Metagame Sword and Shield Data and Speculation

[Minority]

(Approved by Nayrz)

​

Smogon Information Threads:
Smogon SS Datamine Thread
Changes to old Pokemon, Moves, etc.


Datamine Pastebins:
Pokemon / Types / Stats / Abilities / etc
Learnsets by Pokemon (Part 1)
Learnsets by Pokemon (Part 2)
Learnsets by Move
Move Descriptions
Ability Descriptions
Foreign Event Pokemon


Formerly Ubers Viable Pokemon:

Future Event Pokemon:
Venusaur, Blastoise, Mewtwo, Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, Cobalion, Terrakion, Virizion, Reshiram, Zekrom, Kyurem, Keldeo, Decidueye, Incineroar, Primarina, Solgaleo, Lunala, Necrozma, Marshadow, Zeraora, Melmetal


Important Pokemon / Mechanics Changes:
- All Z Moves, Hidden Power, Pursuit, Return, and Frustration have been removed
- Aegislash defenses have been nerfed by 10 points, and King's Shield reduces Attack by 1 stage
- Rapid Spin raises the user's Speed by 1 stage


Uber Exclusives:

Zacian (Base Forme)
Galar Dex: #398
Base Stats: 92 HP / 130 ATK / 115 DEF / 80 SPA / 115 SPD / 138 SPE / 670 BST
Abilities: Intrepid Sword
Ability Effect: Boosts the Pokemon's Attack stat upon entering battle
Type: Fairy
Moves: Swords Dance, Agility, Substitute, Iron Tail, Crunch, Close Combat, Thunder Fang, Ice Fang, Fire Fang, Iron Head, Wild Charge, Play Rough, Solar Blade, Psychic Fangs, Laser Focus, Moonblast, Snarl, Tail Slap, Sacred Sword, Work Up, Retaliate, Quick Guard, Round, Psycho Cut, Giga Impact, Focus Blast, Air Slash, Assurance, Howl, Hyper Voice, Imprison, Brick Break, Revenge, Helping Hand, Facade, Metal Claw, Sleep Talk, False Swipe, Endure, Scary Face, Protect, Reversal, Snore, Slash, Rest, Swift, Focus Energy, Quick Attack, Dig, Hyper Beam, Bite

Zacian-Crowned
Galar Dex: #398
Base Stats: 92 HP / 170 ATK / 115 DEF / 80 SPA / 115 SPD / 148 SPE / 720 BST
Abilities: Intrepid Sword
Type: Fairy / Steel
Moves: Same as base

Zamazenta (Base Forme)
Galar Dex: #399
Base Stats: 92 HP / 130 ATK / 115 DEF / 80 SPA / 115 SPD / 138 SPE / 670 BST
Abilities: Dauntless Shield
Ability Effect: Boosts the Pokemon's Defense stat upon entering battle
Type: Fighting
Moves: Agility, Substitute, Iron Tail, Crunch, Iron Defense, Metal Burst, Close Combat, Thunder Fang, Ice Fang, Fire Fang, Iron Head, Wild Charge, Play Rough, Psychic Fangs, Bite, Hyper Beam, Solar Beam, Dig, Quick Attack, Light Screen, Reflect, Focus Energy, Swift, Rest, Slash, Snore, Reversal, Endure, Sleep Talk, Scary Face, Safeguard, Metal Claw, Facade, Helping Hand, Revenge, Imprison, Hyper Voice, Howl, Payback, Power Swap, Guard Swap, Focus Blast, Giga Impact, Flash Cannon, Wide Guard, Round, Retaliate, Work Up, Tail Slap, Snarl, Moonblast, Dazzling Gleam, Laser Focus

Zamazenta-Crowned
Galar Dex: #399
Base Stats: 92 HP / 130 ATK / 145 DEF / 80 SPA / 145 SPD / 128 SPE / 720 BST
Abilities: Dauntless Shield
Ability Effect: Boosts the Pokemon's Defense stat upon entering battle
Type: Fighting / Steel
Moves: Same as base

Eternatus
Galar Dex: #400
Base Stats: 140 HP / 85 ATK / 95 DEF / 145 SPA / 95 SPD / 130 SPE / 690 BST
Abilities: Pressure
Type: Poison / Dragon
Moves: Eternabeam, Dynamax Cannon, Mystical Fire, Dragon Tail, Sludge Wave, Venoshock, Flash Cannon, Dragon Pulse, Toxic Spikes, Dragon Dance, Mud Shot, Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, Substitute, Recover, Agility, Toxic, Solar Beam, Flamethrower, Brutal Swing, Venom Drench, Round, Cross Poison, Giga Impact, Poison Jab, Assurance, Payback, Cosmic Power, Facade, Sleep Talk, Rest, Endure, Snore, Scary Face, Protect, Reflect, Light Screen, Confuse Ray, Screech, Solar Beam, Hyper Beam, Fly
Eternabeam: This is Eternatus' most powerful attack in its original form. The user can't move next turn.
Dynamax Cannon: The user unleashes a strong beam from its core. This move deals twice the damage if the target is Dynamaxed.



