Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [PALAFIN RETEST]

[Moisture99]

You know it's okay to defend Gen9, but what is with the desire some of you have for taking pot shots at gen8 like it's a bad meta? People like it, more people do like it now, and it's really silly. The metas are different.

I agree nothing really stands out as overly broken but come on.

Yeah, I do prefer gen 9 over gen 8 because making progress in the latter isn't something I personally enjoy. However, I also wasn't taking pot shots at it, but rather stating a fact about how different it is from gen 9 in order to make a point about how people's standards need to change. It is quite a balanced metagame, and while it's a bit too safe/slow for me, it's totally fine if u or others enjoy it.

Zamazenta is the most problematic defensive Pokemon in the history of the OU tier. The three things that normally limit defensive Pokemon, low speed, low attacking stats, and/or a low defensive stat, are not present in Zamazenta, in fact, it has the opposite of all three and the coverage to beat all of its checks. To win with Zamazenta, all you need to do is remove a team’s special attackers, bring it in, and click ID once or twice before BPing the enemy to death.

You’d think that with the Kyurem ban people would target the other 660 BST box legend in the tier but it seems like a lot of people truly do believe that defensive mons can never be broken.

You can't just list the characteristics of a mon and act like its brokenness is self-evident. We already know zamazenta is fat, fast, and has decent coverage. This sort of description/analysis doesn't mean anything unless you can demonstrate how it relates to the actual metagame.
Zamazenta has absolutely no shortage of counterplay, and most teams will naturally fit 2-3 checks to zamazenta without even trying because mono fighting is a garbage offensive typing. E.g. Any offense team can slap on landorus t + bold ghold and never lose to ironpress unless crazy hax.

'all you need to do is remove a team's special attackers'

First of all, this isn't even true - there are still physical attackers that can beat/trade favourably with zamazenta such as okidogi, encore dnite, helmet lando (if ur not already ep), and random tera ghost on mons such as gambit. Also, the premise that special attackers beat zama isn't even entirely true? Yeah, in general, special attackers fare better against Zamazenta than physical attackers but you can't just say anything that uses special attacks is a counter. If anything, this demonstrates a lack of understanding of what counterplay to zamazenta should look like.

Second, why are you acting like it is trivial to just delete your opponent's special attackers?
Third, ur saying that if your opponent sets up their win condition to win... it wins?

I think it's not even close to banworthy, but it's not absurd to think zamazenta should be suspected. However, your argument is just completely unconvincing. With your BST based reasoning, maybe we should ban Hoopa too lol.

 

[June Heat]

Anyone find it interesting during the Kyurem suspect the change in perception some of the qualified base has regarding Kingambit? Seems like people are starting to think, or at the very least being vocal about it, that Kingambit is in fact a problematic Pokemon. Something to the tune of “why are we talking about X when Kingambit is allowed in the tier?”

Idk, I’ve always held the opinion that Gambit, Zama, and Ghold have been holding back the tier for at least a year now. Let the meta settle for sure y’all just had back to back bans. Though once the dust settle maybe look at something like Kingambit rather than Gliscor, which is cancer tbf.

 

[Moyashi]

Yeah, I do prefer gen 9 over gen 8 because making progress in the latter isn't something I personally enjoy. However, I also wasn't taking pot shots at it, but rather stating a fact about how different it is from gen 9 in order to make a point about how people's standards need to change. It is quite a balanced metagame, and while it's a bit too safe/slow for me, it's totally fine if u or others enjoy it.

Fair!

Zamazenta is (at least one of) the most problematic defensive Pokemon in the history of the OU tier. The three things that normally limit defensive Pokemon, low speed, low attacking stats, and/or a low defensive stat, are not present in Zamazenta, in fact, it has the opposite of all three and the coverage to beat all of its checks. To win with Zamazenta, all you need to do is remove a team’s special attackers, bring it in, and click ID once or twice before BPing the enemy to death. It can easily Tera to avoid status or flip a matchup and has the natural bulk to live basically any unboosted supereffective attack and a lot of boosted supereffective attacks as well, and force good matchups with Roar. “B-but it stops the tier from folding to Kingambit” now it’s my turn to say the line: “broken checks broken is not tier policy” (Gambit isn’t broken anyways, most people agree that the tier has long since adapted to its presence and stretched the upper limits of its rather low set variety)

Something something yet another Tera abuser.

You’d think that with the Kyurem ban people would target the other 660 BST box legend in the tier but it seems like a lot of people truly do believe that defensive mons can never be broken.

Zama isn't really a "defensive" pokemon in the first place. It's an offensive pokemon with defensive qualities that lets it blanket check threats for its time, while it also can act as a threatening wincon (and speed control depending on team). Beyond that, you act as though it's some brainless sweeper that goes crazy super easily, but it's actually one of the tier's most nuanced and skill based pokemon. There's a lot of things that have to happen on average to let Zama sweep, as just about any team is well prepared for it with stops that prevent it from just clicking BP. There's no shortage of good mons that hold it off. Glowking and Zap/Molt which together ensure it can never sweep while they're around. Landorus-T and Gholdengo (bulky), Dragapult (wisp), Tera Ghost as a choice, Sinistcha, not to mention niche but viable options like Okidogi.

Also what does its BST have anything to do with anything? Pro Ban Kyurem players didn't care about its BST at all and it's not helping your argument to insinuate they might have.

Lastly, and no offense is meant here, but you seem to complain about defensive mons a lot. Gliscor (who you weirdly censor its name like it's the devil), Garg, Clod. It seems like there's a bias in your comments. Just a bit.

