Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

[Avira]

Eh. If Vert believes that Kyurem isn't an issue based off their own experience, I don't see how that is insincere. Like, are we not supposed to give our honest opinions on the survey?

Sure, it uses hyperbolic language, but let's be real, most survey posts use it. And I say this as someone who believes Kyurem should go.

I completely agree with this. If Vert's offense teams shit on Kyurem, describing it as trash based on his experience is legitimate even if it's hyperbolic in nature. There is nothing insincere about about his take, and players need to learn to accept other player's opinions. Kyurem does have clear weaknesses in being SR weak and having a middling speed tier with some very nasty weaknesses to Rock, Steel, and Fighting, which other Dragon-type Pokemon don't share, all of which reduce Kyurem's splashability, which is the main reason Vert called Kyurem dogshit. I myself want Kyurem banned, but I'm not going to accept someone calling Vert's take insincere just 'cause he thinks Kyurem has no business not being banned.

 

[RS25802580]

I completely agree with this. If Vert's offense teams shit on Kyurem, describing it as trash based on his experience is legitimate even if it's hyperbolic in nature. There is nothing insincere about about his take, and players need to learn to accept other player's opinions. Kyurem does have clear weaknesses in being SR weak and having a middling speed tier with some very nasty weaknesses to Rock, Steel, and Fighting, which other Dragon-type Pokemon don't share, all of which reduce Kyurem's splashability, which is the main reason Vert called Kyurem dogshit. I myself want Kyurem banned, but I'm not going to accept someone calling Vert's take insincere just 'cause he thinks Kyurem has no business not being banned.

Kyurem, as a general mon in this meta, is obviously not trash though. If it fares poorly against his teams, he should say so. That’s context that people should hear.

“it's trash, always has been. i rarely use it. gking had 90% usage before this 'mon even came out because it's uninteractive nonsense”

I think it goes without saying that Kyurem has not always been trash (hell, the last time it was suspected it got 58%), glowking never has 90% usage, and glowking being “nonsense” is purely subjective.

Oh and one last thing.

tour players however are always late on trends and will whine about it in a couple weeks.. this is one of many waves that come-and go. first it was breaking swipe goug then wellspring then zama now this.

I don’t even play tourneys but I think this is just unnecessarily disrespectful. Folks’ complaints about Waterpon and Zama is “whining”. Got it. And we were just talking about respecting peoples’ opinions.

If this is the kind of rhetoric you think is sincere, then we’re just not seeing eye to eye. You can continue to defend this if you want. I won’t keep engaging.

 

[SeanWasTaken]

"There's no rule that says balance has to be good" is such a wacky, air bud ass take. Sure, okay, cool. There's no rule saying a dog cant play pokemon. "You're not entitled to Balance being good" okay yeah, my bad, sorry for acting so entitled to lofty privileges like "defensive counterplay" and "reliable switch-ins".

Balance "being good" is just what happens when solid defensive counterplay exists. Suggesting we should just "let the meta be offensive" is tantamount to saying that it simply doesn't matter whether a mon has defensive counterplay or not, which is a drastic departure from how ou is and always has been tiered. Do we need an essay explaining why being able to switch into common threats is good?

What if we change the definition of "broken" so that a third of ubers stops being broken? And we can finally just play offense v offense all day? Wouldn't that be great? Epic win for people with the attention span of a fruit fly. Boldly calling upon us to suck it up and sit on our hands. Trust me bro, the meta is perfect actually.

Might as well just free annihilape and hearthflame and a bunch of other shit, since they're only broken into defense. After all, why should those playstyles get special treatment, they're not entitled to anything. If they invalidate balance then oh well, just play offense loser

 

[Brandon Mattis]

I do appreciate all that stuff earlier about how Offensive play can inherently best its checks and counters easier then defensive play can. Even without diving into finches diaries its not hard to see how its true especially when this gens Tera mechanics is taken into account.

With a quick thought experiment, offense can easily used Tera do be like "no actually I beat my check now, we are playing 6-5 let's see if you can still stop me"

While defensive play even if they Tera a good defensive type at a good time egainst offense, unless a smart and hard punish was made on that turn you Tera. Then the hypothetical offense mon say Wellspring can just swap and see if they can pressure you into further choking and letting that offense mon get back in the break later.


With that being said I do still generally feel like kyrum and darkrai removal have more immediate clear value and benefits , and it's worth discussing, but a Wellspring ban has a lot less benefits and can arguably be a detriment to the meta depending on how your coming at it from. Like Darkrai is a ball of well distributed stats with some nasty secondary effects on all his moves and mix kyrum is well mixed kyrum. Wellspring is a mostly honest wallbreaker who's biggest weakness into bulkier teams is its own 4 moveslot syndrome. But seeing how subpar it isn't into many other strategies it passes the strong but fair check to me.

Further more I don't actually think removing this mon will do much at all to help the offense edges out defensive problem this gen. It might just be case that this is one of those gens where offense 60:40 defense. And you can be a part of the cooler 40 percent of you want to buy its gonna be harder. It might just be best to look at it like. "Welp, gg boys, we put up a good fight, especially you stall Chad, adapting something new for the Ops like every month, yall born ready for the smoke. But atlast this might just not be our gen, maybe we'll get em in gen 10."

Wait actually, scratch all that, gen 10 probably has megas and I mean If gamefreak designs more glimora's than garg's then you guys might just be fucked for a lil while longer lol .

 

[littensalt]

my kyurem thoughts after a Very long 5 months​

kyurem has always been the mon i felt needs to go most, while i do agree the tier also has plenty of culprits that should be suspected some time before we stop banning things(probably waterpon, maybe moon or darkrai), kyurem is by FAR the biggest constraint when teambuilding for me, though i May be a usually midrange 1500ish BO or balance player, i Seriously think kyurems the most annoying to build around and im obviously not the only one to believe that

by far, its sets are the thing that push it over the edge, while special attacking sets are the biggest problem to me, i wont lie when i say if it was ONLY the specs or loaded dice dd, it probably wouldnt be much of a problem, but we live in a timeline were off the top of my head, kyurem has SEVEN viable sets including variations, and four main sets(im counting items as how sets are made for mons because for kyurem it widely changes how it plays, from a special wallbreaker, to a physical sweeper that doesnt get contact punished, to a hdb mon that can threaten anything when its on the field, to a never melt ice mixed sweeper

as many sets as i could think of

EP = earth power, IB = ice beam, DM = draco meteor, IS = icicle spear, DD = dragon dance, BP = body press, FD = freeze dry

specs(ice)
specs, now with blizzard and always paired with glowking for a 110 base power move with a 10% chance to freeze coming off a base 130 special attack stat, how fun!!!!(yes im counting this as a seperate set because this is an entire monster of its own when given the chances)