~

 

[Nayrz]

This metagame is looking to be very offensive in nature as we lose a lot of natural bulk in the meta with the lack of Arceus formes. Primal Groudon's vanishing and the Dynamax mechanics also drastically open the metagame to be looked at from completely different angles. Add that to the new additions and we're in for a very fresh tier.

While we do have a bunch of returners, we don't know if/how they will be staggered as event releases. While Dusk and Marshadow appear to have made it back in, their impact on the metagame is difficult to call as they may come in at different times. My guess is that the mons classed as a "Foreign Species" will be introduced to the game via max raids, similarly to how Pokemon Go does it. So with that in mind, my eyes (and sets) are mainly aiming around the new mons. Here's how I see the main Pokemon in the tier to start with:

Zacian

There's little doubt this will be a top mon. Steel/Fairy with 170 Attack / 148 Speed and a free boost when its in means its main limitation is in its coverage options. Based on the pastebins, I'd guess the set to look like this:

Zacian @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Play Rough
- Close Combat / Fire Fang
- Psychic Fangs / Crunch / Behemoth Blade

(Behemoth Blade = 100 BP Steel, 2x dmg vs Dynamax)

It's obvious an SD set will result from Zacian, but the coverage entirely depends on how the meta forms around it. I'd be here for a while debating all the mons that will come up as a result of Zacian, so just look at the coverage and do some thinking. Dropping SD for coverage could well work out if there's too many defensive checks running around, which I think is likely due to its offensive strength. Dropping the item for Life Orb could even be a possibility to boost the damage of its coverage following the same line of thought as earlier. I think the Steel-type STAB isn't necessary here when the added coverage hits more mons, but its too early to say for sure.

We also have to note that it has the best defensive typing in the game and 92 / 115 / 115 defenses. Finding setup chances shouldn't be difficult.

So how does the meta deal with this mon? Well, I have one early idea...

Aegislash @ Iron Ball
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- King's Shield
- Gyro Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword

252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian: 253-298 (77.8 - 91.6%)
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian: 67-81 (20.6 - 24.9%)

However it isn't quite that simple. Checking Zacian is going to require doubling up on checks and beating it down offensively. Coverage will make all the difference when facing it. Aegislash does fine until it runs into Fire Fang or Crunch sets, which could well become common to beat Aegislash.

+3 252 Atk Zacian-S Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 324-382 (100 - 117.9%)
+3 252 Atk Zacian-S Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 398-470 (122.8 - 145%)

Yes, these calcs are working with the nerfs to Aegislash's base stats. Still, Aegislash is going to be pretty relevant in this meta. The typing means a lot when we consider the bunch of other mons that are going to appear here, but being able to counter attack some Zacian sets is a big thing.

I'm pretty excited to see the fresh meta and innovation that will result from the new gen. At the moment I can't even begin to figure out how Dynamax will impact the tier. Its such a big change to the way battles will play out that I can only speculate about mons from a more "classical" perspective. The movepool additions to many mons that I'm sure other users will mention means its going to be a huge shake up, and speculating is fun.

 

[Cynara]

I do agree that Sword & Shield will be looking like it is going to be a more offensive meta which is a drastic change from that of Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon, which is indeed a more bulkier meta but still offensive, Sword & Shield honestly makes a good refresh for Pokemon generations to come and I'm very excited for the upcoming metagame.

Zacian is rather menacing and I 100% agree it will be a top Pokemon in this metagame. Nayrz has already covered the Steel / Fairy Zacian, but I feel the base forme Zacian has a lot of merit to it. Base forme has the advantage of holding an item such as Life Orb and still gets the +1 Attack boost on switch in which makes in terms of damage output it is actually stronger with this combination, therefore base Zacian is actually better at breaking than its Sword forme counterpart (Im going to call it this due to the lack of no better name) and also of course the freedom of item allowing it to explore different sets.

Pure Fairy is also a good typing especially for an offensive Pokemon with access to stellar coverage and Play Rough - This makes it a good option for teams that don't want to stack their team with yet another steel type and lacks a Ground Type weakness. The STAB steel type offered by Zacian-Sword does not come into play much due to the importance of coverage hitting main checks, meaning you need to find room for Close Combat, Crunch, Fire Fang, Psychic Fangs, Wild Charge on a Swords Dance set to capitalise on the main Zacian answers. The +10 base speed isn't really that crucial either as there isn't really anything above Base 138 that can really take advantage of Zacian (you tie base Zamazenta but its more afraid of you than anything) and you still outpace Eternatus.

