★ SV UU Suspect Process Round 13 - The Duck Song

[vivalospride]

​

Aloha

Gonna keep this relatively short and sweet as we have media coming out further describing the matter at hand in a more digestible way. But regardless, Quaquaval has been around for the majority of the generation as a threat in the metagame. The community's perception of the duck hasn't been necessarily 100% consistent throughout its time in the tier. It had its ups and its downs, with 2023 UUWC for example being a time of it dominating with its set variety and snowball potential.

Now here in 2025, the foundation of this suspect happening is the same. Set variety and snowball potential with a combination of STAB Aqua Step and Moxie. It isn't difficult to understand why this combination with three moveslots to spare can be extremely overwhelming in the builder and in practice. Now with Weavile's presence in the metagame, Quaquaval has become more splashable than ever, and has a specifically cheesy element over its counterpart Keldeo, albiet with a big sacrifice in speed tier. It has a great dual STAB combination and all the coverage options necessary to theoretically snowball any matchup.

With all this said, the sentiment of Quaquaval being banworthy isn't universal, as it has several great and unique niches. Quaquaval is one of roughly two splashable Rapid Spin options in SV UU, and on top of that is one of the only truly sturdy Weavile checks defensively. Checking Weavile isnt the only thing its got going for it either, due to its typing and movepool it can realistically check Heatran, Scizor, Excadrill, Tyranitar, and other viable pokemon in the metagame to varying extents, and that does hold weight.

Some would also argue that despite Quaquaval's theoretical dominance, it is more theoretical than otherwise. As it cannot often create the perfect moveset to be a perfectly consistent wincon, especially once its coverage/tera is revealed.

Regardless of how you feel, we are beginning a suspect test as of today ya fools, also, hot take but I've always preferred The Duck Song 2 > The Duck Song

----

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING THE NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in UU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played UU before the test, full stop.)
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, Lily, or a member of staff.
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me/Lily or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2900. The deadline for getting requirements will be Sunday, March 9th. GLHF chaps

 

[Tree69420]

a walked up to the lemonade stand and he said to the man running the stand
hey bum bum bum got any

s?
the man said no we just sell lemonade but its cold and its fresh and its all homemade can i get you a glass
the said no ill pass
then he

ed away till the very next day bum bum bum bum bum badum
when the walked up to the lemonade stand and he said to the man running the stand
hey bum bum bum got any

s
the man said no like i said yesterday we just sell lemonade okay why not give it a try
the said goodbye
then he

ed away waddle waddle
then he

ed away waddle waddle
then he

ed away waddle waddle till the very next day bum bum bum bum bum badum
when the walked up to the lemonade stand and he said to the man running the stand
hey bum bum bum got any

s
the man said look this is getting old i mean lemonades all weve ever sold why not give it a go
the said how bout no
then he

ed away waddle waddle
then he

ed away waddle waddle
then he

ed away waddle waddle till the very next day bum bum bum bum bum badum
when the walked up to the lemonade stand and he said to the man running the stand
hey bum bum bum got any

s
the man said look if you dont stay away ill

you to a tree and leave you there all day stuck
so dont get too close
the said adios
then he

ed away waddle waddle
then he

ed away waddle waddle
then he

ed away waddle waddle till the very next day bum bum bum bum bum badum
when the walked up to the lemonade stand and he said to the man running the stand
hey bum bum bum got any

what?
got any

no ohhh
then one more question for you
got any

the man just stopped then he started to smile
he started to laugh then he laughed for a while he said
hey lets walk to the

ill buy you some

so you wont have to ask anymore
they got to the

and the man bought some

he gave one to the and the said hmm no thanks
but you know what sounds good
it would make my day
do you think this

do you think this

do you think this

has any lemonade
bum bum bum bum bum bum
then he

ed away waddle waddle
then he

ed away waddle waddle
then he

ed away waddle waddle

anyways DNB quav

 

[Amuetur]

I thought Quaquaval was like a NUBL mon until I saw this in my Discord notifs. I wanna see all 3 starters in UUBL now

 

[JK]

​

Aloha

Gonna keep this relatively short and sweet as we have media coming out further describing the matter at hand in a more digestible way. But regardless, Quaquaval has been around for the majority of the generation as a threat in the metagame. The community's perception of the duck hasn't been necessarily 100% consistent throughout its time in the tier. It had its ups and its downs, with 2023 UUWC for example being a time of it dominating with its set variety and snowball potential.

