Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I don't wanna clutter up with a bunch of low tier mons, this is OU after all, but I'll ask opinions on how Scream Tail might fare nowadays (still an OU relevant topic I suppose). Fast, bulky, plenty of support, Wish passing, perish or Encore to stop setups, Screen setting. I'm just spit balling here but now that things seem to be settling down despite the troublesome mons being spoken about, off-meta counter picks looks to be in season, and it may have a niche I'm too lazy to explore.

Like Clefable with more support.

i've tried using scream tail in the past, but it's just too passive. it usually ends up being just kind of a support blob that makes no progress and that doesn't work this gen. it doesn't really have a good way to take advantage of encore turns without gimping your own momentum alongside your opponent's, mola's so good as a wishpasser that any other wishpassing tech is rendered bad by merit of not being mola, atales is way better at screens and screens fell off anyway, pult does fast twave better, a ton of mons do fast (or bulky) rocks better, and most of the other things scream tail can do are covered by hatterene. the biggest problem with the mon is that it just does no damage. even most stallmons have ways to do damage—either they have toxic, or some other form of passive damage, or body press, or some form of setup, or just a serviceable attacking stat in general. you gotta really distinguish yourself, like alomomomola, if you want to succeed with a damage output that low.

that being said.

scream tail has the capability to boost either one of its defensive stats or speed with protosynthesis if you tailor its evs right. this gives it a lot of flexibility, in theory, on sun teams. it's much faster and much bulkier than current sun staple hatterene, so if you're confident in dropping some hazard control from a team structure that desperately needs hazard control (advice: do not do this), scream tail can serve as a hatterene alternative that improves on all of hatterene's defensive matchups and simultaneously acts as speed control, another thing that sun very much likes to have. with full speed investment and protosynthesis active, scream tail outspeeds booster iron moth and anything slower, which lets it spread paralysis against offense a lot better than hatterene can and set you up for an easy sweep with one of your breakers. it can also do cleric stuff with wish or set screens if you want, but both of those dip pretty heavily into momentum, and that doesn't gel well with sun. you could also ev it to boost a defensive stat and outspeed key benchmarks like tusk or kyurem if you'd rather have a sturdier switch-in to whatever the rest of your team doesn't like switching into. all of this is still probably not worth trading off magic bounce for, but don't let that stop you

 

[sims796]

i've tried using scream tail in the past, but it's just too passive. it usually ends up being just kind of a support blob that makes no progress and that doesn't work this gen. it doesn't really have a good way to take advantage of encore turns without gimping your own momentum alongside your opponent's, mola's so good as a wishpasser that any other wishpassing tech is rendered bad by merit of not being mola, atales is way better at screens and screens fell off anyway, pult does fast twave better, a ton of mons do fast (or bulky) rocks better, and most of the other things scream tail can do are covered by hatterene. the biggest problem with the mon is that it just does no damage. even most stallmons have ways to do damage—either they have toxic, or some other form of passive damage, or body press, or some form of setup, or just a serviceable attacking stat in general. you gotta really distinguish yourself, like alomomomola, if you want to succeed with a damage output that low.

that being said.

scream tail has the capability to boost either one of its defensive stats or speed with protosynthesis if you tailor its evs right. this gives it a lot of flexibility, in theory, on sun teams. it's much faster and much bulkier than current sun staple hatterene, so if you're confident in dropping some hazard control from a team structure that desperately needs hazard control (advice: do not do this), scream tail can serve as a hatterene alternative that improves on all of hatterene's defensive matchups and simultaneously acts as speed control, another thing that sun very much likes to have. with full speed investment and protosynthesis active, scream tail outspeeds booster iron moth and anything slower, which lets it spread paralysis against offense a lot better than hatterene can and set you up for an easy sweep with one of your breakers. it can also do cleric stuff with wish or set screens if you want, but both of those dip pretty heavily into momentum, and that doesn't gel well with sun. you could also ev it to boost a defensive stat and outspeed key benchmarks like tusk or kyurem if you'd rather have a sturdier switch-in to whatever the rest of your team doesn't like switching into. all of this is still probably not worth trading off magic bounce for, but don't let that stop you