Zamazenta feels like it got the short end of the stick, Its bulk is amazing, but its a Fighting (base) and Fighting / Steel type (Shield) which is kind of average defensively and unlike its counterpart, Zacian, It doesn't get Swords Dance to backup its offensive movepool and has no options to go out offensively, especially with an ability such as Dauntless shield this would have been a god send for a setup sweeper, which is really unfortunate. Defensively, it doesn't get many support moves either to take advantage of, neither any reliable recovery, so it just feels like rather a beatstick Pokemon. 130 base attack is no slouch however and STAB Close Combat, with high speed means it will have some uses, such as a good offensive revenge killer and a good stop to steel types, but it obviously does pale a bit in comparison to Zacian and there definitely will be some merit to this Pokemon.

Eternatus initially before the revealed stats and moves was one I honestly feared in the ubers metagame, offensively it is still a formidable Pokemon, but the fears of Nasty Plot and stronger coverage were in the air after the rumours/leaks of it being a Technical record which are indeed true, but luckily for us it got none of those. Its movepool features Toxic Spikes and Eternatus sports amazing bulk for such a specially offensive Pokemon so I feel Support sets would be niche sets worth exploring in the future. Obviously Poison / Dragon with those kind of stats is something to take heavily in consideration when teambuilding, its signature move, Dynamax Cannon is very interesting and a reliable spammable Dragon Type move, especially since it appears Draco Meteor got the cut, with no Pokemon being able to learn it in Sword & Shield.

Nayrz has already pointed out Aegislash, but in a very offensive metagame, I feel like Ditto is very worth exploring in gen 8 Ubers, we have a terrifying amount of offensive Pokemon and Ditto is probably the best anti-offense answer Pokemon provides us with, so it is 100% worth exploring, other mentions should go to Tyranitar as a Eternatus Check and Excadrill also directly benefits being faster than the box art legends in the Sand which could also provide another good offensive Pokemon that may pop up in the future Ubers metagame.

I understand it is too early to speculate about the 35 other Pokemon that were discovered from the datamine and the future 2 mythicals that were scrubbed from the game until GameFreak decide to release them. Obviously Zekrom, Reshiram, Necrozma, Marshadow, Mewtwo, Solgaleo and Lunala are the most relevant Pokemon to Ubers, whether they can be obtained already is unknown, but I believe their additions would greatly be welcomed. Dragon Dance Zekrom, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane and Marshadow would obviously bring a lot more variety to the meta and being more positive changes which I feel is rather exciting.

 

[Ropalme1914]

Excadrill seems to be pretty potent tbh. Ground-type is AMAZING here due to it dealing super effective damage to all three of the new legendaries + Necrozma-DM and Zekrom (which is another Pokémon that look very threatening to me with DD). Sand Rush outspeeds basically everything except maybe something like Scarf Zamazenta. Although SR doesn't seems as efective here due to the lack of Flying-types and rock weak Pokémon, I'm pretty sure that Spikes still is going to be good, which also makes Rapid Spin more valuable when we lost almost all of our defoggers.

Also, what deals with Nasty Plot Mewtwo? Zacian can maybe revenge kill it, but I don't think anything here can come in between Psystrike, Fire Blast, and Shadow Ball.

 

[bigtalk]

Zacian seems completely dumb. Looking at this chart, it appears basically all of the sturdy Fairy resists have been removed from SwSh, including all of the usual geoxern checks as well as Forretress, Scizor, Skarmory, Metagross, Klefki, Amoonguss, Heatran, etc. Zacian gets Swords Dance / Wild Charge / Close Combat so it's basically a physical geoxern, but it doesn't even have to run Wild Charge because most of the targets like Ho-Oh / Celesteela aren't around, so it can run Psychic Fangs for Poison-types / Crunch for Aegislash and Bronzong instead.

I predict it's going to have the same effect as the meta as Ultra where basically every team is forced to run a scarfer (or maybe sand rush driller) + healthy dose of prio in order to not lose to it, even then, you could probably throw it on a webs team to work around this (it even outspeeds sand rush driller under webs which is insane). Even Ditto won't be able to properly revenge kill it provided it hasn't used Swords Dance yet, since Zacian kind of walls itself (Ditto uses cc first, which does about 70% and drops its own defenses, then it dies to Zacian's cc because of the Defense drop).

edit: I think I found a counter (sort of). Provided Zacian isn't running Wild Charge, Pyukumuku should be able to deal with it because it ignores the initial Attack boost

252 Atk Zacian-S Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 111-132 (35.3 - 42%) -- 86.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Max defense hippo also narrowly avoids getting 2HKOed, so should be a good check with helmet:

+1 252 Atk Zacian-S Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 178-210 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

edit 2: My bad I didn't realize Dusk Mane was in too

 

[GG Unit]

Zamazenta should be a pretty solid check to it where even if it switches in on Swords Dance, it can Dynamax to take even CC and do a lot back (and definitely KO after a Defense Drop or if Zacian itself Dynamaxed) with its STAB. Shedinja with Heavy-Duty Boots will force it into running coverage while Toxapex will wall sets without Psychic Fangs. Things like Scarf Ditto and Sash Marshadow whenever it comes out will prevent Zacian from getting too set-up happy. Sand will probably come up as an offensive answer to it, since Excadrill seems buffed with the removal of lots of Ground-immune legendaries as well as the weather trio (as an extra bonus, Tyranitar is one of the few viable Stealth Rock users left). The more I think of it, what's going to be stopping Banded EQ/Max Quake under Sand?

