Interesting! Thats actually pretty cool. I still think its fair to say more often that not, volc is used on offensive teams, but it certainly had more of a place on other builds than I originally thought.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [PALAFIN RETEST]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I do like Corv, but IDK how to feel about it in the metagame.
On one hand, its got a great typing, some nice tools in Pressure, U-Turn, ID + BP, Spite, can largely negate hazards, and has some solid MUs into some great Pokemon like Gliscor, Pecharunt, Lokix, + does decent into a few others like Valiant, Kyurem, Rocks Tusk, etc. On the other hand, its still very prone to passive damage (from Rocks + potential chip from U-Turn vs Helmet mons), struggles to make progress on its own (due to no T-Wave, Wisp, Flame Body, Knock Off, etc. + its Helmet being prone to being Knocked Off), and most of the Pokemon it checks having some ways around it (i.e. Iron Valiant can run Thunderbolt, Zamazenta can run Roar, etc.). I also think Corv is the Pokemon thats probably most hurt by Tera as a mechanic since it can limit its progress making abilities vs setup sweepers even more.
I never really thought Gholdengo was the dealbreaker for Corv like others. Sure, it blocks Defog, but its not immediately dropping Corv with most of its standard options and Corv being able to pop its Balloon is still nice for various partners like Ting-Lu and Gliscor. That said, IMO its Landorus-T MU is pretty damn bad, as Lando-T prevents Corv from recovering with Taunt and will deal a net 28% to it between Helmet chip + Rocks every time it goes for that line. There are tons of other MUs where its annoying to click U-Turn, like against Gliscor + Clef teams since the sticky barb will easily transfer to Corv. Other mons like Raging Bolt and Garg can be annoying for it depending on the situation as well. There are many Pokemon that I feel have an easier time making Progress than Corviknight, like Skarmory with Spikes + Whirlwind, Moltres / Zapdos with status + Roar, and Gliscor between Spikes, Toxic, and Knock Off.
On the flipside, I will say that Corv just has excellent defensive synergy with a lot of Pokemon. IMO, its a great partner for a lot of offensive Pokemon like Darkrai, Kyurem, Raging Bolt & Hydrappl given its ability to pivot many of these Pokemon in safely with its U-Turn + having good defensive synergy with them generally. It also works fine with several defensive mons like Clefable, Clodsire, Gliscor, since, its pressure ability + typing is nice in longer games.
I think some of the newer sets we are seeing are somewhat nice for its general viability. I gave Spdef Bulk Up Cloak a try a while back, and it performed a bit better than I was expecting. The Spite Protect set on stall is also cool as a way to PP stall certain Pokemon. I think sets like these open up a fair deal more depth to Corv's game, and are cool to see this late into the generation.
On one hand, its got a great typing, some nice tools in Pressure, U-Turn, ID + BP, Spite, can largely negate hazards, and has some solid MUs into some great Pokemon like Gliscor, Pecharunt, Lokix, + does decent into a few others like Valiant, Kyurem, Rocks Tusk, etc. On the other hand, its still very prone to passive damage (from Rocks + potential chip from U-Turn vs Helmet mons), struggles to make progress on its own (due to no T-Wave, Wisp, Flame Body, Knock Off, etc. + its Helmet being prone to being Knocked Off), and most of the Pokemon it checks having some ways around it (i.e. Iron Valiant can run Thunderbolt, Zamazenta can run Roar, etc.). I also think Corv is the Pokemon thats probably most hurt by Tera as a mechanic since it can limit its progress making abilities vs setup sweepers even more.
