Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Kyurem suspect now up]

my survey scores:

enjoyment: 8. this meta's fun as fuck man, i can't really explain it but things just kinda fit together well and i'm actually enjoying myself on ladder for the first time since, like, april

balance: 7. this meta is, in my opinion, more balanced and more competitive than at any other point during the lifetime of the gen. the reason i didn't score it higher, though, is because there are a lot of borderline mons, and deep down i have a feeling that there's some broken shit lurking somewhere that people are waiting for spl to unleash

:deoxys-speed: 3. this motherfucker can play virtually any role and set the bar for every role it plays. i don't think any individual set is broken in the traditional sense, but the insane amount of variety makes the mon effectively unpredictable and i wouldn't be opposed to a suspect somewhere along the line

:kyurem: 3. it's basically the same as last gen kyurem but without roost, which is definitely worse, but the trade-off is that snow and loaded dice exist now and tera lets it hit even harder than before, shed its rocks weakness, gain physical ground coverage, whatever. it's a devastating breaker or sweeper and i think it's probably going to end up broken, but there's just so much stuff going around that it feels hard to fit it on teams

:volcarona: 2. still kinda does the same bullshit, but there's a lot of stuff doing even better bullshit now and volc is having a really hard time keeping up. i almost wanted to vote 5 and try to get it quickbanned before spl a second time as a joke, but i decided against it

:roaring moon: 3. also still doing the same bullshit it used to, and with a way better matchup spread than volc, but something about it isn't screaming "get it out of the tier" to me at the moment. still wouldn't be opposed to it going or even that surprised if it gets qb'd

:gouging fire: i don't remember what i voted this because i've been typing this up for so long, but it was either a 2 or a 1. yes, it hits obscenely hard in the sun banded with tera fire. it 2hkos dondozo with a physical fire move. and yet, somehow i just don't see it as broken, and i'm not entirely sure why—it never feels overwhelming when i'm against it or when i use it

:serperior: 2 i think, or maybe 1, not sure what i put. it's fast and can snowball really easily, tera blast gives it menacing coverage, but i just don't see it being banworthy right now, just very strong. it's very straightforward once it teras, and if the serp user chooses to tera something else, serp just kinda sits there and does nothing against a concerning number of mons. also, stellar tera blast is a fake set. there, i said it. it doesn't do shit compared to tera fire or ground. use stellar on enamorus, not this

:raging bolt: 2. very strong, stabs hit a lot of stuff for good damage, great setup potential, thunderclap is an excellent priority tool, but there are too many things that resist or are immune to thunderclap, so they can just outspeed bolt and kill it. i've never had a problem dealing with this mon

:enamorus: 2. the only actually good user of stellar tera blast, but aside from that she's just kind of the same thing, and stellar tera blast is honestly a bit lackluster even on her. can definitely see her becoming a problem, though, keep an eye on this one

:iron boulder: 1. biggest fraud in the meta in my opinion. it just doesn't feel like it really, well, does anything

:gholdengo: 5. hazards are stronger than they've ever been and i think ghold is still at the very least partially at fault. being able to viably run defog on one and a half mons might not be the silver bullet to answer the hazard question, but… what else are we gonna do? just stick boots on everything forever and pretend it's ok? ban 5 other mons or an entire entry hazard? a ghold ban is at least a solution worth trying

:kingambit: 5, and i will proudly admit this is entirely personal bias. fuck this mon

kokoloko tiering: more like nononono tiering. i've made my thoughts on this matter clear on the dedicated thread about it, but the tl;dr is that this is the first time all gen where we don't need it and we shouldn't be letting spl dictate tiering policy again
 
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for the love of god "darkrai is better than people think" and "skymin should be in ou" are not sentences that have to go together
 
for the love of god "darkrai is better than people think" and "skymin should be in ou" are not sentences that have to go together

My point has always been that Darkrai does not belong in OU. It's a high variance mon that can cheese its way to high ladder if you play enough games.

