Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [PALAFIN RETEST]

[Magcargo]

If you've played the metagame u know how much terapagos can do and how unreasonable it is and how many sets it can run. Although i do think terapagos is the ONLY broken pokemon in the tier (i'll make a longer post soon explaining why the tier is good as is)

Yeah, I mostly feel the same way that not much needs to be immediately addressed after Terapagos. Most of the unbans largely don't feel too broken to me currently. Volcarona is really good, but about on par with how good it was in previous gens. Gliscor is running into more roadblocks in this meta with multiple strong Ice Type attackers like Kyurem, LO Deo-S, Darkrai, etc. Deo-S is annoying, but we've been dealing with Spikers that are about as annoying for the past year so its nothing new. Darkrai and Moon are scary, but is hard to really get a grasp if they are broken or just "pretty solid". Most of the old "broken" Pokemon don't feel as good now. Ghold feels kinda meh rn with Darkrai and Volcarona running around using it as bait. Kingambit feels better rn, but it wasn't broken in the previous meta imo so its fine. Three of the new mons are solid Ogerpon checks + returning threats and higher general speed tiers make it feel less broken than in the DLC1 meta, where it was borderline.

These are day 1 impressions, but so far this metagame feels fairly balanced.

EDIT: Actually the one thing that I think should be looked at in the future is Spikes.

 

[Heatranator]

Can this forum be locked for like.. the rest of the generation? xD
Honestly, i feel like this just isn't a good place to be.
ANYways, I'm logging off for this gen. Might chime in on surveys if I spot them in time, but yeah.
See ya in Gen 10 (if we ever get there)!

Sad that the saltiness is pushing people away, but I get it.
Sometimes it feels like this forum does the opposite of what it is meant to do, which is to create discussions and promote thinking. It does the first, not the second. People get stuck in their heads and think "I'm always right, they are just trying to downplay me". Of course I'm also affected by this as well, I've gotten into arguements that go on and on without any acknowledgment. I mean, I'm not affected by this at all. /j
This just leads to discourse and people leaving, so I'll say this. If an arguement goes over ten posts, step back for a few minutes and take a few minutes break. Then start from the start of the convo, and reread it to know what the other person is trying to say. Most people have some great ideas, they just don't back it up well enough and come across as idiots.

 

[YNM]

ayo Volc is that you?

 

[Heatranator]

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ayo Volc is that you?

 

[KamenOH]

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ayo Volc is that you?

Since you arent immediately dissolving once you touch a concealed cobble, couldnt you run a modified set that uses booster energy, or is that not worth it in spite of the morning sun

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Hell, im still of the opinion a review thread could work things out
Only two serious options come out of it: either the normal terapagos is unbanned, or finch can finally say "this is what you wanted. are you happy" to the continued ban, and get some rest for the first time this month

i think an eventual policy review discussion is warranted because in this case it seems—at least from my perspective as an outside observer of the process—that tiering philosophy ("this is the flagship and most permissive non-ubers tier, so we should try to include as many non-broken mons as we can") and tiering policy ("these forms have to be tiered together") might be somewhat clashing, but it definitely wasn't the time to do that now because it would require keeping the whole mon in the tier while everyone talks it out. i also don't think it makes much sense to have that discussion before the tera suspect, because it might end up being a waste of time—what if we implement terapagos clause and then tera gets banned and all that discussion becomes moot?

 

[Pokenar]

i think an eventual policy review discussion is warranted because in this case it seems that tiering philosophy ("try to include as many non-broken mons as we can") and tiering policy ("these forms have to be tiered together") might be somewhat clashing, but it definitely wasn't the time to do that now because it would require keeping the whole mon in the tier while everyone talks it out. i also don't think it makes much sense to have that discussion before the tera suspect, because it might end up being a waste of time—what if we implement terapagos clause and then tera gets banned and all that discussion becomes moot?

I agree, I think a discussion about policy and priorities is in order, but getting it banned before we start that debate was important.

 

[YNM]

Since you arent immediately dissolving once you touch a concealed cobble, couldnt you run a modified set that uses booster energy, or is that not worth it in spite of the morning sun

You definitely could, but in that case I would rather run an EV spread like this

to trigger the Def boost. IMO you could also run a Leftovers set to exploit the Burning Protect and get some nice HP back.