Now here in 2025, the foundation of this suspect happening is the same. Set variety and snowball potential with a combination of STAB Aqua Step and Moxie. It isn't difficult to understand why this combination with three moveslots to spare can be extremely overwhelming in the builder and in practice. Now with Weavile's presence in the metagame, Quaquaval has become more splashable than ever, and has a specifically cheesy element over its counterpart Keldeo, albiet with a big sacrifice in speed tier. It has a great dual STAB combination and all the coverage options necessary to theoretically snowball any matchup.

With all this said, the sentiment of Quaquaval being banworthy isn't universal, as it has several great and unique niches. Quaquaval is one of roughly two splashable Rapid Spin options in SV UU, and on top of that is one of the only truly sturdy Weavile checks defensively. Checking Weavile isnt the only thing its got going for it either, due to its typing and movepool it can realistically check Heatran, Scizor, Excadrill, Tyranitar, and other viable pokemon in the metagame to varying extents, and that does hold weight.

Some would also argue that despite Quaquaval's theoretical dominance, it is more theoretical than otherwise. As it cannot often create the perfect moveset to be a perfectly consistent wincon, especially once its coverage/tera is revealed.

Regardless of how you feel, we are beginning a suspect test as of today ya fools, also, hot take but I've always preferred The Duck Song 2 > The Duck Song

----

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING THE NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in UU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played UU before the test, full stop.)
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, Lily, or a member of staff.
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me/Lily or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2900. The deadline for getting requirements will be Sunday, March 9th. GLHF chaps

what's the B- value?

 

[Goombatower69]

Never been a fan of the duck and was protesting it's unbanning. The DLC just upgraded it's Ice coverage and gave it knock off to handle it's previous checks (wheras it had to use tera to do the previously). It has a set for everything in the tier and more, and I'm expecting the rise of tera poison Dirge to attempt to combat it, only for taunt to become the premier set.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I thought Quaquaval was like a NUBL mon until I saw this in my Discord notifs. I wanna see all 3 starters in UUBL now

Dirge and Meow were never overbearing here so quaq beat the fraud allegations i guess

and quaquaval is a matchup fish anyway so nothing is lost with its departure other than a cool defensive spinner, i mean its just too much to deal with. Even the counterplay either just loses to some sets or gets heavily cripped through item loss, this mon is honestly comparable to how volc was in ou with tera where it just became too much of a matchup fish to be healthy

tldr: Matchup duck needs to go

 

[Tree69420]

Dirge and Meow were never overbearing here so quaq beat the fraud allegations i guess

and quaquaval is a matchup fish anyway so nothing is lost with its departure other than a cool defensive spinner, i mean its just too much to deal with. Even the counterplay either just loses to some sets or gets heavily cripped through item loss, this mon is honestly comparable to how volc was in ou with tera where it just became too much of a matchup fish to be healthy

tldr: Matchup duck needs to go

quav is not a matchup fish at all, it is most threatening vs offense and ho but all styles can adequately prep for it without going far out of your way (mons that logically fit on the squad)
even though multiple mons may be needed to cover it, it will rarely go more than 1 for 1 unless you deliberately give it free turns
defensive counterplay: pex, slowking, washtom, apple, def quav, sinis, clod, azu, slowbro, skarm, chesnaught, bold dirge, this is before even getting into tera checks ie tera water thund, torn, rude, tran, etc
offensive counterplay: ogerpon, deos, LOKIX, sanddrill, any scarfer, keld, sciz, any swift swimmer in rain
quav also requires multiple free turns to snowball (needs SD to kill stuff, easily revenged without a step, and even then it is killed by scarfers) and it is incapable of getting these multiple turns if you just hit it
the set variability is also not close to overwhelming (one of taxel knock taunt typically) and you can easily figure out if it is defensive or offensive based on team comp

quav is just not overbearing enough to warrant a ban and i will be voting DNB
sincerely, big stall

