The goatest UUbers player to ever cook…
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Metagame SV Ubers UU Metagame Discussion (Spectrier Ban @ Post 702)
- Thread starter KineSquared
- Start date
Forgot about that lol
With my UUFPL coming to close, I was asked to team dump my legal teams here. Huge shoutouts to Fc and Taka for helping every week.
https://pokepast.es/520c47bd790e07c5 - Wisp Darkceus, very weak to Landorus without a ground immunity, but it's outplayable
https://pokepast.es/03977a8b90e6f630 - Alo + Zama-C, probably my favorite team of the tour, small issue with Poisonceus and Tspikes, but nothing unmananagable
https://pokepast.es/e4868c2ebe6de6e1 - Palafin Pivot Spam, not great without hazard control nice if you can get the vortex going without hazards going up. Eleki > NDW could be an option for those who would like to try it.
https://pokepast.es/40aaf953abb4268e - Ditto Anti-Offense, this was the worst team I brought this tour to cteam offense. Use at your own risk.
I will write up a longer metagame discussion post later because I really love this tier and I think a lot of cool ideas are underexplored. I look forward to seeing everyone in Seasonal and future tours!
Imperial
https://pokepast.es/520c47bd790e07c5 - Wisp Darkceus, very weak to Landorus without a ground immunity, but it's outplayable
https://pokepast.es/03977a8b90e6f630 - Alo + Zama-C, probably my favorite team of the tour, small issue with Poisonceus and Tspikes, but nothing unmananagable
https://pokepast.es/e4868c2ebe6de6e1 - Palafin Pivot Spam, not great without hazard control nice if you can get the vortex going without hazards going up. Eleki > NDW could be an option for those who would like to try it.
https://pokepast.es/40aaf953abb4268e - Ditto Anti-Offense, this was the worst team I brought this tour to cteam offense. Use at your own risk.
I will write up a longer metagame discussion post later because I really love this tier and I think a lot of cool ideas are underexplored. I look forward to seeing everyone in Seasonal and future tours!
Imperial
with uufpl coming to a close, i thought i'd dump my teams here (and they'll probably be arriving on samples soon after). HUGE shoutouts to both vesp and Frito , there was no chance i'd have done nearly as well as i did without you two, huge help in the prep & builder departments. not dumping any teams that wasn't built by me though.
w1 is a non legal team and so was w3, so i'll be skipping to week four
https://pokepast.es/6e638854f826a0f7 - ditto stall
my advice is dont use this. its definitely incomplete and i think stall atm is not at all good, you have zero checks to alot of the metagame, but it worked for this week and i think thats what matters.
https://pokepast.es/43ca5ca219dfc39b - dd ndw + scarf tusk
easily my favourite team of the tour, though a shame i never got to reveal dd in this matchup. scarf tusk is actually my goat, its scarce hazard removal and a solid scarfer able to punish key threats this team hated, notable arc-dark, and was my first venture into what is now the scariest pokemon in the tier imo, koff m2.
https://pokepast.es/f7f89ea226b5df2c - Band Zacian Tspikes
great team, easy enough to pilot. really dislikes playing against hazards and is super reliant on lando for grounds, but otherwise a perfectly fine team to use, originally tried banded pult in slot, but double ghost felt like it gave pao the free win.
w7, semi's & finals arent any of mine, so no link s here. these teams were great though, and huge shoutouts to vesp for supplying me w/ it these
probably gonna do a longer metagame post about how mewtwo is the greatest pokemon ever made, but for now this should be it. huge shoutout to my managers this uufpl for giving me such a free reign and allowing me to mess around with dumb shit (who let me bring ditto stall), and my team for being around to test whenever i needed it.
w1 is a non legal team and so was w3, so i'll be skipping to week four
https://pokepast.es/6e638854f826a0f7 - ditto stall
my advice is dont use this. its definitely incomplete and i think stall atm is not at all good, you have zero checks to alot of the metagame, but it worked for this week and i think thats what matters.
https://pokepast.es/43ca5ca219dfc39b - dd ndw + scarf tusk
easily my favourite team of the tour, though a shame i never got to reveal dd in this matchup. scarf tusk is actually my goat, its scarce hazard removal and a solid scarfer able to punish key threats this team hated, notable arc-dark, and was my first venture into what is now the scariest pokemon in the tier imo, koff m2.
https://pokepast.es/f7f89ea226b5df2c - Band Zacian Tspikes
great team, easy enough to pilot. really dislikes playing against hazards and is super reliant on lando for grounds, but otherwise a perfectly fine team to use, originally tried banded pult in slot, but double ghost felt like it gave pao the free win.
w7, semi's & finals arent any of mine, so no link s here. these teams were great though, and huge shoutouts to vesp for supplying me w/ it these
probably gonna do a longer metagame post about how mewtwo is the greatest pokemon ever made, but for now this should be it. huge shoutout to my managers this uufpl for giving me such a free reign and allowing me to mess around with dumb shit (who let me bring ditto stall), and my team for being around to test whenever i needed it.
With the releasing of the April survey results, I'd like to address all the items that received a vote of 5.0 or higher from either general or qualified playerbase.
(I'm also gonna be truncating survey numbers after the tenth's place)
1. Necrozma Dawn-Wings
NDW received an average of 5.2 from the general playerbase, and 4.2 from the qualified playerbase. NDW has the capability to run a fantastic support set with options such as Stealth Rock, Knock Off, and Moonlight, while also having powerful stabs to avoid being passive. NDW can also function as one of the better switch-ins to Mewtwo, although Mewtwo can still customize its coverage to deal with NDW. After playing with it for a while now, I've really appreciated the unique support role NDW fills on some teams.
The more polarizing set is the Calm Mind sweeper set. NDW's fantastic bulk and access to reliable recovery allows it to break past unprepared teams. Even Arceus-Dark which walls NDW's STABs, collapses to a boosted Tera Blast Fairy. However, I still think that even this NDW set isn't all that broken. An option many have been using to counter CM NDW has been Terapagos. Terapagos has the unique trait of being able to always force out NDW once per game (if not twice), alongside a slew of other useful utility options. Even if Terapagos can't reliably force out NDW more than once per game (although it can comfortably do so twice given that you don't let it get too chipped), that one guaranteed opportunity to halt a sweep can be all that you need. A further list of checks to CM NDW that I enjoy using are: Chien-Pao, Arceus-Poison (sludge bomb for post tera), and Urshifu (a good alternative to cpao on faster pace offense teams imo).
2. Chien-Pao
Pao received an average of 5.8 from the general playerbase, and 5.4 from the qualified playerbase. Pao is one of if not the best breakers in the tier, and nobody on council disputes its power. Pao's existence has forced a very centralizing meta, where physically defensive Magearna is mandatory on almost every team. I won't speak for others on council, but I personally have disliked the effect Pao has had on the meta, and would be happy to see it go. However, there are two main issues: lack of community support (as reflected in the survey), and the larger issue that Pao was already suspected not that long ago. It would go against Smogon policy to re-test a Pokemon so soon after it was already tested. And when it comes to the survey results, In addition to lacking the amount needed to suspect a Pokemon in normal circumstances, we definitely do not have enough community support to make an exception to standard tiering conventions. What I will say about Pao is to use Magearna, and do everything to preserve your Magearna if the opponent has a Pao. Heavy-Duty Boots Magearna in particular has been rising in popularity so that Magearna doesn't get worn down by an opposing Magearna's Spikes. Chien-Pao is no doubt a polarizing force in the meta, but due to the afformentioned circumstances tiering action won't be taken on it.
