My man is ordering their last meal as we speakI tried my best, but it was always an uphill battle. RIP’a’rino Big Eepy. Hope nothing negative comes from this.
Well, now that it is settled let’s be nice to everyone, and move on to the next topic. How fucked ya’ll think Kyurem is?
is definitely not broken! It has an extremely viable check: Tera Fairy . Now please don’t make posts calling Kyurem broken.I tried my best, but it was always an uphill battle. RIP’a’rino Big Eepy. Hope nothing negative comes from this.
Well, now that it is settled let’s be nice to everyone, and move on to the next topic. How fucked ya’ll think Kyurem is?
This was actually touched on in one of the posts linked in the post. It went into depth about how tera hex Valiant had the best odds to beat all it's checks based purely on luck. And it also talked about how sun saw massive development when people realized it lilligant could also pull off sleep cheese, and pairing well with I think kingambit. The other thing they pointed out was how fast usage of the sleep inducing moves shot up iirc when hypnosis darkrai initially started gaining momentum. I'll try to find it again to link.we have heard before there is a burden of proof to demonstrate that a proposed banned thing is broken on the majority of Pokémon it’s on.
in this case sleep was determined as uncompetitive on Darkrai in particular. It had a unique way of making a lot of progress once it landed a sleep due to making use of the 3 slots it had left + its ability synergising with sleep.
in this case, determining that Darkrai made sleep uncompetitive caused sleep to be banned. Despite no clear consensus that sleep was breaking other Pokémon like Amoonguss, torkoal, valiant, Breloom and liligant hisui.
if the issue is a policy simplification, then the burden of proof should be that in gen 9, sleep is inherently broken. But we have no empirical data to support that, since the only meta where unlimited sleep is permitted is VGC.
once when i was young i was at a waterpark and decided to go on the lazy river ride. it was a super crowded day, so the entire river was jam-packed full of people with inflatable tubes lining it bank to bank. we were packed in like sardines. this was all well and good until i went underwater and couldn't find a place to get back up for air. there was just a solid mass of plastic and flesh above me with no openings i could see. i must have been under for at least two solid minutes, holding my breath until it felt like my lungs were about to burst. at an age far too soon to be contemplating what the inevitable end is like, all i could think was, "this is it. this is where i die and there's nothing i can do about it."I tried my best, but it was always an uphill battle. RIP’a’rino Big Eepy. Hope nothing negative comes from this.
Well, now that it is settled let’s be nice to everyone, and move on to the next topic. How fucked ya’ll think Kyurem is?
This was actually touched on in one of the posts linked in the post. It went into depth about how tera hex Valiant had the best odds to beat all it's checks based purely on luck. And it also talked about how sun saw massive development when people realized it lilligant could also pull off sleep cheese, and pairing well with I think kingambit. The other thing they pointed out was how fast usage of the sleep inducing moves shot up iirc when hypnosis darkrai initially started gaining momentum. I'll try to find it again to link.
Edit: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/revisiting-the-sleep-clause-for-sv-ou.3734310/post-9932276
Rereading myself to make sure I understood it properly.
No? That’s what the sleep move is for on Valiant and Lilligant-H; it dealt with most types of counterplay to them. If anything, the two of them had BETTER two slot coverage options than Darkrai.That was brought up, sure, but nothing became of it and the momentum died. Because only Darkrai had the unique traits to deal with most types of counterplay to it
Freeze and Paralysis largely can’t be deleted without some kind of pet mod, which kind of would go against a huge part of the reason we removed sleep clause to begin with. Additionally, sleep status moves were SOLELY high-variance turn stealing RNG checks, whereas Paralysis is tied to speed control and is less impactful in terms of stealing turns on average while Freeze is solely tied to 10% chances on damaging moves and isn’t manually activatable in any way. If it was, the moves that could do so would probably just be banned like the sleep moves.in which case, it’s time to delete freeze and paralysis? I mean after all they’re inherently uncompetitive, according to how sleep was assessed.
Absolutely agreed.Sleep no more!
The council does murder sleep”- Macbethish
The entire reason the council was initially put in place was simply to save the player-base time, with the understanding the player-base would still ultimately be in control, but on things that were incredibly obvious it would save the weeks of a suspect test.
It wasn’t supposed to be “these are the smartest and best players who know better than the rest so they decide how the meta forms”. It concerns me we seem to be moving in the latter direction. A major mechanic like this changing absolutely deserved to have the community make the decision!
Finch addressed that on Twitter here:Not opposed to the sleep ban at all, but definitely seems like the council has been making very arbitrary decisions for what to quick ban vs what to put to a suspect test (Volcarona absolutely comes to mind here). Would appreciate more transparency on what kind of situation results in each kind of action, because as far as I can tell right now it's completely based on the whims of the council.
How or why can you confidently say the right decision was made when you said yourself anything between 3.2 and 3.7 can go either way?