Oh don't worry, I'll let everything else you said stop me. That is such a damn shame, all this talk of low tier heat, but Azu is.better at even perish trapping, and Alo is so good at passing wishes that every other user I've tried recently had me saying that line near verbatim: it's not Alo this is a waste of time. I don't even wanna use AV Alo. I don't care if it's S rank material, Ditto is meant to revenge kill, Rilla band booms and Alo passes wishes, that's it's job don't rob it of its purpose in life.

 

[RS25802580]

How do we feel about special cobalion? obvious winning matchup agaisnt kingambit, samurott, weavile, non focus blast darkrai. has options for iron valiant or kyurem . Has trouble with birds and ghold. I see it being C tier in viability. definitely an underexplored pokemon

@ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Flash Cannon/ Steel Beam
- Aura Sphere
- Vacuum Wave

In this case why not just run Keldeo.

 

[viivian]

it should be noted that keldeo and cobalion fulfill entirely different roles on a team. so while i don't think cobalion is much good in OU, keldeo is most certainly not one of the reasons why

 

[tommytt22]

In this case why not just run Keldeo.

Ogerpon can revenge keldeo. If cobalion has a boost or 2 then ogerpon cant do shit. Trading with ogerpon is a win in itself then getting some chip on the next thing with vacuum wave id call that a good trade.

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cobalion: 148-175 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Cobalion Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 157-186 (52.1 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Cheryl.]

If you wanna go with a Calm Mind Cobalion, I’d really just recommend using Calm Mind Iron Crown. Obviously you lose the Dark resist which can make it a bit of a Tera hog but in return you get some actual firepower behind your moves and the ability to run Booster Speed which makes it more of a menace to offenses than it would be otherwise. That CM Tera Ground Crown set that was used in WCOP is really solid and should be explored more, nobody expects their Gholdengos to get nuked and then their entire team swept.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

How do we feel about special cobalion? obvious winning matchup agaisnt kingambit, samurott, weavile, non focus blast darkrai. has options for iron valiant or kyurem . Has trouble with birds and ghold. I see it being C tier in viability. definitely an underexplored pokemon

@ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Flash Cannon/ Steel Beam
- Aura Sphere
- Vacuum Wave

Having given this some runs it feels oddly good in a way Crown doesn't at times? The bulk feels very nice against physical threats and access to Vacuum Wave is hilarious for being able to snipe a lot of mons after a few boosts. Definitely not bad I'd say since being able to power thru a lot of fighting-weak types felt real nice with priority on a boosting mon, but I feel like losing left overs felt real bad. Was best on a Grassy Terrain team for me.

 

[RS25802580]

it should be noted that keldeo and cobalion fulfill entirely different roles on a team. so while i don't think cobalion is much good in OU, keldeo is most certainly not one of the reasons why

Their set was an offense invested Calm Mind sweeper with the perks of carrying Vacuum Wave priority and checking Gambit/Hamurott/Wevile. I think there’s plenty of overlap with Keldeo.

Ogerpon can revenge keldeo. If cobalion has a boost or 2 then ogerpon cant do shit. Trading with ogerpon is a win in itself then getting some chip on the next thing with vacuum wave id call that a good trade.

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cobalion: 148-175 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Cobalion Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 157-186 (52.1 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Fair. Though Keldeo can get around this with Tera Steel. +1 Secret Sword + Vacuum Wave always kills.

Keldeo’s Water STAB is a notable advantage over Coballion’s Steel so that you can hit Ghold, the Iron Birds, Moltres, Gliscor, and Lando. The latter two matchups are particularly rough for Coballion.