loaded dice DD(then usually last move is sub, tera blast ground/fire/electric or freeze dry)

hdb(EP, IB, DM, FD)
hdb(EP, FD, IS + DD)
hdb(EP, FD, IS/BP/DM, IS/BP/DM)

never melt ice, FD, EP, IS, then 3 options in DM, IB or DD

but a mon having a lot of sets isnt always the issue, pult has 3 main sets(specs, hdb, band) and usually a variation in terms of moves for hdb like thunder wave, draco, will o, u-turn, etc, and similarly, hamurott has plenty of sets from sash, hdb, av, scarf, etc with an amazing movepool filled with 2 priority moves, a pivoting move, 2 solid ways for a water attack(aqua cutter and razor shell), and knock too!!
yet no one is seriously discussing a ban for either(okay Maybe pult on occasion but if you hate it that
much you might have to just start slapping garg on your team sorry)..well why is kyurem any different?
it all really comes down to coverage, from 3 moves alone, kyurem already has perfect coverage in ice, ground and dragon, while most other mons such as darkrai have to fit in an extra one for truly perfect coverage, and considering kyurem also has physical moves to bounce off of from another base 130 physical attack, it Really isnt out of options

but what about one of the main arguments for kyurem ?

“non-hdb gets chipped by rocks!!”, yes, but any teambuilder will choose one of two options to bypass this:
A:have a hazard remover or even hazard changer in cinderace
or B:make up for it via wishpassing or some other support, and because mola being able to flip turn on everything except waterpon, a mon that Really hates freeze dry, which just so happens to be a move kyurem runs on half the sets i listed, and cant even kill kyurem at full even with +2 cudgel even WITH a crit, and even with tera but no crit?you just lost at LEAST half your waterpons health and up to 70 on a high roll, oh and if snow is up?good luck its a 53% chance to 2HKO even with tera and +2 and if you have rocks its a 2HKO

while yes, hazards are a great way to chip down kyurem, when youre playing against someone with a wellbuilt team, youre struggling to get rocks back up as kyurem spams whatever move its got to hit you for at least neutral, and since most rockers are gonna be slower and not bulky enough to live anything from kyurem like tusk, lando, gliscor, and heatran, its a Very hard battle to win

and in terms of mons that can check certain kyurems?

- an amazing mon, but just a great check, which really doesnt feel like its cutting it for me, struggles against mixed sets, gets 2HKO’d by tera ice beam from specs, and if you chilly?congrats you just gave it a boost to its defenses
run toxic to try and check most sets?sub or tera steel and you just gave it a free DD
glowkings also one of the best partners for kyurem, allowing a very free chilly for a nice physdef boost really helps it and with how great glowking already is this is a rich get richer case to me

- stallmon only, maybe one day someone will make some kinda secret blissey tech for us nonstall players but thats all blissey will be for now (this guy also Really doesnt like mixed or dd sets)

- a more offensive check to kyurem and imo the best one, always OHKO’s but needs a good amount of support cuz of hazards, love this guy a lot and being able to get rid of glimmora in a turn is a valuable trait in itself, also just a valuable fast pivot, pair this guy with another pivot like a slower and you can create a crazy vortex chain of nothing but just switching out again and again

- very dependent on the set, but overall a solid check and especially if you got rocks up, physical val OHKO’s with cc, mixed has a 43% to OHKO with cc, moonblast cant OHKO though from special val sorry :(

overall, things have gotten even worse with kyurem, while scarf is basically nonexistent, the amount of variations of sets has Really been affecting the enjoyability of the tier for me, and if you say kyurems a low rating on ban scale or an easy mon to deal wtih to me then i think you should either have a damn good argument against its mixed sets or tell us the secret tech you’ve been hiding to beat it(ooo.. )

thank you for letting me get my thinkpiece about kyurem out, have a great night everyone

 

[littensalt]

and as a little bonus thing, if youre interested in an average midladder BO and balance players thoughts on the survery

- a low 3, might even be a 2? i think over the past couples of weeks we’ve really seen it get things going, while i do agree that its great and can lead to a lot of wins, against ghost types(especially with the rise of sinistcha) & contact punishers like molt/zap, it Really doesnt feel like a big priorty, and ESPECIALLY into stall its just. Lmao. and if it goes, then imo gambit probably should too and maybeee ghold, they form a trio and if any of them go the other 2 should follow


- 3(probably a 2 in retrospect once again),still doing usual gambit things, tera fire is Very annoying to me but in general gambits annoying, a very “lawful evil” mon to me, yes its very cheese and no one likes losing 50/50s, but it does check some bs and i can respect(keyword) it for that, as well as this same reasoning as zama, if one goes i really think the other 2 should too


- 4, even though looking back it should be a 3, imo once we start seeing bans i think mons like clod and tinglu will feel better and actually be able to stop this thing from +6ing its way to tera fairy sweep, i still think its very annoying though and it forms a really good synergy with kyurem and waterpon to get rid of the ground types that can check it, and those specs sets are nothing to laugh at im telling yall
also no treads will never feel like a full counter to this guy unless we bring back av


- 3, unfortunately i have a bias for her because stopping mola is something it does exponentially well, and unless volcanion comes back in style after her ban, nothing defensively really likes switching into her and even with her best check sinistcha, it has to hope to either burn or that its running play rough and not knock or encore, offensively though revenge killers like the dragons can do a lot in return, and its good but not amazing speed of 350 leaves it open to getting hit by faster mons like pult, deoxys, val, etc. like many before me have stated the lack of a solid defensive grass type is Really hitting the tier hard
fully expect either her, kyurem or darkrai to be suspected soon, speaking of which..


- 3, is finally beating the mid allegations..similar to another couple of mons hm…()
seriously though, although it may seem a bit underwhelming being pure dark, no priority(unless youre physical), having to rely on focus miss to check gambit, when you factor in all its coverage from a simple life orb or expert belt set and the added tera in case of rilla or for a sludge bomb damage boost, this guy can go crazy and with no real solid check(unless..)i think it wont be just another fad of the week like tera stellar serp or enam, it just took a bit of time for us to find a good set to use it on


- ill let my recent post speak for itself(5)


also added that moon is annoying, getting knock’d hurts most contact punishers like molt/zap’s longevity a lot and im sure dozo doesnt like getting its boots knock’d off on stall and taking hazards

and finally, there is No real reason we should be bringing back any ubermon unless we want another 12 problems added to the criticisms of this tier already, as it stands focusing on whats causing issues to the tier than throwing shit in here hoping one of them will be the secret savior to fixing the tiers problem is a better method no matter how much bs we might have

thats all, going back to my cave so i can come up with more reasons why i hate kyurem or something..take it easy yall

 