Eternatus will have lots of viable sets, but Cosmic Power + Recover will be extremely difficult to take down and might become its most-used one. If Zacian switches in on Cosmic Power expecting a STAB move, it's now walled unless it has Swords Dance. Cosmic Power/Recover/Sludge Wave/Flamethrower is basically StallTwo with better bulk, a Toxic immunity, and the ability to boost if need be with Max Ooze.

 

[bigtalk]

Zamazenta should be a pretty solid check to it where even if it switches in on Swords Dance, it can Dynamax to take even CC and do a lot back (and definitely KO after a Defense Drop) with its STAB.

Zamazenta doesn't resist Fairy, and even if you choose to run max hp / max def it can potentially be 2HKOed by Close Combat:

+1 252 Atk Zacian-S Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta-S: 180-214 (46.3 - 55.1%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO

I'm not too familiar on the Dynamaxing mechanics yet so I won't comment on that part.

Shedinja with Heavy-Duty Boots will force it into running coverage while Toxapex will wall sets without Psychic Fangs.

Can't they just run both Fire Fang + Psychic Fangs to hit both Toxapex and Shedinja?

Scarf Ditto

I don't think Ditto can revenge kill it properly. Zacian is able to live +1 cc from itself, then after Ditto gets a defense drop it can kill Ditto with its own cc.

Sash Marshadow

No... (edit: although, maybe scarf will be a thing?)

 

[earl]

I do agree that Sword & Shield will be looking like it is going to be a more offensive meta which is a drastic change from that of Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon, which is indeed a more bulkier meta but still offensive, Sword & Shield honestly makes a good refresh for Pokemon generations to come and I'm very excited for the upcoming metagame.

Zacian is rather menacing and I 100% agree it will be a top Pokemon in this metagame. Nayrz has already covered the Steel / Fairy Zacian, but I feel the base forme Zacian has a lot of merit to it. Base forme has the advantage of holding an item such as Life Orb and still gets the +1 Attack boost on switch in which makes in terms of damage output it is actually stronger with this combination, therefore base Zacian is actually better at breaking than its Sword forme counterpart (Im going to call it this due to the lack of no better name) and also of course the freedom of item allowing it to explore different sets.

Pure Fairy is also a good typing especially for an offensive Pokemon with access to stellar coverage and Play Rough - This makes it a good option for teams that don't want to stack their team with yet another steel type and lacks a Ground Type weakness. The STAB steel type offered by Zacian-Sword does not come into play much due to the importance of coverage hitting main checks, meaning you need to find room for Close Combat, Crunch, Fire Fang, Psychic Fangs, Wild Charge on a Swords Dance set to capitalise on the main Zacian answers. The +10 base speed isn't really that crucial either as there isn't really anything above Base 138 that can really take advantage of Zacian (you tie base Zamazenta but its more afraid of you than anything) and you still outpace Eternatus.

Zamazenta feels like it got the short end of the stick, Its bulk is amazing, but its a Fighting (base) and Fighting / Steel type (Shield) which is kind of average defensively and unlike its counterpart, Zacian, It doesn't get Swords Dance to backup its offensive movepool and has no options to go out offensively, especially with an ability such as Dauntless shield this would have been a god send for a setup sweeper, which is really unfortunate. Defensively, it doesn't get many support moves either to take advantage of, neither any reliable recovery, so it just feels like rather a beatstick Pokemon. 130 base attack is no slouch however and STAB Close Combat, with high speed means it will have some uses, such as a good offensive revenge killer and a good stop to steel types, but it obviously does pale a bit in comparison to Zacian and there definitely will be some merit to this Pokemon.

Eternatus initially before the revealed stats and moves was one I honestly feared in the ubers metagame, offensively it is still a formidable Pokemon, but the fears of Nasty Plot and stronger coverage were in the air after the rumours/leaks of it being a Technical record which are indeed true, but luckily for us it got none of those. Its movepool features Toxic Spikes and Eternatus sports amazing bulk for such a specially offensive Pokemon so I feel Support sets would be niche sets worth exploring in the future. Obviously Poison / Dragon with those kind of stats is something to take heavily in consideration when teambuilding, its signature move, Dynamax Cannon is very interesting and a reliable spammable Dragon Type move, especially since it appears Draco Meteor got the cut, with no Pokemon being able to learn it in Sword & Shield.