I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy of allowing Darkrai but banning Skymin. If you think 60% chance to land Hypnosis is fine, then why not 60% flinch chance?
 
My point has always been that Darkrai does not belong in OU. It's a high variance mon that can cheese its way to high ladder if you play enough games.

I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy of allowing Darkrai but banning Skymin. If you think 60% chance to land Hypnosis is fine, then why not 60% flinch chance?

Skymin does damage on top of flinching with Air Slash. Darkrai doesn't put enemy mons to asleep while also hitting them hard at the same time. Skymin also has a 80% chance to drop the enemy mon's special defense and is also faster than Darkrai while also being bulkier.

Skymin is so crazy that it was even banned from Ubers UU. That is how cancerous Skymin is.
 
My point has always been that Darkrai does not belong in OU. It's a high variance mon that can cheese its way to high ladder if you play enough games.

I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy of allowing Darkrai but banning Skymin. If you think 60% chance to land Hypnosis is fine, then why not 60% flinch chance?
Darkrai's 60% Sleep chance is on Hypnosis, a move that does nothing else and will have it losing a turn 40% of the time. Skymin's 60% flinch chance is on Air Slash, a STAB damaging move with a 5% chance to whiff. These are completely incomparable. You are taking the piss.
 
Skymin does damage on top of flinching with Air Slash. Darkrai doesn't put enemy mons to asleep while also hitting them hard at the same time.

Actually, yes, because Bad Dreams. And Nasty Plot is superior to an 80% chance to drop the enemy's special defense (which is removed on switching out or death and obviously does not work every time).

In the above game, after putting Clefable to sleep, I noticed that it took no damage from Bad Dreams. This tells me that it does not have Unaware and that I am able to end the game right then and there.
 
My point has always been that Darkrai does not belong in OU. It's a high variance mon that can cheese its way to high ladder if you play enough games.

I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy of allowing Darkrai but banning Skymin. If you think 60% chance to land Hypnosis is fine, then why not 60% flinch chance?

60% clauseproof flinch on a 95% accurate damaging stab move and 80% 2 stage sp Def drop on a damaging 120 bp stab move vs a 60% claused sleep or suck is not a good comparison.
 
see, this is proof that hypnosis isn't just a joke set, just like i've been trying to-
Totally more balanced than Skymin.
ok, fine. that's how we're gonna play this then, huh?
My point has always been that Darkrai does not belong in OU. It's a high variance mon that can cheese its way to high ladder if you play enough games.

I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy of allowing Darkrai but banning Skymin. If you think 60% chance to land Hypnosis is fine, then why not 60% flinch chance?
so all of your arguments were about darkrai? this post was actually totally about darkrai? or this one? what does covert cloak have to do with darkrai at all? you went way too deep into the skymin part of the argument to possibly be telling the truth about not wanting it in the tier
 
:deoxys-speed: 3
Honestly as good as the supportive sets are, Deo-S is far from broken. Where Deo-S comes up as broken is honestly with offensive sets combined with set diversity. It’s like Dragapult but you have access to Nasty Plot and is faster by a mile and has tons of coverage and could also easily be running hazards or screens but you typically wouldn’t know at team preview.
:kyurem: 3
Bax-lite. It’s noticably weaker, lacks sword dance as an option, and lacks burn immunity like Bax did, but keeps several positive traits and has its own. You could be facing a Dragon Dance set, but it could totally be Specs. A major weakness is that Kyurem is still slow in a fast pace meta.
:volcarona: 2
Seems way more managable thanks to new Pokemon that dropped.