3. Arceus-Flying
Arc-Flying received an average of 5.0 from the general playerbase and 4.6 from the qualified playerbase. I do not think Arc-Flying should be unbanned. I did vote to unban it in the previous unban wave, but I've since reflected more on it and have realized I should've listened to others when they said it would be absolutely broken. Calm Mind Arceus has been one of the strongest forces in the tier since the tier's inception, and Arceus-Flying would be arguably the strongest user of the set - to a broken extent. To understand Arc-Flying, we need to take a look at the other Calm Mind Arceus sets in the tier - Arc-Dark and Arc-Grass. When it comes to dealing with CM Arc-Dark, you can pretty reliably check it by pivoting to either Zacian, or Magearna and then Zacian. In this case, Zacian is an important way of dealing with Arc-Dark, as Zacian resists Judgement and threatens Arc-Dark back with Play Rough. CM Arc-Grass is a little scarrier, as it typically drops Taunt for coverage in Earth Power, limiting the number of things that can check it. Giratina can switch in once or twice across the course of a game, and phaze out Arc-Grass, but otherwise counterplay is limited to keeping it from getting in and setting up by using powerful breakers of your own. And of course, hazards are a crucial way of dealing with any Arceus form as they can't hold Heavy-Duty Boots. Arc-Flying is absurd because it has the capacity of getting around every mentioned way of dealing with CM Arc; Zacian can't deal with Arc-Flying the way it does with Arc-Dark unless you begin to run Wild Charge or an unoptimal Tera Blast type; Giratina doesn't resist the extremely spammable STAB, Plate boosted Judgement and would have difficulty phazing out Arc-Flying; It's completely immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes which can be extremely crucial to dealing with Arceus. Lastly, the argument that Stealth Rock keeps Arc-Flying in check does not work in reality. We saw with Arc-Fire that being rocks weak doesn't necessarily hinder a pokemon, as its incredible bulk and access to Recover oftentimes allowed it to do what it did even in spite of its rock weakness. I also think that Arc-Flying would be a prime abuser of Tera to escape its weaknesses and sweep opposing teams. When it comes to speed control that can deal with CM Arceus, we have Zacian, Chien-Pao, and Mewtwo, and Tera Steel would allow Arceus-Flying to resist Play Rough (or become neutral to a weak Wild Charge), Icicle Crash, and Psystrike. I believe that Arc-Flying would place incredible strain on players both in battle and in the builder, and that it would be far too much for the tier to handle.
4. Necrozma Dawn-Wings... again?
When it comes to agreement with the council's decision to unban NDW, there has been enough disagreement that I thought I should cover that portion of the survey. The decision to unban NDW received an average of of 6.3 from the general playerbase, and a 7.8 from the qualified playerbase. When April came, there were a variety of factors that contributed to the council's decision to unban NDW, a lot of which relating to the counterplay for NDW mentioned earlier. Two of the biggest factors were Terapagos and Lunala dropping. With Terapagos, players would have a hard counter to CM NDW, and Lunala was expected to perform almost strictly better than NDW creating competition for the same role. Furthermore, Chien-Pao had dropped the month before, and was capable of threatening a OHKO. Looking back, I recognize that I should've put more thought into my votes for the unbanwave, but I stand by my vote to unban NDW, and I think that It has settled into a healthy position in our meta.
(I'm also gonna be truncating survey numbers after the tenth's place)
1. Necrozma Dawn-Wings
NDW received an average of 5.2 from the general playerbase, and 4.2 from the qualified playerbase. NDW has the capability to run a fantastic support set with options such as Stealth Rock, Knock Off, and Moonlight, while also having powerful stabs to avoid being passive. NDW can also function as one of the better switch-ins to Mewtwo, although Mewtwo can still customize its coverage to deal with NDW. After playing with it for a while now, I've really appreciated the unique support role NDW fills on some teams.
The more polarizing set is the Calm Mind sweeper set. NDW's fantastic bulk and access to reliable recovery allows it to break past unprepared teams. Even Arceus-Dark which walls NDW's STABs, collapses to a boosted Tera Blast Fairy. However, I still think that even this NDW set isn't all that broken. An option many have been using to counter CM NDW has been Terapagos. Terapagos has the unique trait of being able to always force out NDW once per game (if not twice), alongside a slew of other useful utility options. Even if Terapagos can't reliably force out NDW more than once per game (although it can comfortably do so twice given that you don't let it get too chipped), that one guaranteed opportunity to halt a sweep can be all that you need. A further list of checks to CM NDW that I enjoy using are: Chien-Pao, Arceus-Poison (sludge bomb for post tera), and Urshifu (a good alternative to cpao on faster pace offense teams imo).
2. Chien-Pao
Pao received an average of 5.8 from the general playerbase, and 5.4 from the qualified playerbase. Pao is one of if not the best breakers in the tier, and nobody on council disputes its power. Pao's existence has forced a very centralizing meta, where physically defensive Magearna is mandatory on almost every team. I won't speak for others on council, but I personally have disliked the effect Pao has had on the meta, and would be happy to see it go. However, there are two main issues: lack of community support (as reflected in the survey), and the larger issue that Pao was already suspected not that long ago. It would go against Smogon policy to re-test a Pokemon so soon after it was already tested. And when it comes to the survey results, In addition to lacking the amount needed to suspect a Pokemon in normal circumstances, we definitely do not have enough community support to make an exception to standard tiering conventions. What I will say about Pao is to use Magearna, and do everything to preserve your Magearna if the opponent has a Pao. Heavy-Duty Boots Magearna in particular has been rising in popularity so that Magearna doesn't get worn down by an opposing Magearna's Spikes. Chien-Pao is no doubt a polarizing force in the meta, but due to the afformentioned circumstances tiering action won't be taken on it.
3. Arceus-Flying
Arc-Flying received an average of 5.0 from the general playerbase and 4.6 from the qualified playerbase. I do not think Arc-Flying should be unbanned. I did vote to unban it in the previous unban wave, but I've since reflected more on it and have realized I should've listened to others when they said it would be absolutely broken. Calm Mind Arceus has been one of the strongest forces in the tier since the tier's inception, and Arceus-Flying would be arguably the strongest user of the set - to a broken extent. To understand Arc-Flying, we need to take a look at the other Calm Mind Arceus sets in the tier - Arc-Dark and Arc-Grass. When it comes to dealing with CM Arc-Dark, you can pretty reliably check it by pivoting to either Zacian, or Magearna and then Zacian. In this case, Zacian is an important way of dealing with Arc-Dark, as Zacian resists Judgement and threatens Arc-Dark back with Play Rough. CM Arc-Grass is a little scarrier, as it typically drops Taunt for coverage in Earth Power, limiting the number of things that can check it. Giratina can switch in once or twice across the course of a game, and phaze out Arc-Grass, but otherwise counterplay is limited to keeping it from getting in and setting up by using powerful breakers of your own. And of course, hazards are a crucial way of dealing with any Arceus form as they can't hold Heavy-Duty Boots. Arc-Flying is absurd because it has the capacity of getting around every mentioned way of dealing with CM Arc; Zacian can't deal with Arc-Flying the way it does with Arc-Dark unless you begin to run Wild Charge or an unoptimal Tera Blast type; Giratina doesn't resist the extremely spammable STAB, Plate boosted Judgement and would have difficulty phazing out Arc-Flying; It's completely immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes which can be extremely crucial to dealing with Arceus. Lastly, the argument that Stealth Rock keeps Arc-Flying in check does not work in reality. We saw with Arc-Fire that being rocks weak doesn't necessarily hinder a pokemon, as its incredible bulk and access to Recover oftentimes allowed it to do what it did even in spite of its rock weakness. I also think that Arc-Flying would be a prime abuser of Tera to escape its weaknesses and sweep opposing teams. When it comes to speed control that can deal with CM Arceus, we have Zacian, Chien-Pao, and Mewtwo, and Tera Steel would allow Arceus-Flying to resist Play Rough (or become neutral to a weak Wild Charge), Icicle Crash, and Psystrike. I believe that Arc-Flying would place incredible strain on players both in battle and in the builder, and that it would be far too much for the tier to handle.