Nayrz has already pointed out Aegislash, but in a very offensive metagame, I feel like Ditto is very worth exploring in gen 8 Ubers, we have a terrifying amount of offensive Pokemon and Ditto is probably the best anti-offense answer Pokemon provides us with, so it is 100% worth exploring, other mentions should go to Tyranitar as a Eternatus Check and Excadrill also directly benefits being faster than the box art legends in the Sand which could also provide another good offensive Pokemon that may pop up in the future Ubers metagame.

I understand it is too early to speculate about the 35 other Pokemon that were discovered from the datamine and the future 2 mythicals that were scrubbed from the game until GameFreak decide to release them. Obviously Zekrom, Reshiram, Necrozma, Marshadow, Mewtwo, Solgaleo and Lunala are the most relevant Pokemon to Ubers, whether they can be obtained already is unknown, but I believe their additions would greatly be welcomed. Dragon Dance Zekrom, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane and Marshadow would obviously bring a lot more variety to the meta and being more positive changes which I feel is rather exciting.

Slight correction, Draco Meteor is still present in the game, as the rental dracopult had Draco Meteor in its moveset. It can be assumed all dragons still get it

 

[GG Unit]

Zamazenta doesn't resist Fairy, and even if you choose to run max hp / max def it can potentially be 2HKOed by Close Combat:

+1 252 Atk Zacian-S Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta-S: 180-214 (46.3 - 55.1%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO

I'm not too familiar on the Dynamaxing mechanics yet so I won't comment on that part.

Sorry but this is a pretty low-quality post. Dynamax doubles the user's HP. I wouldn't have mentioned it if I didn't know what it did, so why would you try to crap on what someone else wrote without having a clue?

Can't they just run both Fire Fang + Psychic Fangs to hit both Toxapex and Shedinja?

It sure could, and that would make it easier for everything else if Zacian is using low BP non-STAB moves rather than STAB moves or Swords Dance. This is Ubers where you can't just mindlessly switch something in on a threat and expect to wall it regardless of the set it's running.

I don't think Ditto can't revenge kill it properly. Zacian is able to live +1 cc from itself, then after Ditto gets a defense drop it can kill Ditto with its own cc.

Its signature move does more damage to itself than Close Combat and is in fact a guaranteed KO with the tiniest bit of chip damage. Also setting up means it would be at +3 rather than +1, which would obviously be a guaranteed OHKO. Please do better rather than spreading misinformation.

 

[bigtalk]

Sorry but this is a pretty low-quality post. Dynamax doubles the user's HP. I wouldn't have mentioned it if I didn't know what it did, so why would you try to crap on what someone else wrote without having a clue?

I wasn't trying to "crap on what you wrote," just trying to stimulate the discussion a little bit. I'm sorry if you interpreted it that way, but there's no need to get defensive.

It sure could, and that would make it easier for everything else if Zacian is using low BP non-STAB moves rather than Swords Dance. This is Ubers where you can't just mindlessly switch something in on a threat and expect to wall it regardless of the set it's running.

No, I was saying that it could run Swords Dance / Play Rough / Fire Fang / Psychic Fangs, since that's honestly all the coverage it needs.

Its signature move does more damage to itself than Close Combat and is in fact a guaranteed KO with the tiniest bit of chip damage. Also setting up means it would be at +3 rather than +1. Please do better rather than spreading misinformation.

I was assuming a set without Behemoth Blade, because Steel does not really offer any useful coverage alongside Fairy, so idk if there is much reason to run it. Also, I didn't say that Zacian had set up prior.

 

[GG Unit]

I wasn't trying to "crap on what you wrote," just trying to stimulate the discussion a little bit. I'm sorry if you interpreted it that way, but there's no need to get defensive.

No, I was saying that it could run Swords Dance / Play Rough / Fire Fang / Psychic Fangs, since that's honestly all the coverage it needs.

I was assuming a set without Behemoth Blade, because Steel does not really offer any useful coverage alongside Fairy, so idk if there is much reason to run it. Also, I didn't say that Zacian had set up prior.

What you "contributed:"

1. Saying 'nu uh that doesn't work' when you didn't know how Dynamax worked and were completely wrong.

2. Suggesting that a Pokemon should run random coverage moves to beat possible checks rather than either Swords Dance or its strongest and only accurate STAB move (that also does double damage to Dynamax Pokemon, which is almost certainly a bigger deal than you think given you didn't even know what kind of boosts Dynamax gave in the first place). This is akin to saying that any random Uber should run Stone Edge to beat Ho-Oh; sure it would help it do that, but if it's that specialized to beat one thing it's not going to be as threatening against everything else.