[RS25802580]

my kyurem thoughts after a Very long 5 months​

kyurem has always been the mon i felt needs to go most, while i do agree the tier also has plenty of culprits that should be suspected some time before we stop banning things(probably waterpon, maybe moon or darkrai), kyurem is by FAR the biggest constraint when teambuilding for me, though i May be a usually midrange 1500ish BO or balance player, i Seriously think kyurems the most annoying to build around and im obviously not the one to believe that

by far, its sets are the things that push it over the edge, while special attacking sets are the biggest problem to me, i wont lie when i say if it was ONLY the specs or loaded dice dd, it probably wouldnt be much of a problem, but we live in a timeline were off the top of my head, kyurem has SEVEN viable sets including variations, and four main sets(im counting items as how sets are made for mons because for kyurem it widely changes how it plays, from a special wallbreaker, to a physical sweeper that doesnt get contact punished, to a hdb mon that can threaten anything when its on the field, to a never melt ice mixed sweeper

as many sets as i could think of

EP = earth power, IB = ice beam, DM = draco meteor, IS = icicle spear, DD = dragon dance, BP = body press, FD = freeze dry

specs(ice)
specs, now with blizzard and always paired with glowking for a 110 base power move with a 10% chance to freeze coming off a base 130 special attack stat, how fun!!!!(yes im counting this as a seperate set because this is an entire monster of its own when given the chances)

loaded dice DD(then usually last move is sub, tera blast ground/fire/electric or freeze dry)

hdb(EP, IB, DM, FD)
hdb(EP, FD, IS + DD)
hdb(EP, FD, IS/BP/DM, IS/BP/DM)

never melt ice, FD, EP, IS, then 3 options in DM, IB or DD

but a mon having a lot of sets isnt always the issue, pult has 3 main sets(specs, hdb, band) and usually a variation in terms of moves for hdb like thunder wave, draco, will o, u-turn, etc, and similarly, hamurott has plenty of sets from sash, hdb, av, scarf, etc with an amazing movepool filled with 2 priority moves, a pivoting move, 2 solid ways for a water attack(aqua cutter and razor shell), and knock too!!
yet no one is seriously discussing a ban for either(okay Maybe pult on occasion but if you hate it that
much you might have to just start slapping garg on your team sorry)..well why is kyurem any different?
it all really comes down to coverage, from 3 moves alone, kyurem already has perfect coverage in ice, ground and dragon, while most other mons such as darkrai have to fit in an extra one for truly perfect coverage, and considering kyurem also has physical moves to bounce off of from another base 130 physical attack, it Really isnt out of options

but what about one of the main arguments for kyurem ?

“non-hdb gets chipped by rocks!!”, yes, but any teambuilder will choose one of two options to bypass this:
A:have a hazard remover or even hazard changer in cinderace
or B:make up for it via wishpassing or some other support, and because mola being able to flip turn on everything except waterpon, a mon that Really hates freeze dry, which just so happens to be a move kyurem runs on half the sets i listed, and cant even kill kyurem at full even with +2 cudgel even WITH a crit, and even with tera but no crit?you just lost at LEAST half your waterpons health and up to 70 on a high roll, oh and if snow is up?good luck its a 53% chance to 2HKO even with tera and +2 and if you have rocks its a 2HKO

while yes, hazards are a great way to chip down kyurem, when youre playing against someone with a wellbuilt team, youre struggling to get rocks back up as kyurem spams whatever move its got to hit you for at least neutral, and since most rockers are gonna be slower and not bulky enough to live anything from kyurem like tusk, lando, gliscor, and heatran, its a Very hard battle to win

and in terms of mons that can check certain kyurems?

- an amazing mon, but just a great check, which really doesnt feel like its cutting it for me, struggles against mixed sets, gets 2HKO’d by tera ice beam from specs, and if you chilly?congrats you just gave it a boost to its defenses
run toxic to try and check most sets?sub or tera steel and you just gave it a free DD
glowkings also one of the best partners for kyurem, allowing a very free chilly for a nice physdef boost really helps it and with how great glowking already is this is a rich get richer case to me

- stallmon only, maybe one day someone will make some kinda secret blissey tech for us nonstall players but thats all blissey will be for now (this guy also Really doesnt like mixed or dd sets)

- a more offensive check to kyurem and imo the best one, always OHKO’s but needs a good amount of support cuz of hazards, love this guy a lot and being able to get rid of glimmora in a turn is a valuable trait in itself, also just a valuable fast pivot, pair this guy with another pivot like a slower and you can create a crazy vortex chain of nothing but just switching out again and again

- very dependent on the set, but overall a solid check and especially if you got rocks up, physical val OHKO’s with cc, mixed has a 43% to OHKO with cc, moonblast cant OHKO though from special val sorry :(

overall, things have gotten even worse with kyurem, while scarf is basically nonexistent, the amount of variations of sets has Really been affecting the enjoyability of the tier for me, and if you say kyurems a low rating on ban scale or an easy mon to deal wtih to me then i think you should either have a damn good argument against its mixed sets or tell us the secret tech you’ve been hiding to beat it(ooo.. )

thank you for letting me get my thinkpiece about kyurem out, have a great night everyone

I agree with pretty much all of this. It’s also worth mentioning that Glowking gets destroyed by mixed Kyurem. Around 1800 I’ve seen Loaded Dice Icicle Spear + Three Special Attacks Kyurem designed specifically to bait in Glowking/Blissey and destroy them. Then it either wins outright or lets partners like Valiant sweep.

People mention hazards as a Kyurem weakness, but the dynamic goes both ways. The teams that abuse Kyurem greatly benefit from hazards. AV Glowking and Iron Crown hate taking hazards chip. The pressure Kyurem exerts makes removal very difficult for things like Tusk or Corv. In a two way hazards war the defensive team is the one that loses.

Lastly people say that Kyurem is not splashable, which is true, but forget that splashability has no relation to brokenness. Kyurem can be hard to fit onto teams, but the ones that do slot it on are those that are built around abusing it. If anything, this means that the meta has very little to lose from banning Kyurem.

 

[Magcargo]

Kinda surprised by the Kyurem hate being so high compared to Wellspring. Kyurem requires like, 2-3x the amount of support in the builder when compared to Wellspring and still feels inconsistent next to Wellspring's blisteringly high speed, better defensive profile, and combo of pivoting capabilities, Encore, and setup (not all at once mind you but it can pick and choose what it does). Kyu has a bit of variety too since it can basically just run Freeze Dry + EP and two random moves, but its typing is still trash in comparison and I find it doesn't really have as easy of a time switching in as Wellspring.