:roaring moon: 4
Really dumb Pokemon to face. It’s by far the best Dragon Dancer in the tier and often wins after 1 slightly bad positioning. You need a very physically bulky wall or fast scarfer that can hit it neutrally or Ice Shards to beat it and not be instantly swept.
:gouging fire: 2
Pretty strong Pokemon but definitely not ban worthy. Best way I can describe it is if Lando and Mega Charizard had a baby. Can do a bunch of things including Dragon Dancing sets which are most popular. It’s a bit weaker than Charizard and slower, but her far better natural bulk.
:serperior: 3
This thing can snowball hard and has Glare, aka second dumbest legal move in the game. I don’t think Stellar is that great of an option, but Tera Blast is great on Serperior anyways. You get a much stronger Hidden Power essentially and drop grass’s weaknesses too for likes of Ground or Fire. Also doesn’t help that Heatran I noticed has been used way less.
:raging bolt: 2
Similar but a lot more tame cousin of Kingambit or Kyurem with priority. It’s honestly a bit underwhelming unless you use more offensive sets. It’s also pretty slow and can’t do much about Ground types unless you predict like Great Tusk coming in and use Dragon move.
:iron boulder: 4
I have been using this and it’s pretty busted. I think people don’t give this mon enough credit. Mighty Cleave + Close Combat + Earthquake threatens almost everything, and honestly one of the few mons that really abuses Tera to the fullest. Tera Fighting especially as you flip your priority weaknesses. No Kingambit Sucker Punch. No Grassy Glide Rillaboom. No Aqua Jet. No Bullet Punch. No Shadow Sneak. No First Impression. Priority is a huge part of what holds Iron Boulder back, along with Dondozo.
I’m usually a sceptic of people who say “X is broken because of Tera” as usually its something busted like Chien-Pao, but I can definitely say the sentiment applies to Iron Boulder imo.
:enamorus: 3
Now that this thing has Tera Stellar, it is something that can snowball hard like Serperior. What hold it back is its speed stat, so if you’re not on a Webs team, you kind of need Scarf. Also a 100 BP non-STAB neutral to almost everything is honestly pretty weak. I often am forced out or need to run Modest to do damage because of it.
:gholdengo: 2
Gluedengo yet again keeps proving why the Meta needs him more than ever. A splashable Pokemon that can check most things here is always a good thing. And also its stanglehold on hazards isn’t as bad as it was before the DLC. Great Tusk being buffed with Temper Flare helps in that regard. It is a shame that there was no Defog TM (and poor Flygon lost Defog), but banning Dengo won’t bring a Defog TM to the game.
:kingambit: 3
Same as it ever was, but Enamorus now nearly perfect tool for dealing with Kingambit late game. Also Archaludon is a great check to most physical attackers, Kingambit included. Besides that nothing much changed.


Darkrai 6-0's the other team at 2K+ rating

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2021365495-gi9mehokxw0oa0rv5zxuhdp5rgq2it4pw

Mid mon btw. Totally more balanced than Skymin.
Wow a really Darkrai-weak team lost to Darkrai after big misplay and flinch hax and an early forfeit.
Oh and Shaymin-Sky easily beats the entire team by simply clicking Air Slash, sometimes switching out against Weavile if it had Ice Shards and coming to score more KOs.
 
IK the survey said that Tera would be discussed at a later date, but I don't really think it should be.

The Meta is currently in a stable spot, which has been a rarity this generation, and there is no guarantee that it will continue remain this way after any tiering action. In my opinion, this is the best possible time for the Tera suspect to take place, and I would heavily favour that as the next course of action from the council, rather than any bans.
 
Wow a really Darkrai-weak team lost to Darkrai after big misplay and flinch hax and an early forfeit.

The best part of this is that you don't understand the irony of using "flinch hax" to downplay Darkrai's power, while simultaneously claiming that Skymin is broken.

Isn't playing for flinches exactly what Skymin does?

Every team is weak to Darkrai when Hypnosis hits, btw. If Hypnosis doesn't land on Clefable, then I am playing 5v6. But the odds are in my favor.
 
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The best part of this is that you don't understand the irony of using "flinch hax" to downplay Darkrai's power, while simultaneously claiming that Skymin is broken.

Isn't playing for flinches exactly what Skymin does?

Every team is weak to Darkrai when Hypnosis hits, btw.
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So since I refuse to engage seriously with this absolute nonsense discussion, thoughts on Gouging Fire? I'm kinda surprised to see people rank it so high or that it's on the survey. Its breaking power is huge, but I always thought the bad Speed and huge 4MSS held it back enough.
 