3. Saying 'No' (way to stimulate discussion there) in response to Sash Marshadow even though the metagame certainly looks to be more offensive with significantly fewer hazard setters and phazers available to use.


Anyways for some actual discussion, a Choice Scarf should be a very good item this generation as there are no pink blobs to uniformly wall any unboosted special attackers and the Scarfers can call on extra power to break through things with Max moves. Something like Scarf Reshiram or Darmanitan will hit obscenely hard with a Max Flare off a normally 120+ BP move that sets up Sun in the process, especially with no Kyogre around.

 

[bigtalk]

2. Suggesting that a Pokemon should run random coverage moves to beat possible checks rather than either Swords Dance or its strongest and only accurate STAB move (that also does double damage to Dynamax Pokemon, which is almost certainly a bigger deal than you think given you didn't even know what kind of boosts Dynamax gave in the first place). This is akin to saying that any random Uber should run Stone Edge to beat Ho-Oh; sure it would help it do that, but if it's that specialized to beat one thing it's not going to be as threatening against everything else.

I was saying that it might naturally want to run SD / Play Rough / Fire Fang / Psychic Fangs (Fire Fang > Close Combat still hits steels and you avoid getting walled by Aegislash), not specifically to beat the core you devised. I can't claim to know whether people will want to use Zacian's signature move, but since Steel doesn't offer that much useful coverage alongside Fairy, I'm not sure if using it alongside Play Rough would be the best option.

Saying 'No' (way to stimulate discussion there) in response to Sash Marshadow even though the metagame certainly looks to be more offensive with significantly fewer hazard setters and phazers available to use.

Well I was trying to be humorous (oof) because, quite frankly, Sash Marshadow is a bad set. Given that Zacian outspeeds Marshadow, you'd also be totally dependent on keeping rocks off in order to revenge kill it. It doesn't matter if there are "fewer hazard setters"-- as long as every team still has a Stealth Rock setter, then Sash Marshadow shouldn't be any more effective than it is right now.

 

[Rasengan777]

Why is everything so fucking fast

 

[かたわれ時]

I still think Eternatus-Gigantamax is gonna be the most OP Pokemon. Excuse me Gamefreak, did you type wrongly? Why does this beast have like, 1125 BST?
If you don’t ban it to EG (Everything Goes, or maybe Hackmons actually) this boy is gonna make Ubers go boom.

Edit: some calcs (I changed the name of course but everything works the same):

252+ Atk Eternatus-Gigantamax Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Blissey: 1237-1456 (173.2 - 203.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Power Tripped these 5 calcs: most likely you will survive the opponent’s attack due to 140 HP pre-gigantamax)

252+ Atk Eternatus-Gigantamax Giga Impact vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 396-467 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Chansey is one of the only mons that can tank a hit, but after two DDs (or you can do one and SR chip will take it down):
+2 252+ Atk Eternatus-Gignatamax Giga Impact vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 793-933 (112.8 - 132.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

252+ SpA Eternatus-Gigantamax Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 388-460 (110.2 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Eternatus-Gigantamax Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 176-208 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (ok fine Pex doesn’t die either)

I admit these are best-case situations, but I’m trying to illustrate to you how ridiculous this mon is. Let’s see what can kill it:

+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Steel (I think that was the name) Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eternatus-Gigantamax: 130-154 (19.9 - 23.6%) -- possible 5HKO (note that this is 0 HP / 0 Def)

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eternatus-Gigantamax: 354-416 (54.3 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (even subzero slammer fails to OHKO. Oh sure you could always dance. Yeah but I was calculating 0 HP / 0 Def)
+6 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eternatus-Gigantamax: 1256-1482 (175.9 - 207.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (yeah this is +6. Alright you win)

252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eternatus-Gigantamax: 130-153 (18.2 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO (oh this is cute. It can Dance? Ok, here’s another calc:
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eternatus-Gigantamax: 512-604 (71.7 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO still doesn’t OHKO!)

Meanwhile a 252 SpA one can deal the same damage:
252 SpA Eternatus-Gigantamax Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza: 296-350 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (SR damage will kill it! And this is MEGA RAYQUAZA. Gamefreak...)

 

[Guard]

I haven't seen anyone mention the addition of Nasty Plot in Mewtwo's movepool. Considering the fact that Calm Mind MMY is a potent anti-meta pick in current Uber already, Nasty Plot is going to exponentially make it better (regular Mewtwo that is, since mega stones are out). It can also afford to invest in defense in order to live Marshadow's LO Shadow Sneak, with Nasty Plot significantly boosting SpA already, and the removal of Yveltal and Pursuit in general makes it even better.

Also, are there any plans for a National Dex Ubers?

 

[mertyville]

Kyurem-White got Freeze Dry. Not sure if that could see much worth considering it is even weaker than Ice Beam and the Water Types being insanely specially bulky traditionally in Ubers. Tho most are gone so not much changed for the Dragon except more threats appearing before it who are insanely faster and have good offenses with powerful boosting moves.