 

[Magcargo]

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ayo Volc is that you?

This mon is Volc except it doesn't need to Tera for Ground Coverage lmao.

This mon is truly packing heat alright....

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

so we can change your forum name to "i was wrong, sorry" if it is not the first ban?

i feel like he should get to change someone else's forum name now, it's only fair

This mon is Volc except it doesn't need to Tera for Ground Coverage lmao.

This mon is truly packing heat alright....

i can definitely see the similarities. i'd wager gouging flame is gonna be a meta staple or at least a consistently good pick once things settle down, and even now it seems like it matches up well into a lot of the more common things i'm seeing

 

[YNM]

This mon is Volc except it doesn't need to Tera for Ground Coverage lmao.

This mon is truly packing heat alright....

Aight how about this, you run BOTH Temper Flare and Stomping Tantrum so you can hit incoming Flash Fire mons like Heatran, Ceruledge and Arcanine-H with a 150 BP Ground move, and you purposely go for Stomping Tantrum on the likes of Moltres, Dragonite and Salamence so you can then hit them with a 150 BP STAB move. Ayo are we cooking right now?

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

View attachment 580870
Aight how about this, you run BOTH Temper Flare and Stomping Tantrum so you can hit incoming Flash Fire mons like Heatran, Ceruledge and Arcanine-H with a 150 BP Ground move, and you purposely go for Stomping Tantrum on the likes of Moltres, Dragonite and Salamence so you can then hit them with a 150 BP STAB move. Ayo are we cooking right now?

oh that's some real heat right there. but i can't help but shake the feeling that burning bulwark is still too good of a defensive utility move to leave off of it. the only reason it's as good as it is defensively, and the biggest reason you want the boost in defense instead of attack in the first place, is because of how easily it can burn stuff, right? at least that's how i see it. but this is definitely something i could see being neat

 

[CobsonYaoi]

Quick question; If a Pokemon uses Protect and fails, would that double Stomping Tantrum's power?

 

[KamenOH]

Quick question; If a Pokemon uses Protect and fails, would that double Stomping Tantrum's power?

Well, a move failed, and a failed move boosts stomping tantrum's (as well as one of the new moves iirc) power, so yeah it would

 

[YNM]

Quick question; If a Pokemon uses Protect and fails, would that double Stomping Tantrum's power?

Just tested this. It does. Nevermind Heat Crash, just run Temper Flare with Burning Bulwark.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

So, just jumping into the thread - What's the current list of ban candidates looking like?

 

[Pokenar]

So, just jumping into the thread - What's the current list of ban candidates looking like?

Deoxys-S seems to be the only one people are really talking about, it feels like.

 

[TheTraininator]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/terapagos-is-banned-from-sv-ou.3732751/

Guess it’s actually turtles all the way up, huh?

 

[Cuddly]

With Terapagos banned;


Most likely candidate to go to Ubers next. Everyone is saying how broken it is and imo I say it's maybe. Deoxys-Speed is really good at support thanks to its speed and access to Teleport ironically makes it excellent for HO. Its support options also seem manageable though. So long as your opponent is lucky and Samurott-H doesn't miss the inaccurate Ceaseless Edge first turn, Deoxys-S at best gets 1 layer of hazards because of Aqua Jet. Or Hatterene forcing it to run Skill Swap over something it'd actually like. It also competes with several other spikes setters in the tier like Hamurott, Gliscor, Smeargle, and Glimmora, all of which provide something for hazard stacking Deoxys-S wouldn't. However it's not just hazard stacking, it can also run Screens and even run offensive sets, which likely will push it over the edge. Outspeeding even Dragapult naturely, with only a few Speed EVs to boot, it can use Nasty Plot while being way stronger and bulkier if it wants to (though Max Speed is the better option because Deoxys-S is everywhere and that probably means its a bit broken).


Has a lot less fanfair for good reason. It's just kind of outclassed by Mew as a whole. It's less bulky than Mew who has better offenses, speed, movepool, and arguably ability too. Only thing Deoxys-D gets over Mew is teleport, which Mew gets U-turn so it's fine.

