk for the tier. I'm really glad we have a tier where it is playable.

Duosion

It's probably a hot take since Duosion is underexplored now and very rare, since this speculative meta just has a couple of days, but I think Duosion will be a problem soon or late. Mons available in the tier just don't do enough damage to prevent Duosion to set up if there is no dark or psychic types with set up in the opposite team. It's certainly possible to bait it with Trick or in sending a strong wallbreaker but it is just unreliable. Duosion just needs one turn of set up to be in the position to win the 1v1 versus stronger physical attackers such as Vally or Sudowoodo band. Every boost in defence is also a boost in attack considering it gets stored power this gen and after 2/3 turns of set up, that's generally over. With Calm mind and Acid Armor, it honestly reminds me Musharna of last gen. Since we are likely to lose Vally Dark, I only see it becoming better. It's the only current mon that I'm pretty sure that it will be an issue later.

Of course, time will tell if I'm right or wrong but we should definitely be careful about Duosion


Pyukumuku

I hope we will lose it because stall looks really strong with Pyukumuku and considering a lot of mons outisde of Vally don't hit hard enough, this playstyle will be a pain to deal with in tournaments.

Shiinotic

I haven't played it myself but I faced it many times and it is good as well. It is one of the only mon which is able to punish Pikachu and it really does have limited switch ins considering Spore is almost always free. A very good partner with Shiinotic on paper is Klang because this core has a good match up against every physical vally without Iron Head/Poison fang. In practise, you take two slots which don't have any roll in hazard control so you quickly end playing a semi stall but I still think this core is really powerful to stop a lot of threats in the current metagame.



It was my thoughts on the metagame, ZU tomorrow for ZU alpha.