Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[RS25802580]

The majority of stall players voted DNB on Kyurem during its first suspect test. If anything, stall players were the ones who saved Kyurem from being banned, so to imply that Kyurem is one of the most oppressive mons for stall to face is not entirely accurate.

As Heatranator mentioned, Kyurem has seen significant innovation since the last suspect which was months ago. Mixed DD, Mixed AoA Loaded Dice, and SubTect were not common sets back then.

The mention about stall was also not the main idea of my post… I was addressing you because you mentioned that by my “line of reasoning” Kyurem should be DNB, and I was explaining why it would be Ban. Your thoughts?

 

[Avira]

As Heatranator mentioned, Kyurem has seen significant innovation since the last suspect which was months ago. Mixed DD, Mixed AoA Loaded Dice, and SubTect were not common sets back then.

The mention about stall was also not the main idea of my post… I was addressing you because you mentioned that by my “line of reasoning” Kyurem should be DNB, and I was explaining why it would be Ban. Your thoughts?

Personally, I don't think Kyurem is an impactful in the builder as you say it is, which is why I responded the way I did. I would much prefer a Darkrai suspect first although I wouldn't mind a Kyurem suspect.

 

[RS25802580]

Personally, I don't think Kyurem is an impactful in the builder as you say it is, which is why I responded the way I did. I would much prefer a Darkrai suspect first although I wouldn't mind a Kyurem suspect.

In that regard, there are excellent arguments by some experienced players about why Kyurem is very impactful in the builder and arguably the most problematic mon for the health of the meta right now. I think Ausma puts it best here:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-metagame-discussion-v4-olt-hype.3732644/post-10205958

 

[Avira]

I've already read Leng Loi and ausma's posts, so you don't need to link me to them. I still don't think Kyurem should be the top priority.

 

[RS25802580]

I've already read Leng Loi and ausma's posts, so you don't need to link me to them. I still don't think Kyurem should be the top priority.

In that case, I’m curious to hear your opinion for why Darkrai over Kyurem.

 

[viivian]

i can understand not wanting kyurem banned (though i personally disagree) but i don't see why darkrai should be our top priority right now personally

 

[Magcargo]

Kyu probably is an easier mon to toss out of the metagame relative to other mons. I don't think its exactly broken or even that good, but the set variety and ability to mix & match whatever moves it wants can make it annoying to handle tied with potential freeze hax. I don't think its extremely consistent regardless of what it runs but neither are its answers. The fact that its not THAT good I think also makes it easier for players to want to toss out since its not exactly a convenient nor consistent builder option.

Darkrai and Ogerpon-W are better Pokemon (and Ogerpon-W IMO is significantly more broken than Kyurem). However, I think players enjoy Darkrai's presence for being a consistent, reliable Ice Beam option on most teams that also provides valuable speed control, with its initial power and bulk not being TOO overbearing or mindless. Ogerpon-W is pretty damn cheap & a bit too strong, but similarly provides some good utility by being one of our good Encore options, pviots, water resist, and Mola checks (which would enable some other degen wallbreakers like Ursaluna). The fact these Pokemon are easier to slap onto a team works in their favor since players notice the more tangible benefits that they provide compared to Kyurem, which I feel is mostly relegated to cheese squads with cheese sets. Kyurem doesn't actually check anything too notable, and isn't as self sufficient as Darkrai / Ogerpon-W, which makes it more of a pain to build with.

 

[Pais]

My thoughts about current state of the metagame and most controversial mons (based on my high ladder experience and WCoP experience).


3.5/5
I'd say Ogerpon-Wellspring is a pokemon that overall does not reward good team building skills and generally doesn't need a lot of skill to be played. Dragons Mons and mons faster than it keep it in check or at least can force some trade but the real deal here is the coverage options that make playing around it a bit more stressful and rng ivy cudgel crit scenarios, but overall I'd say it's not impossible to take advantage of it. Hazards are again at their peak thanks to Samurott-H being extremely valuable in this exact moment of the metagame and Ogerpon suffers them a lot. I'd say it has some defensive utility too that can make it "ok"/"borderline" to stay in the meta like being able to switch in to tusk or encore setuppers like malding bolt / kingambit, so it's not a big deal. Obviously it's not a mon you can check with perfect counterplays but forcing trades is something good you can do vs Ogerpon-Water.