 

[bingoshingo]

quaq was already cracked since the beginning, dlc screwing with his moveset so he can have coverage over practically anything means if anyone plays smart and can switch him in a situation where he can get a free aqua step, its practically game over, especially if he runs knock off and triple axel. quaq was just as busted as tea imo, so tea getting quick banned and quaq being suspect tested is frankly hilarious.

ship this duck to prison for all i care just get him out of my ladder matches, im tired of playing rock paper scissors for matchups with this guy.

i'd vote to send him into outer space but ig the closest thing is to vote for Ban.

 

[NDK]

Here is why I believe that Quaquaval should be banned.
Below are some fun SD calcs

Bruh

+2 252+ Atk Quaquaval Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 364-430 (92.3 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Quaquaval Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Rotom-Wash: 298-352 (98 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Quaquaval Triple Axel (60 BP) (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 92 Def Hydrapple: 464-548 (111.5 - 131.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Quaquaval Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quaquaval: 339-399 (90.6 - 106.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Quaquaval Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Sinistcha: 328-386 (94.7 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Clodsire Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 102-121 (32.7 - 38.9%) -- 8.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Quaquaval Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Clodsire: 235-277 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Quaquaval Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Clodsire: 584-690 (126.1 - 149%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Quaquaval Aqua Step vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Unaware Clodsire: 290-344 (62.6 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 258-306 (82.9 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Quaquaval Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Skarmory: 237-280 (70.9 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Quaquaval Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 342-408 (90.2 - 107.6%) -- approx. 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Quaquaval Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 244-288 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Slowbro Psychic Noise vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Quaquaval: 204-242 (65.5 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Quaquaval Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 296-350 (75.1 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Pak Said:
So you may notice why this thing is so fucking stupid in-game. You can never just assume that it isn't the more long-term-punishing Bulk Up set, and the presence of the Choice Band set can essentially turn matches into guessing games. Please don't give me the bs about it only being able to run one of these extra coverage moves. They're all good in their own right and all this shitter really needs is to click Hammer Arm or Knock Off + some half decent support in any matchup. The coverage is icing on the cake.

I believe that Quaquaval is very similar to ORAS UU Conkeldurr. Obviously the two are different, with Conk being a slow, bulky sweeper and Quaquaval being a fast sweeper. However, both force very specific threats that do not fit on every team. For Conkeldurr, it's best answer is Cresselia, and in Quaquaval's case, its best answer is Toxapex. Both of these Pokemon are extremely passive and struggle against Steel-types of the tier. Similar to what Pak is saying here, Quaquaval is also stupid in-game. You cannot assume that it doesn't have Knock off, and the presence of Triple Axel or Taunt turns matches into guessing games. While it can only run one of these moves, guessing incorrectly often leads you to lose the game. Quaquaval is also a fantastic abuser of terastallization, being able to use it to get more free turns, potentially going up to +4 or using it to go to +1 speed with an Aqua Step. All this Pokemon needs is Aqua Step+ Close Combat which lets it potentially sweep teams. The coverage, as is the case with Conkeldurr, is "icing on the cake".
Please please for the love of god get this thing out of SV UU. I hate this Pokemon so much because my team has multiple answers to it in Hydrapple and Skarmory only to lose to Triple Axel into Close Combat. The fact that this Pokemon can muscle past its checks is stupid, as it can beat any team lacking a Toxapex.