I never really thought Gholdengo was the dealbreaker for Corv like others. Sure, it blocks Defog, but its not immediately dropping Corv with most of its standard options and Corv being able to pop its Balloon is still nice for various partners like Ting-Lu and Gliscor. That said, IMO its Landorus-T MU is pretty damn bad, as Lando-T prevents Corv from recovering with Taunt and will deal a net 28% to it between Helmet chip + Rocks every time it goes for that line. There are tons of other MUs where its annoying to click U-Turn, like against Gliscor + Clef teams since the sticky barb will easily transfer to Corv. Other mons like Raging Bolt and Garg can be annoying for it depending on the situation as well. There are many Pokemon that I feel have an easier time making Progress than Corviknight, like Skarmory with Spikes + Whirlwind, Moltres / Zapdos with status + Roar, and Gliscor between Spikes, Toxic, and Knock Off.
On the flipside, I will say that Corv just has excellent defensive synergy with a lot of Pokemon. IMO, its a great partner for a lot of offensive Pokemon like Darkrai, Kyurem, Raging Bolt & Hydrappl given its ability to pivot many of these Pokemon in safely with its U-Turn + having good defensive synergy with them generally. It also works fine with several defensive mons like Clefable, Clodsire, Gliscor, since, its pressure ability + typing is nice in longer games.
I think some of the newer sets we are seeing are somewhat nice for its general viability. I gave Spdef Bulk Up Cloak a try a while back, and it performed a bit better than I was expecting. The Spite Protect set on stall is also cool as a way to PP stall certain Pokemon. I think sets like these open up a fair deal more depth to Corv's game, and are cool to see this late into the generation.
It has a good matchup vs notable problem mons for stall like Rillaboom, Meowscarada, and Ghold as well as a really good matchup vs Kingambit, and more bulk and raw damage than Talonflame while still having access to wisp. it also provides an alternate wincon and forces the other player to play more reactively by threatening a QD snowball, QD also checking setup the same way CM blissey does, which can be key role compression. Morning sun also provides recovery without creating a ground vulnerability or lessening a grass resistance. Tera is customizable to deal with future sight or whatever else. The usual set was flamethrower/fiery, wisp, QD, and morning sun
Like meow is a giga fraud, like it just misses out on kills it should be getting half the time
Like when a mon that is OU tiered has some really good UU mons who happen to be good in OU (Weavile and Tink come to mind immediately) it should probably drop
you still have to predict, probably lowkey should drop to just straight b because with the right support and circumstances it can be a big threat
I think rilla is a B rank mon straight up for how annoying it can be to use but for how threatening it can be in the right matchup
Before the 2nd DLC, I believe, entry hazards seemed to be a large point of concern. The Gliscor ban and conversation around Gholdengo and Spikes/Heavy-Duty Boots seemed to be one of the biggest topics at that time and leading up to it.
I was wondering how the hazard metagame is considered now.
From my perspective, a meta with more hazards would skew towards a more offensive tier. The way I thought of it was: More Hazards means Less Switch-ins and Less Switch-ins means a faster paced game where defensive backbones would break apart more rapidly. To combat this, teams would use Heavy-Duty Boots, which would negate hazard's effect on switching in, but when HDB are used you sacrifice the ability for another item. In some cases that is fine and makes sense anywhere. Moltres being 4x weak to rocks being a key example, but other 'mons would rather have Leftovers or something else for more longevity or utility.
Of course there is the idea that Boots vs. Lefties is based on your teams hazard control and you don't need Boots. But this generation has been known for its poor hazard control. Mainly in how restricted the spread of hazard control moves is, but also how strong the spinblockers are. (I was going to have a detailed and statistical portion here, but this forum was locked when I had the energy).
So to wrap up,
In my eyes, the abundance of hazards helps guide the meta to be more offensive(not the main factor maybe, but definitely a factor) and, from what I've seen, that isn't favorable for quite a few people. I was wondering the opinions/understanding of players better than me(most if not everyone here) on the matter of Entry Hazards.
I was wondering how the hazard metagame is considered now.
From my perspective, a meta with more hazards would skew towards a more offensive tier. The way I thought of it was: More Hazards means Less Switch-ins and Less Switch-ins means a faster paced game where defensive backbones would break apart more rapidly. To combat this, teams would use Heavy-Duty Boots, which would negate hazard's effect on switching in, but when HDB are used you sacrifice the ability for another item. In some cases that is fine and makes sense anywhere. Moltres being 4x weak to rocks being a key example, but other 'mons would rather have Leftovers or something else for more longevity or utility.