The best part of this is that you don't understand the irony of using "flinch hax" to downplay Darkrai's power, while simultaneously claiming that Skymin is broken.

Isn't playing for flinches exactly what Skymin does?

Every team is weak to Darkrai when Hypnosis hits, btw.
20% chance of flinching is different from 57% chance of flinching. You're literally more likely to be flinched by Air Slash than non-flinched. You're about as likely to flinch clicking Air Slash 3 times in row as you are to flinch 1 time with Dark Pulse. It's hax to NOT be flinched by Skymin.
 
Roaring Moon is the only problematic mon currently imo; I don't feel the need to elaborate because it just does the same stuff it's done all gen. I was ready to call for a Deo-S ban but it's honestly not much more overbearing than the hazard setters we've had all gen, and its offensive sets don't have the immediate power of fast stuff like Pao or Eleki. Kyurem is a bit stupid but it's worthy of a suspect rather than immediate action. Of the new Paradoxes only gfire seems like it might become a problem as the meta develops but rn it seems answerable. The same applies for Enam and especially Serp but neither seem overbearing so far (also just run fire/ground tera on serp stellar is a noob trap). Gambit, Ghold, and Volc all seem much more answerable now
 
20% chance of flinching is different from 57% chance of flinching. You're literally more likely to be flinched by Air Slash than non-flinched. You're about as likely to flinch clicking Air Slash 3 times in row as you are to flinch 1 time with Dark Pulse. It's hax to NOT be flinched by Skymin.

In the context of that game: he has a ~55% health Milotic against a +2 Darkrai. Dark Pulse does about 45% damage. He can recover off my damage... but I am dark type, which means he can not kill me with Mirror Coat. He can't do enough damage to kill me before I kill him.

The correct move was to click Dark Pulse until I got a flinch. Which is exactly what happened.
 
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This is honestly the best OU has been this gen in terms of balance and enjoyment. A ton of fun options to play with. I’ve used Prim, Latios, Incin, Coba, Molt, and even Hippo with some success. Its not exactly a balanced meta, but very few things strike as unhealthy or broken.

I’ll keep the explanations short cause I’ve already discussed them in the KokoLoko forums.

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4/5
Stupidly fast, stupidly strong with NP, several sets that can heck you over one way or another, the best spike setter in the tier since Tusk wants absolutely no smoke with it and is bulky/fast enough to get more than 2 spikes up with ease.

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3/5
Specs has no switch ins and has several sets, but the amount of hazards in the tier makes it awkward to use, especially without Roost. Plus I often resort to other dragons like Raging Bolt or Hydrapple who offer larger role compression in the builder. Might be broken months later tho.

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3/5
Higher Knock distrubution, more specially bulky threats, more priority, and generally being very tera reliant. It could be a problem later due to the mu fishing nature of the Moth, but right now it needs Tera to actually sweep which can backfire. Tera Ground/Water leaves you vulnerable to Rilla’s Gglide, Tera Ground leaves you vulnerable to Ice Shards while Tera Water leaves you open to Raging Bolt.

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4/5
139 attack at +1 go brr.

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2/5
I voted 3/5, but its more of a 2/5. Has a noticeable 4mss. Often resorts to Heat Crash to avoid the recoil from Blitz, which is a noticeable dmg decrease vs Tusk. For Dragon STAB, Dragon Claw is a bit lackluster while Outrage is easy to exploit. Players are also utilizing more physically bulky mons like Prim which eats its STAB combination. Yeah its cracked under sun, but so is Walking Wake and that’s fine rn.

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2/5
Annoying, but not meta warping. Alot of balance cores have either Skeledirge, bulky Flying types, or Glowking alongside a fast progress maker like Pult, Meow, or Weavile which can threaten Serp with a bad time. Plus there is alot of mons that just outspeed Serp. I don’t really see this as broken, even with Glare + Tera.