(Iron Boulder)
I think Iron Boulder with Terapagos no longer stealing the spotlight will be seen as a massive threat. It's the 3rd fastest Paradox Pokemon in the game, the fastest one in OU, and because of that it outspeeds so much of the metagame from a Booster Energy. Its signature move Mighty Cleave is arguably the best rock type move in the game, no thanks to being 100% accurate, in addition to bypassing protect. This is important as with Tera (not weak to ground), you can beat Gliscor after a Sword Dance or too. You also bypass the burn effect of Burning Bulwark and Baneful Bunker too. So with Mighty Cleave, it is much harder to stall out Iron Boulder from rampaging through a team and doesn't waste PP. It's actually kind of like Urshifu in a way, just with one move and not all contact moves.
It does have flaws I saw while using it. While actually having pretty solid bulk, which will be another thing to decide if it gets a suspect or not, it's weak to common priority. Weak to Grassy Glide, Aqua Jet, Sucker Punch, Bullet Punch, and Shadow Sneak naturally. Also its Psychic STAB options are kind of poor. Best option is Zen Headbutt, but you really don't get much value out of it. You're better off with Close Combat as it provides better coverage for you, though without STAB naturally. Then that leads to Iron Boulder's other issue being Gholdengo, who walls its STABs, is immune to Fighting, and forces you to use Throat Chop for Air Balloon variants. This does cut down Iron Boulder's power, but don't mistake it as weak. It's one of the strongest Paradox Pokemon currently in the game.

So, just jumping into the thread - What's the current list of ban candidates looking like?

Likely Deoxys-S is next. I also have a hunch Iron Boulder will be next or one of the unbanned Pokemon like Roaring Moon.

 

[ant4456]

This post will be scattered and rant-y, as a fair warning.

Terapagos is basically just Ultra Necrozma x Zygarde-Complete so this result was basically exactly what I expected.

It is pretty much the Calyrex of Gen 9, the "postgame DLC" legendary that's basically the third legend, with a baby form and then a big big form.

I like a lot of the new Pokemon but Raging Bolt is probably my favorite comp design wise, I think its stats and moves and type is kinda fun. Sounds dumb, but it reminds me of Alolan Exeggutor with its lower speed, high power and high Dragon power. If you put Xurkitree (without Tail Glow) in a blender with Alolan Exeggutor, this is the result you get.

Kind of disappointed they are hard sticking to Proto/Quark because it means all of them get a boring ability. I feel like it made sense more for the ones released on launch because a lot of them are more Speed focused, while only the new Terakion really gets a big benefit IMO. Gouging could be aight with it but it needs Boots because haha, what I said like 5 months ago is literally still true.

Speaking of, while this is only minor text reactions I can promise you, when I typed "lunala lost - wanna guess" I was actually pissed ngl

Like, you could not believe my fucking eyes when I scrolled through the movepool additions and removals.

Game Freak really said "Restricted Legend. Cover box legend? Too bad, it cannot bounce its wings and defog this room. Fuck you." And probably spit on some employee coding in the movepool additions.

However, there is one big positive to the movepool additions we must discuss, Game Freak really went hard on giving a lot of Pokemon a move that is really important.

Slowbro-Galar got Double-Edge, we are saved.

Anywho, I want to thank Game Freak for understanding the assignment. Genuinely, I am actually genuinely not sure why they even brought Defog back in this game. You could cope before and say they were waiting for the DLC, but this game is so hostile to the move it is absurd. I am aware we only really got a lot of Defog because of HOME before, but even then, USUM to SV is such an insane drop in Defog quality that I actually cannot fathom what reason they had to bring it back.

They clearly hate the move and what it became.

As for the meta itself, I think it's been enjoyable, at least more enjoyable than some other day one launches I've played. Fuck, Crown Tundra launch days was practically unplayable honestly. Glare Sub Zygarde made that week genuinely unfun lmao. Terapagos was insane but it was banned quickly enough, hope to see the tier become good within a reasonable time.