I really don't get why so many Pokemon get removed and then they add even more broken stuff into the game. Genesect's random free boosts are nothing to a guarantied free attack boost to a 130/170 base atk dog who is even faster than Mewtwo. Even the devensive dog is faster than Mashadow and has Ho-oh's attack stat in both forme.
Then you have that not Naganagel with already impressive Special Attack and speed with a form that gives it BST that make Mega Rayquaza look like a joke. I assume it's the Gigantamax forme, so just 3 turns but then it also gets Dynamax Moves to make up for the decrease in it's Special Attack.

 

[Guard]

Then you have that not Naganagel with already impressive Special Attack and speed with a form that gives it BST that make Mega Rayquaza look like a joke. I assume it's the Gigantamax forme, so just 3 turns but then it also gets Dynamax Moves to make up for the decrease in it's Special Attack.

That is Eternatus' Eternamax form, which you are not allowed to catch in-game, so it probably is moot to talk about it in a competitive sense.

E: You are allowed to catch it, but it will revert into its normal form and you do not have access to it anymore.

 

[かたわれ時]

not allowed to catch in-game,

You’ll get it somehow, otherwise why did they program it into the game?
Also do you think Mewtwo could possibly defeat Eternatus-Gigantamax (or Eternamax, whatever)?

 

[Guard]

You’ll get it somehow, otherwise why did they program it into the game?
Also do you think Mewtwo could possibly defeat Eternatus-Gigantamax (or Eternamax, whatever)?

You won't, it's programmed in the game because

Spoiler

It's the final raid boss battle that concludes the story

Also no, if it lives +6 Mega Ray Dragon Ascent, I can't see anything defeating this.

On a more general note, it's interesting to see that Eternatus gets Recover in addition to Toxic Spikes. We have never had a reliable Toxic Spiker in Ubers.

 

[かたわれ時]

Spoiler

It's the final raid boss battle that concludes the story

Sad. I wanted to kill everybody with it.

Also, it will NEVER be Ubers. It’s gonna be banned from AG at this rate. Oh wait you’re talking about the normal Eternatus.

 

[mertyville]

That is Eternatus' Eternamax form, which you are not allowed to catch in-game, so it probably is moot to talk about it in a competitive sense.

https://clips.twitch.tv/CogentAntsyScorpionCharlieBitMe?tt_medium=clips&tt_content=recommendation <- is that the form by the way we are talking about? SPOILERS BTW

 

[Guard]

https://clips.twitch.tv/CogentAntsyScorpionCharlieBitMe?tt_medium=clips&tt_content=recommendation <- is that the form by the way we are talking about? SPOILERS BTW

Yes, and I know it seems you can use the form, but the game does not allow you to Eternamax that caught Eternatus.

 

[Ropalme1914]

I haven't seen anyone mention the addition of Nasty Plot in Mewtwo's movepool. Considering the fact that Calm Mind MMY is a potent wallbreaker in current Uber already, Nasty Plot is going to exponentially make it better (regular Mewtwo that is, since mega stones are out). It can also afford to invest in defense in order to live Marshadow's LO Shadow Sneak, with Nasty Plot significantly boosting SpA already, and the removal of Yveltal and Pursuit in general makes it even better.

Also, are there any plans for a National Dex Ubers?

I actually did mention it
Anyway, yeah, it seems like Mewtwo is once again the Pokémon that you deal with via revenge killing due to its sheer force. Since we don't have things like Yveltal or even the Dragon-types that were 4x weak to Ice, I think Shadow Ball is the best option for the last instead, as it allows you to hit opposing Mewtwo and, most importantly, Lunala. Nasty Plot / Psystrike / Fire Blast / Shadow Ball hits all Ubers except the Unova trio and base Zacian for super effective damage while the others take neutral damage to Psystrike.
From what actually can revenge kill it:

+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 327-385 (92.6 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Zacian Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 313-370 (88.6 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Both formes of Zacian have a roll against Mewtwo withe their STABs that's basically guaranteed after one Life Orb recoil or one layer of Spikes while Crunch is always guaranteed, with the added benefit of base Zacian not being OHKOed by any of Mewtwo's coverage move.

252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 283-334 (80.1 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

CB Zekrom straight up OHKOes easily while Choice Scarf needs 2 LO recoils.

Scarf Lunala remains one of the best options even if it does run Shadow Ball, as Moongeist Beam OHKOes and Shadow Ball doesn't OHKO when Shadow Shield is up, not to mention that it takes 0 damage from any other of its moves.

Of course we all know the damage from LO Marshadow Shadow Sneak, but I've been thinking, maybe Choice Scarf can be good too? Not only for Mewtwo in this case (Spectral Thief is a roll), but this generation, almost all Ubers are faster than it or have Dragon Dance, making it a pretty decent answer to most of these (especially by scaring out Zacian of using SD, as the lack of Dark-types mean that a +3 Spectral Thief easily sweeps even when Choice-locked).