Amongus is a decent wellspring answer + has utility against Garg, but it also gets shit on by GKing quite easily which makes it hard for it to make meaningful progress. Most Tera Fairy mons + Clef handle boots Kyu decently well, while specs Kyu switch-ins are more limited, its moves also aren't save clicks and it needs half the team to support it to keep rocks off the field (which is also inconsistent). Personally, I also find it easier to setup and keep hazards against Kyurem than wellspring, which is outright threatening a sweep if given a free turn much more consistently than Kyu IMO.

Mola is pretty cancerous so I do understand wanting to limit it, but like, the amount of support Wellspring requires compared to Kyu to effectively do the same thing is drastically less.

We can prob suspect Kyurem again later, given that a decent amount of people still have a problem with it, but I'd rather just focus on Wellspring rn which has never been sussed.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

Mola is pretty cancerous so I do understand wanting to limit it,

Legitimately everytime I hear about Mola I just think about the Volcanion trapping set I was using for awhile to fuck over stall. With Tera ghost and trapping tech you can effective get blissy and Mola in one team slot. It was VERY effective and while I haven't used it ina while, I imagine if mola/stall seriously become a bigger issue that it'll be essential for dealing with it.

 

[RS25802580]

Kinda surprised by the Kyurem hate being so high compared to Wellspring. Kyurem requires like, 2-3x the amount of support in the builder when compared to Wellspring and still feels inconsistent next to Wellspring's blisteringly high speed, better defensive profile, and combo of pivoting capabilities, Encore, and setup (not all at once mind you but it can pick and choose what it does). Kyu has a bit of variety too since it can basically just run Freeze Dry + EP and two random moves, but its typing is still trash in comparison and I find it doesn't really have as easy of a time switching in as Wellspring.

Amongus is a decent wellspring answer + has utility against Garg, but it also gets shit on by GKing quite easily which makes it hard for it to make meaningful progress. Most Tera Fairy mons + Clef handle boots Kyu decently well, while specs Kyu switch-ins are more limited, its moves also aren't save clicks and it needs half the team to support it to keep rocks off the field (which is also inconsistent). Personally, I also find it easier to setup and keep hazards against Kyurem than wellspring, which is outright threatening a sweep if given a free turn much more consistently than Kyu IMO.

Mola is pretty cancerous so I do understand wanting to limit it, but like, the amount of support Wellspring requires compared to Kyu to effectively do the same thing is drastically less.

We can prob suspect Kyurem again later, given that a decent amount of people still have a problem with it, but I'd rather just focus on Wellspring rn which has never been sussed.

There are decent selection of mons that can switch into Wellspring once or twice and force progress. Pult, Zama, Bolt, Rillaboom, Dragonite, and Kyurem itself are the ones that come to mind. Any midrange balance team can afford to run one or two of these to reduce the overall impact that Wellspring exerts in a game.

Fat balance can run Sinistcha and stall can run Hydrapple or Tera on Dozo.

Play Rough or Knock Off as coverage complicates things though. These are effective against Kyurem/Bolt/Hydrapple and Sinistcha, respectively, and less effective against the likes of Rillaboom and Zama. Though I find Waterpon really wants Encore. The matchup-fishy nature of this final slot is why I gave Waterpon a high survey score.

Nonetheless, the fact that you can just Tera Dozo and wall Waterpon to oblivion is a major help for fatter teams.

Compare this to Kyurem. Seriously, what is switching into Kyurem? What options exist on stall or fat balance to check mixed Kyurem defensively? Also compared to Waterpon, Mixed DD Kyurem can boost its speed at low opportunity cost, making it more difficult for balance teams to revenge kill. Lastly, I feel that Kyurem contributes a lot less constructive positives to the meta compared to Waterpon. The meta really loses nothing by banning Kyurem since its not very splashable to begin with and only used on a subset of teams that specifically abuse it.

That’s not to say that I’m against a Waterpon suspect because I wouldn’t mind that either.

 

[June Heat]

Can we stop calling Waterpon fast just because it is good? No one would ever consider the likes of Latios and Gengar fast anymore, and Iron Moth may as well be paralyzed without a speed boost. Its Speed is above average at best, but still gets out-sped by like half the metagame.

 

[amyayayy]

i've been looking to get into ou and climb properly, i've been looking passively at the meta for a while and it sounds rly fun. what is the best way to learn more about the meta without spamming games mindlessly?

 

[Finchinator]

i've been looking to get into ou and climb properly, i've been looking passively at the meta for a while and it sounds rly fun. what is the best way to learn more about the meta without spamming games mindlessly?

watch WCoP replays, they will help. But hard to compensate for firsthand experience

 

[amyayayy]

watch WCoP replays, they will help. But hard to compensate for firsthand experience

how do i climb with the intention of improving? I used one of the sample teams (CTC sash enam HO) to climb to 1671 when volc was getting suspected but it feels like i got skill checked hard at that elo, it feels hard to come up with a team yourself and i dont know how many common sets to keep in mind. thank you for the reply

 

[Finchinator]

how do i climb with the intention of improving? I used one of the sample teams (CTC sash enam HO) to climb to 1671 when volc was getting suspected but it feels like i got skill checked hard at that elo, it feels hard to come up with a team yourself and i dont know how many common sets to keep in mind. thank you for the reply

Best way to improve is using a variety of teams and getting in a large sample of games. This opens your mind up to new approaches and lines in the game while also building a foundation that is varied for future teambuilding. Another tip is to save replays when you lose and try to dissect what went wrong and how to avoid it next time.

 

[BobbyHill]

how do i climb with the intention of improving? I used one of the sample teams (CTC sash enam HO) to climb to 1671 when volc was getting suspected but it feels like i got skill checked hard at that elo, it feels hard to come up with a team yourself and i dont know how many common sets to keep in mind. thank you for the reply

Would love if there were more resources regarding improvement. I’ve basically given up getting better in this meta because everything feels so match up based and there’s so much weight on every turn RNG controls a lot. Even my peaks I feel a bit of imposter syndrome because of the luck I had.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Can we stop calling Waterpon fast just because it is good? No one would ever consider the likes of Latios and Gengar fast anymore, and Iron Moth may as well be paralyzed without a speed boost. Its Speed is above average at best, but still gets out-sped by like half the metagame.

Yeah waterpon has good speed, but mostly because it hits that benchmark of 110 that is so valued this gen. Speed is merely good, waterpon is busted because of its defensive utility and stupid breaking power after an SD with good bulk too.