4. Necrozma Dawn-Wings... again?
When it comes to agreement with the council's decision to unban NDW, there has been enough disagreement that I thought I should cover that portion of the survey. The decision to unban NDW received an average of of 6.3 from the general playerbase, and a 7.8 from the qualified playerbase. When April came, there were a variety of factors that contributed to the council's decision to unban NDW, a lot of which relating to the counterplay for NDW mentioned earlier. Two of the biggest factors were Terapagos and Lunala dropping. With Terapagos, players would have a hard counter to CM NDW, and Lunala was expected to perform almost strictly better than NDW creating competition for the same role. Furthermore, Chien-Pao had dropped the month before, and was capable of threatening a OHKO. Looking back, I recognize that I should've put more thought into my votes for the unbanwave, but I stand by my vote to unban NDW, and I think that It has settled into a healthy position in our meta.
Chien-Pao has been seen as a problematic force in the tier for a long while. I am making this post to explain why I think Pao is fair, actually.
One of the first arguments you hear about pao is how it "pushes mons out of the metagame". This is true, but it hasn't pushed very many out of the metagame. Pao's main impact on the tier is that it makes Magearna near necessary in the builder, which in turn, leads to Pokemon like Solgaleo leaving the metagame. Solg and Mag serve the same purpose, a bulky steel-type pivot, which makes stacking the two unappealing. This is a damn shame, I love Solgaleo structures(I do mean love, Solg was on almost all of my Feb teams), but it's not a huge metagame change. Solgaleo and Magearna checked the same stuff for the most part and not many mons have gotten directly better thanks to Solg leaving the metagame. Outside of Solg, Pao has also pushed Kyurem-W out of the A-tier on the VR, but many would quickly tell you Kyurem-W hadn't been a true A-tier quite a long time before Pao dropped. Kyurem-W is still a fantastic mon as well, with Specs Kyurem-W famously killing the entire tier in two hits, with zero exceptions except for the blobs. Kyurem-W is still very much a real mon. Most dark types have only gotten better over the past few months. Urshifu-Single is seeing more use than it ever has, Mandibuzz is a real mon again, not much changed for the goldfish, and Arc-Dark is still amazing. This is despite most of them having competition with pao as dark type breakers.
Another common argument is that Pao overcentralizes the tier. This is both not much an issue(as we are an Ubers based tier at the end of the day) and not super true. Magearna is made mandatory yes, but that's barely a restriction, Mag has never been worse than a top Five mon in the metagame. Lando-Mag-Arc, a structure that has come to dominate the tier only has one member that's directly affected by pao. You'd want an Arc forme anyways, Arc has good stats in all the stats, a fantastic movepool, and can be quite a few different typings. Landorus-T is a pretty decent Magearna answer yes, but that is not why it sees so much use. The truth of the matter is just that Lando much like arc has a very very attractive set of traits. Rocks, U-Turn, the ground typing, a ground immunity, that is why Lando is used. The ground immunity is an especially important point to touch on, since the tier has only a handful of ground resists, Landorus being immune to to ground is yet another reason to slot it onto every fucking team you build. I bring this up because I think it's a good example of Pao not having as much influence as some people feel it does. Outside of forcing Magearna, Pao is not very restrictive in the builder.
Pao helps balance the tier, checking a variety of mons, most prominently Mewtwo and Necrozma-DW, and helping to balance the tier. Without Pao, Mewtwo would only have Choice Scarfers and Deoxys as revenge killers(Zac and Eleki cannot ohko it, so they have been discounted). NDW would probably not be impacted very much, as Pao isn't switching in anyways, but Pao is still a very strong revenge killer, and can swap in for emergencies. Pao checks quite a few CM arcs, often forcing Grass and Dark to switch out or tera. Pao checks a ton of top tiers and helps to ensure the metagame's integrity.
Pao is super frail and hard to get on the field. Even with VoltTurn support it has a difficult time touching down on the field. Tons of Defensive mons shit on it even if it gets a safe switch, bulky Arcs, Giratina, and even Solgaleo can all live Pao's hits from full and threaten to either cripple it or outright KO it. Pao usually needs plenty of chip to force progress against the defensive stalwarts of the tier. Almost every mon in the tier can one or two hit it, and many of those who can't still learn crippling status like Thunder Wave or Will-o-Wisp. Even when Pao does grace the field, Magearna comes in and shuts it down.
+2 252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Giratina: 446-528 (88.6 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Giratina: 314-372 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 84 Def Arceus-Poison: 350-412 (79 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 84 Def Arceus-Poison: 196-232 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Solgaleo: 308-366 (64.5 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Giratina: 314-372 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 84 Def Arceus-Poison: 350-412 (79 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 84 Def Arceus-Poison: 196-232 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Solgaleo: 308-366 (64.5 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Pao has a serious item problem to wrap it all up. Running Boots SD means you don't have nearly as much immediate power for example, you can't 2hko Arceus Formes without a boost. Running Choice Band gets you a ton of immediate power, but limits Chien-pao's entry points greatly. Being Rock weak in such a hazard focused tier is really bad and often limits pao to only a couple entrances.
I think there is a subset of mons that have significantly gotten worse thanks to Pao.
Baxcalibur, Ogerpon-Hearthflame, Spectrier, Palkia-Origin, and I'd argue even Palafin and Life Orb Landorus-I all have significantly dropped in viability and usage due to Pao. And while Pao wasn't the only reason why they dropped, it is still a significant part of why it happened for a lot of these. These are all different Wallbreakers and/or sweepers with a lot of different attributes and individual issues, but the biggest problem they all have is Pao. They are all too slow and too frail to be effective as they often get revenged super easily by Pao itself, even if they get a speed boost with things like Trailblaze and/or Scale shot. They all share a lot of traits with Pao (such as the weakness to Hazards, ability to break stall, unique resistances/immunities) but Pao is strictly stronger and faster without many drawbacks.
Don't get me wrong, they can be incredibly effective since a lot of teams are not prepared for these (Due to having to overprepare for Pao), which still gives them some place in the tier, but these places are few and far between for it to actually matter. Most of the teams which run these mons have to commit to a specific strategy to cover for their weakness (like Webs), or just give up on trying to run these pokemon in optimal play. It is kind of ironic but the dark types are the least affected by Pao.
I also think that you failed to mention multiple arguments on why many consider Pao to not be okay. Starting on with the fact that it enables other offensive threats really well. Yeah, it is true that Pao can't KO a giratina from full, but that Giratina is practically dead meaning that you can very easily sweep with a SD Arceus in the back. Plus, its not like Giratina can really swap into Pao regardless. Some of these calcs you showed do show how that they survive from full, but this means that any sort of cheap damage will end up with Pao forcing a kill. Your calculations also did not show banded Tera Dark Crunch, which deals a ridiculous amount of damage. It doesn't one shot Giratina (since Tina is built different), but it means that Giratina can never take any attacks or otherwise Pao comes in and its forced to either Tera or switch out.
Another reason I believe that Pao is just not a healthy presence is because the secondary effects of its attacks. A lot of games have been lost because it gets a crucial flinch or a defense drop. It rewards a lot of 'bad' plays like staying in against a Magearna because oftentimes that 27% chance is just gamewinning. If Pao gets a defense drop with tera dark crunch, it has a chance to OHKO Magearna after spikes and stealth rock. It forces really awkward plays when your Magearna suddenly is defense dropped and your reliable counter suddenly doesn't work anymore. It has made a lot of people start running Boots Magearna because it is extremely hard to keep Mag healthy throughout a game when every team has spikes since every team has Magearna.
I heavily disagree that Pao helps balance. While it does help significantly against Mewtwo, it does not solve the issue that it causes and its one wrong prediction from just dying if it tries to swap in. Mewtwo is its own separate case which I have personally heavily been disliking recently but that is a separate topic. As you yourself mentioned, it doesn't really help against NDW. It doesn't really solve the issues with Arceus forms since it can't come into them reliably, needs Band to threaten an OHKO, and can get hard stopped by will-o-wisp (which any Arceus can run) alongside defensive investment. It does not 'counter' anything, it just hits really hard and wallbreaks really effectively. You don't really need many offensive pokemon in your team when Pao covers most of the areas of offensive pokemon.
Bringing Pao into the game is not as hard as you make it sound. You said it yourself: you are forced to run two pivot Mons in Landorus-T and Magearna regardless, which means bringing Pao into the game is a simple thing. Alongside the fact that these pivot moves will bring pokemon into range of getting KO'd by Pao since it really only needs like 8% of damage. Also, saying Pao is rock weak is not a good argument in my opinion, as it is the target of Tera dark a lot of the time, greatly improving its hazard weakness.