Of course there is the idea that Boots vs. Lefties is based on your teams hazard control and you don't need Boots. But this generation has been known for its poor hazard control. Mainly in how restricted the spread of hazard control moves is, but also how strong the spinblockers are. (I was going to have a detailed and statistical portion here, but this forum was locked when I had the energy).
So to wrap up,
In my eyes, the abundance of hazards helps guide the meta to be more offensive(not the main factor maybe, but definitely a factor) and, from what I've seen, that isn't favorable for quite a few people. I was wondering the opinions/understanding of players better than me(most if not everyone here) on the matter of Entry Hazards.
you've piqued my curiosity
in what world do we live in where Altaria has (or had) a stronger niche on Stall than Garganacal?
It's more that garganacl doesn't really mesh well with stall. It absolutely needs hazard removal, is incredibly knock weak and is more of a balance mon in general. Salt cure and stealth rocks are nice progress makers, but the big issue is how much of a tera hog Garg is. Stall commonly wants to save tera for specific mons like gambit, ghold and waterpon, and Garg does not mesh well with that. It can work on stall, but its difficult.
Edit: Except for Carl The Turtle, but that's cause he's cracked.
Altaria on the other hand has defog, natural cure, roost and a variety of options such as wisp, haze, perish song+fire spin and a multitude of attacks to help with mons like Heatran and glowking that might be annoying. It's not amazing on stall, but it does have a decent niche.
Edit: The VR listed is about a year old, however the new VR in the Stallcord discord server does have garganacl higher then altaria, my bad guys, forgor about that :p
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Why is meowscarada still rotting here whilst weavile, skeledirge and tinkaton are conquering UU despite having valuable niches in higher tiers, bro might be gen 9’s electivire
no ones going to address that bro said volcarona was used to check rillaboom in sun and moon
Because Meow is still actually usable, even if not particularly spectacular. It's defenitely getting more usage than many would expect, but to compare it to DPP Electivire is a ginormous stretch. Unless that was done solely for hyperbole's sake, in which case, fair enough.
Sorry, I misspoke. Meant to say Bulu, which was used for Grassy Terrain that Gen
Its usable but its not good, still debatably a noob trap mon as much as it pains me to say it
Why magnezone is the worst pokemon to use in OU (hyperbole intended)
Reason 1: Outclassed as a steel trapper
For 4 generations, magnezone managed to secure a spot at the end of each metagame as an OU mon because of it being the best legal trapper
But that has change, magnezone has found itself outclassed by the bottom of the barrel, for they have options that zone doesn’t
What all the magnet pullers that outclass zone have in common is that they are all in zeroused and two of them are unviable there
But why do they outdo mag? What makes these crapmons better?