In this regard, I might recommend Tera Flying Substitute Coballion to take advantage of Gliscor and Lando for free setup.

Since Coballion is less used than Keldeo, I think leaning into this surprise factor would make it most effective.

 

[ausma]

I love Iron Crown. Seeing its uprising in WCOP especially has been a big treat for me as both a player and spectator, and I think there's a lot to it that makes it so effective, fun, and well-designed in this highly saturated tier. I made a video explaining why it's so cool, and I'd suggest checking it out if you wonder why it feels so good to utilize!

 

[viivian]

Their set was an offense invested Calm Mind sweeper with the perks of carrying Vacuum Wave priority and checking Gambit/Hamurott/Wevile. I think there’s plenty of overlap with Keldeo.

keldeo isn't even super good anymore but if you want to use it in OU you're always gonna be running choice specs. CM keldeo is simply not viable in this metagame so there's really not that much overlap between it and CM cobalion. the real issue with running CM cobalion is that cobalion is not very good to begin with, and its unique qualities don't save it from being entirely outclassed as an offensive pokemon by iron crown

I love Iron Crown. Seeing its uprising in WCOP especially has been a big treat for me as both a player and spectator, and I think there's a lot to it that makes it so effective, fun, and well-designed in this highly saturated tier. I made a video explaining why it's so cool, and I'd suggest checking it out if you wonder why it feels so good to utilize!

speaking of iron crown, i really enjoy watching these short informative videos and this one is no exception. turns out iron crown is way more flexible than we initially thought and i'm glad to see it back in OU

 

[TheTraininator]

I love Iron Crown. Seeing its uprising in WCOP especially has been a big treat for me as both a player and spectator, and I think there's a lot to it that makes it so effective, fun, and well-designed in this highly saturated tier. I made a video explaining why it's so cool, and I'd suggest checking it out if you wonder why it feels so good to utilize!

It always amused me how big-brain versatile and customizable Iron Crown is with a variety of different setup options and lots of utility potential compared to its brother Iron Boulder who runs one set that boils down to “me outfast the fast, me kill”.

 

[RS25802580]

keldeo isn't even super good anymore but if you want to use it in OU you're always gonna be running choice specs. CM keldeo is simply not viable in this metagame so there's really not that much overlap between it and CM cobalion. the real issue with running CM cobalion is that cobalion is not very good to begin with, and its unique qualities don't save it from being entirely outclassed as an offensive pokemon by iron crown

The discussion was about trying a niche Calm Mind user that carries priority and whose typing emergency checks Gambit/Hamurott/Weavile.

Overall viability is irrelevant as is other sets.

Simple question: “what does CM Coballion offer over CM Keldeo?”

 

[Eeveeto]

The discussion was about trying a niche Calm Mind user that carries priority and whose typing emergency checks Gambit/Hamurott/Weavile.

Overall viability is irrelevant as is other sets.

Simple question: “what does CM Coballion offer over CM Keldeo?”

Answer = better defensive typing and more Physical Defense (which allows to set-up easier).

 

[hoyesdomingo]

Answer = better defensive typing and more Physical Defense (which allows to set-up easier).

Crown is nice because it fortifies most balance matchups into glim / web HO, and because vest lets it answer a lot of threats (kyurem, primarina). It's important to note that one of the main reasons for its effectiveness is just how hard it hits. It fulfills a strong role on balance teams because it provides defensive utility + an actual threat (also positioning w/Future Sight) AND can keep up momentum w/future sight.

Cobalion is very different. It hard walls any gambit lacking tera fire / fighting TB, but it also doesn't keep up momentum nearly as well—you need to boost in order to threaten stuff, and that can become exploitable against stuff like Gliscor. It's inability to immediately threaten glis + tusk as directly really makes a mon you have to commit more to—and the lack of immediate defensive utility also hampers you're team.