Is Chien-Pao truly broken like Zekrom? I don't think so. However, I do not think its presence is healthy for the metagame as a whole. I do agree that its impact in teambuilder is not as hard outside of the fact that it pushes a lot of pokemon out of the metagame (since it doesn't change how you build teams), but it still has a crushing effect in actual matches. I think that a metagame without Pao would have more variety, and be more fun to play, but that is just my own personal opinion.
Ok I think both posts have issues that I want to address
When it comes to the topic of Chien-Pao pushing pokemon out of the tier, I side with Vesp. The only example of Pao pushing a high tier out of viability is Solgaleo (;w;), with the examples Leo suggested not being very valid imo. Baxcalibur has never been viable; Hearthpon is still very strong, just has a high skill ceiling; Palkia-O has been dying since we got Solgaleo (and then i think Vesp figured out CM arc checked it anyways); Palafin is still great and in fact has gotten better imo as a way of checking Pao.
My issues when it comes to Pao are mainly the gameplay loops and dynamics it creates once it gets on the field.
Choice Banded Tera Dark Crunch is one of the moves of all time, dealing roughly 32% to physdef mag. Magearna is always a reliable switch into Pao, except Leftovers sets get ruined by Spikes, and Boots sets are held back by Fairy resists asw as Rocky Helmet. This creates for a dynamic where Pao can get brought in multiple times over the course of a game and whittle Magearna down to the point that it gets KOed by Crunch. And this is without considering Crunch's 20% chance to defense drop. Magearna takes a staggering amount of damage from Pao at -1 defense, which can significantly mess with Magearna's longevity.
When it comes to Pao's hazard weakness, it's not nearly as damning as some make it out to be imo. For one, Pao loses its weakness to rocks if it Tera Darks (which I have found to be a game-winning decision in many instances). Pao also threatens to OHKO one of the best rockers in the tier - Landorus. Stealth Rock Arceus is real and valid, but it's definitely not the most commonly seen set as you'd rather run another set in most cases.
Another reason I dislike Pao's presence in the tier is how it can even get around offensive counterplay. Having both Sucker Punch and Ice Shard are invaluable in dealing with the scarfed and naturally faster pokemon that would check Pao. On Choice Band sets, Pao can't use priority to avoid being revenge killed, but it still can easily come in on something faster than it and still scare it out with a Choice Band Tera Dark Sucker Punch. Even Palafin gets forced out by Pao coming in, because of Sucker Punch. Zacian is the one of the few offensive pokemon that Pao cannot deal with, however Zacian isn't that strong power-wise, and cannot afford to Tera to break past pokemon such as Magearna, lest it lose its resistance to Sucker Punch or gain a weakness to Ice Shard in the case of Tera Ground.
As for Pao checking Mewtwo, M2 is a seperate topic that I wanna discuss in another post but for now I'll say I think M2 is crazy even with Pao in the tier but again that's a seperate post.
When it comes to dealing with Arceus, particularly Arceus-Dark, Pao definitely has it rougher and gets forced out which is a point I concede. However I do want to point out that Giratina and Solgaleo (which doesn't even see that much usage nowadays) function as blanket checks for a lot of pokemon in the tier, and won't always be at max health. Early in the game, they can come in to force out Pao but beginning mid-game to late-game they have a lot of difficulty doing so.
To say that Pao is on the same level as certain banned Arceus formes or even Zekrom is bs, Pao is nowhere near those levels of power otherwise we wouldn't even be having these debates. However, I still do think that Pao's presence in the tier is still unhealthy in that even the available counterplay to it is straining.
When it comes to the topic of Chien-Pao pushing pokemon out of the tier, I side with Vesp. The only example of Pao pushing a high tier out of viability is Solgaleo (;w;), with the examples Leo suggested not being very valid imo. Baxcalibur has never been viable; Hearthpon is still very strong, just has a high skill ceiling; Palkia-O has been dying since we got Solgaleo (and then i think Vesp figured out CM arc checked it anyways); Palafin is still great and in fact has gotten better imo as a way of checking Pao.
My issues when it comes to Pao are mainly the gameplay loops and dynamics it creates once it gets on the field.
Choice Banded Tera Dark Crunch is one of the moves of all time, dealing roughly 32% to physdef mag. Magearna is always a reliable switch into Pao, except Leftovers sets get ruined by Spikes, and Boots sets are held back by Fairy resists asw as Rocky Helmet. This creates for a dynamic where Pao can get brought in multiple times over the course of a game and whittle Magearna down to the point that it gets KOed by Crunch. And this is without considering Crunch's 20% chance to defense drop. Magearna takes a staggering amount of damage from Pao at -1 defense, which can significantly mess with Magearna's longevity.
When it comes to Pao's hazard weakness, it's not nearly as damning as some make it out to be imo. For one, Pao loses its weakness to rocks if it Tera Darks (which I have found to be a game-winning decision in many instances). Pao also threatens to OHKO one of the best rockers in the tier - Landorus. Stealth Rock Arceus is real and valid, but it's definitely not the most commonly seen set as you'd rather run another set in most cases.
Another reason I dislike Pao's presence in the tier is how it can even get around offensive counterplay. Having both Sucker Punch and Ice Shard are invaluable in dealing with the scarfed and naturally faster pokemon that would check Pao. On Choice Band sets, Pao can't use priority to avoid being revenge killed, but it still can easily come in on something faster than it and still scare it out with a Choice Band Tera Dark Sucker Punch. Even Palafin gets forced out by Pao coming in, because of Sucker Punch. Zacian is the one of the few offensive pokemon that Pao cannot deal with, however Zacian isn't that strong power-wise, and cannot afford to Tera to break past pokemon such as Magearna, lest it lose its resistance to Sucker Punch or gain a weakness to Ice Shard in the case of Tera Ground.
As for Pao checking Mewtwo, M2 is a seperate topic that I wanna discuss in another post but for now I'll say I think M2 is crazy even with Pao in the tier but again that's a seperate post.
When it comes to dealing with Arceus, particularly Arceus-Dark, Pao definitely has it rougher and gets forced out which is a point I concede. However I do want to point out that Giratina and Solgaleo (which doesn't even see that much usage nowadays) function as blanket checks for a lot of pokemon in the tier, and won't always be at max health. Early in the game, they can come in to force out Pao but beginning mid-game to late-game they have a lot of difficulty doing so.
To say that Pao is on the same level as certain banned Arceus formes or even Zekrom is bs, Pao is nowhere near those levels of power otherwise we wouldn't even be having these debates. However, I still do think that Pao's presence in the tier is still unhealthy in that even the available counterplay to it is straining.
Related to these whole discussions, I'm starting to be convinced the council should tier us more like OU than we currently have been. I think as other metagames get better (more balanced) now that the DLCs are well behind us, we shouldn't be left behind. When magearna is mandatory, most breaking 'mons can be invalidated with chien-pao or zacian, and running 4-6 boots is necessary because your hazard spinners (EVEN WITH TERAPAGOS) are having a really hard time doing anything, the meta is getting a little stale. I think the seasonal tournament is really helping that, and forcing the meta to develop some more. I make meme sets that I know are memes, but I'm not memeing about kyurem-white y'all. Anyways, I don't think our competition in gameplay quality should be Ubers, it should be OU. That's not to say we need to ban every slightly problematic pokemon, but I think we're overtuned in the direction of too much busted stuff (mostly chien-pao and mewtwo, however NDW would probably have to go if the other two did). I really like a diverse meta, and I could see not just Solgaleo rising back up, but also things like skarmory, dialga, Zamazenta-crowned, corviknight, and iron treads if your steel type didn't need a chien-pao answer, for instance.
TL;DR: Meta is lacking diversity, and I think bans are the way to go.
TL;DR: Meta is lacking diversity, and I think bans are the way to go.