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2/5
I love this thing. Fantastic role compression. Fairy + bulky Grounds do a fine job in keeping it from going overboard.

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1/5
With most teams carrying bulky physical walls, Balloon Ghold, and priority, I can’t really see this as broken at all. It wants Zen for Tusk, but it often has to resort to Cleave/CC/EQ to hit everything else.

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2/5
Notable rock weakness considering barely any of them are running CM HDB these days. It gets pigeonholed into Scarf sets due to its meh speed tier. Stellar can snowball after 2-3 turns, but it doesn’t gain any defensive benefits and often needs the right conditions to pull off a sweep.

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3/5
Right now there are a ton of fast, strong dark types in the tier. New additions like Volc and G-fire can exploit it to setup. Tusk gained Temper Fire which if used, gives it a sure fire way to obliterate Ghold (Heh, fire). Though due to the fact it has warped the hazard/hazard remover dynamic for over a year now, it could end up broken again.

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3/5
Another old broken mainstay that is held back by current meta trends. Volc, G-Fire, Raging Bolt, and Skarm are some examples of mons that have helped deal with Gambit. It has a harder time getting a setup and needs to actually think on what it wants to beat. Jolly to beat Skarm, Tera Fire to beat Volc/G-Fire, prayers for Raging Bolt. It isn’t hard to find teams that naturally have 2-3 Gambit checks, because they’re tasked with other roles.

As I said about it in the tiering forums, I think the Kokoloko approach is a bad idea. TL;DR, it’s too early and nothing is so broken that immediate tiering action is needed rn.
 
I don't think Scarfkrai is bad as you make it out to be. One of the best things about Scarfkrai is its supreme Speed tier. It is fast enough to outspeed +1 Roaring Moon alongside Booster Speed Valiant and most notably, Booster Iron Boulder. If Specs Darkrai wasn't KOing things, it would be a problem, but Scarfkrai's utility comes down to what it can outspeed. It will need most opponents to be weakened before it can cinch a KO (unless it's a super effective move), but a majority of Scarfed revenge killers (that aren't privileged Booster cleaners) need this too.
That's a good point, but what I think I failed to mention in the first post was that it's wayyy to easy to defensively tera against. Most of the time even a neutral tera stops it from being able to revenge kill things because it relies so much on having SE coverage. For example, iron boulder can tera, avoid the 2HKO, set up, and easily KO it with mighty cleave. And things with Tera Fairy straight-up use it as setup fodder. Even after a round of resisted dark pulse damage, non-tera poison sludge bomb rarely KOs anything with even passable spdef (uninvested moth or ghold levels), which means even sacking something to change moves rarely helps. You have to rely on something with priority to finish the threat, and at that point why use it as a revenge killer at all?
 
How much do you enjoy SV OU right now (with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best)?

9. Most fun I've had in OU since probably before home but mons are always fun even when there's bullshit going around.

How competitive do you find SV OU to be right now (with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best)?

7. There's a lot of stuff that's just on the verge of being stupid and I think there's a high likelihood that either some wicked set will be figured out or banning something will cause a cascade of stuff becoming broken.

How do you feel about Deoxys-S?

3. I hate seeing it on team preview, are you nasty plot? LO 4 attacks? Screens? Hazards? It picks up free momentum every game it's in just by the fact you have no idea what it is until it's done something. LO 4 attacks is by far the most dangerous set imo it cleans games a lil bit too easily at times imo, if it wasn't a psychic type and or had 2nd stab it'd be an easy 5 for me.

How do you feel about Kyurem?

5. Specs is bullshit, ddance behind veil is bullshit this mon in general behind veil is bullshit. It has more bulk than Bax and can do Bax's Dragon/Ground/Ice coverage on both sides thanks to tera, the only reason it's arguably worse than Bax is because it can be burned and doesn't have SD but it's still bullshit and broken imo.

How do you feel about Volcarona?