 

[UltraSword]

Zamazenta is (at least one of) the most problematic defensive Pokemon in the history of the OU tier. The three things that normally limit defensive Pokemon, low speed, low attacking stats, and/or a low defensive stat, are not present in Zamazenta, in fact, it has the opposite of all three and the coverage to beat all of its checks. To win with Zamazenta, all you need to do is remove a team’s special attackers, bring it in, and click ID once or twice before BPing the enemy to death. It can easily Tera to avoid status or flip a matchup and has the natural bulk to live basically any unboosted supereffective attack and a lot of boosted supereffective attacks as well, and force good matchups with Roar. “B-but it stops the tier from folding to Kingambit” now it’s my turn to say the line: “broken checks broken is not tier policy” (Gambit isn’t broken anyways, most people agree that the tier has long since adapted to its presence and stretched the upper limits of its rather low set variety)

Something something yet another Tera abuser.

You’d think that with the Kyurem ban people would target the other 660 BST box legend in the tier but it seems like a lot of people truly do believe that defensive mons can never be broken.

Calm mind hatterene when it sees zama:

No but seriously there are plenty of counters to zama and zama is very vulnerable to statis

 

[Insolence]

Anyone find it interesting during the Kyurem suspect the change in perception some of the qualified base has regarding Kingambit? Seems like people are starting to think, or at the very least being vocal about it, that Kingambit is in fact a problematic Pokemon. Something to the tune of “why are we talking about X when Kingambit is allowed in the tier?”

Idk, I’ve always held the opinion that Gambit, Zama, and Ghold have been holding back the tier for at least a year now. Let the meta settle for sure y’all just had back to back bans. Though once the dust settle maybe look at something like Kingambit rather than Gliscor, which is cancer tbf.

They were simply drawing a comparison to counter one of the major arguments for the ban side, which was that broken shouldn't check broken.

We have so many examples of Kingambit or Zama getting an inch and taking a mile. Look at recent SCL replays, the number of games where Zama/Gambit get a single free turn and end the game illustrates this, yet we know they all have splashable counterplay and provide valuable defensive utility, so we don't consider them broken. It's less so an argument that Kingambit is broken and needs to be banned, and more that we also need to consider the positive aspects that each 'mon brings to the table.

 

[JTD783]

As the meta settles post-Kyurem, I'm interested in Amoonguss' potential. I anticipate that Gliscor spam will move the meta toward bulkier hazard-stacking teams in the short term, which Amoonguss fits into far more comfortably than it does on more offensive builds. In addition, Iron Crown and Tinkaton will likely grow less popular since their role in checking Kyurem is no longer relevant. Amoonguss doesn't deal with them too well so it will appreciate encountering them less often.

Let's be honest, the meta will always have a place for a boots regenerator mon. Beyond that, I think Amoonguss is unexplored, largely in part to the Sleep Clause's expansion killing Spore. It still has plenty to offer as it checks or counters Ogrepon-W, Clefable, Iron Valiant, Dondozo, Meowscarada (except Triple Axel), Primarina, Rillaboom, and Zamazenta, while pivoting around Enamorus and Raging Bolt. It also absorbs Toxic Spikes.

Compared to Hydrapple (which is cool too), Amoonguss can deal with a wider range of mons, albeit being offensively weaker. However, Amoonguss is still annoying to deal with for many teams: Sludge Bomb annoys most of the tier and many prominent attackers are punished by Foul Play and/or Clear Smog. Stun Spore is another valuable tool for disruption; never disrespect the yellow magic. Worry Seed is very niche but it's genuinely useful against Gliscor, Garganacl, and opposing regen mons. I forget how it interacts with Good as Gold.

Amoonguss struggles to make progress against Corviknight and Galarian Slowking and gets scared out by Iron Moth and Cinderace. Gholdengo and Garganacl are good options for dealing with them, respectively. As for Gholdengo, you chip it a little with Foul Play, which pops Air Balloon if it has that, force it to take rocks and/or spikes damage, then switch out.

 

[June Heat]

They were simply drawing a comparison to counter one of the major arguments for the ban side, which was that broken shouldn't check broken.

We have so many examples of Kingambit or Zama getting an inch and taking a mile. Look at recent SCL replays, the number of games where Zama/Gambit get a single free turn and end the game illustrates this, yet we know they all have splashable counterplay and provide valuable defensive utility, so we don't consider them broken. It's less so an argument that Kingambit is broken and needs to be banned, and more that we also need to consider the positive aspects that each 'mon brings to the table.

Fair enough, I can definitely see that as the correct interpretation of what was said.

That being said, I kinda hate that notion. People acting like this is an early Gen where we have to keep a broken/problematic element of the game for fear of collapse. Maybe that’s true. It really could be the case that Gen 9 OU would die on the spot without these Pokemon. I doubt it, but at the same time I’m currently trying to get back in Gen 9 OU so I definitely fall into the uninformed so what do I know. Kingambit is bullshit though.

 

[EpicGuy321]

As the meta settles post-Kyurem, I'm interested in Amoonguss' potential. I anticipate that Gliscor spam will move the meta toward bulkier hazard-stacking teams in the short term, which Amoonguss fits into far more comfortably than it does on more offensive builds. In addition, Iron Crown and Tinkaton will likely grow less popular since their role in checking Kyurem is no longer relevant. Amoonguss doesn't deal with them too well so it will appreciate encountering them less often.