 

[Pokenar]

Has a lot less fanfair for good reason. It's just kind of outclassed by Mew as a whole. It's less bulky than Mew who has better offenses, speed, movepool, and arguably ability too. Only thing Deoxys-D gets over Mew is teleport, which Mew gets U-turn so it's fine.

The thing about Deoxys-D is its HP is cheeks, so I would not be surprised in the slightest if Mew can do mixed defense better.

and yeah, I think Iron Boulder will at least be suspect tested, but I personally haven't seen anything but Deoxys-S that have calls for a QB

 

[Avira]

Has a lot less fanfair for good reason. It's just kind of outclassed by Mew as a whole. It's less bulky than Mew who has better offenses, speed, movepool, and arguably ability too. Only thing Deoxys-D gets over Mew is teleport, which Mew gets U-turn so it's fine.

Actually, Deoxys-D retains Recover, which Mew lost this gen. It is not a worse spiker than Mew because Mew is on a timer since all damage to it is lasting whereas Deoxys-D can last a long while. Don't use Deoxys-D as a suicide lead. Use Spikes with Recover.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

This post will be scattered and rant-y, as a fair warning.

Terapagos is basically just Ultra Necrozma x Zygarde-Complete so this result was basically exactly what I expected.

It is pretty much the Calyrex of Gen 9, the "postgame DLC" legendary that's basically the third legend, with a baby form and then a big big form.

I like a lot of the new Pokemon but Raging Bolt is probably my favorite comp design wise, I think its stats and moves and type is kinda fun. Sounds dumb, but it reminds me of Alolan Exeggutor with its lower speed, high power and high Dragon power. If you put Xurkitree (without Tail Glow) in a blender with Alolan Exeggutor, this is the result you get.

Kind of disappointed they are hard sticking to Proto/Quark because it means all of them get a boring ability. I feel like it made sense more for the ones released on launch because a lot of them are more Speed focused, while only the new Terakion really gets a big benefit IMO. Gouging could be aight with it but it needs Boots because haha, what I said like 5 months ago is literally still true.

Speaking of, while this is only minor text reactions I can promise you, when I typed "lunala lost - wanna guess" I was actually pissed ngl

Like, you could not believe my fucking eyes when I scrolled through the movepool additions and removals.
View attachment 580872View attachment 580873

Game Freak really said "Restricted Legend. Cover box legend? Too bad, it cannot bounce its wings and defog this room. Fuck you." And probably spit on some employee coding in the movepool additions.

However, there is one big positive to the movepool additions we must discuss, Game Freak really went hard on giving a lot of Pokemon a move that is really important.
View attachment 580874

Slowbro-Galar got Double-Edge, we are saved.

Anywho, I want to thank Game Freak for understanding the assignment. Genuinely, I am actually genuinely not sure why they even brought Defog back in this game. You could cope before and say they were waiting for the DLC, but this game is so hostile to the move it is absurd. I am aware we only really got a lot of Defog because of HOME before, but even then, USUM to SV is such an insane drop in Defog quality that I actually cannot fathom what reason they had to bring it back.

They clearly hate the move and what it became.

As for the meta itself, I think it's been enjoyable, at least more enjoyable than some other day one launches I've played. Fuck, Crown Tundra launch days was practically unplayable honestly. Glare Sub Zygarde made that week genuinely unfun lmao. Terapagos was insane but it was banned quickly enough, hope to see the tier become good within a reasonable time.

I genuinely imagine GF is just unaware that Defog is even something noteworthy to begin with. Hazards are barely used in VGC, so to them Defog is just a random evasion debuff move that was a HM in Gen 4.