4/5
That's another pokemon that does not really require a lot of skill and drawbacks, maybe Bolt structures are weak to hazards/stallish teams usually but I think it's the main reason why gliscor / ting lu structures are rising in usage again. Red Card mons help to check it, but the thing is that most of the times it can force damage or just reduce games to coinflip. It's not impossible to outplay it, most of HO structures right now have a lot of flaws, but I think it's generally an annoying pokemon that does not really help the tier but it can keep in check some other broken so probably not the mon that needs to go before others. I find interesting the Heavy Duty Boots moveset in more bulky off/balanced teams, it's still able to put pressure. We're talking about a pokemon with high flexibility and generally really easy to play.


3.5/5
Ye ok it's annoying, it has good coverage etc, but hazards are the main reason of why this mon is overall checkable in this tier and it's hard that this mon alone 6-0es a team unless the team is unviable. I think it requires surely more skill than Malding Bolt and Ogerpon-Wellspring to be played and the Kyurem presence is needed to check the broken dragons of the tier, keeping zapdos usage low (nobody wants the static/twave gameplay) and to punish a bit ting lu or gliscor structures (Volcarona ban helped this mon overall).


2.5/5
I was not generally a fan of Zamazenta unban but since Dark Types are broken in this tier and since HO is generally the best playstyle at least on paper I think this thing needs to stay OU. I don't think Zamazenta wins alone entire games alone unless you face HO teams built with ass. I like this pokemon because it limits a bit the offensive power creep of the tier.


5/5
I don't think this pokemon deserves to stay OU. RNG alone (thunder wave, dark pulse flinch, sludge bomb poison, ice beam freeze...) and high moveset variance make it a real pain in the ass. I don't think it's necessary impossible to outplay, but I have the feeling it brings more bad things than good things to the tier. Most of people don't want to ban it because they are scared of more fat structures but this tier is full of wallbreakers, you can't be really scared from fat teams lol. I think it's the most bannable pokemon without huge consequences on the metagame. We must admit too that the Volcarona ban helped Darkrai and other threats to rise up in the metagame.


4.5/5
There's not a lot to say but every good player knows that when there is a Kingambit on the field the game is never lost. People in high ladder are exploring more tera options on this pokemon. I think it's broken, not necessary unbeatable, I can tolerate it since it helps checking other pokemon that without Kingambit would be broken (Gholdengo for example is top 3 mons at least rn in SV OU for wallbreaking/utility support) so I can tolerate it since I doubt certain mons would be banned without kingambit.


3/5
Annoying mon, it's a bit the new Roaring Moon since it suffers less clicking the tera and the priorities, I won't write a lot about it, but I think it's not impossible to prepare vs it in builder and also to outplay it in game. This mon is weak as fuck to hazards and the HDB movesets can't wallbreak so easily. S/o to Dtail DD moveset that helped to contain Zamazenta too


1.5/5
These pokemon are perfectly balanced and fine as long as you build good teams.


-5/5
LMAO, not really related to this topic, these mons are terrible, they should drop to UU at least

Even if I'm not the biggest fan of SV OU as a concept since I'm not at all a tera enjoyer (even if I can tolerate tera a bit) I like the fact that the meta right now allows a lot of mons from lower tiers that are really good in SV OU:


There is not a lot that can be done in my opinion right now if not banning Darkrai or explore more the team builder and to not be lazy copying/stealing other teams, try to work on your ideas and play a lot since SV requires grinding.

 

[Whaloob]

I see a lot of people talking about how Kingambit's Sucker Punch and Raging Bolt's Thunderclap are luck-based; this isn't quite as true as you'd think! In actuality there's a lot more nuance to these moves which makes them require more deliberate play to work around. I made a short video explaining why this is the case. If it's a reason you find Kingambit or Raging Bolt uncompetitive, I'd recommend checking it out.