Let's be honest, the meta will always have a place for a boots regenerator mon. Beyond that, I think Amoonguss is unexplored, largely in part to the Sleep Clause's expansion killing Spore. It still has plenty to offer as it checks or counters Ogrepon-W, Clefable, Iron Valiant, Dondozo, Meowscarada (except Triple Axel), Primarina, Rillaboom, and Zamazenta, while pivoting around Enamorus and Raging Bolt. It also absorbs Toxic Spikes.

Compared to Hydrapple (which is cool too), Amoonguss can deal with a wider range of mons, albeit being offensively weaker. However, Amoonguss is still annoying to deal with for many teams: Sludge Bomb annoys most of the tier and many prominent attackers are punished by Foul Play and/or Clear Smog. Stun Spore is another valuable tool for disruption; never disrespect the yellow magic. Worry Seed is very niche but it's genuinely useful against Gliscor, Garganacl, and opposing regen mons. I forget how it interacts with Good as Gold.

Amoonguss struggles to make progress against Corviknight and Galarian Slowking and gets scared out by Iron Moth and Cinderace. Gholdengo and Garganacl are good options for dealing with them, respectively. As for Gholdengo, you chip it a little with Foul Play, which pops Air Balloon if it has that, force it to take rocks and/or spikes damage, then switch out.

if the meta moves toward bulky hazard stack, Amoongus won’t be good. Two mons you listed: Gliscor itself, and Gholdengo. They just don’t care about Amoongus. It is just way too passive and isn’t that bulky.

Also, I don’t think you can just say it counters Meow minus Taxel when it would absolutely hate getting Knocked (and most Meow are Taxel anyway), especially in a hazard stack meta that you’re expecting. Also, Meow is pretty prominent in hazard stack styles, no? Meow hazard stacks and semistalls were all the rage in early DLC2 meta.

Tinkaton also probably won’t go down in usage that much. Beyond Kyurem, it also matches up well into Darkrai which is huge, and can TWave anything except ground types (which tend to be easy to lure and chip or outright eliminate).

I think Hydrapple, while having a different (and honestly mostly just worse) defensive profile, is just better than Amoonguss due to not being passive.

 

[Moyashi]

Also, Meow is pretty prominent in hazard stack styles, no? Meow hazard stacks and semistalls were all the rage in early DLC2 meta.

Early it was but it's nowhere near that prominent anymore and isn't that great atm.

As for the idea of Crown/Tinkaton dropping in usage post Kyurem which I've seen a few times posted after the dragon was banned, while they lose one major target to check they still match up well into enough of the metagame. Crown in particular has a great profile for the tier beyond Kyurem and it performs well even in non Kyurem match ups. Frankly I don't understand where the notion is coming from. It's a all around great mon in the tier and it only gets a little worse just because of that ban.

 

[Yang Liu]

Since Gouging Fire and Kyurem were banned, I wanted to experiment a bit with having Roaring Moon take their place as a DD sweeper with a ton of set variety.

Here's some example sets I've been played with, that have some success in the 1700s - 1800s on ladder.

Roaring Moon @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 220 HP / 144 Atk / 112 Def / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Knock Off
- Tera Blast

Here are examples games: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2214743657
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2214765438-vfg9ubpwropjtjclk4qook7siu4bx5lpw

Another is Gouging Fire at home:

Roaring Moon @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Breaking Swipe
- Knock Off
- Dragon Dance
- Roost

[Gen 9] OU: desert97 vs. orborborb - Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2214635267

An of course, you have the standard Booster+Acro set. Even that has variety, with the last moveslot being any of Iron Head / EQ / Taunt, which all have somewhat different counters, and Band on sun teams.

I'm wondering if everyone isn't being creative enough with trying to use moon in different ways.

 

[UltraSword]

Since Gouging Fire and Kyurem were banned, I wanted to experiment a bit with having Roaring Moon take their place as a DD sweeper with a ton of set variety.

Here's some example sets I've been played with, that have some success in the 1700s - 1800s on ladder.

Roaring Moon @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 220 HP / 144 Atk / 112 Def / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Knock Off
- Tera Blast

Here is an example game: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2214743657

Another is Gouging Fire at home:

Roaring Moon @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Breaking Swipe
- Knock Off
- Dragon Dance
- Roost

[Gen 9] OU: desert97 vs. orborborb - Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2214635267

An of course, you have the standard Booster+Acro set. Even that has variety, with the last moveslot being any of Iron Head / EQ / Taunt, which all have somewhat different counters, and Band on sun teams.

I'm wondering if everyone isn't being creative enough with trying to use moon in different ways.

I applaud your creativity but the thing about roaring moon is without boost energy it is far less powerful and it loves acrobatics because of that. I am not saying those sets are bad by any means I just don't think they are as good as booster energy with acrobatics. However I am all for being proved wrong in this scenario so if it works that is really cool

 

[Bold School]

Since Gouging Fire and Kyurem were banned, I wanted to experiment a bit with having Roaring Moon take their place as a DD sweeper with a ton of set variety.

Here's some example sets I've been played with, that have some success in the 1700s - 1800s on ladder.

Roaring Moon @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 220 HP / 144 Atk / 112 Def / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Knock Off
- Tera Blast

Here are examples games: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2214743657
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2214765438-vfg9ubpwropjtjclk4qook7siu4bx5lpw

Another is Gouging Fire at home:

Roaring Moon @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Breaking Swipe
- Knock Off
- Dragon Dance
- Roost

[Gen 9] OU: desert97 vs. orborborb - Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2214635267

An of course, you have the standard Booster+Acro set. Even that has variety, with the last moveslot being any of Iron Head / EQ / Taunt, which all have somewhat different counters, and Band on sun teams.