Well first off, they have better bulk, golem may get thrashed by special moves at least it can a hit on the physical side, probopass has 150 defenses which makes it far superior at taking non super effective hits, magneton may have less bulk normally but with eviolite it can actually survive hits from kingambit, a pokemon magnezone would WANT to trap but ends up getting 2hko’d by even with defensive iron press, not to mention probopass has pain split
Secondly, Golem and probopass have better offensive presences despite pass having 75 special attack, they have rock stab (probopass can even use meteor beam) and actual coverage like ground moves with golem also having fire punch for steels
Thirdly magneton may have less special attack and the same stabs, but it has 70 speed which means it can outspeed skarm without investment and can use scarf better if it wants to
Finally, Golem and probopass have more utility outisde of magnet pull, they can get rocks up, golem has roar and rapid spin and probopass has taunt to mess up stall and bulky balance
Reason 2: steel trapping isn’t a valid niche
If you were wondering why I made the claim that pokemon without any niche in OU outclassed magnezone, its because magnezone is a pokemon without any niche in OU, all relevant steel types have ways to crush magnezone and its fellow trappers
Has a powerful focus blast that has a 30% chance of hitting
Too powerful and bulky to be trapped reliably, can easily set up and even tank a boosted iron defense
has body press and can u turn on slower sets
Has a powerful body press
Completely immune to trapping and hits too hard
Ground type with volt switch
Can troll with knock off and encore, also just a utility lead
Bulky fighting type with volt switch, can also use weaker sets as stealth rock fodder
Fire type that can trap back
Has close combat and U-turn, commonly runs max speed too
Ground type that can get a free rapid spin
Naturally strong surf that cannot easily be switched into and has flip turn
Too bulky to remove and has earth power
Has eviolite to wall and hits too hard
And every other steel type doesn’t matter enough, with some even having ways around zone too, meaning even the low ladder player’s forretress isn’t free eats
Reason 3: It has no other niche
Let me show you a non magnet pull set
Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Analytic
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
This is borderline unusable, it has no chance of surviving non resisted special moves and is constantly hiding behind its sub while spamming protect, just so it can recover hp and have a chance of actually attacking, analytic may be a mini stakeout but that doesn’t matter when your stab combo is so bad, this isn’t helped by magnezone having no coverage, therefore meaning it gets walled by electric types, its tera type is electric because any tera type is unneeded, it cannot afford to run tera blast and has no bulk which means no defensive tera, therefore it needs tera electric to boost thunderbolt (because discharge isn’t strong enough despite its para chance). It also needs so much support to work when it should be supporting its teammates
The worst part is that this is just a knock off iron crown, theres no reason to use this over crown when it provides more utility
Reason 4: Super effective moves are everywhere and Magnezone can’t handle them even with tera
If a pokemon has usable ground coverage, it will have a set running it, this means any mon running ground coverage auto checks magnezone without even trying as magnezone can’t afford running air balloon and it has no bulk (70 155 90 is straight up frail)
Here is every ou mon that hit magnezone super effectively
And thats just the pokemon ranked in OU, if I listed the viable pokemon that hit zone super effectively, we would already be on page 651!
While this is just a generalization as not every mon would run moves that slam magnezone, the fact is that only a few wouldn’t be using fire, fighting or ground moves and magnezone has no way around those moves outside of tera which can be used on other pokemon that use the tera slot more efficently like kingambit who has priority, better resistances and actual bulk without the unpredictability of tera , making magnezone a tera hog
Conclusion
I’d say magnezone needs to go and flip burgers, but the grill would hit it super effectively
Reason 1: Outclassed as a steel trapper
For 4 generations, magnezone managed to secure a spot at the end of each metagame as an OU mon because of it being the best legal trapper
But that has change, magnezone has found itself outclassed by the bottom of the barrel, for they have options that zone doesn’t
What all the magnet pullers that outclass zone have in common is that they are all in zeroused and two of them are unviable there
But why do they outdo mag? What makes these crapmons better?