Given the recent survey results, I just don't think there needs to be any action on any mons atm since people generally feel they are not super problematic (according to the survey). Nothing really stood out there, but it's always nice to have a discussion on what things specifically should be on the radar. Right now I think Chien-Pao is fine, even by OU standards it's just an S tier pokemon, meaning the tier revolves a lot around it but it's not particularly broken. Same can be said for NDW, a lot of builds revolve around how to deal with NDW or using NDW yourself, which really just makes it an S tier rank but not broken in relation to the meta. I disagree heavily with the notion that Magearna is mandatory, and I've used plenty of non-Magearna teams that deal with both Chien-Pao and Zacian just fine (in fact Mag doesn't even deal with them if they are Tera Blast Fire/Ground).
Which brings me to another point, I think Tera Blast should really be looked into significantly. Tera Blast enables Chien-Pao, Zacian, and NDW tremendously to overcome their normal checks, and Tera Blast as a mechanic in a high octane metagame can cause random cheese tactics to just win out (for example a random Tera Blast Giratina). I don't think Tera Blast is essential to the development of the Ubers UU metagame, and I think if you remove it you would be a lot better into checking the big 3 threats (Chien-Pao, Zacian, NDW) since you at least know they can't invalidate their primary checks. There's something to be said about knowing that your opponent's mon is only going to use move types that it's capable of learning and not having to worry about a random tera blast. If we were to do any tiering action atm, I think Tera Blast would be the thing to look at instead of banning several mons at once.
Bax was never good, Pao didn't push it out of the meta, Bax was never part of the metagame. Palkia-O wasn't pushed out by Chien-Pao, it was pushed out by Mewtwo since M2 does everything Palk does but better. Ogerpon-H is still good, Pao Rkilling it sucks but it benefits from Mag+Lando being on nearly every team, since it shits on both of them. Pao and NDW also lowered the usage of Giratina, who was the old mon that would block an Ogerpon sweep.Spec is only good when HO is good, HO is not good, and it's for reasons mostly unrelated to Pao.
Teams don't overprepare for Pao, they slot Magearna and a speed control mon(which is what teams have looked like since the tier's inception)
First off, Band Tdark Crunch->Defense drop -> Band Tdark crunch does not kill, and I have no idea why you said it does. Regardless thinking a mon is broken because its attacks have side effects is pretty silly. It's not even a small part of why pao is good, it's just an extra thing to bring up to pad word count. Flinches/Defense drops/crits are just part of the game we play.
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 162-191 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 107-127 (29.3 - 34.8%) -- 11.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 107-127 (29.3 - 34.8%) -- 11.7% chance to 3HKO
I wasn't saying Tina could switch into Pao, I was listing Tina as an example of how Pao can't come in on tons of defensive mons. Saying "Giratina can't switch in anyways" is ignoring the point entirely. Also Pao has alot of synergy with other mons sure, but every offensive mon has synergies. Yeah obviously getting that chip is nice, but it doesn't mean Pao wants to get wisped by Tina and watch as 8 turns later Tina rests on a Landorus-T it speedcrept.
I was talking about Calm Mind arceus? Feels a bit disingenuous to talk about something entirely unrelated to the point I was raising.
Well it has to take a round of full rocks chip before it tera's either way, which fucking sucks, and when combined with the ever-present Spikes laid by Magearna, it means Pao is often coming in at 60%. And if you don't choose to Tera, then not much changes.
First off, Lando isn't forced by any means, it's definitely a dominating force, but there are TONS of alternatives, Mandi, Grasseus, etc. are all perfectly legitimate mons. Secondly, as i stated in my post, even with VoltTurn it doesnt want to come in on half the metagame. Pao can't switch into anything, for risk of being permanently crippled or outright killed.
First off, Dialga, Skarm, Corv, and Treads haven't ever been sturdy(get it?) metagame picks. None of them have been much better than niche since January. Zamazenta-C is still very very good. It's gotten great tour results, is on a sample team, and is still placed pretty high on the Viability Rankings. Solg would definitely be much better though.
Hard disagree, our power level is inherently going to be much higher than OU, and unlike both we get shifts, so basing tiering off of either is going to leave flaws. We have to tier this tier uniquely, and take elements of other tier's tiering policy, because UUbers is a unique metagame that functions differently from almost any other tier on the site.
Not really? The metagame is still very diverse, and it's not like the metagame has ever been not centralized. The diversity loss that Pao incurred on the tier is literally just Solgaleo not being very good anymore, all the other Steel-types you listed haven't been ever been very good.
No, you can definitely rely on entry hazard clearers, maybe not as much as you could in the past maybe, but they're still quite reliable. And banning Pao does nothing to fix this issue anyways. Chien-Pao doesn't really prevent Giratina from clicking Defog, or prevent Terapagos from spinning. Giratina doesn't defog on Pao, it defogs on one of the million other Pokémon it walls and it's the same thing for Terapagos, it's not spinning on Pao(it can if Tera Shell is up though) it's spinning on a passive utility mon then clicking CM or switching out.
Another aspect of Pao I forgot to mention in my previous post is that it requires extensive investment in the builder. It's a Tera Hog, it's hard countered by the best mon in the tier, that's on 99% of good teams. Pao is certainly not a bad mon by any means, it's nothing less than a top 5 mon, but it's always going to have a somewhat middling matchup into a well constructed team. It's nice to have a stable win condition to meet, but it's definitely something that requires good play and building to execute.
Regardless, community support for a Chien-Pao ban has only gone down since we suspected it going from a 6.34/10(3.17/5) to a much lower 5.4/10 from qualified voters. The previous Chien-Pao suspect wasn't particularly close to being banned either, with a majority of voters thinking it should not be banned. If a second Pao suspect were to pass, it would be months from now, and if the current playerbase trend of thinking Pao isn't much a problem continues, it will likely not happen at all.
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How do y'all build your physdef magearnas? I have to choose between boots and lefties, and these days I feel pretty obligated to run boots given how many spikes are all over the place. That leaves me wanting to run draining kiss for some longevity, but I feel passive without a strong attack like fleur cannon. I've tried to make mag less passive by running encore over twave, but that leaves problems of its own. I've even experimented with dropping spikes, but I think that's just bad. What jobs do you see as being the most important for mag, and how do you build it to handle all these problems?
For me the options are:
Magearna @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Soul-Heart
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draining Kiss
- Spikes
- Encore
- Volt Switch
Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Spikes
- Encore
- Volt Switch
You can run twave over encore but I personally prefer encore.
I’m inclined to say that lefties/cannon is the better set esp cause of the Lando matchup. Having a strong stab attack is just really good to deter bulky attackers from switching in. Issue with that is that it leaves less room for error when it comes to stopping your opponent from stacking spikes. With good play, I feel like lefties/cannon rewards you more, but boots/dkiss has value in that it’s little more of a crutch imo.