I'm wondering if everyone isn't being creative enough with trying to use moon in different ways.

Yes, people aren't really being creative enough with Moon overall. Good job trying to think outside of the box. But also, I see a few potential flaws with the sets.

I'll start with items. You are going to probably want a different item than Leftovers. My advice would be to boost the Defense instead to avoid a lot of priority RKers. Grassy Seed is really good on Roaring Moon, especially if you want a set with a bit more survivability. Kee Berry is a not as good version of it that could be made to work with a good defensive Tera like Fairy or Steel.

Now about your sets. Tera Fairy with TB and Knock Off is generally great. While I appreciate you trying to make a bulky set with a good defensive Tera in Fairy, I don't think a low speed substitute set is the way. You are gonna want some speed to get that off, no? You might want a different move like Roost (in conjunction with a defense boosting item) for this kind of defensive set. Or, you could make the set more offensive with the Sub. Sub is not a bad idea, but the synergy is kinda lacking.

On the Tera Poison set, this is another really interesting attempt. My main concern is you have nothing for Fairy types, which already counter Breaking Swipe. I feel like any mon that goes Tera Fairy can just sit on you. You might want to try Tera Blast Poison here. Even though Knock Off is generally better, I think this set handicapped by the Fairy weakness. This does make you more vulnerable to Steel types, but at least they aren't immune to Breaking Swipes. So you can theoretically wear them down over time.

I applaud your creativity but the thing about roaring moon is without boost energy it is far less powerful and it loves acrobatics because of that. I am not saying those sets are bad by any means I just don't think they are as good as booster energy with acrobatics. However I am all for being proved wrong in this scenario so if it works that is really cool

The conventional wisdom on Roaring Moon has been lagging behind its actual full capability since it got unbanned. It doesn't need to run BE Tera Flying on every set. Not even close. For Tera, it can run quite a few. Some standouts are Ground, Fairy, Dragon, Steel, and Fire. This is by no means the limit, though.

A bit more in general on items for Moon, not just for you, but for anybody reading this. I'll start with BE. Booster Energy Attack is usually better than Speed for most sets besides the Tera Flying Acrobatics set, which can run both. This is especially true if you are running base 80 power moves like Tera Blast or Iron Head. Moon wants power, particularly if you are running it like a glass cannon. However, it gets that same power and more by getting a second DD up. BE attack only increases the power by 1.3 where as each stage of increased attack goes up by 0.5. So using utility or bulk to get off an extra DD isn't necesarrily inferior. Same with using an item like Choice Band for more immediate power than BE attack, with various trade offs for each item.

BE is also specifically an offensive item on Moon. There are also other offensive items like Choice Band and Loaded Dice for Scale Shot. Then there are defensive items such as Grassy Seed that can actually be really good on it because it already has over 100 base HP and special defense. Furthermore, you can make the priority RK a lot tougher since most of those moves are physical. Assault Vest is maybe possible with Moon's sneaky good special defense, but I have not tested that one yet.

For other non-BE items, the biggest consideration is you want to counter something RM has a potential issue with. Like Lum Berry for Burns and other status or Clear Amulet just to mess up Lando-T. (Though Sub could do that) I suppose a defensive item like Grassy Seed could also qualify as countering a problem.

 

[Achohermano]

Tbh, while Iron Crown was indeed a good check to Kyurem (same with Tinkaton with a balloon), it's not like that's all that they do, or they wouldn't have been able to be so used. They have both solid utility outside of the Kyurem MU that will make them still really strong after Kyurem's ban.

--> Mold Breaker sets can setup rocks in front of Hatterene and can status both Gholdengo and Garganacl. Pickpocket balloon Knock Off sets can ruin stuff like boots Moltres really easily to ease teammates like Weavile, Meowscarada, Zamazenta, Booster Great Tusk, Physical IVal etcetera. Has Giganton Hammer for strong neutral damage and Ice Hammer for Gliscor and Landorus. Also has utility like Encore.

--> Insane aganist Glimmora (deniying this Pokémon is deniying half of the ladder's strategies XD) and brings a lot of utility to a team with Psychic Noise + Pivot in Volt Switch + Psychic Noise to punish Pokémon that try to heal. It's not fragile at all and it can take any hit at least once for example. I think that boosting sets can be more used as people have to respect AV / specs variants

 

[Yveltyyy]

has anyone ever experimented and seen success with unorthodox bu sets? like for bu tusk i only ever see spin/headlong/spinner but i feel like there's so much more that can be experimented with. like i do understand that it's generally matchup fishy but tusk can turn the tables on most of it's checks with some theorizing in the builder. like, for example:

: tusk absolutely bodies corv and balloon gholdie with a surprise temper flare after they try to switch in on headlong or spin, also tusk benefits greatly from temper flare because of tusk loving tera fire to escape burn

: rock slide hurts both of the rng birds, more molt than zap, but zap still is a guaranteed 2hko after +1 and can't switch in safely


while that being said, i do understand why the standard set is the way it is, the utility of slamming , and with ice spinner and the speed boost and hazard removal of spin is very valuable and pretty hard to give up, and most of these moves don't do much outside of these very specific matchups, however, id like to see if someone has succeeded with one of these sets or a different unusual set

 

[Magcargo]

Yeah, I do prefer gen 9 over gen 8 because making progress in the latter isn't something I personally enjoy. However, I also wasn't taking pot shots at it, but rather stating a fact about how different it is from gen 9 in order to make a point about how people's standards need to change. It is quite a balanced metagame, and while it's a bit too safe/slow for me, it's totally fine if u or others enjoy it.