That's probably my biggest issue with Cob—it's very dangerous, but the support needed to both cover for it's flaws and cover general threats that Crown normally can help with really limits your options in the teambuilder. Being walled by glis is already major trouble teams that aren't running fast breaking offense OR have a balance / stall approach of your own.

 

[Eeveeto]

Crown is nice because it fortifies most balance matchups into glim / web HO, and because vest lets it answer a lot of threats (kyurem, primarina). It's important to note that one of the main reasons for its effectiveness is just how hard it hits. It fulfills a strong role on balance teams because it provides defensive utility + an actual threat (also positioning w/Future Sight) AND can keep up momentum w/future sight.

Cobalion is very different. It hard walls any gambit lacking tera fire / fighting TB, but it also doesn't keep up momentum nearly as well—you need to boost in order to threaten stuff, and that can become exploitable against stuff like Gliscor. It's inability to immediately threaten glis + tusk as directly really makes a mon you have to commit more to—and the lack of immediate defensive utility also hampers you're team.

That's probably my biggest issue with Cob—it's very dangerous, but the support needed to both cover for it's flaws and cover general threats that Crown normally can help with really limits your options in the teambuilder. Being walled by glis is already major trouble teams that aren't running fast breaking offense OR have a balance / stall approach of your own.

Fair point, but the post I was answering to was comparing Cobalion with Keldeo, not with Iron Crown. Its pretty obvious a niche Mon was inferior to an OU Mon, the comparation was between 2 different niche Mons. I personally don,t like neither Cobalion, nor Keldeo, but would be using both of them with Specs, not CM.

 

[viol and bass]

This might be more SQSA territory but has anybody tried running Burning Jealousy on Moltres as a way of compressing burn and fire STAB into one slot? It might be kind of dumb because you can't burn slower shit and the base power difference probably matters in some cases, but Flame Body partially makes up for the less reliable burn, and running it allows you to run Hurricane / Scorching Sands more easily. I've only tried it a little bit but it feels kinda nice to use.

 

[R.para ti]

Why the name section of showdown stild in loading, i can't put my name

 

[hoyesdomingo]

Oh yeah for sure. There was a little bit of discussion earlier comparing cobalion and crown, which was moreso what I was responding to. And yeah, I too probably won't use either unless I was messing around in a friendly.

 

[Bold School]

This might be more SQSA territory but has anybody tried running Burning Jealousy on Moltres as a way of compressing burn and fire STAB into one slot? It might be kind of dumb because you can't burn slower shit and the base power difference probably matters in some cases, but Flame Body partially makes up for the less reliable burn, and running it allows you to run Hurricane / Scorching Sands more easily. I've only tried it a little bit but it feels kinda nice to use.

I have tried Moltres a lot recently. Burning Jealousy is something I haven't tried on it. I have tried a Scorching Sands set with no wisp, though, and it relies a lot more heavily on luck. It can be good. My issue is I'm not sure what you drop. Moltres likes to run both Roost and U-turn if possible. Roar is also decent for phasing. (As an aside, I find it kinda weird that it gets that yet not Whirlwind.) Running 3 attacks on it that aren't U-Turn is kinda different. I guess you could run 3 Attacks + Roost.

I have also tried the Scorching Sands/Hurricane combo with no wisp. It's not bad, but sometimes the hax gods hate you. I did find that Hurricane was still better for certain matchups because it makes you less passive, even if it misses way too much. Scorching Sands is not too damaging, but it is excellent. Tera Ground is also really nice on Moltres because you can counter Electric moves and the rocks weakness while hitting troublesome Tera Fire mons trying to counter your burns. Tera Ground Scorching Sands + Hurricane gives you a theoretically amazing Ground/Flying STAB attacking option that is nowhere near as potent or reliable in practice due to Hurricanes low accuracy and SS's low BP.