 

[Stories]

Quaq is broken af in battle factory UU, so it must be broken

 

[Colin]

https://pokepast.es/aaafb56add64c61e got reqs with this team I cooked bc I was recommended to use deo-s which is free on ladder. apart from a not so mild sd lokix problem its very good and reliable imo

On ladder, quaq isnt broken to me, but in tournament where good players are more likely to force good trades it can be. The duck's expected value isnt nearly as high as some prior banned pokemon such as hoopa, ursaluna, and okidogi but its snowball is in my opinion even more dangerous when it does more than the team fighting quaquaval thinks it can make it do. the burden is not on quaquaval to have the right moveslot, and is instead on the opponent to scout it due to moxie + aqua step. bulky offenses can give it more than 1 big opportunity, although quaq's bulk isnt bad but very limited for this purpose. personally speaking, I think Quaquaval has the most success when played confidently (acting like you have the right coverage for hydrapple, or like you're kitted to trade positively or force tera vs a fat mon) because even if you have the wrong set the threat of a snowball can force tera or give it opportunities to get an SD read or extra damage where its not supposed to be able to. Quaquaval is good and very consistent at trading 1f1 with + 2 close combats, but I don't consider it at all broken for this trait.

Offensive counterplay is okay vs quaquaval, you have really good options in lokix, deo-s, and misc priority, but its not hugely numerous due to scarf users being specific. getting 2 aqua steps can happen, but usually Quaquaval has to get a predict or tera to do it. Quaquaval has really high upside with just pretty good game to game consistency, which resembles the HO teams it anchors that have an insane quantity of threats that are really hard to build around, with none of them the consistent quality to be broken no matter what.

idk what I'll vote, I used to be for sure ban but i'm not sure

 

[babymariofan563]

 

[reachzero]

Just got reqs, ran a Sun team and faced a whole lot of Sand on the way up. Sun team

Quaquaval is one of the hardest UU Pokemon to tier in a while; any given set has clear counters (Slowking if you don't have Knock Off, etc), but the threat of it snowballing on you forces you to play really awkwardly and there are an annoying number of 50-50s on whether Quaquaval will Tera. Interestingly, I think Quaquaval is a very atypical suspect in that it performs worse against balance than against offense, as Skeledirge (with Tera) and Slowking are two of the better answers. One notable issue is that Quaquaval forces a defensive Tera a lot, so it often finds itself something of a focal point when it appears. I think most metagames tend to ban Pokemon that do that Quaquaval does, and its strong showing in tournament play suggests this is pretty appropriate. I do think this one is very close though; if you want to not lose to Quaquaval, there are definitely ways to ensure you don't.

 

[missangelic]

I've been looking forward to this suspect for a while. Ever since getting more into the UU ladder during the Weavile suspect test, I've felt like Quaquaval was one of the most frustrating Pokemon to face on the ladder. There's a variety of factors that contribute to my bias. For example: I almost always use hyper offense when laddering, which is especially vulnerable to letting Quaquaval sweep by its Pokemon-sacking tempo.

Most of Quaquaval's most airtight checks tend to be more defensive Pokemon like Slowking and Toxapex, but I don't think stallish or balance strategies are always the greatest in a metagame that tends to have the needle pushed towards offense thanks to Terastallization. Picks like Toxapex, Chesnaught, and Bellibolt are tough to fit, sometimes momentum drains, and generally not good or common for these reasons.

Offensively, there are still good priority users in the tier that can revenge kill Quaquaval, and it's still slower than most Choice Scarf users and Excadrill in sand. However, Quaquaval's coverage moves can surprise and overwhelm counterplay, which makes playing against it when it's starting to snowball even more dicey for more offensive teams. Colin describes it well above by saying that the burden of Quaquaval's coverage is on the person playing against it. There's this self-reinforcing effect where the metagame is more offensive, Quaquaval thrives against offensive teams, and offensive teams tend to rely on Quaquaval.

If there's anything that makes me want to panic and exhaust Terastallization, and it's usually Quaquaval. Quaquaval with Terastallization itself, as reachzero discusses above, is especially a menace, as it uses the resource much more effectively than anything else in the tier to start snowballing and stop an opponent from acting to stop it. A lot of this pressure makes me feel like Quaquaval is in the genre of Pokemon that are especially enabled by Terastallization even though they're already extremely potent without it.