Sp. Def Necrozma-DM can take one +2 Fire Blast, but it can't do much back unless it's Weakness Policy or setup something like Trick Room, which are most employed om offensive sets.

Tyranitar remains a good answer to it, especially by completely walling the above set (or literally any set that lacks Focus Blast).

We also have to consider Dynamaxes, which increases a Pokémon bulk by quite a lot. Although most of Mewtwo's coverage moves don't give it very good effects (like Max Shadow, which just lowers the opponent's Defense), its main STAB do give it a very potent one: Psychic Terrain. Idk, this probably is the best Mewtwo we ever had for years

 

[Rasengan777]

I haven't seen anyone mention the addition of Nasty Plot in Mewtwo's movepool. Considering the fact that Calm Mind MMY is a potent anti-meta pick in current Uber already, Nasty Plot is going to exponentially make it better (regular Mewtwo that is, since mega stones are out). It can also afford to invest in defense in order to live Marshadow's LO Shadow Sneak, with Nasty Plot significantly boosting SpA already, and the removal of Yveltal and Pursuit in general makes it even better.

Also, are there any plans for a National Dex Ubers?

Yeah I think showdown is going to do something called Legacy Ubers that will be a metagame with national dex.

 

[Rarycaris]

A few thoughts:

Zacian has little reason to run Close Combat. Its main target is Zamazenta, which Sacred Sword hits harder by virtue of bypassing the +1 boost from its ability. I can't think of anything else apart from maybe Ferrothorn that you'd run it for.

I don't know if Zacian really needs SD. It hits equivalently to a base 280 attacker with no downsides and it resists SR. Behemoth Bash/Play Rough/Sacred Sword and either Crunch (for Aegi, Lunala and Mewtwo) or Psychic Fangs (for Eternatus) seems like a good enough set on its own; SD feels like a luxury, or for when you use it as a lategame sweeper.

As for dealing with it? Say hello to your new friend:

Ditto will be an almost perfect check to Zacian, to the point that you should never send Zacian in if your opponent has Ditto in the back. A Ditto copying Zacian will copy its boost and activate the ability again, meaning that you have a +2 Zacian that also outspeeds literally everything except scarfed Ninjask and is also Improofed -- in other words, it becomes basically impossible to check without losing at least two Pokemon. If you have any SD boosts, god help you. I don't see how Zacian stays in Ubers tbh, given that it outclasses Mega Rayquaza in almost every way.

Zamazenta, ironically, probably wants a hit and run set more than it wants to be a wall because of its awkward movepool. It has double resistance to Stealth Rock and amazing defences, meaning that it can afford to switch in quite a bit and attack back. It seems outclassed by Necrozma-DM in any other role. Why this doesn't get Body Press, I will never know. Its base form can wear a Choice Banded and potentially be annoying to unboosted Mewtwo running Psystrike, maybe? I haven't run the calculations.

Necrozma-DM outspeeds +nature base 140s by a single point after one DD, but gets speed crept by Marshadow by 4 points if it runs Adamant. So it can run a DD set pretty well, but probably wants a Jolly nature. Speed generally seems really important rhis generation, especially in the 125-140 bracket -- I can think of very few Pokemon which won't want to run a speed boosting nature for one reason or another.

Marshadow seems like a potent threat, as ever, and a benchmark which everything else needs to be compared to. Stealing stat boosts is just really good this generation.

Spikes seems better than SR, because there aren't many SR weak Pokemon and exactly zero relevant Flying types or Levitators. SR only really hits Reshiram and Kyurem. There are a lot of good steels in this meta plus Eternatus, so I'm bearish on Toxic Spikes. Then again, Eternatus doesn't have many other obvious choices for its fourth moveslot. Do we have any viable Webs setters?

Everything that needs to be said about Mewtwo already has been. It might have to choose which threats it can't OHKO, but NP is a game changer.

Ground seems like an amazing offensive type this generation and I can imagine sand setters being run just to support Excadrill. Too bad Pursuit is gone as a way for Tyranitar to deal with Mewtwo lacking Aura Sphere or Focus Blast.

Reshiram also has incredible STAB coverage and might be able to run multiple sets competently. I don't think it should be slept on. Timid Scarf/Flame Charge should be good, outspeeding most relevant threats as one of the few good special attackers. It can also use a DD set, setting itself apart from the plethora of other physical attacking threats in Ubers by being immune to burns (a very useful means to check a LOT of relevant threats, on which note, Reshiram is currently one of only two Ubers which learn Will-O-Wisp) and getting a STAB move that hits Zacian super effectively.

Kyurem-B might be worth a look now that it gets a decent movepool, though its defensive typing still hurts.