You can't just list the characteristics of a mon and act like its brokenness is self-evident. We already know zamazenta is fat, fast, and has decent coverage. This sort of description/analysis doesn't mean anything unless you can demonstrate how it relates to the actual metagame.
Zamazenta has absolutely no shortage of counterplay, and most teams will naturally fit 2-3 checks to zamazenta without even trying because mono fighting is a garbage offensive typing. E.g. Any offense team can slap on landorus t + bold ghold and never lose to ironpress unless crazy hax.

'all you need to do is remove a team's special attackers'

First of all, this isn't even true - there are still physical attackers that can beat/trade favourably with zamazenta such as okidogi, encore dnite, helmet lando (if ur not already ep), and random tera ghost on mons such as gambit. Also, the premise that special attackers beat zama isn't even entirely true? Yeah, in general, special attackers fare better against Zamazenta than physical attackers but you can't just say anything that uses special attacks is a counter. If anything, this demonstrates a lack of understanding of what counterplay to zamazenta should look like.

Second, why are you acting like it is trivial to just delete your opponent's special attackers?
Third, ur saying that if your opponent sets up their win condition to win... it wins?

I think it's not even close to banworthy, but it's not absurd to think zamazenta should be suspected. However, your argument is just completely unconvincing. With your BST based reasoning, maybe we should ban Hoopa too lol.

Idk if other feel this way, but in 8 it felt a lot easier to make teams with extremely flimsy / weak defensive backbones. Yeah progress making in 8 could be awkward for sure, but the 8 metagame being centered so much around regen / Knock Off / Toxic also created a weirdly passive metagame that also made it hard to include stuff like a Ghost resist onto teams. Usually the easiest Ghost "resist" to fit onto teans were Spdef Chomp, Spdef Lando, and Spdef Heatran which had issues vs the Toxic / Knock Off Spam. In 8, I also found it pretty easy to get cheesed by various wincons, whether it be Kartana, Weav, or Cloyster, due to a lack of resist. Although, I will admit the wincons in 8 like weavile also felt extremely inconsistent. Regardless this forced interesting confessions like colbur berry Slowking-G onto teams.

I actually appreciate how much easier it is to check stuff in 9 comparatively. You don't have to go out of your way to include a Ghost resist with strong mons like Garg, Kingambit, and Ting-Lu, defensive Tera helps keep some annoying Pokémon like Roaring Moon better in-line, & the offensive threats this gen feel more consistent than they did in 8, while also having more defensive utility. Most of the cool tech in 8 to check stuff like Colbur Gking (or Colbur Ghold in my case) works great to lure shit like Kingambit, Weav, Darkrai, etc.in particular, I love how MUs aren't decided on preview as much this generation as they could be in 8 (though it still can be a feature with a few cheap mons).

 

[UltraSword]

Well boys you know what time it is. This is the 5th edition of The Random Mons Of OU. You know the drill whoever dms me a pokemon that is ru or above and isn't ubers will have their pokemon be talked about. Please tell me in the dm if you want to be credited

 

[ShizuOsaka]

Late to the Zama conversation, but yeah, I still think it's a banworthy mon.
Sure, you do have tons of checks that you can use against it (Gliscor, Moltres, Glowking, Pult...), but that's what you can do in a vaccuum, when it doesn't turn into a different type. You are going to burn it with Moltres? Not if it tera fire. You want to Roar phasing it? Be careful, it may Stone Edge ya. Crunch and Heavy Slam can deal with the types that it struggles against, or Substitute can be used to deal with status attempts.

As you can see, yes, it has 4MSS problem. However, I still feel this mon is one of the prime examples of Gen 9 matchup fishing mon, because just one bad call and you may see it snowballing out of control. "Mono fighting is a bad defensive / offensive typing" is only true if you account for a metagame that your Pokemon cannot turn into a different type to completely flip the matchup.

There's no shortage of good mons that hold it off. Glowking and Zap/Molt which together ensure it can never sweep while they're around. Landorus-T and Gholdengo (bulky), Dragapult (wisp), Tera Ghost as a choice, Sinistcha, not to mention niche but viable options like Okidogi.

The only mon that I can find consistently checking Zamn is Hex Ghold. The rest always loses to a certain set, and chance that while laddering, you may run into some of those stuffs.

With your BST based reasoning, maybe we should ban Hoopa too lol.

I mean, while BST is not everything, Zama has a good base spread that allows it to do whatever it wants to adapt to the metagame, unlike Hoopa-U.

 

[ant4456]

Idk if other feel this way, but in 8 it felt a lot easier to make teams with extremely flimsy / weak defensive backbones. Yeah progress making in 8 could be awkward for sure, but the 8 metagame being centered so much around regen / Knock Off / Toxic also created a weirdly passive metagame that also made it hard to include stuff like a Ghost resist onto teams. Usually the easiest Ghost "resist" to fit onto teans were Spdef Chomp, Spdef Lando, and Spdef Heatran which had issues vs the Toxic / Knock Off Spam. In 8, I also found it pretty easy to get cheesed by various wincons, whether it be Kartana, Weav, or Cloyster, due to a lack of resist. Although, I will admit the wincons in 8 like weavile also felt extremely inconsistent. Regardless this forced interesting confessions like colbur berry Slowking-G onto teams.