Well first off, they have better bulk, golem may get thrashed by special moves at least it can a hit on the physical side, probopass has 150 defenses which makes it far superior at taking non super effective hits, magneton may have less bulk normally but with eviolite it can actually survive hits from kingambit, a pokemon magnezone would WANT to trap but ends up getting 2hko’d by even with defensive iron press, not to mention probopass has pain split
Secondly, Golem and probopass have better offensive presences despite pass having 75 special attack, they have rock stab (probopass can even use meteor beam) and actual coverage like ground moves with golem also having fire punch for steels
Thirdly magneton may have less special attack and the same stabs, but it has 70 speed which means it can outspeed skarm without investment and can use scarf better if it wants to
Finally, Golem and probopass have more utility outisde of magnet pull, they can get rocks up, golem has roar and rapid spin and probopass has taunt to mess up stall and bulky balance
Reason 2: steel trapping isn’t a valid niche
If you were wondering why I made the claim that pokemon without any niche in OU outclassed magnezone, its because magnezone is a pokemon without any niche in OU, all relevant steel types have ways to crush magnezone and its fellow trappers
Has a powerful focus blast that has a 30% chance of hitting Too powerful and bulky to be trapped reliably, can easily set up and even tank a boosted iron defense has body press and can u turn on slower sets Has a powerful body press Completely immune to trapping and hits too hard Ground type with volt switch Can troll with knock off and encore, also just a utility lead Bulky fighting type with volt switch, can also use weaker sets as stealth rock fodder Fire type that can trap back Has close combat and U-turn, commonly runs max speed too Ground type that can get a free rapid spin Naturally strong surf that cannot easily be switched into and has flip turn Too bulky to remove and has earth power Has eviolite to wall and hits too hardAnd every other steel type doesn’t matter enough, with some even having ways around zone too, meaning even the low ladder player’s forretress isn’t free eats
Reason 3: It has no other niche
Let me show you a non magnet pull set
Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Analytic
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
This is borderline unusable, it has no chance of surviving non resisted special moves and is constantly hiding behind its sub while spamming protect, just so it can recover hp and have a chance of actually attacking, analytic may be a mini stakeout but that doesn’t matter when your stab combo is so bad, this isn’t helped by magnezone having no coverage, therefore meaning it gets walled by electric types, its tera type is electric because any tera type is unneeded, it cannot afford to run tera blast and has no bulk which means no defensive tera, therefore it needs tera electric to boost thunderbolt (because discharge isn’t strong enough despite its para chance). It also needs so much support to work when it should be supporting its teammates
The worst part is that this is just a knock off iron crown, theres no reason to use this over crown when it provides more utility
Reason 4: Super effective moves are everywhere and Magnezone can’t handle them even with tera
If a pokemon has usable ground coverage, it will have a set running it, this means any mon running ground coverage auto checks magnezone without even trying as magnezone can’t afford running air balloon and it has no bulk (70 155 90 is straight up frail)
Here is every ou mon that hit magnezone super effectively
And thats just the pokemon ranked in OU, if I listed the viable pokemon that hit zone super effectively, we would already be on page 651!
While this is just a generalization as not every mon would run moves that slam magnezone, the fact is that only a few wouldn’t be using fire, fighting or ground moves and magnezone has no way around those moves outside of tera which can be used on other pokemon that use the tera slot more efficently like kingambit who has priority, better resistances and actual bulk without the unpredictability of tera , making magnezone a tera hog
Conclusion
I’d say magnezone needs to go and flip burgers, but the grill would hit it super effectively
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^ I disagree. Magnezone is bad, but the main reaosn for that is that every Steel can Tera and avoid the trap. It still has some niches:
Skarmory and Pdef Corviknight actually fold to Specs Zone, unless they Tera.
Kingambit folds to Iron Defense unless it Teras, though its likely that Magnezone has to Tera too to reliably trap it.
Iron Clown does smash Magnezone, but its Specs set has to play very carefully, its forced to use Volt Switch or Focus Blast, otherwise it gets trapped.
Tinkaton gets completely humillated by Zone, its the easiest target. Magnezone doesn,t care about losing its item, as long as it traps Tinkaton and either kills it or forces it to Tera (which is a big opportunity cost, Tinkaton is not a good Tera Mon).
Also, that Analytic set is certainly bad, but Specs + Analytic actually does respectable damage to everything if you predict well enough:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Tera Steel Magnezone Steel Beam vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 382-450 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zone is indeed bad, but he is still the better Magnet Puller, even if that niche isn,t good this Gen.
Also, speaking of Alolan Golem, just like Alolan Muk, it would have been extremely heat in SS OU, a shame it never got released last Gen. Sdef Corvi + Scarf Alolan Golem = Heatran and Magnezone are dead.
Skarmory and Pdef Corviknight actually fold to Specs Zone, unless they Tera.
Kingambit folds to Iron Defense unless it Teras, though its likely that Magnezone has to Tera too to reliably trap it.