I can't say the tier is necessarily going to be better off without Quaquaval. Since adding it to my HO teams, I really felt the consistency it can offer against top Pokemon like Heatran, Greninja, Tyranitar, Skeledirge, Scizor, and Weavile. I also think there's some elements that are pretty overwhelming (keep an eye on Zarude and Greninja), so Quaquaval isn't the only issue I really have with the tier. still, I will be voting ban.

 

[bungeegum_420]

I'm mostly in favor of banning it due to reasons people have stted already(set versatility, power, etc.)

The only thing I'd like to add is my reasons for not wanting to preserve it for utility.
I do see its value(checking all of them+ spin, knock, pivoting , recovery) but i don't think any of that is worth having such a dangerous sweeper and breaker. In addition , i don't think some of them need checks and are better off banned for potential brokenness(weavile, gren) and others have multiple checks(tran, ttar, drill, scizor).

 

[kimer]

I think everything that needs to be said about the duck has already been said, so I'll just share the fun team that allowed me to get the reqs

https://pokepast.es/30a8aaac672fa88d

 

[bricknermon]

I don't really have any crazy analysis to add because people have mostly covered everything so far, but in the 35 games it took me to get reqs, I played plenty of quaquavals and didn't have any issues with any of them. My main checks were slowking on one team I used, and volcanion on the other, using water absorb to not allow a speed Boost or tera fairy to wall it. Along with volcanion, I had skarm and deo speed on that team, and a lokix on the slowking team, so I had plenty of checks to the duck on these teams.

That being said, I am leaning to not ban it because of how many options there are defensively, and even offensively (kix and deoxys)
It is definitely one of the best mons in the tier, but I do not feel like it consistently forces tera or restricts team building too much.

However, if I am being naive or ignoring something that makes it broken, feel free to let me know!

https://pokepast.es/90c2c915078b77f9
https://pokepast.es/2fe655a69024e86f
Teams I used

 

[Catcus]

Got Reqs. Here's the Team:





- Deo is just a standard lead, fast enough to set hazards and keep them them off for mons like Cornerpon and Lokix.

- Goro Yagami posted this set in UUcord a few weeks ago (thank you Goro) and I wanted a decent spinblocker. It tanks an excadrill EQ and threatens to sweep afterwards. Weakness Policy Caught a lot of people off guard and led to a surprisingly large number of sweeps.

- I wanted it a bit of speed and Cornerpon is heavily under-prepped for at the moment. Fast Taunt lets you use sturdy more as a revenge killing tool. It also helps to overload Steels like Cobal and Skarm.

- My goat. Ladder barely preps for slither at all and gets owned a ton by the funny bug. It Threatens apple and owns zarude and further helps to overload the steels.

- Our main way to pressure opposing Deo-S and Lati. Aside from that, it's just classic SD Lokix. It's the final steel overloader and just does it's usual antics.

- The duck of the hour. Taunt is our main way of chipping down dirge and other bulky mons.


-----------------------------------------

Rn I'm leaning towards ban. I'll start by saying that I think quaq is less of an unhealthy presence and more a broken one. I think, on paper, quaq offers a ton of nice things to the meta. It's probably the best weav check you could ask for and checks other mons like gren too. UU's often been touted as a tier infested with darks, so having a strong fighting type to keep them on their toes is appreciated. It's also obviously a massive help in making HO more consistent. It's also one of the only spinners in the tier (defensive quaq is underappreciated imo). These are all super cool things to add to a meta.

Unfortunately, Quaq is a little too powerful to me. The Trio of Taunt, Knock Off, and Triple Axel each not only have different checks, but often threaten stuff that would check it with a different set. For example, Apple can usually beat Taunt and Knock Quaq consistent, but loses super hard into Triple Axel. Same Goes for pretty much every defensive answer in the tier besides like, Azu Ig? There's some revenge killers, but most are either niche or need chip to actually kill. Imo, it's too much for one mon to be this threatening. So I'm leaning ban, though I'm open to counterarguments.