Anyway I hope Kyurem or Waterpon gets the suspect. Hearing a ton of anti kyurem sentiment, even more than before when we did the last suspect so I think its time to get Kyurem out of here. Also for those saying mola being all over the meta if waterpon gets banned is a bad thing, it probably is not as it being a great wishpasser and the mon just isn't broken. If anything Mola passing more wishes to allow pokemon to take more hits is probably very welcome in a meta like this full of hyper offense. Getting either out is fine by me

 

[yomaalt]

Alright I haven't been here in a while and I'm practically unqualified in every aspect so yippee
Enjoyment: 5 haven't been playing nearly as much as before but some things just kinda tick me off, feels like alot of rng heavy mons are roaming a bit too freely (Looking at you iron moth/fraud)
Competitiveness 6 (prolly should've given a 7 but i digress) Most playstyles can work, don't run balance tho

5

Darkrai rant ish

On my darkrai hating arc rn but my god i didn't think the abilityless, mono dark stab 135 special attack mon would overtake the specs constant neutral hit spamming kyurem or the effective base 154 attack "always crit whenever it needs to fuck you over" ivy cudgel carrying waterpon as balance's worst MU, but damn darkrai may genuinely be second only to annihilape this gen. Darkrai imo seems to work on a "I need a bit of chip to 2ko everything" basis, which it plays into perfectly by abusing it's high ass speed tier, very solid movepool and the near omnipresence of some form of hazard. There really is no safe switchin (on most balances) to a darkrai using a very simple 4A ebelt set, cause the "good" ones can get fucked by sludge bomb poison or ibeam freeze at any time (looking at YOU zamazenta). Another thing about darkrai is his pretty well encompassing movepool. You can think you've got a good darkrai matchup using stall until it reveals psyshock and starts blowing your blissey/clodsires up, forcing a tera super early (bliss can die from +2 shock into +2 fblast, clod will live but now he's weak to u turn and whatnot), or scarf darkrai having a way better MU into offense as now all the rmoon's, iron mothes and iron valiant's can't outspeed him for free, and trick will absolutely ruin any setup sweeper who's trying to use a setup move assuming "I eat this free +2 so i can outspeed the ival". I don't quite think this is the end for darkrai set innovation, cause that one set finch mention (knock, wisp, 2a) with hdb could seem like a very promising one, as it lures in old darkrai checks (zamazenta) and ruins it via knock/wisp, while knock paired with spikes support has insane potential on a mon who's always a bit of chip away from getting the kill. Now, while I've been praising darkrai's merits, it's not to say it's a flawless mon. I mentioned it already, but mono dark stab is honestly kinda ass as a defensive typing, and that type doesn't help him when the mons faster then him (Zamazenta, Dragapult, Ival, Imoth) all have SE moves to heavily chip/ohko it, it in Imoth's case, just lives most-any move it throws) psyshock blows moth up after a spike round, or that the darkrai's entire gimmic is "2ko" and not "ohko", which can REALLY hurt it considering some mons can take it's hit and blow it up in return (Ex: tera water waterpon devours sludge bomb from darkrai and tera'd Ivy is a 75% ohko chance). Darkrai is a very powerful pokemon, which I personally think should've never been unbanned, but as it did, I suppose best I can do is voice my opinion about how it's kinda broken. It isn't a breaking swipe dd gouging situation, which could be amended by swapping a simple move (ep-> eq on rhelm lando-t, curse dondozo, etc...) cause how're you getting that move off if you're already down to half by the time you found a way to come into darkrai? A majority of the tier is hit by an SE move off the most common set, and those who aren't dislike being hit by Dpulse since nasty flinch rate ontop of solid chip, and when you have the ability the raw outspeed most of the tier you can kinda see where it starts getting a bit ridiculous.

TL:DR: Darkrai's playstyle works incredibly well with the atmosphere of SV OU (Minmaxxed bastards who die to most SE hits, tanky ones die from 2 SE hits with the very common chip up), his speed tier is wonderous, his movesets are underexplored imo, and the fix isn't as easy as dealing withdd goug since most mons are just forced to tera to try to deal with krai. Btw deoxys is a fucking bitch who's cooked by any dumbass with decently strong priority. Sorry if it was a hard read I honestly just put whatever came to mind while writing this, may make a proper post later idk.

4
Gave her a 4 cause while she isn't as fast as darkrai, she hits way harder off a better stab combo (not like krai HAS a stab combo to speak of) an d with SD, which is far easier for her to get then darkrai getting a NP, she can get ridiculous to deal with since Ivy is one of the dumbest moves introduced this gen (12.5% crit rate, one hundred bp, non contact, 16 pp stab move aight brah) and with her solid movepool can very well abuse some noticeable balance staples to get free boosts. Simple moveslot changes such as PR/Knock cooks most of her checks as well, so I think 4's good enough.

3
Gave this guy a 3, i think he's the "worst" out of the balance busting bunch. Not to say he's BAD, but his VERY apparent SR weakness (assuming specs) paired with a heavy reliance on not getting knocked (hdb, specs or loaded dice sets) really doesn't help him. He's strong, but idt he's nearly as bad as the other two.

2
Not a fan of this guy but i don't think he's that bad. Booster sets are reliant on the booster boost to get past clodsire/ting lu, lefties sets can be encored on the CM/tclaps, specs sets can be read, sun can be annoying tho.

3
still hate this guy but he's pretty useful for rkilling waterpon/kyurem. Unfortunately darkrai cooks him.

3
Now I (personally) believe myself to be an OG zamazenta truther, but even I must realize how annoying the mon can get. I'd give it a 4, but it's a balanced mon held in check by hazards/the unaware mons/pult status/the fact that it's forced in so many times cause kingambit/wellspring/darkrai/rmoon/etc... all are commonly checked by him but they can get past him which doesn't mean he's undefeatable. I think a 3 is fine for now.

Write-ups:
Fuck Stored Power.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Btw, if I'm not mistaken DaddyBuzzwole is majoring in game dev so don't go that route lol (or just don't pepper every single interaction starting from the very first post in this discussion with very thinly veiled insults)

i actually got my degree in game design two and a half years ago but yeah, i'm more than qualified to use terms like "emergent gameplay" without sounding like a poser, unlike professor default pfp over there

(I’m replying to moyashi here and prior comments. not directed at the more recent, respectful replies since then)

Ok this is my last response bc I’m getting annoyed by all the passive aggressive comments and it’s hard not to hold contempt for that kind of communication, but I don’t want to be rude to anyone individually, so anyway:

It’s disingenuous of you to say there’s no moral quality. These words are all things people have used to describe these Pokémon or playstyles. Calling something brainless, healthy, or respectable absolutely carries moral judgements by their definition. There is a quality of goodness to all those terms. There’s an apparent bias in how those are applied by most in this thread, As more eloquently put by my sidekick and first mate. If you don’t agree with that then we’re speaking different languages and that’s ok too.