Iron Clown does smash Magnezone, but its Specs set has to play very carefully, its forced to use Volt Switch or Focus Blast, otherwise it gets trapped.
Tinkaton gets completely humillated by Zone, its the easiest target. Magnezone doesn,t care about losing its item, as long as it traps Tinkaton and either kills it or forces it to Tera (which is a big opportunity cost, Tinkaton is not a good Tera Mon).
Also, that Analytic set is certainly bad, but Specs + Analytic actually does respectable damage to everything if you predict well enough:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Tera Steel Magnezone Steel Beam vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 382-450 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zone is indeed bad, but he is still the better Magnet Puller, even if that niche isn,t good this Gen.
Also, speaking of Alolan Golem, just like Alolan Muk, it would have been extremely heat in SS OU, a shame it never got released last Gen. Sdef Corvi + Scarf Alolan Golem = Heatran and Magnezone are dead.
ah, the 4 tapus of alola.
unfortunately, there has been a lapse in your judgement
Choice specs magnezone may seem like a diamond that has dusted to the point of being confused for plastic, but it is a burden upon its very greatest allies and can guarantee a loss of elo and sanity due to its lack of speed or ability to survive any non resisted hit, this is what band golem is for
the fact that it needs so much just to leave a lasting dent upon stall even compared to its buried brethren proves that it is capable of nothing, that everything it wants to do is either something it does worse than even the weakest creatures we could possibly utilise or something that is entirely inutile without even a nanosecond resembling a slight glimmer of value in this endless circle of crystals and stones we call a metagame
Furthermore, its only niche is downright Sisyphean, as specs may threaten skarmory and certain corviknight sets, but that leaves it struggling to reliably take down tinkaton and without the chance of even looking a iron crown or kingambit in the face without its very core shivering so hard that it nearly rips itself out just to escape what it should be stopping
As for iron press, it may have a chance of doing something of value in the anti kingambit effort, but it shall face immense struggle doing anything against the brds without electric stab or reliably stopping tinkaton
The only people using magnezone are not people looking for a hole to fill within their structures, but rather those who dig within nu for every pokemon trapped there just to find zone, digging past all the copper just to find a little pebble that was once apart of a mountain, for there is no niche, no role, no home, it has nothing but its slow and rightfully painful fall below tiering as a whole
All of this of course, is simply for the sake of muddy hyperbole.
Also, theres nothing stopping you from using Sdef Corvi + Scarf Alolan Golem right now, its still heat
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Can you speak in real english bro? It's actually tilting me reading this.
Me too. But it might just be my migraine.
Why're you guys acting like it was Shakespearean English or something, seems perfectly understandable to me. Also, Magnezone sucks because it only does something like 10% of the time, the rest you're facing either fat which can just wall you with whatever, or HO which can easily kill you because of your low speed and bad defenses.
Poor Magnezone ;-;. Was considered one of the best trappers for OU since Gen 4 and now due to Tera and power creep its once good stats can't keep up
This is why Arena Trap and Shadow Tag need to be unbanned. The ability to trap certain threats is key to a healthy meta.*
--
Rillaboom @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 160 SpD / 92 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Grassy Glide
- Taunt
Theoretically beats stall. Very unique mon due to its passive healing, sort of like Gliscor. I think more creative Rillaboom sets are key to revitalizing this classic mon.
*joke
Here is another Rillaboom set really good against stall, be prepared everyone it's a deep cut and very new innovation
Rillaboom @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Knock Off
- U-Turn
- Grassy Glide
tbh I forgot about cb. yeah rilla has only two sets pretty much. band and extender.
araquanid the goat of webs
better setter than ribombee, can switch in several times or takes out the rockers, water bubble makes you hit harder than ribombee ever could with moonblast, tanky enough to make effective use of custap, and webs is a good enough archetype because there are a lot of strong not so fast pokemon and it messes with speed boosted paradox forms so you can opt out of the speed arms race