This is the lowest ever score that has resulted in a quickban apart from the first generation's survey which had abnormally low ratings. Rejoice in that you achieved what you were after, but saying it was absolutely the right decision is a stretch based on the data.
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Did you read the rest of my post? The point is that comparing Pokemon bans and larger policy movements is not ok; they are very much not the same. The former is the intended target of a suspect (alongside generation specific things like Tera/DMax) while the latter is ingrained in policy with layers of precedent and so on.How or why can you confidently say the right decision was made when you said yourself anything between 3.2 and 3.7 can go either way?
This is the lowest ever score that has resulted in a quickban apart from the generation's first survey which had abnormally low ratings. Rejoice in that you achieved what you were after, but saying it was absolutely the right decision is a stretch based on the data.
View attachment 595433
Did you read the rest of my post? The point is that comparing Pokemon bans and larger policy movements is not ok; they are very much not the same. The former is the intended target of a suspect (alongside generation specific things like Tera/DMax) while the latter is ingrained in policy with layers of precedent and so on.
Getting reqs is a 30-50 game competency test to determine if someone is qualified to see if a Pokemon is broken or balanced. It has nothing to do with deeper tiering policy or framework, which ties back further than many of us have been around.
not the newly created account to shitpostVery sad day today and the day gen 9 feels like it's came to a premature end, in truth it's been on life support for a while due to our terrible council who have continously failed to address issues such as Ghold (hazard stack) and Tera appropriately but simply bringing up and banning sleep feels like a whole level of over stepping.
I think it's important now more than ever to think about what smogon actually is, it isn't gamefreak it isn't nintendo it's generally a community that tries to balance the game in a competitive way for 6 vs 6 but in quick banning sleep it feels more like the snap decision of a few morons like Finch who really hasn't done a thing right this gen rather than the community making a decision.
Hopefully gen 10 will have a competent council, they really couldn't do a worse job than this one.
Did you read the rest of my post? The point is that comparing Pokemon bans and larger policy movements is not ok; they are very much not the same. The former is the intended target of a suspect (alongside generation specific things like Tera/DMax) while the latter is ingrained in policy with layers of precedent and so on.
Getting reqs is a 30-50 game competency test to determine if someone is qualified to see if a Pokemon is broken or balanced. It has nothing to do with deeper tiering policy or framework, which ties back further than many of us have been around.
CrazyVery sad day today and the day gen 9 feels like it's came to a premature end, in truth it's been on life support for a while due to our terrible council who have continously failed to address issues such as Ghold (hazard stack) and Tera appropriately but simply bringing up and banning sleep feels like a whole level of over stepping.
I think it's important now more than ever to think about what smogon actually is, it isn't gamefreak it isn't nintendo it's generally a community that tries to balance the game in a competitive way for 6 vs 6 but in quick banning sleep it feels more like the snap decision of a few morons like Finch who really hasn't done a thing right this gen rather than the community making a decision of what they want to see in the tier.
I don't have an issue with sleep going but more than any other decision should so clearly have been a suspect or something put to the player base not the faceless dictators who have proven themselves incapable of handling the metagame for a year now.
Hopefully gen 10 will have a competent council, they really couldn't do a worse job than this one.
Haha me and put me down all you like but I have no idea what you just wrote - that just sounded like a mesh of buzzwords. If you want to break that down for me feel free but if not cool.
It's very weird to me that back in late October, 3.68 was just a suspect for Roaring Moon as "we were not comfortable quickbanning it" when now we're seeing an entire class of moves banned on a 3.7 with no suspect beforehand. TBH, this feels like a massive overstep.
A massive community you also decided to ignore considering many were not aware of the ban to certain strat in lower tiers. Also, many of those don't even play on smogon anymore, maybe because of changes like this. Maybe is for the better but you can't be so sure, maybe they just want a setting more akin to console while remaining competitive.This is a really rude generalization and also just untrue given how massive the community is.
... Not really? You can suspect test easily considering there's such things as Sleep users. Darkrai, Iron Valiant, Torkoal, Skeledirge and Amoonguss are all users of sleep, and we can indeed analyze how much impact the usage of sleep move had on our matches. Considering you had it as an option you could indeed suspect test them if you wanted to be an actual democracy.False equivelancy. A suspect would be a huge misuse of policy for this. Think about it: suspect reqs are a basic competency test to gauge broken vs balanced. There is no policy backbone or connection to suspect reqs at all, making it like trying to fit a square object in a round hole to suspect something like sleep.
We did not suspect other things deemed uncompetitive like evasion, so why would this suddenly be any different? You trying to differentiate it holds no weight as there is no clause that something is "major" vs "minor" or whatever these means holds specific weight in tiering. You are entitled to your opinion on what is right and what is wrong of course, but the right decision was made within current tiering infastructure without a doubt.