I’m not going to list kyurem counterplay here because you don’t actually want it. You just want something to refute.I’ve already shared it; play something more aggressive.

so let me get this straight, you're tired of "passive-aggressive comments" and you "don't want to be rude to anyone" but your first post on the forum was "you're all idiots for trying to balance the game"? you don't get to make shit takes like that with that attitude without getting dogpiled on until you have at least a trophy or banner under your name, and even then people are gonna clown on you if your opinions are bad or your posts are rude. if you don't like being yelled at, get better opinions and present them in a polite and respectful way. otherwise, stop trying to larp as ctc/vert/storm zone until you're at least as good as them

Would love if there were more resources regarding improvement. I’ve basically given up getting better in this meta because everything feels so match up based and there’s so much weight on every turn RNG controls a lot. Even my peaks I feel a bit of imposter syndrome because of the luck I had.

this is, i think, the biggest problem with this gen: it's more difficult to get started and improve than it's ever been. between the matchup-fishiness of the meta, the importance of choosing the right lead, the constraints on building due to threat saturation, the catastrophic consequences of even a single bad turn, and tera raising the skill floor as much as it raises the skill ceiling if not more, gen 9 ou is very rewarding to veteran top players but actively hostile to new players, older players who are just getting back into things, or anyone trying to improve competitively. accessibility isn't a tiering priority and shouldn't be, but i think that this is something about the state of the meta that should at least be discussed

 

[Achohermano]

I'm also gonna post here my opinion based of the questions asked in the survey. I want to keep clear that they're just my thoughts and if anyone was to debate with me I'd be cool to do it (because, at least for now, I have to say that the people in this foroum have all been really kind and cool to talk with and that's neat:) )

Enjoyment
5/10

Has the meta improved since the Volc ban? Yeah, I think that banning the moth made the tier much better. However we still have a long way to go... I have two big issues with gen9:

1. I think building is really hard in gen 9. If you're trying to make that isn't sun, HO or Webs, it's really hard to find all the pieces you need in only 6 slots due to all the strong mons collapsing the tier right now. I think that even some "easy" styles to build in most of the modern gens, like rain or stall, are actually hard to build in gen 9 a lot of the time. Kyurem, Waterpon, Darkrai, Zama, Gambit, RBolt, RMoon, DNite, Valiant... Having an answer for all of them at the same time is really difficult.
This makes entering the tier extremely hard. Gen 9 has the highest skill floor of any tier since I started playing in gen 7, imo of course.

2. Matchup fishing is so easy in this gen... At least, on ladder. Tbh I don't play/ watch gen 9 tournaments (I don't have any problems with them I'm just not interested atm) so from ladder's perspective most of the stuff you're gonna face are HO / Webs teams that will try to fish the game with a Roaring Moon, or a late game Gambit/ Zama trying to sweep alongside another four mons most of the times. Or idk, fish for locking something on Encore with Valiant or Dniteand win / open a big hole from there. I think that tera's volatile nature plus all the threats makes playing not really fun a lot of times.
The dynamics those teams have make a lot of games really boring.
Do you have the tools needed to make them run out of steam and didn't got haxxed before they rolled you? GG you won.
Did they land a good place crit / had the tools that game to fish you with their HO / quirky stall team? GG you lost

Competitive
6/10

Idk a lot about tournaments but in ladder I think that the big 3 are unhealthy and Gliscor, Zama and Gambit are annoying and most of the time can get along from what they want even if you see it coming due to them having inconsistent answers. Apart from that I find the tier fair, better player wins 85-90% of the time.


4,5/5

Extremely strong, fast and hast unironically a lot of set variety. The tier would feel much better without it. The only good true answer it has is Alolan Muk and we can all agree that while being raw af, the pile of sludge is not the first thing you'd like to add to a team

I think that without this mon we could take a look at sleep again for some cool stuff like Amoonguss or Breloom and the lower tiers.


5/5

Really hard to switch into, really easy to pivot in and either forces Tera to every single balance / stall team or just wins the game on the spot most of the time.
It's so strong, why does it have a 20% boost on EVERY HIT? That passive is too much man.


5/5

In my opinion, much better than Baxcalibur, and Baxcalibur's banned. That's all I gotta say tbh.
It's so centralizing with its ice moves that I honestly think a freeze clause should be looked if it's not banned in the long run.

There isn't a single (viable) pokémon in the GAME that can deal long term with all Kyurem variants. I think this one should be the priority.

:Zamazenta-hero:
4/5

Its tera is really matchup fishy and the HDB offensive set to bluff the ID BP makes it even more frustrating to play. It brings a solid answer to dark spam, so it's not that toxic of a pressence in the tier. Apart from that, won't disagree on a suspect test.


4/5

I think that either having 2-3 mons reserved for this in late game or playing a heads or tails it's not a healthy dynamic. Its bulk is outrageous and it's too strong. I just hate this mon imma be honest XD



2.5/5

Really strong and could be more dangerous once more stuff gets banned. But on the other hand, as of right now I find it quite tamed in this meta

 

[Rekka's Backend]

Would love if there were more resources regarding improvement. I’ve basically given up getting better in this meta because everything feels so match up based and there’s so much weight on every turn RNG controls a lot. Even my peaks I feel a bit of imposter syndrome because of the luck I had.

Legitimately my best advice as someone who mainly played during SuMo (Hugely different meta lol), and the hurdles I went thru and are still learning for this one. I'm going to list some small key points I feel that has helped me during this period:

1. Study a lot of presets and try to understand what their 'flowchart' of gameplay is. For example, Dragapult is likely often going to work as a fast status spreading pivot--Okay, when building a team I want then, I'll account for the 'average' Dragapult style. There will be specs options and such too, but normally once you sus out how mons are usually played you can start to build around them.

I like to build anti meta teams with some meta elements, but on average I build to account for the top mons first and go from there based on how they're usually played. For example, the current team I'm still workshopping a bit to refine is built around creating openings for snipes on the enemy so I can bring in Okidogi against their physical threats to bulk up, or Sini to control special attackers while abusing usual resistances with a ground/dark type, etc. Long as you predict how something like a Glowking is gonna play, you can know how to best respond to it. or better yet:

2. Pokemon is a game of reactions. I.e., If you have Glowking out in the field the enemy will usually pivot out to something like a dark type to absorb a future sight you've shot off--Often, this is your queue to bring in your fighting team, fairy type, counter, etc and sit on it. They're forced into an awkward position most of the time, and I think it's best to have a proactive as possible approach to these matches and think "How can I make the enemy react like I want to?"

For another example, I use Tinkaton a lot. Often bulk invested to long as many hits while being fast enough to para select threats like Kyurem, etc. Tink forces a lot of interactions, by using Knock/Encore/Thunderwave you can make the enemy scramble to select mons like Hatterene, ground types, etc. A lot of the time I quick switch to a flying type to avoid a balloon being popped, then as they set up rocks or similar come back in to encore on a move they're still using the opportunity to try and use, or force another awkward interaction on their behalf. Works best on Gilscors for sure though, Lando's too.