I actually appreciate how much easier it is to check stuff in 9 comparatively. You don't have to go out of your way to include a Ghost resist with strong mons like Garg, Kingambit, and Ting-Lu, defensive Tera helps keep some annoying Pokémon like Roaring Moon better in-line, & the offensive threats this gen feel more consistent than they did in 8, while also having more defensive utility. Most of the cool tech in 8 to check stuff like Colbur Gking (or Colbur Ghold in my case) works great to lure shit like Kingambit, Weav, Darkrai, etc.in particular, I love how MUs aren't decided on preview as much this generation as they could be in 8 (though it still can be a feature with a few cheap mons).

This is a CRAZY take.

Kartana:

-Dragapult
-Tornadus
-Zapdos
-Toxapex
-Corviknight
-Dragonite
-Buzzwole
-Volcarona
-Skarmory
-Tangrowth

And more nicher stuff, such as:

-Celesteela
-Kommo-o
-Mandibuzz
-Amoongus


Weavile:

-Flame Body Heatran
-Ferrothorn
-Urshifu
-Toxapex
-Tapu Fini
-Skarmory
-Ninetales Alola
-Buzzwole
-Scarfers like Kartana

Nicher:

-Keldeo
-Primarina
-Azumarill
-Scizor

Cloyster:

-Ferrothorn
-Rillaboom
-Toxapex
-Tapu Fini
-Rotom Wash
-Slowbro

Dragapult:

-SpDef Heatran
-Tornadus
-SpDef Corv
-Tyranitar
-Blissey
-Clefable
-Weavile
-Toxapex

Nicher:

-Mandibuzz
-Bisharp
-Zeraora
-Scarfers! In general!


Sure, not all of these are 100% easy clap counter answers, but you can easily run a few Pokemon that give direct counterplay to a lot of offensive threats. Also, this was from a cursory glance at SSPL and viability rankings, using most common sets. Gen 8 is a good generation to use lower-tier Pokemon and also to just run techs.

Gen 8 is also a tier with good offensive cores too, it's literally the Sword and Shield tier: You have good offensive threats and also good defensive checks, and also good in-between threats/walls; there is set variety but a well-built team will always have good counterplay and ways to play around almost any matchup. Cloyster is annoying, but it's not really that common; in fact, if I didn't miss something, Cloyster was not brought to SSPL II a single time. Like a single. 0% usage.

How many Gen 8 games do you watch that are actually fucking won on preview lmao. To say that Gen 9 offensive threats have more concrete checks when it's a Tera gen and you have some of the most min-maxxed Pokemon of all-time is insane. Wow, SWSH Kartana seems crazy? It has plenty of checks for every set though. If it's Scarf it's basically just Knock Off farming and if it clicks an attack it's risking any contact punisher. We have Knock absorbers on a lot of fat teams but also a lot of HO teams nowadays have plenty of checks and Pokemon that own it. If it's Swords Dance you have so many Pokemon that just outspeed it, and again, contact punishing; it also has to make predictions and even predictions can't always make up for its shortcomings.

Like, yes, Gen 9 Pokemon have checks, for sure. But Gen 8 threats and walls all also have very good checks, what are you even talking about.

 

[tntblader]

Idk if other feel this way, but in 8 it felt a lot easier to make teams with extremely flimsy / weak defensive backbones. Yeah progress making in 8 could be awkward for sure, but the 8 metagame being centered so much around regen / Knock Off / Toxic also created a weirdly passive metagame that also made it hard to include stuff like a Ghost resist onto teams. Usually the easiest Ghost "resist" to fit onto teans were Spdef Chomp, Spdef Lando, and Spdef Heatran which had issues vs the Toxic / Knock Off Spam. In 8, I also found it pretty easy to get cheesed by various wincons, whether it be Kartana, Weav, or Cloyster, due to a lack of resist. Although, I will admit the wincons in 8 like weavile also felt extremely inconsistent. Regardless this forced interesting confessions like colbur berry Slowking-G onto teams.

I actually appreciate how much easier it is to check stuff in 9 comparatively. You don't have to go out of your way to include a Ghost resist with strong mons like Garg, Kingambit, and Ting-Lu, defensive Tera helps keep some annoying Pokémon like Roaring Moon better in-line, & the offensive threats this gen feel more consistent than they did in 8, while also having more defensive utility. Most of the cool tech in 8 to check stuff like Colbur Gking (or Colbur Ghold in my case) works great to lure shit like Kingambit, Weav, Darkrai, etc.in particular, I love how MUs aren't decided on preview as much this generation as they could be in 8 (though it still can be a feature with a few cheap mons).

tfw you haven't ever played ss and are complaining about nothing:
imma be so 100000% with ya. all of these minus pult aren't points? weav cant hax you outside of critting (it doesnt run moves with increased crit rate). spdef chomp was not for pult wdym. cloyster? cloyster? I have not seen bro outside of ladder from all I've played. and mus are not decided on preview in ss. there are like very very few. the ones that are are like shed stall vs hail/sand and even then you can win those. also btw svou has mus that are decided on preview, more of them than ss.

 

[UltraSword]

Well I got a dm back from Jertsi first (again) so I shall now talk about the one the only Kommo-o! I would like to say that similiar to hoopa u I haven't used this pokemon in ou at all so if I get anything wrong please correct me.

Kommo-o is a dragon fighting type is uubl for some reason...definitely can't imagine why. Being a pseudo legendary it has a solid stat spread and it has a great ability in soundproof (primarina be shaking in its metaphorical boots). However the thing that makes kommo-o truly powerful is its signature move clangorous soul. This move is an omniboost that boosts all of your stats (besides hp and accuracy of course) by 1 stage at the cost of losing a third of your health. This actually used to be a z move in gen 7 called clangorous soulblaze which had no drawbacks and also hit your opponent for a lot of damage (...I am glad z moves are gone now xD).