I have experimented with a more physically attacking, though still tanky Moltres set, that used Acrobatics to punish the Knock Off for opponents targeting the boots they think you run on tres, But I don't believe in boots tres because I'm a man. Anyways, the advantages of higher attack were Acrobatics and Stronger U-turns. It was decent. Just not as good as special attacking sets. Unfortunately, I never tried it with Tera Ground. Acrobatics would be more reliable than Hurricane. Tera Blast has a slightly higher BP, but is obviously much less useful than Scorching Sands if you don't Tera. This is a bit off topic, but I did face one really offensive Tera Ground Zapdos that destroyed a team I made at really low rating. I never saw that again. So I don't know how viable that truly is. Maybe Moltres can do something similar? I do want to experiment with offensive sets since everyone expects the bulky burn hax sets.

Anyways, my opinion on Moltres after testing various sets is that Scorching Sands is really darn good on it. So good that I switched entirely to using special sets on it. I would risk not running wisp on a set that had SS and Flame Body, but I also don't think I would ever want to ditch SS on a wisp set since it is so common for folks to use Fire and tera Fire mons to counter the burns.

The other two moves I really like on it are Roost and U-turn. Roost is self explanatory. You could maybe drop U-turn and hard switch it if your team has enough pivots, but the fact is mons like Tres are good partly because they are pivots. This is also partly why I greatly prefer Corv over Skarm. The flying pivots tend to be really good glue mons. The only potential one I wouldn't run U-turn on is probably Gliscor since it needs a slot for Protect.

As for Burning Jealousy, the BP is very low and the burn is conditional. I'd be willing to try it, but I'm not sure it would really be better. I wound up even dropping Flamethrower on most of my Tres sets because Fire STAB wasn't always as necessary. It is more reliable than Hurricane, though.

 

[tommytt22]

I have tried Moltres a lot recently. Burning Jealousy is something I haven't tried on it. I have tried a Scorching Sands set with no wisp, though, and it relies a lot more heavily on luck. It can be good. My issue is I'm not sure what you drop. Moltres likes to run both Roost and U-turn if possible. Roar is also decent for phasing. (As an aside, I find it kinda weird that it gets that yet not Whirlwind.) Running 3 attacks on it that aren't U-Turn is kinda different. I guess you could run 3 Attacks + Roost.

I have also tried the Scorching Sands/Hurricane combo with no wisp. It's not bad, but sometimes the hax gods hate you. I did find that Hurricane was still better for certain matchups because it makes you less passive, even if it misses way too much. Scorching Sands is not too damaging, but it is excellent. Tera Ground is also really nice on Moltres because you can counter Electric moves and the rocks weakness while hitting troublesome Tera Fire mons trying to counter your burns. Tera Ground Scorching Sands + Hurricane gives you a theoretically amazing Ground/Flying STAB attacking option that is nowhere near as potent or reliable in practice due to Hurricanes low accuracy and SS's low BP.

I have experimented with a more physically attacking, though still tanky Moltres set, that used Acrobatics to punish the Knock Off for opponents targeting the boots they think you run on tres, But I don't believe in boots tres because I'm a man. Anyways, the advantages of higher attack were Acrobatics and Stronger U-turns. It was decent. Just not as good as special attacking sets. Unfortunately, I never tried it with Tera Ground. Acrobatics would be more reliable than Hurricane. Tera Blast has a slightly higher BP, but is obviously much less useful than Scorching Sands if you don't Tera. This is a bit off topic, but I did face one really offensive Tera Ground Zapdos that destroyed a team I made at really low rating. I never saw that again. So I don't know how viable that truly is. Maybe Moltres can do something similar? I do want to experiment with offensive sets since everyone expects the bulky burn hax sets.

Anyways, my opinion on Moltres after testing various sets is that Scorching Sands is really darn good on it. So good that I switched entirely to using special sets on it. I would risk not running wisp on a set that had SS and Flame Body, but I also don't think I would ever want to ditch SS on a wisp set since it is so common for folks to use Fire and tera Fire mons to counter the burns.