Was bored, good chance I missed something
Teams: 108
Arceus: 77.78% (W: 51.2%)
Magearna: 68.52% (W: 48.65%)
Landorus-Therian: 41.67% (W: 51.11%)
Necrozma Dawn Wings: 34.26% (W: 37.84%)
Arceus-Dark: 33.33% (W: 57.78%)
Zacian: 32.41% (W: 54.29%)
Terapagos: 25% (W: 66.67%)
Chien-Pao: 24.07% (W: 50%)
Arceus-Poison: 21.3% (W: 39.13%)
Landorus-Incarnate: 19.44% (W: 23.81%)
Mewtwo: 16.67% (W: 50%)
Giratina: 14.81% (W: 43.75%)
Slowking Galar: 13.89% (W: 53.33%)
Zamazenta-Crowned: 12.96% (W: 28.57%)
Arceus-Grass: 12.04% (W: 46.15%)
Palafin: 11.11% (W: 66.67%)
Toxapex: 11.11% (W: 41.67%)
Deoxys: 10.19% (W: 45.45%)
Chi-Yu: 9.59% (W: 50%)
Regieleki: 9.59% (W: 50%)
Urshifu: 9.59% (W: 30%)
Alomomola: 8.33% (W: 44.44%)
Sneasler: 8.33% (W: 44.44%)
Kyurem-White: 7.41% (W: 37.5%)
Arceus-Electric: 4.63% (W: 80%)
Cyclizar: 4.63% (W: 80%)
Garganacl: 4.63% (W: 80%)
Spectrier: 4.63% (W: 80%)
Iron Treads: 4.63% (W: 60%)
Ursaluna: 4.63% (W: 40%)
Ogerpon: 3.7% (2: 100%)
Roaring Moon: 3.7% (W: 100%)
Annihilape: 3.7% (W: 75%)
Dialga: 3.7% (W: 50%)
Palkia-Origin: 3.7% (W: 25%)
Rillaboom: 3.7% (W: 25%)
Deoxys-Speed: 2.78% (2: 100%)
Great Tusk: 2.78% (W: 100%)
Moltres: 2.78% (W: 100%)
Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 2.78% (W: 100%)
Araquanid: 2.78% (66.67%)
Arceus-Fighting: 2.78% (W: 66.67%)
Baxcalibur: 2.78% (W: 66.67%)
Galvantula: 2.78% (W: 66.67%)
Arceus-Psychic: 1.85% (W: 100%)
Gholdengo: 1.85% (W: 100%)
Mandibuzz: 1.85% (W: 100%)
Volcarona: 1.85% (W: 100%)
Dragonite: 1.85% (W: 50%)
Iron Moth: 1.85% (W: 50%)
Iron Valiant: 1.85% (W: 50%)
Pincurchin: 1.85% (W: 50%)
Raging Bolt: 1.85% (W: 50%)
Solgaleo: 1.85% (W: 50%)
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 1.85% (W: 50%)
Palkia: 1.85% (W: 0%)
Arceus-Dragon: 0.93% (W: 100%)
Arceus-Ice: 0.93% (W: 100%)
Corviknight: 0.93% (W: 100%)
Gouging Fire: 0.93% (W: 100%)
Klefki: 0.93% (W: 100%)
Ninetales-Alola: 0.93% (W: 100%)
Rotom-Wash: 0.93% (W: 100%)
Dialga-Origin: 0.93% (W: 0%)
Garchomp: 0.93% (W: 100%)
Hoopa-Unbound: 0.93% (W: 0%)
Moltres-Galar: 0.93% (W: 0%)
Muk-Alola: 0.93% (W: 0%)
Ninetales: 0.93% (W: 100%)
Pelipper: 0.93% (W: 0%)
Rampardos: 0.93% (W: 0%)
Samurott-Hisui: 0.93% (W: 0%)
Skarmory: 0.93% (W: 0%)
Slowking: 0.93% (W: 0%)
Teams: 108
Arceus: 77.78% (W: 51.2%) Magearna: 68.52% (W: 48.65%) Landorus-Therian: 41.67% (W: 51.11%) Necrozma Dawn Wings: 34.26% (W: 37.84%) Arceus-Dark: 33.33% (W: 57.78%) Zacian: 32.41% (W: 54.29%) Terapagos: 25% (W: 66.67%) Chien-Pao: 24.07% (W: 50%) Arceus-Poison: 21.3% (W: 39.13%) Landorus-Incarnate: 19.44% (W: 23.81%) Mewtwo: 16.67% (W: 50%) Giratina: 14.81% (W: 43.75%) Slowking Galar: 13.89% (W: 53.33%) Zamazenta-Crowned: 12.96% (W: 28.57%) Arceus-Grass: 12.04% (W: 46.15%) Palafin: 11.11% (W: 66.67%) Toxapex: 11.11% (W: 41.67%) Deoxys: 10.19% (W: 45.45%) Chi-Yu: 9.59% (W: 50%) Regieleki: 9.59% (W: 50%) Urshifu: 9.59% (W: 30%) Alomomola: 8.33% (W: 44.44%) Sneasler: 8.33% (W: 44.44%) Kyurem-White: 7.41% (W: 37.5%) Arceus-Electric: 4.63% (W: 80%) Cyclizar: 4.63% (W: 80%) Garganacl: 4.63% (W: 80%) Spectrier: 4.63% (W: 80%) Iron Treads: 4.63% (W: 60%) Ursaluna: 4.63% (W: 40%) Ogerpon: 3.7% (2: 100%) Roaring Moon: 3.7% (W: 100%) Annihilape: 3.7% (W: 75%) Dialga: 3.7% (W: 50%) Palkia-Origin: 3.7% (W: 25%) Rillaboom: 3.7% (W: 25%) Deoxys-Speed: 2.78% (2: 100%) Great Tusk: 2.78% (W: 100%) Moltres: 2.78% (W: 100%) Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 2.78% (W: 100%) Araquanid: 2.78% (66.67%) Arceus-Fighting: 2.78% (W: 66.67%) Baxcalibur: 2.78% (W: 66.67%) Galvantula: 2.78% (W: 66.67%) Arceus-Psychic: 1.85% (W: 100%) Gholdengo: 1.85% (W: 100%) Mandibuzz: 1.85% (W: 100%) Volcarona: 1.85% (W: 100%) Dragonite: 1.85% (W: 50%) Iron Moth: 1.85% (W: 50%) Iron Valiant: 1.85% (W: 50%) Pincurchin: 1.85% (W: 50%) Raging Bolt: 1.85% (W: 50%) Solgaleo: 1.85% (W: 50%) Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 1.85% (W: 50%) Palkia: 1.85% (W: 0%) Arceus-Dragon: 0.93% (W: 100%) Arceus-Ice: 0.93% (W: 100%) Corviknight: 0.93% (W: 100%) Gouging Fire: 0.93% (W: 100%) Klefki: 0.93% (W: 100%) Ninetales-Alola: 0.93% (W: 100%) Rotom-Wash: 0.93% (W: 100%) Dialga-Origin: 0.93% (W: 0%) Garchomp: 0.93% (W: 100%) Hoopa-Unbound: 0.93% (W: 0%) Moltres-Galar: 0.93% (W: 0%) Muk-Alola: 0.93% (W: 0%) Ninetales: 0.93% (W: 100%) Pelipper: 0.93% (W: 0%) Rampardos: 0.93% (W: 0%) Samurott-Hisui: 0.93% (W: 0%) Skarmory: 0.93% (W: 0%) Slowking: 0.93% (W: 0%)
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All Arceus: 87% (W:50.57%) Magearna: 69.00% (W:50.72%) Arceus-Dark: 43.00% (W:51.16%) Landorus-Therian: 40.00% (W:47.50%)Zacian: 32.00% (W:59.38%) Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: 31.00% (W:41.94%) Chien-Pao: 26.00% (W:53.85%) Terapagos: 25.00% (W:64.00%) Giratina: 25.00% (W:52.00%) Palafin: 20.00% (W:35.00%) Arceus-Poison: 18.00% (W:50.00%)Landorus: 16.00% (W:50.00%) Arceus-Grass: 15.00% (W:46.67%) Mewtwo: 14.00% (W:57.14%) Slowking-Galar: 14.00% (W:50.00%) Toxapex: 13.00% (W:69.23%) Sneasler: 12.00% (W:41.67%) Regieleki: 11.00% (W:36.36%)