 

[ThatOneApple]

I have gotten and reqs and will be voting to ban Quaquaval. This mon has little in terms of reliable counterplay and has made it feel as though it is necessary to stack multiple checks to it to avoid risking it just mowing you down, leading to rough matchups against other threats. As mentioned by Colin above, while it may not be able to fit all of the moves it wants, the burden is not on Quaquaval to have to right move usually, instead the burden is on the person fighting it to scout. For example, if you send Hydrapple in on it as it Swords Dances, you now either have to tera or double out to avoid the risk of Triple Axel. This creates an extreme flexibility issue in both the game and the builder as you pretty much have to dedicate tera to answering Quaquaval in order to have a passable mu into it without just losing to other mons, which can be especially bad if you ever run into a situation where you need to tera something else early.

The Problem with Stacking Defensive Checks and Why Quaquaval Might Not Seem Like Too Much of an Issue at the Time.

This is something I noticed during my reqs attempts and it felt rather similar to what went on during the Hoopa suspect. To put it short, many, MANY teams I ran into stacked a ton of checks to quaq and would often top it off with a Lokix for extra safe measures. I think I ran into teams consisting of two or three of Slowking, Hydrapple, Skeledirge, Toxapex, Clodsire, and Lokix like 7 times during my runs from different people all trying to avoid the duck's wrath. Now, with all these mons stacked together, the duck doesnt seem like an issue. However, as previously stated, this leads to issues in other matchups. As an example, I used HO for my reqs and as stated I noticed just how much teams were turbo prepared for Quaq and made it annoying for it to sweep. So what did I do? Put a different water over it and started smashing right through. Manaphy, Azu, hell even Blastoise can all blast through some of if not most of those combinations of mons. Its not even just HO threats, teams like this have seemed incredibly susceptible to mons like Conkeldurr, Heatran, Taunt Torn, etc., so while Quaquaval might not seem like the biggest problem at the moment, its effect on teambuilding has shown to me to be a very negative pressence.

Speed Control

Everyone's favorite way to deal with HO way back when in Lokix sack ways seems like itd be an alright workaround to the duck. However the term "way back when" is kinda important here as HO has had plenty of time to adapt to it with mons that arent as easily revenged by fimp like SD tect Kix, BU Zarude with Tera, or Revavroom, or just the resurgence of screens stuffing Lokix and forcing it to use up its sacks early and making it far less effective for the most part. In general, while you may be able to pair Lokix with mons that answer the threats it can't handle, you run into issues with needing to sack things to make it effective, and screens as a whole renders Kix rather unreliable to me. Other speed control options arent nearly as reliable unfortunately, with the only other ones I find to be decent Quaq answers being Conk's mach punch and Keld's vacuum wave for priority, though these only work well if Quaquaval has its defense dropped or has Tera'd to a fighting weak type, and in outspeeding +1 duck is only Deo-S and Scarf Gzap, as while they're the least susceptible to getting Tera'd on, they still end up needing to play a 50/50. However, A more unorthodox method of speed control I've seen mentioned is to sack something to it that deters it from clicking Aqua Step and then going to something that outspeeds and revenges it. Unfortunately, if this is your only method, Quaquaval can just tera on the revenge killer to grab the Aqua Step anyways, and likely sweep. So, this method to me ends up just tying back to the Lokix sack wars point as thats the most reliable way of revenging it.

Another thing that I should mention on this topic is that there have been some offensive Quaqs on non HO teams, leveraging these teams' better longevity to sponge hits from potential revenge killers. Its rather rare but still something that has seen use and should be considered. However the more important thing I wanted to mention is the issue of needing to revenge kill a mon. Revenging implies that the mon you are revenging had picked up a kill previously and is thus, at worst, trading. This means that for the most part, Quaq is at worst trading, and at best... well... I think we all know what its best is.

(As a side not before anyone mentions Sand Drill, this requires sand to be up, and considering ttar hasn't been running Smooth Rock, you very well might just end up sacking it to Duck to have Drill revenge, so the point still stands)

In Conclusion

This mon is a very bad presence in the tier and needs to go. Reliably answering it always requires large concessions either in the builder or the battle, with the teams that seem to reliably answer it being very susceptible to being rolled through by other threats, and the teams that aim to answer it offensively either running into the same issue, and/or flopping if screens go up. Tera also makes it so that sacking to this thing to prevent a step without a Kix can be catastrophic. I've generally seen very little reason to keep it in the tier as the only thing it provides to the tier is a check to weavile that generates offense, which while nice, is also done by Keldeo, who does it without the insane volatility. There are no grapes at this lemonade stand, ban the duck.