I will be giving my thoughts on the metagame as a whole very soon now that WCOP has come to an end. Hopefully you all enjoyed it and are getting pumped for OLT!

There’s an important grain of truth here in this video but I’d still like to point out that sucker punch endgames are not 1/256 to lose for Gambit/win for the opponent, as stated in the video. Rather, it is 8/9 in Gambit’s favor if Gambit has all 8 PP, assuming a successful sucker punch wins the game and a successful attacking move from the opponent loses the game. The correct sucker punch strategy in this case is to sucker punch with probability (PP)/(PP+1), so if you have 8 PP you sucker 8/9 = 88.8…% of the time, while if you have 1 PP you sucker 1/2 = 50% of the time. The same calculation determines your worst case win rate using this strategy (as in, if your opponent deviates at all from their optimal strategy, which is to use a non-attacking move with the same probability that you use sucker punch, your win rate will be above that).

Of course, the reality of the game is often more complicated than this. This strategy profile and set of odds to win depends on the game being immediately over upon the conclusion of the sucker punch mindgames. Still, for anyone wondering how to actually play said mindgames, now you know!

 

[sims796]

My thoughts about current state of the metagame and most controversial mons (based on my high ladder experience and WCoP experience).


3.5/5
I'd say Ogerpon-Wellspring is a pokemon that overall does not reward good team building skills and generally doesn't need a lot of skill to be played. Dragons Mons and mons faster than it keep it in check or at least can force some trade but the real deal here is the coverage options that make playing around it a bit more stressful and rng ivy cudgel crit scenarios, but overall I'd say it's not impossible to take advantage of it. Hazards are again at their peak thanks to Samurott-H being extremely valuable in this exact moment of the metagame and Ogerpon suffers them a lot. I'd say it has some defensive utility too that can make it "ok"/"borderline" to stay in the meta like being able to switch in to tusk or encore setuppers like malding bolt / kingambit, so it's not a big deal. Obviously it's not a mon you can check with perfect counterplays but forcing trades is something good you can do vs Ogerpon-Water.


4/5
That's another pokemon that does not really require a lot of skill and drawbacks, maybe Bolt structures are weak to hazards/stallish teams usually but I think it's the main reason why gliscor / ting lu structures are rising in usage again. Red Card mons help to check it, but the thing is that most of the times it can force damage or just reduce games to coinflip. It's not impossible to outplay it, most of HO structures right now have a lot of flaws, but I think it's generally an annoying pokemon that does not really help the tier but it can keep in check some other broken so probably not the mon that needs to go before others. I find interesting the Heavy Duty Boots moveset in more bulky off/balanced teams, it's still able to put pressure. We're talking about a pokemon with high flexibility and generally really easy to play.


3.5/5
Ye ok it's annoying, it has good coverage etc, but hazards are the main reason of why this mon is overall checkable in this tier and it's hard that this mon alone 6-0es a team unless the team is unviable. I think it requires surely more skill than Malding Bolt and Ogerpon-Wellspring to be played and the Kyurem presence is needed to check the broken dragons of the tier, keeping zapdos usage low (nobody wants the static/twave gameplay) and to punish a bit ting lu or gliscor structures (Volcarona ban helped this mon overall).


2.5/5
I was not generally a fan of Zamazenta unban but since Dark Types are broken in this tier and since HO is generally the best playstyle at least on paper I think this thing needs to stay OU. I don't think Zamazenta wins alone entire games alone unless you face HO teams built with ass. I like this pokemon because it limits a bit the offensive power creep of the tier.


5/5
I don't think this pokemon deserves to stay OU. RNG alone (thunder wave, dark pulse flinch, sludge bomb poison, ice beam freeze...) and high moveset variance make it a real pain in the ass. I don't think it's necessary impossible to outplay, but I have the feeling it brings more bad things than good things to the tier. Most of people don't want to ban it because they are scared of more fat structures but this tier is full of wallbreakers, you can't be really scared from fat teams lol. I think it's the most bannable pokemon without huge consequences on the metagame. We must admit too that the Volcarona ban helped Darkrai and other threats to rise up in the metagame.