Zamazenta: 11.00% (W:36.36% Deoxys: 10.00% (W:50.00%) Chi-Yu: 10.00% (W:50.00%) Alomomola: 8.00% (W:62.50%) Cyclizar: 7.00% (W:42.86%) Iron Treads: 7.00% (W:57.14%) Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 7.00% (W:85.71%) Kyurem-White: 6.00% (W:66.67%) Dialga: 6.00% (W:33.33%) Solgaleo: 6.00% (W:W: 33.33%) Palkia-Origin: 6.00% (W:16.67%) Rillaboom: 6.00% (W:33.33%) Garganacl: 6.00% (W:100.00%) Spectrier: 5.00% (W:60.00%) Urshifu: 4.00% (W:50.00%) Great Tusk: 4.00% (W:75.00%) Raging Bolt: 4.00% (W:25.00%) Arceus-Fighting: 4.00% (W:25.00%) Deoxys-Speed: 4.00% (W:50.00%) Arceus-Electric: 4.00% (W:75.00%)
Meowscarada: 3.00% (W:33.33%) Ursaluna: 3.00% (W:0.00%) Mandibuzz: 3.00% (W:66.67%)
Lugia: 3.00% (W:33.33%) Roaring Moon: 3.00% (W:66.67%) Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 2.00% (W:0.00%) Volcarona: 2.00% (W:50.00%) Arceus-Dragon: 2.00% (W:50.00%)
Dugtrio: 2.00% (W:100.00%) Gholdengo: 2.00% (W:100.00%) Galvantula: 2.00% (W:0.00%) Iron Moth: 2.00% (W:50.00%) Iron Valiant: 2.00% (W:50.00%) Pincurchin: 2.00% (W:50.00%) Annihilape: 1.00% (W:0.00%)
Clefable: 1.00% (W:0.00%) Hoopa-Unbound: 1.00% (W:0.00%)
Lilligant-Hisui: 1.00% (W:0.00%)
Torkoal: 1.00% (W:0.00%)
Walking Wake: 1.00% (W:0.00%)
1.00% Reshiram: 1.00% (W:0.00%) Klefki: 1.00% (W:0.00%) Pelipper: 1.00% (W:0.00%) Araquanid: 1.00% (W:100.00%)
Breloom: 1.00% (W:100.00%) Palkia: 1.00% (W:0.00%) Rampardos: 1.00% (W:0.00%) Muk-Alola: 1.00% (W:100.00%) Dialga-Origin: 1.00% (W:0.00%)
Arceus-Bug: 1.00% (W:100.00%)Baxcalibur: 1.00% (W:100.00%) Zamazenta-Crowned: 1.00% (W:100.00%) Corviknight: 1.00% (W:100.00%) All Arceus: 83.51% (W:50.00%) Magearna: 70.1% (W: 46.32%) Landorus-Therian: 38.66% (W: 48%) Arceus-Dark: 37.63% (W: 50.68%) Zacian: 33.51% (W: 53.85%) Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: 32.99% (W: 39.06%) Terapagos: 27.84% (W: 62.96%) Chien-Pao: 24.23% (W: 53.19%) Arceus-Poison: 20.1% (W: 46.15%) Landorus: 19.07% (W: 35.14%) Giratina: 18.56% (W: 47.22%) Palafin: 17.53% (W: 44.12%) Mewtwo: 15.98% (W: 54.84%) Slowking-Galar: 15.46% (W: 56.67%) Arceus-Grass: 13.4% (W: 46.15%) Zamazenta: 12.89% (W: 32%) Toxapex: 11.86% (W: 47.83%) Deoxys: 10.82% (W: 47.62%) Chi-Yu: 10.31% (W: 50%) Sneasler: 9.79% (W: 42.11%) Regieleki: 9.79% (W: 42.11%) Alomomola: 9.28% (W: 55.56%) Kyurem-White: 6.7% (W: 46.15%) Iron Treads: 6.7% (W: 61.54%) Urshifu: 6.19% (W: 41.67%) Cyclizar: 6.19% (W: 58.33%) Garganacl: 5.67% (W: 90.91%) Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 5.15% (W: 80%) Spectrier: 5.15% (W: 70%) Dialga: 4.64% (W: 44.44%) Solgaleo: 4.64% (W: 44.44%) Palkia-Origin: 4.64% (W: 22.22%) Arceus-Electric: 4.64% (W: 77.78%) Rillaboom: 4.12% (W: 37.5%) Ursaluna: 3.61% (W: 28.57%) Arceus-Fighting: 3.61% (W: 28.57%) Deoxys-Speed: 3.61% (W: 71.43%) Roaring Moon: 3.61% (W: 85.71%) Great Tusk: 3.09% (W: 83.33%) Raging Bolt: 3.09% (W: 33.33%) Annihilape: 2.58% (W: 60%) Mandibuzz: 2.58% (W: 80%) Galvantula: 2.58% (W: 20%) Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 2.06% (W: 25%) Volcarona: 2.06% (W: 75%) Arceus-Dragon: 2.06% (W: 50%) Baxcalibur: 2.06% (W: 75%) Gholdengo: 2.06% (W: 100%) Ogerpon: 2.06% (W: 100%) Araquanid: 2.06% (W: 75%) Iron Moth: 2.06% (W: 50%) Iron Valiant: 2.06% (W: 50%) Pincurchin: 2.06% (W: 50%) Meowscarada: 1.55% (W: 33.33%) Palkia: 1.55% (W: 0%) Moltres: 1.55% (W: 100%) Dragonite: 1.55% (W: 66.67%) Lugia: 1.55% (W: 33.33%) Clefable: 1.03% (W: 50%) Dialga-Origin: 1.03% (W: 0%) Klefki: 1.03% (W: 50%) Dugtrio: 1.03% (W: 100%) Muk-Alola: 1.03% (W: 50%) Rampardos: 1.03% (W: 0%) Corviknight: 1.03% (W: 50%) Arceus-Psychic: 1.03% (W: 100%) Zamazenta-Crowned: 1.03% (W: 100%) Hoopa-Unbound: 0.52% (W: 0%) Moltres-Galar: 0.52% (W: 0%) Lilligant-Hisui: 0.52% (W: 0%) Torkoal: 0.52% (W: 0%) Walking Wake: 0.52% (W: 0%) Reshiram: 0.52% (W: 0%) Skarmory: 0.52% (W: 0%) Garchomp: 0.52% (W: 100%) Pelipper: 0.52% (W: 0%) Arceus-Ice: 0.52% (W: 100%) Rotom-Wash: 0.52% (W: 100%) Ninetales-Alola: 0.52% (W: 100%) Slowking: 0.52% (W: 0%) Gouging Fire: 0.52% (W: 100%) Ninetales: 0.52% (W: 100%) Samurott-Hisui: 0.52% (W: 0%)
Amoonguss: 0.52% (W: 100%)
Blissey: 0.52% (W: 100%)
Dondozo: 0.52% (W: 100%) Arceus-Bug: 0.52% (W: 100%) Breloom: 0.52% (W: 100%)Do note that there seems to be an issue with Zamazenta. As a result, take that stat with a grain of salt.
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arceus at 87% seems about right (though it should be higher)
Do note that there seems to be an issue with Zamazenta. As a result, take that stat with a grain of salt.
What do we think is the reason behind NDWs low win rate? Is it just too difficult to use properly, good teams counter it hard, or something else?
Do note that there seems to be an issue with Zamazenta. As a result, take that stat with a grain of salt.
A big part of it is probably that almost every team carries at least one Dark-type, and Arceus-Dark being the most common one by over 10% is even worse. Every team feels super prepared against it as Dark is an easy type to stack right now. I imagine its job as a spinblocker is also hard with a quad dark weakness.
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As Luna stated above, every team has at least one Dark type, and Arceus Dark is such a good NDW check.
However, I would like to add that since NDW has a high pick rate, it is probable that both players in a given match both have a NDW, which makes it harder for the winrate to rise.