1. Mon wasn't ever broken and it's even less broken now, before we got Heatran was the worst it ever was is it could run any tera type it wanted but it's almost forced to run tera ground now and there's so much phazing, knock and hazards going around now that he's really not hard to deal with.

How do you feel about Roaring Moon?

5. Mon is still bullshit imo, Skarm and Scarf Meow make it a little bit less egregious but it still finds way to many opportunities to dd up and steal games.

How do you feel about Gouging Fire?

3. It's really stupid under sun and sun is super strong right now, but Wake is also stupid under sun and Wake turned out to be fine especially after the sun faded away a bit. Being rocks weak holds it back a bit.

How do you feel about Serperior?

1. Stellar Tera is a trap as it really needs coverage and grass isn't the best type. Glare is kinda dumb, sub is annoying but there's so much phazing in the tier it's not too bad imo.

How do you feel about Raging Bolt?

1. Super bulky, nice typing, slow as shit and it's priority being hard cockblocked by grounds makes it a strong but fair mon imo. If it had healing it would be dumb

How do you feel about Iron Boulder?

1. It's typing is super shit being weak to all the priority and knock hinders this thing massively. It would be mid af if we banned booster energy and would probably end up in UU.

How do you feel about Enamorus?

1. It being a tera hog and not being able to flip its weaknesses whilst being a lil bit slow if boots but frail af if scarf hold it back from being dumb. I get why some people think it's a big problem tho.

How do you feel about Gholdengo?

1. People need to stop crying about hazards.

How do you feel about Kingambit?

3. It can still steal games and I inherently dislike how it rewards poor play but it's way less egregious than it was thanks to all the new mons.

I nominated booster energy as it's really stupid and cheap, having a free scarf of LO whilst also being less at risk from knock is way too cheap and it makes Moon, Valiant, Boulder and Moth, mons who are otherwise fine (maybe not Moon) really stupid.
 
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So since I refuse to engage seriously with this absolute nonsense discussion, thoughts on Gouging Fire? I'm kinda surprised to see people rank it so high or that it's on the survey. Its breaking power is huge, but I always thought the bad Speed and huge 4MSS held it back enough.

It isn't broken, but I think Gouging Fire is the new mon with the most potential in the metagame. 91 base speed is not bad on a wallbreaker. At +1 you outspeed Dragapult. Booster Energy gives it immediate breaking power and the natural bulk supports potential utility sets as well as set-up opportunities and also helps against Priority attacks. Protosynthesis in general helps it get past Unaware mons. Typing is phenomenal for a physical sweeper/breaker with great offensive coverage, burn immunity, and weaknesses that are usually already accounted for on most teams (ground, dragon, rock.) Newly introduced fast Ice coverage in the tier is threatening Ground types in the team-builder, the same ground types you need for your electric-immunity and also to offensively check GF. Grassy Terrain being the most used Terrain also doesn't hurt. Sun also does more for this mon than it does for any other Paradox mon in the tier due to typing and access to Morning Sun.

Outrage is not that risky when boosted. Only fairies are immune, which will stop your Outrage and allow you to select your other coverage and only resisted by Steel types which will melt to your Fire STAB after your Outrage has ended.

It's hazard weak and while it can outspeed the unboosted metagame (bar Deoxys-S) after +1 DD, the tier is so rich with options for speed control that you may still need to get to +2 to sweep some teams. The same goes for its ATK stat, without Protosynthesis Active you may need to get to +2 to cut through the fat on most teams. It has impressive natural bulk but is still neutral to most priority attacks. But it's already quite strong, and with time will come optimization as well as potential bans that will give GF a greater chance at sweeping the metagame and in my eyes the future trends in GF's favor.
 
I see so many people giving this meta high fun scores and saying that this meta is "the best this generation" that I am genuinely baffled. Are we playing the same meta? Have I just not figured out what's the most fun to use? To that end, I'm asking all of you to post some teams you've had the most fun with so far. I really want to enjoy this meta, especially since most of our current batch isn't going anywhere based on those survey scores.
 
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