The other two moves I really like on it are Roost and U-turn. Roost is self explanatory. You could maybe drop U-turn and hard switch it if your team has enough pivots, but the fact is mons like Tres are good partly because they are pivots. This is also partly why I greatly prefer Corv over Skarm. The flying pivots tend to be really good glue mons. The only potential one I wouldn't run U-turn on is probably Gliscor since it needs a slot for Protect.

As for Burning Jealousy, the BP is very low and the burn is conditional. I'd be willing to try it, but I'm not sure it would really be better. I wound up even dropping Flamethrower on most of my Tres sets because Fire STAB wasn't always as necessary. It is more reliable than Hurricane, though.

Speaking of moltres ive been using it on sun with specs. its fairly easy to keep hazards off with eject hatterene. Moltres blows away anything not 4x resistant. less powerful than charizard but a lot sturdier, has uturn, and flame body is always useful in a pinch. Unfortunately on sun there is no Hurricane option so its really just flamethrower, overheat, scorching sands and uturn. Ive been impressed with it though. Every sun team needs a good fire type

 

[GummyRowlets]

Speaking of moltres ive been using it on sun with specs. its fairly easy to keep hazards off with eject hatterene. Moltres blows away anything not 4x resistant. less powerful than charizard but a lot sturdier, has uturn, and flame body is always useful in a pinch. Unfortunately on sun there is no Hurricane option so its really just flamethrower, overheat, scorching sands and uturn. Ive been impressed with it though. Every sun team needs a good fire type

I've actually been wanting to use Moltres on sun. Not for the offensive way you have, which is still great don't get me wrong but more for it defenses. Resisting fairy and being immune to ground are two of the hardest resist sun covers and moltres naturally loved sun boosted flamethrowers or even weather balls. I'm building around it right now actually.

 

[GummyRowlets]

Btw just a side note but has anyone ever had any succes with a raging bolt on sun? Raging bolt is such a great mon and fits on many play styles. Fits on balance, HO, rain, offense, bulky balance and sun, but on sun it feels like it always missing. Most sun teams always use walking wake, gouing fire, and tusk but never my man raging bolt. Is there any reason for this?

 

[ausma]

Btw just a side note but has anyone ever had any succes with a raging bolt on sun? Raging bolt is such a great mon and fits on many play styles. Fits on balance, HO, rain, offense, bulky balance and sun, but on sun it feels like it always missing. Most sun teams always use walking wake, gouing fire, and tusk but never my man raging bolt. Is there any reason for this?

sun really dislikes having 6 teamslots, but raging bolt is an insanely nutty wallbreaker under sun and i think is highly underutilized. use it with healing wish ninetales and you get smth thats just rly difficult to stop from consistently beating you down

 

[tommytt22]

Btw just a side note but has anyone ever had any succes with a raging bolt on sun? Raging bolt is such a great mon and fits on many play styles. Fits on balance, HO, rain, offense, bulky balance and sun, but on sun it feels like it always missing. Most sun teams always use walking wake, gouing fire, and tusk but never my man raging bolt. Is there any reason for this?

I posted a team a few weeks back with sticky webs sun, i used timid life orb raging bolt, its pretty hectic on sun, wake is the goat spA pokemon on sun but bolt is also a strong contender if you dont mind having 2 special offense pokemon.

 

[ShizuOsaka]

I have found it extremely difficult to check Darkrai and Zamazenta.
Darkrai is just... impossibly hard to check. Fairies can't check it because of Sludge Bomb, Ice Beam hits dragons and Focus Blast blows up dark types.
I also have to be afraid of Scarf Krai, because I once tried to use Pult check and then got jumped by Dark Pulse.
Zamn too. A lot of times, when it tera fire, it is impossible to weaken it. Those that can stand Body Press fold to Crunch (Gholdengo, Glowking), and the last slot has been Stone Edge to punish Moltres. Roar also prevents anti-setup effort from Skarm.