3. Try to find some live laddering streams or videos and watch how they often go about their gameplay--An easy one is Pinkacross, who not only explains his thought process and team building but also explains what he presumes the enemy will do too. This is helpful for people still trying to climb and/or get better mindsets cuz it accurate digs into why stronger players make the plans they do, and you apply these to your games a lot due to the lower skill floor allowing you to more easily go "I know from my low level that people are gonna react differently, so I can apply a fluid flowchart for how I wanna handle this based on my enemies lower floor too."

A lot of low ladder players have a team they know and use, but its often going to be something either akin to a preset or something very much built to auto pilot. So sometimes its just about disrupting the enemy to make their own gameplan fall apart as you spread status, taunt, hell even just land toxic on a lot of things.

This meta is very volatile and difficult, don't be discouraged. You're going to drop and learn, you're going to rise and learn too. I sat around 1300 for a few months trying to figure out how to handle this beast and now I'm upper 1500's steady. (I made a mistake in trying to change something and dropped 100 elo again though--) so even as someone who hasn't even touched the latest few gens, you can get into it and be at a comfortable place.

 

[PastaMechKaku]

A little late but here's my survey input:

Enjoyment/Competitiveness- 8

Hopping back on Pokemon Showdown after years of not playing has been quite fun. While current life events prevented me from playing as much as I'd like, I had fun with most my games even if it meant getting roughshod from a Tera guy/ war criminal 'mon I didn't know was possible (but I just adjust my team accordingly). While Tera does warp the game in very unwelcome ways similar to Stealth Rock, it does increase the skill floor and ceiling of the game by testing which Tera guy to whip out, when to do it, how respond to your opponent etc, making the game just as competitive as every other gen. Perhaps my opinion will change as the climb gets harsher, but I'm just rolling with it right now. That said, there's certainly some unwelcome bastards in OU that should be shown out like Volc.

4/5
I gave Darkrai a 4 as out of the guys in bannable contention (aside from OU 'pillars' like Gambit), I think its clearly the strongest. What I hate most about this bastard is how it makes picking a lead who's job isn't 'get rocks, then die' extremely frustrating since not beating it then and there will just cause headaches down the line. Coupled with the fact it can either go over top with Nasty Plot, dart in with boots + 4 attacks, wield choice items and then Trick them on a whim or even run utility options like Wisp/Knock makes this guy in top threat in a way that's difficult to contest unless you pack a hardcore special wall (who could also be scammed by Psyshock/Trick/Knock). The main thing keeping this from being a full 5/5 is its bad defensive typing + lack of bulk (though I feel if bulky Wisp sets take off, it will be a another proverbial nightmare to contend with). One avenue of counter-play I saw floating round in the Showdown OU chat was guys with resist Berries like Colbur Berry Ghold to eat a hit and clap back with Dazzling Gleam, though how practical this will be seems up in the air.

2/5
While it could be bumped into a 3, I ultimately feel it is balanced by the sheer virtue of limitations. The bread and butter SD sets certainly makes balance shit itself, but versus more offensive structures, that set is like the card game equivalent of a YGO normal monster. In response to offense, Wellspring can slot different tools to make itself more useful against various structures, the most potent being Encore letting contest the best 'mons in the tier like Gambit, Bolt, Zama etc as long as its relatively healthy to the point I think Encore is nearly mandatory on it. But fitting it in requires either cutting Swords Dance or a coverage move (cutting the former loses its overwhelming power while the latter makes SD sets get stopped cold by Dragon types/Tera Dragons). There's also the matter of Trailblaze causing a kerfuffle and while it can frustrate offensive structures, I still think it has way too much opportunity cost given the severe loss in power compared to Power Whip or losing the sustain given from Horn Leech and that's to say nothing of how it makes various other match-ups worse. I think the reason that people are getting tight over Trailblaze is because of how Zam is the premier physical sponge and if you play your cards right, you can scam the ID + BP set by hitting Trailblaze and then locking it into Encore if it used Iron Defense. That said, the match-up has many factors based on how much health either have or if Dauntless Defense is live or if Zam just decides to skip setting up and just attack, but all things being equal, if Dondozo comes back as the premier physical sponge, its going to expose the hell out of this Trailblaze baloney. Rillaboom and Tera Water Garg also expose this stuff, though Rilla doesn't like Zama running around and Garg is a passive-ish Tera hog.
On the subject of Balance structures getting bent by this kid, there's micro-adjustments they can make like having Alo run Body Slam to clip Wellspring switching in with a paralysis chance changing the match-up from a 10-0 to a 7-3 (and the odds can be improved further if you're willing to dabble with Tera Grass/Poison). Still not ideal, but much more workable. Hell, I fiddled with a Pult set which eschews spA EVs for enough bulk to take any coverage move Wellspring throws at it so you don't even need to plan for Wellspring predicting your switch since Pult won't die and can be topped off with Wish.

Bulky Status Spreader

Dragapult (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 244 HP / 40 Def / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hex
- U-turn
- Will-O-Wisp
- Thunder Wave

Even if Alo and friends still wind up eating shit at the hands of Wellspring, I still would move to keep this thing around as while many complain about the suffocating offense, suffocating defense is not much better as Alo + Glowking generate too much advantage for the level of bulk they have and there should be a means to throw wrench into that engine in order to force them to be mindful about errantly pivoting around. For the record, I'm not fear-mongering about a Alo+Glowking hellscape without Wellspring, but rather saying it is an important source of friction that helps maintain a certain balance in the tier.
There's more I'd like to say, but my thoughts on Wellspring boil down to this. If its being used as a pivot, its not broken due to a lack of killing power and taking hazard damage versus Grasspon who does similar things and can run Boots. If its trying to kill you with SD, there are clear limits based on how it can come in and when it can set-up. While does have a deep movepool to draw from, it move slots are limited and it has to pick between disruption or raw killing potential and its locked item slot and Tera type keep it firmly in line. I believe this Pokémon has a unique palette of strengths and weaknesses and should be kept in the tier.
As an aside, I think that CTC said it best during Blunder's vid on Gouge on how Wellspring (and the other mask Ogrepons) are basically modern-day mega 'mons in both form and function by virtue of their power and item restrictions (even down to the Knock soaking/Trick blanking that can come up)

4/5

While its definitely unwieldy and needs a fair amount of support to fully terrorize teams, I think the tier would be better off without it. The fact that it can run mixed DD sets instead of memey Loaded Dice sets to bend over the special walls tasked to stop this thing just makes defensive counter-play a giant pain. It certainly has to make a hard choice between Boots or Specs and it will get overrun by most offensive structures for its troubles. That said, Kyruem's removal will allow for balance to not be glued to Glowking out of fear of this thing and let them play other structures for a defensive backbone. Many top players pilot teams that smoke this thing which why they're all calling it cap, but unlike Wellspring, I don't see this thing doing anything good for the tier outside of making Gliscor shit itself. If any top players have a good reason to keep this guy, I'm all ears.