 

[BigFatMantis]

Just got reqs, will post team later, both sides present good points, unsure how to vote atm but looking forward to the result

 

[reachzero]

I think the most significant elements of the case against Quaquaval are that it is a terrible metagame influence. The Pokemon that are the most reliable and consistent answers, (Tera Fairy/Water/Poison) Skeledirge, Toxapex, and Slowking (especially Colbur Slowking) are mostly passive, predictable and limited to play on balance or bulky offense. Building HO that works around these answers is not even especially difficult. Offensive counterplay against Quaquaval is largely based on revenge killing, for instance, by Ogerpon or Iron Jugulis, which largely depends on Quaquaval not using Tera to actually work. The reality there is that most people do not actually cover Quaquaval in the teambuilder, they half-cover it and hope that the opponent will not bring the version (Knock Off vs Triple Axel, Leftovers vs Lum, Tera type) that will beat them, and then hope that the Quaquaval user doesn't have something that exploits the living daylights out of their Quaquaval counter, often Zarude or Cornerpon. I agree with ThatOneApple that the answers to Quaquaval--barring Tera'd Skeledirge, which is amazing but Tera is not free--leave the user incredibly vulnerable to exploitation.

As a final note, I am curious to see that impact a Quaquaval ban would actually have, especially on HO. It would be a serious blow for HO not only because of the duck being individually good but because of what a good, ready made answer it is for Weavile, a Pokemon HO can have some trouble with. Without Quaquaval around, Weavile actually feels a lot better to use (perhaps Keldeo steps up again?).

 

[sparrow]

Posting my reqs squad. I hadn't used SD Taunt Qua until recently; on HO I think it's easily a set worth considering. Taunt beats some of the above mentioned "answers" such as Toxapex and Skeledirge, with hazard supports and forcing switches (regen heals) whilst blocking healing moves through Taunt it can really limit bulky counter play. I was on the fence about my vote; Taunt Qua has convinced me that it's almost impossible to be prepared for all of its sets. I will be voting ban.

I think the tier will be fine with its departure, Dark Spam is in a really strong place, but usage stats are suggesting Lokx and Weav shifts.

breakdown

Standard lead deo, I've not tried psycho boost, but I can see the merit. Having Superpower for an emergency into opposing Dark-type mons is always nice. For instance chip on early Lokix goes a long way vs opposing offence.

Taunt Spam prevents opposing defog, heals and hazard going up. Having a super fast Taunt from Iron-Jugulis screws over the lead deo mirror. Given the focus is HO you don't miss work-up or the coverage too much as you're always forcing progress through coverage or Taunt.

Qua w/ Taunt is a solid mon to bring into Mandi knocking out deo and hoping to sneak in Defog once Taunt wears off. I also enjoy that is shuts down fat with little to no effort. Keep the Taunt momentum, Lum to dodge status in case you've terra'd on another 'mon. Terra Steel to find set-up opportunities.

Standard SD Lokx is a great late game cleaner and synergises well alongside Gren. With Taunt spam, offensive cross over of Dark spam either can function as a great late game wincon.

Given it's almost impossible for opposing hazards to go up vs this team. Ogerpon almost has permanent Sturdy letting function as a great emergency check vs a lot of set-ups mons. Due to this, you can find opportunities to set-up SD often. Superpower pressures defensive Steel-types providing openings for Lokx.

replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2312773517-7wff65in6od4xkewwoxxk96ichj4a2qpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2312933228-nhrkp4k08onuno008bo5mtywxgd9a0xpw

Edit: posting to update the team went undefeated in Joey’s latest vid for reqs. Glad you liked the team aim

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Posting my reqs squad. I hadn't used SD Taunt Qua until recently; on HO I think it's easily a set worth considering. Taunt beats some of the above mentioned "answers" such as Toxapex and Skeledirge, with hazard supports and forcing switches (regen heals) whilst blocking healing moves through Taunt it can really limit bulky counter play. I was on the fence about my vote; Taunt Qua has convinced me that it's almost impossible to be prepared for all of its sets. I will be voting ban.