Kommo-o also has a solid movepool in boomburst drain punch flamethrower and clanging scales another signature move that is a 110 bp special dragon attack that lowers your defense by 1 every time it hits the opposing pokemon. Its solid defenses also mean it is usually able to live one attack after using clangorous soul. While it can use physical attacking and even mixed sets it generally prefers a special attacking set in gen 9 ou.

However Kommo-o has plenty of problems that prevent it from succeeding in ou. First off while its typing isn't bad it is 4 times weak to Fairy which betrays its great defenses. It is also weak to at least somewhat common attacking types in flying ice psychic and even dragon itself. This means that it cannot afford to CS when it is against many pokemon in ou with them being able to kill kommo-o sometimes even before it can boost such as roaring moon and iron valiant.

This brings us to kommo-o's second big problem which is its mediocre speed. Usually setup sweepers in gen 9 have to either have solid defenses or priority if they can't get to the same level of speed as paradox pokemon. For example Gouging fire (when it was in the tier) had bulk scizor has priority and dragonite has both. Kommo-o doesn't have good priority and cannot boost its speed up to the level of paradox pokemon unless it wants to sacrifice 2/3 of its health and it will have died long before that. Kommo-o does have solid defenses but these are betrayed by CS cutting off a third of kommo-o's health. Without having the speed or health to deal with paradox pokemon kommo-o often falls flat.

Despite these flaws kommo-o can still be a great sleeper pick if your opponent is unprepared for it (especially with tera) but in my opinion kommo-o is generally not very viable in ou. But what are your opinions of kommo-o? Please post them below. But anyway for now that is it for The Random Mons Of OU! So byeeeeeeee

 

[UltraSword]

Well I got a dm back from Jertsi first (again) so I shall now talk about the one the only Kommo-o! I would like to say that similiar to hoopa u I haven't used this pokemon in ou at all so if I get anything wrong please correct me.

Kommo-o is a dragon fighting type is uubl for some reason...definitely can't imagine why. Being a pseudo legendary it has a solid stat spread and it has a great ability in soundproof (primarina be shaking in its metaphorical boots). However the thing that makes kommo-o truly powerful is its signature move clangorous soul. This move is an omniboost that boosts all of your stats (besides hp and accuracy of course) by 1 stage at the cost of losing a third of your health. This actually used to be a z move in gen 7 called clangorous soulblaze which had no drawbacks and also hit your opponent for a lot of damage (...I am glad z moves are gone now xD).

Kommo-o also has a solid movepool in boomburst drain punch flamethrower and clanging scales another signature move that is a 110 bp special dragon attack that lowers your defense by 1 every time it hits the opposing pokemon. Its solid defenses also mean it is usually able to live one attack after using clangorous soul. While it can use physical attacking and even mixed sets it generally prefers a special attacking set in gen 9 ou.

However Kommo-o has plenty of problems that prevent it from succeeding in ou. First off while its typing isn't bad it is 4 times weak to Fairy which betrays its great defenses. It is also weak to at least somewhat common attacking types in flying ice psychic and even dragon itself. This means that it cannot afford to CS when it is against many pokemon in ou with them being able to kill kommo-o sometimes even before it can boost such as roaring moon and iron valiant.

This brings us to kommo-o's second big problem which is its mediocre speed. Usually setup sweepers in gen 9 have to either have solid defenses or priority if they can't get to the same level of speed as paradox pokemon. For example Gouging fire (when it was in the tier) had bulk scizor has priority and dragonite has both. Kommo-o doesn't have good priority and cannot boost its speed up to the level of paradox pokemon unless it wants to sacrifice 2/3 of its health and it will have died long before that. Kommo-o does have solid defenses but these are betrayed by CS cutting off a third of kommo-o's health. Without having the speed or health to deal with paradox pokemon kommo-o often falls flat.

Despite these flaws kommo-o can still be a great sleeper pick if your opponent is unprepared for it (especially with tera) but in my opinion kommo-o is generally not very viable in ou. But what are your opinions of kommo-o? Please post them below. But anyway for now that is it for The Random Mons Of OU! So byeeeeeeee

After I made this I have given this a bit more thought and kommo-o does have solid bulk and attack. It also has access to dragon dance...I wonder if there is any room for kommo-o as a gouging fire replacement? It obviously will be worse given the fact that it has 5 less attack and it can't take advantage of protosynthesis...but would someone be willing to test this? I would myself...but I am not good enough at the game for that

 

[JackRG]

has anyone ever experimented and seen success with unorthodox bu sets? like for bu tusk i only ever see spin/headlong/spinner but i feel like there's so much more that can be experimented with. like i do understand that it's generally matchup fishy but tusk can turn the tables on most of it's checks with some theorizing in the builder. like, for example:

What about this set?

 

[Yveltyyy]

What about this set?

contrarianmons reference?!?!

 

[Moisture99]

Late to the Zama conversation, but yeah, I still think it's a banworthy mon.
Sure, you do have tons of checks that you can use against it (Gliscor, Moltres, Glowking, Pult...), but that's what you can do in a vaccuum, when it doesn't turn into a different type. You are going to burn it with Moltres? Not if it tera fire. You want to Roar phasing it? Be careful, it may Stone Edge ya. Crunch and Heavy Slam can deal with the types that it struggles against, or Substitute can be used to deal with status attempts.