2/5
I really don't like this bitch, but much like Wellspring, it serves a very important role in the meta. In this age of Dark-type spam, we need a hero in the builder to save the people even if it's a glue-eating Ubers reject. Ultra obnoxious to face without a Ghost/Tera Ghost or 4x Fighting resist, but they're not too hard to slot in and funnily enough, the mutt is deathly afraid of Knock off so we move.

2/5
My heart wants this thing gone, but my head tells me, "Bro, there's like 6 different checks to this guy you can fit into your team. Nut up and lock the fuck in bro". Maybe someday, it could stand to be looked into, but not at the moment even if it is a Grade-A bastard.

1/5
See Gambit.

3/5
I wrote this guy in because I feel like its presence warps the meta in unwelcome ways and should be looked at (again). While certainly not 'broken', the way it outlasts its enemies with little effort and either vomits hazards or breaks open teams with Swords Dance pushes this thing squarely into unhealthy territory. Again, its not quite 'broken' and can be exploited/killed by a handful of 'mons, I do think this guy should be suspect tested (again) down the line, especially if more Ice Beam users like Darkrai and Kyurem are sent out.


I don't know how bringing down the mid-ass Uber guys will affect the meta, but I'd be down to experiment with guys like Zama-Crown, Lugia and Solgaleo once the current meta becomes less hostile.
There's also talk about how some 'mons can come back if Tera Blast is removed such Volc (who is regrettably acceptable without Tera Blast) and Regieleki, though I suspect the idea might be difficult to get off the ground due to there being no overbearing Tera Blast users ATM outside of maybe Tera Blast Fairy Gambit or Kyurem (who is most likely on the chopping block) as well as the many viewing TB as a package deal that comes with Terastal.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I don't know how bringing down the mid-ass Uber guys will affect the meta, but I'd be down to experiment with guys like Zama-Crown, Lugia and Solgaleo once the current meta becomes less hostile.

i still think don't think this would produce good and healthy results. let's run down the ubers that have dropped this gen that ended up either being rebanned or having some sort of controversy surrounding them (note that i personally think some of these aren't broken but a non-negligible amount of people would disagree):

• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 

and here are the dropped ubers that are universally agreed upon as unproblematic:

• (remember this guy being uber last gen? that was fucked up)
• 
• 

so based on this, if we drop any given uber we're most likely going to get something that is at the very least a controversial presence that we would probably do better without. my prediction is, any current uber dropping will end up creating far more problems than it solves and being banned again. i don't think it's a risk worth taking without extensive testing beforehand—certainly more testing than we did with darkrai, who has now managed to destabilize the meta twice in two separate ways

 

[Heatranator]

There is somebody out there who thinks this is broken, and to them I say, "what?"

But I totally agree with your point, there are some people thinking palafin might not be broken, but even if it ended up being alright, the major shifts that would occur and the potential of it being broken is what makes me hesistant to drop it (or anything else for that matter). The benefits are heavily outweighed by the risks and we should deal with what we currently have.

I will also stand on the hill that lugia would be omega broken at worst and majorly centralising and annoying at best, so don't even think of dropping it.

 

[Earthflax]

My thoughts on the meta:

• I always and forever will think that Tera is a broken and uncompetitive mechanic, but I understand that the generation has progressed to a point where action on it is likely not on the table. However, in that case I think council should outright say so because otherwise we will continue to see "Tera is the problem" posts and people who will hold out on suspect voting in hope of action on Tera.
• About the PRC thread on Tera Blast/Booster Energy - neither are broken. Mons that use the latter for its increased offensive capacity such as frankly would just find another way to boost their power and little would change about their state in the metagame, and if ur arguing that Speed booster mons are broken or detrimental in any way then LOL. As for Tera Blast - if you want to ban a move then you need to ensure that all users of the move are made stupid by its use or that the move itself is so stupid that it can force ppl to build around/against a mon that is dix in every other way, a la Last Respects or Shed Tail. There are 40 odd mons in OU and maybe 5 of them use Tera Blast. To be very honest I can't stand these "middle ground" ass proposals that really accomplish nothing actionable and will leave the tier wanting more action in the literal immediate aftermath.
• The state of certain archetypes in this meta is concerning. I think there are far too many "balance breakers" in this tier that are hard to outplay outside of out-offense and extreme defense.
• I think the council, while pragmatic, have been moving the tier into a good direction and are doing what is reasonable and proper to ensure relative stability. A bit more speed on the action would be very nice though, but it's understandable considering WCOP and tournament season in general.
• I'm not too worried with how the meta will end up; we have damn near 2 years until there is even a chance that SV is phased out. I trust that everything will settle by that time, but hope that we as players get to enjoy that sort of meta while SV is still the current gen.

Specific mons that I think are uncompetitive or at the least would like to see a suspect (unordered and ignoring "meta impact" or whatever reason yall let kingambit stick around LOL):

• : Yeah this mon is way too much. I won't bore anyone with the details of what it can do because we all know, but that level of set variance and utility combined with the insane speed tier and wallbreaking power is insanely dumb IMO.
• : Another balance breaker type 'mon in a similar vein, but can also go insane into any archetype depending on set. Way too many tools, way too oppressive in the builder.
• : Honestly no strong feelings about the mon but I can definitely recognize what it does and why it is too much; I remember seeing someone in this thread listing counterplay to Zama and after each item it was always "except for xyz variant" LMAO nah get him out
• : Stupid broken anti lose mon that has a deceptively high level of set variance and restrains teambuilding to an insane degree.
• : Not as enthusiastically in support for this one but definitely feels like it should be on the chopping block soon; the mixed sets are actually kinda crazy with it and IMO the best of the lot but you really can't go wrong with any Kyurem set and all of them require different counterplay be it in the form of mons or gameplay.
• : Personally would not want a ban, but this guy is lowkey a sleeper broke mon that is only overshadowed by the fact that there are all of the above brokens wandering around the tier.
• : Before anyone calls me crazy, I don't really think this guy is broken, but once the dust settles on all the brokens I think it is time to take a long hard look at the state of the meta as a whole and how much this guy warps it. It enables and neuters playstyles in a way which I think is actually, truly unique, and it defines SV in the same way Tauros/Snorlax define RBY/GSC. The only reason we don't really see or think about this a lot at the moment is, again, all the brokens running around LOL.

thats it from me for now; another effortpost in 6 months coming to a metagame discussion thread near you