I think the tier will be fine with its departure, Dark Spam is in a really strong place, but usage stats are suggesting Lokx and Weav shifts.

breakdown

Standard lead deo, I've not tried psycho boost, but I can see the merit. Having Superpower for an emergency into opposing Dark-type mons is always nice. For instance chip on early Lokix goes a long way vs opposing offence.

Taunt Spam prevents opposing defog, heals and hazard going up. Having a super fast Taunt from Iron-Jugulis screws over the lead deo mirror. Given the focus is HO you don't miss work-up or the coverage too much as you're always forcing progress through coverage or Taunt.

Qua w/ Taunt is a solid mon to bring into Mandi knocking out deo and hoping to sneak in Defog once Taunt wears off. I also enjoy that is shuts down fat with little to no effort. Keep the Taunt momentum, Lum to dodge status in case you've terra'd on another 'mon. Terra Steel to find set-up opportunities.

Standard SD Lokx is a great late game cleaner and synergises well alongside Gren. With Taunt spam, offensive cross over of Dark spam either can function as a great late game wincon.

Given it's almost impossible for opposing hazards to go up vs this team. Ogerpon almost has permanent Sturdy letting function as a great emergency check vs a lot of set-ups mons. Due to this, you can find opportunities to set-up SD often. Superpower pressures defensive Steel-types providing openings for Lokx.

replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2312773517-7wff65in6od4xkewwoxxk96ichj4a2qpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2312933228-nhrkp4k08onuno008bo5mtywxgd9a0xpw

Kinda crazy to think weav is an OU mon essentially down in UU and while it is really strong it is debatably not broken. Wack times we live in

 

[Finchinator]

Kinda crazy to think weav is an OU mon essentially down in UU and while it is really strong it is debatably not broken. Wack times we live in

This happens a fair amount honestly. There would be a large handful of OU Pokemon that would be fine coexisting in UU if they fell short of OU usage, UU Pokemon that could do the same in RU, etc. — it requires certain characteristics to be broken offensively in terms of strength or coverage that a lot of things simply lack.

—

Pivoting to the topic of the thread though: I’m conflicted on Duck. It can snowball pretty easily if it has the right coverage — SD Knock into Slowking or timely Axel for WA Clod/Dragons/Grasses go a long way, but being on the wrong side of that equation can be a limiting factor or make you way more Tera reliant for extra turns.

I used Duck for reqs and it felt broken to me in those games because it swept a lot of underprepared teams and didn’t often even need Tera to do it. However, that felt more like the ladder being pretty mid and people not knowing how to respond to stacked boosts. It does feel like the average ladder player is capable of responding at the surface level to things, but as soon as other variables like both stats being raised with Moxie+Aqua Step, they end up struggling.

On the flip side, I don’t personally feel super overwhelmed by facing it myself or when building, which I admit I am still newer to. I do think offense/HO is strapped to trade with it and cannot give it openings and BO may be in a similar boat, but I think bulkier teams can afford multiple checks to it and can limit it outright (maybe to 1 KO or a Tera trade, but nothing outrageous anyway). I guess Reach’s point about some counterplay being passive resonates with me, but aside from Pex most things can fit onto BO at least. Sometimes you need to Tera a Skeledirge for it and I find that annoying, but honestly not super gamebreaking? Hard to say.

I lean towards ban because it requires resource across multiple slots unless you’re using Grasspon offense with Pokemon that don’t get OHKO’d or Pex on a bulkier team, but I don’t think it makes the tier unplayable and I don’t think the outcome will be a blowout. Could change my mind the more I keep learning the metagame and finding new counterplay within normal cores maybe.

 

[BillyNelson]

Quaquaval needs to go