 

[YNM]

(Iron Boulder)
I think Iron Boulder with Terapagos no longer stealing the spotlight will be seen as a massive threat. It's the 3rd fastest Paradox Pokemon in the game, the fastest one in OU, and because of that it outspeeds so much of the metagame from a Booster Energy. Its signature move Mighty Cleave is arguably the best rock type move in the game, no thanks to being 100% accurate, in addition to bypassing protect. This is important as with Tera (not weak to ground), you can beat Gliscor after a Sword Dance or too. You also bypass the burn effect of Burning Bulwark and Baneful Bunker too. So with Mighty Cleave, it is much harder to stall out Iron Boulder from rampaging through a team and doesn't waste PP. It's actually kind of like Urshifu in a way, just with one move and not all contact moves.
It does have flaws I saw while using it. While actually having pretty solid bulk, which will be another thing to decide if it gets a suspect or not, it's weak to common priority. Weak to Grassy Glide, Aqua Jet, Sucker Punch, Bullet Punch, and Shadow Sneak naturally. Also its Psychic STAB options are kind of poor. Best option is Zen Headbutt, but you really don't get much value out of it. You're better off with Close Combat as it provides better coverage for you, though without STAB naturally. Then that leads to Iron Boulder's other issue being Gholdengo, who walls its STABs, is immune to Fighting, and forces you to use Throat Chop for Air Balloon variants. This does cut down Iron Boulder's power, but don't mistake it as weak. It's one of the strongest Paradox Pokemon currently in the game.

I think the reason for Boulder being so threatening is mainly due to the meta not settling yet, so we're still having trouble teambuilding effectively when there are so many different HO strategies and threats running around. Priority moves aside (especially Grassy Glide and Sucker Punch, by far the 2 most common priority options in the previous meta), Iron Boulder could be potentially checked by the likes of Air Balloon Dengo, Skarmory, Corviknight, Dondozo, Defensive Landorus, Defensive Garchomp and maybe Ting-Lu/Archaludon if it's not running CC. It can also be worn down by Hazards, and it faces the same problem as Valiant by having a one-time use for its item.

Deoxys S and D are both broken on the other hand, with the second being outclassed by the first as an Hazard Setter but it will eventually become a problem as well once DeoS gets banned.

 

[KamenOH]

This post will be scattered and rant-y, as a fair warning.

Terapagos is basically just Ultra Necrozma x Zygarde-Complete so this result was basically exactly what I expected.

It is pretty much the Calyrex of Gen 9, the "postgame DLC" legendary that's basically the third legend, with a baby form and then a big big form.

I like a lot of the new Pokemon but Raging Bolt is probably my favorite comp design wise, I think its stats and moves and type is kinda fun. Sounds dumb, but it reminds me of Alolan Exeggutor with its lower speed, high power and high Dragon power. If you put Xurkitree (without Tail Glow) in a blender with Alolan Exeggutor, this is the result you get.

Kind of disappointed they are hard sticking to Proto/Quark because it means all of them get a boring ability. I feel like it made sense more for the ones released on launch because a lot of them are more Speed focused, while only the new Terakion really gets a big benefit IMO. Gouging could be aight with it but it needs Boots because haha, what I said like 5 months ago is literally still true.

Speaking of, while this is only minor text reactions I can promise you, when I typed "lunala lost - wanna guess" I was actually pissed ngl

Like, you could not believe my fucking eyes when I scrolled through the movepool additions and removals.
View attachment 580872View attachment 580873

Game Freak really said "Restricted Legend. Cover box legend? Too bad, it cannot bounce its wings and defog this room. Fuck you." And probably spit on some employee coding in the movepool additions.

However, there is one big positive to the movepool additions we must discuss, Game Freak really went hard on giving a lot of Pokemon a move that is really important.
View attachment 580874

Slowbro-Galar got Double-Edge, we are saved.

Anywho, I want to thank Game Freak for understanding the assignment. Genuinely, I am actually genuinely not sure why they even brought Defog back in this game. You could cope before and say they were waiting for the DLC, but this game is so hostile to the move it is absurd. I am aware we only really got a lot of Defog because of HOME before, but even then, USUM to SV is such an insane drop in Defog quality that I actually cannot fathom what reason they had to bring it back.

They clearly hate the move and what it became.

As for the meta itself, I think it's been enjoyable, at least more enjoyable than some other day one launches I've played. Fuck, Crown Tundra launch days was practically unplayable honestly. Glare Sub Zygarde made that week genuinely unfun lmao. Terapagos was insane but it was banned quickly enough, hope to see the tier become good within a reasonable time.

What gained defog, if anything? It seems wild that of all moves, it was the one with no gains, only losses.