All Arceus: 55.56% (W:56.67%) Magearna: 63.64% (W: 57.14%) Zacian: 34.09% (W: 46.67%) Arceus-Dark: 29.55% (W: 53.85%) Terapagos: 29.55% (W: 46.15%) Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: 29.55% (W: 46.15%) Landorus-Therian: 27.27% (W: 41.67%) Zamazenta: 25% (W: 45.45%) Giratina: 25% (W: 63.64%) Landorus: 22.73% (W: 50%) Chien-Pao: 18.18% (W: 25%) Arceus-Poison: 15.91% (W: 71.43%) Palafin: 15.91% (W: 42.86%) Iron Treads: 13.64% (W: 50%) Alomomola: 11.36% (W: 20%) Deoxys: 11.36% (W: 60%) Chi-Yu: 11.36% (W: 60%) Spectrier: 11.36% (W: 80%) Arceus-Dragon: 11.36% (W: 40%) Kyurem-White: 11.36% (W: 60%) Toxapex: 11.36% (W: 40%) Mewtwo: 11.36% (W: 100%) Urshifu: 9.09% (W: 75%) Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 9.09% (W: 75%) Baxcalibur: 6.82% (W: 66.67%) Deoxys-Speed: 6.82% (W: 100%) Sneasler: 6.82% (W: 33.33%) Dialga: 6.82% (W: 33.33%) Reshiram: 6.82% (W: 33.33%) Solgaleo: 4.55% (W: 50%) Rillaboom: 4.55% (W: 50%) Araquanid: 4.55% (W: 50%) Corviknight: 4.55% (W: 50%) Palkia-Origin: 4.55% (W: 50%) Roaring Moon: 4.55% (W: 50%) Dragonite: 4.55% (W: 50%)
Arceus-Rock: 4.55% (W: 50%)
Tyranitar: 4.55% (W: 50%) Regieleki: 4.55% (W: 0%) Clefable: 4.55% (W: 50%) Gholdengo: 2.27% (W: 0%)
Mamoswine: 2.27% (W: 0%)
Espeon: 2.27% (W: 0%)
Indeedee: 2.27% (W: 0%)
Polteageist-Antique: 2.27% (W: 0%)
Quagsire: 2.27% (W: 100%)
Enamorus-Therian: 2.27% (W: 0%)
Excadrill: 2.27% (W: 0%) Slowking-Galar: 2.27% (W: 0%) Mandibuzz: 2.27% (W: 100%)
Enamorus: 2.27% (W: 0%)
Kyurem: 2.27% (W: 0%)
Sableye: 2.27% (W: 0%) Arceus-Electric: 2.27% (W: 100%)
Dipplin: 2.27% (W: 100%)
Heatran: 2.27% (W: 100%) Hoopa-Unbound: 2.27% (W: 100%)
Thundurus: 2.27% (W: 100%) Ursaluna: 2.27% (W: 0%) Arceus-Fighting: 2.27% (W: 0%) Cyclizar: 2.27% (W: 0%) Lugia: 2.27% (W: 0%) Blissey: 2.27% (W: 0%) Garganacl: 2.27% (W: 0%) Arceus-Grass: 2.27% (W: 100%) All Arceus: 77.42%% (W:52.08%) Magearna: 68.91% (W: 48.17%) Landorus-Therian: 36.55% (W: 47.13%) Arceus-Dark: 36.13% (W: 51.16%) Zacian: 33.61% (W: 52.5%) Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: 32.35% (W: 40.26%) Terapagos: 28.15% (W: 59.7%) Chien-Pao: 23.11% (W: 49.09%) Giratina: 19.75% (W: 51.06%) Landorus: 19.75% (W: 38.3%) Arceus-Poison: 19.33% (W: 50%) Palafin: 17.23% (W: 43.9%) Mewtwo: 15.13% (W: 61.11%) Zamazenta: 15.13% (W: 36.11%) Slowking-Galar: 13.03% (W: 54.84%) Toxapex: 11.76% (W: 46.43%) Arceus-Grass: 11.34% (W: 48.15%) Deoxys: 10.92% (W: 50%) Chi-Yu: 10.5% (W: 52%) Alomomola: 9.66% (W: 47.83%) Sneasler: 9.24% (W: 40.91%) Regieleki: 8.82% (W: 38.1%) Iron Treads: 7.98% (W: 57.89%) Kyurem-White: 7.56% (W: 50%) Urshifu: 6.72% (W: 50%) Spectrier: 6.3% (W: 73.33%) Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 5.88% (W: 78.57%) Cyclizar: 5.46% (W: 53.85%) Dialga: 5.04% (W: 41.67%) Garganacl: 5.04% (W: 83.33%) Solgaleo: 4.62% (W: 45.45%) Palkia-Origin: 4.62% (W: 27.27%) Deoxys-Speed: 4.2% (W: 80%) Rillaboom: 4.2% (W: 40%) Arceus-Electric: 4.2% (W: 80%) Arceus-Dragon: 3.78% (W: 44.44%) Roaring Moon: 3.78% (W: 77.78%) Ursaluna: 3.36% (W: 25%) Arceus-Fighting: 3.36% (W: 25%) Baxcalibur: 2.94% (W: 71.43%) Great Tusk: 2.52% (W: 83.33%) Raging Bolt: 2.52% (W: 33.33%) Mandibuzz: 2.52% (W: 83.33%) Araquanid: 2.52% (W: 66.67%) Annihilape: 2.1% (W: 60%) Gholdengo: 2.1% (W: 80%) Galvantula: 2.1% (W: 20%) Dragonite: 2.1% (W: 60%) Clefable: 1.68% (W: 50%) Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 1.68% (W: 25%) Volcarona: 1.68% (W: 75%) Reshiram: 1.68% (W: 25%) Ogerpon: 1.68% (W: 100%) Corviknight: 1.68% (W: 50%) Iron Moth: 1.68% (W: 50%) Iron Valiant: 1.68% (W: 50%) Pincurchin: 1.68% (W: 50%) Lugia: 1.68% (W: 25%) Meowscarada: 1.26% (W: 33.33%) Palkia: 1.26% (W: 0%) Moltres: 1.26% (W: 100%) Hoopa-Unbound: 0.84% (W: 50%) Dialga-Origin: 0.84% (W: 0%) Klefki: 0.84% (W: 50%) Dugtrio: 0.84% (W: 100%) Muk-Alola: 0.84% (W: 50%) Rampardos: 0.84% (W: 0%) Blissey: 0.84% (W: 50%) Arceus-Psychic: 0.84% (W: 100%) Arceus-Rock: 0.84% (W: 50%) Tyranitar: 0.84% (W: 50%) Zamazenta-Crowned: 0.84% (W: 100%) Moltres-Galar: 0.42% (W: 0%) Lilligant-Hisui: 0.42% (W: 0%) Torkoal: 0.42% (W: 0%) Walking Wake: 0.42% (W: 0%) Skarmory: 0.42% (W: 0%) Garchomp: 0.42% (W: 100%) Pelipper: 0.42% (W: 0%) Arceus-Ice: 0.42% (W: 100%) Rotom-Wash: 0.42% (W: 100%) Ninetales-Alola: 0.42% (W: 100%) Slowking: 0.42% (W: 0%) Gouging Fire: 0.42% (W: 100%) Ninetales: 0.42% (W: 100%) Samurott-Hisui: 0.42% (W: 0%) Amoonguss: 0.42% (W: 100%) Dondozo: 0.42% (W: 100%) Enamorus-Therian: 0.42% (W: 0%) Excadrill: 0.42% (W: 0%) Mamoswine: 0.42% (W: 0%) Quagsire: 0.42% (W: 100%) Espeon: 0.42% (W: 0%) Indeedee: 0.42% (W: 0%) Polteageist-Antique: 0.42% (W: 0%) Enamorus: 0.42% (W: 0%) Kyurem: 0.42% (W: 0%) Sableye: 0.42% (W: 0%) Dipplin: 0.42% (W: 100%) Heatran: 0.42% (W: 100%) Thundurus: 0.42% (W: 100%) Arceus-Bug: 0.42% (W: 100%) Breloom: 0.42% (W: 100%)100% wr on m2
You can use it but I wouldn't say it's very good
so, HO is usually not the best in here, since this tier is built upon PhysDef Magearna and Arceus formes, some people have made it work though, mainly Shadow079 he'll probably give you some better statement on it
Hi, im kinda the HO guy here in the tier. Personally I think it is a viable playstyle, but it does face challenges in the tier. These can include the strong prio present in mons like palafin, chienpao and e killer arceus, or just bulkier mons like giratina if you don't have a gameplan for it. You can also struggle with stall but that's true for HO in near any tier and stall is itself not amazing in the tier due to breakers like mewtwo and chienpao. While these are challenges I believe most can be built around, but it is difficult to make a team which accomdates for all issues.
Here's a HO team I've been using somewhat recently, I find it quite fun and I think it's a good example of HO in the tier (minus the eleceus set maybe, that's just me being weird).
https://pokepast.es/ec7e5d3cadaa7256