As you can see, yes, it has 4MSS problem. However, I still feel this mon is one of the prime examples of Gen 9 matchup fishing mon, because just one bad call and you may see it snowballing out of control. "Mono fighting is a bad defensive / offensive typing" is only true if you account for a metagame that your Pokemon cannot turn into a different type to completely flip the matchup.



The only mon that I can find consistently checking Zamn is Hex Ghold. The rest always loses to a certain set, and chance that while laddering, you may run into some of those stuffs.

I mean, while BST is not everything, Zama has a good base spread that allows it to do whatever it wants to adapt to the metagame, unlike Hoopa-U.

I think this post is a severe oversimplification and generally lacks nuance.

I'll just address your example of first.
First, you shouldn't be surprised by tera fire since it is one of the most common teras on anyway.
Second, frequently runs roar (yes, this was partially due to and , but it's a great move on it regardless), so even if tera fires, you can just roar it out, and ur opponent is gonna be left looking a bit stupid with dauntless burned, tera burned, and a rocks weak dog. If their zama is roar? Well it probably loses to smth else on your team then e.g. hex ghold

If tera fire dog is somehow in a last mon situation vs , and somehow all of ur checks r weakened/dead, wouldn't you say your opponent deserves to win for successfully positioning their win condition? And last mon tera fire would be somewhat telegraphed anyway if your opponent seems to be hellbent on preserving zamazenta's health when it supposedly gets stonewalled by your moltres... should probably be sounding the alarm bells in your head and probably preserve smth like ep lando, prim, etc.

Second, stone edge is maybe the 8th move on ironpress . Idpress zama has 3 mandatory moveslots in id, press, and crunch - it wants any of rest, roar, sub, heavy slam way more than it does stone edge, so the opportunity cost of running stone edge (which only ohkos moltres -zapdos doesn't even instantly die so u can still preserve it) is pretty massive. Yeah sure, zama can beat with stone edge... but this doesn't indicate brokenness.

Zama is not unique in being able to beat smth through slotting on the right coverage. In fact, pretty much every single offensive pokemon in the tier, can bypass some of their checks eat through either the right tera or the right coverage/set - and this isn't broken, counterplay isn't linear courtesy of tera and set variety, and limitations can manifest in many different forms e.g. chip, hazards, positioning, opportunities, splashability, team support needed, etc.

The main reason why Zamazenta isn't broken is how easy and natural it is to fit multiple mons that 'sort of' or 'mostly' beat it on a single team:

Let's go over the teambuilding checklist:
1. Every team needs to handle . In relation to pokemon, splashable options include , , , and . Would you look at that, if you run lando and moltres for gambit, you already have one mon that 'mostly' beats zamazenta. Your own zama can even roar out your opponent's zama if you speed creep too. Other adaptations to gambit include stuff like wisp, encore, faster priority and roar. So you might see stuff like encore val, wisp pult, raging bolt, roar molt/zama. Would you look at that, now your team has something else that 'sort of' matches up well into zama.

2. Every team needs hazards. Unless ur boots zama (which isn't even close to broken, since it rewards good play/prediction, gives up significant defensive utility compared to ironpress, has severe 4mss since giving up either ice fang or heavy slam is horrendous, and can't do anything into something remotely bulky that it can't hit supereffectively e.g. alo), you're gonna be taking spikes/rocks chip every time u come in. Zamazenta usually has to come in early against its will in order to switch into mons like oger or gambit, so chipping it is not a difficult task. Chipping zama and burning dauntless makes it much harder to sweep with and expands its pool of existing counterplay (e.g. val moonblast may ohko now).

3. Every team needs to deal with , every team needs speed control, some teams need a spin blocker, most teams need special attackers (many of which happen to matchup favourably into zama) etc. Highly viable glues such as , , and also give zama a hard time, and would probably be run anyway even if zama didn't exist. Even if you want a dedicated, one mon zamazenta check... we still have great options in bold tera fairy and and even the niche options like (albeit only fits on very specific playstyles) and aren't unviable.


I could go on and on, but I think i've made my point. is a mon that you can not even consciously account for when teambuilding (unless ur playing HO) and probably still come out fine against it. Even hyper offense, the archetype zama is meant to excel against, can beat zamazenta with something like encore val/dnite, timely tera ghosts (trading tera for ur opponent's best HO check is more than worth it), good positioning, and chip from stuff like moth. It's fine for HO to trade 2 mons for zamazenta as well if it opens up the mon e.g. gambit that probably wins u the game.

I'm saying this as someone who mainly plays HO: it's one of the healthiest presences in the ou metagame. People need to stop only looking at when it wins (because generally when it wins, it looks like it wins by a lot), and instead the numerous instances where it did nothing or body pressed into flame body or whatever.

 

[RaikouLover]

Just dropping by to say thanks to all who banned Kyurem. Rain is back!!! Drizzle family we up!!

Having fun tearing things up with rain!

Despite these flaws kommo-o can still be a great sleeper pick if your opponent is unprepared for it (especially with tera) but in my opinion kommo-o is generally not very viable in ou. But what are your opinions of kommo-o? Please post them below. But anyway for now that is it for The Random Mons Of OU! So byeeeeeeee

I haven’t tried homie Kommo-O yet. I don’t see why Dragon Dance / Swords Dance + Scale Shot wouldn’t work? CS seems more difficult because of the health sacrifice. It’s one of those mons that can be viable however the viability is how does one justify it over Roaring Moon or Dragonite?