4.5/5
There's not a lot to say but every good player knows that when there is a Kingambit of the field the game is never lost. People in high ladder are exploring more tera options on this pokemon. I think it's broken, not necessary unbeatable, I can tolerate it since it helps checking other pokemon that without Kingambit would be broken (Gholdengo for example is top 3 mons at least rn in SV OU for wallbreaking/utility support) so I can tolerate it since I doubt certain mons would be banned without kingambit.


3/5
Annoying mon, it's a bit the new Roaring Moon since it suffers less clicking the tera and the priorities, I won't write a lot about it, but I think it's not impossible to prepare vs it in builder and also to outplay it in game. This mon is weak as fuck to hazards and the HDB movesets can't wallbreak so easily. S/o to Dtail DD moveset that helped to contain Zamazenta too


1.5/5
These pokemon are perfectly balanced and fine as long as you build good teams.


-5/5
LMAO, not really related to this topic, these mons are terrible, they should drop to UU at least

Even if I'm not the biggest fan of SV OU as a concept since I'm not at all a tera enjoyer (even if I can tolerate tera a bit) I like the fact that the meta right now allows a lot of mons from lower tiers that are really good in SV OU:


There is not a lot that can be done in my opinion right now if not banning Darkrai or explore more the team builder and to not be lazy copying/stealing other teams, try to work on your ideas and play a lot since SV requires grinding.

We were gonna be enemies after that Meow comment but if you see the value on Plume then you must be a trainer of skill and distinction.

 

[viivian]

meowscarada is washed sadly. it's generally outclassed by weavile as a breaker and ogerpon as a pivot, and it can't really differentiate itself from the two of them without having to run choice scarf. and since it's essentially locked into running choice scarf sets rn it's much easier to play around since you can just scout for which move it locked itself into. it also really hates pokemon like tinkaton and moltres rising in usage; sure you can click knock off on moltres but if flame body procs then your meow is essentially useless. imo there's much better options for speed control that should be considered over meow

 

[sims796]

This makes

meowscarada is washed sadly. it's generally outclassed by weavile as a breaker and ogerpon as a pivot, and it can't really differentiate itself from the two of them without having to run choice scarf. and since it's essentially locked into running choice scarf sets rn it's much easier to play around since you can just scout for which move it locked itself into. it also really hates pokemon like tinkaton and moltres rising in usage; sure you can click knock off on moltres but if flame body procs then your meow is essentially useless. imo there's much better options for speed control that should be considered over meow

This makes me sad. Especially since I cannot put up a single argument against it. I've tried other sets, but now more than ever, it's useless without Scarf. I love the moveset for a Scarf mon, Knock + U-Turn + Triple Miss is sexy, but not if I'm locked into the move, and if all im clicking is U-Turn I might as well go Scizor.

Washed is such a good word for it. Not bad, but no real purpose. That's even worse imo. That means it's too good for the lower tiers. I've been wanting to use Meow in UU for a while.

 

[PastaMechKaku]

Meowscarada viability colorized:

By the by, what brought Weavile back into the limelight as a breaker as I can't imagine it enjoys Zama running the tier or the Hax birds ( and a lesser extent ) being the go-to physical sponges as much as Meow does. Are there new 'mons/ team structures it can exploit?

 

[tommytt22]

How do we feel about special cobalion? obvious winning matchup agaisnt kingambit, samurott, weavile, non focus blast darkrai. has options for iron valiant or kyurem . Has trouble with birds and ghold. I see it being C tier in viability. definitely an underexplored pokemon

@ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Flash Cannon/ Steel Beam
- Aura Sphere
- Vacuum Wave

 

[viivian]

that speed tier is rough and being a steel type without a fairy or flying resist kinda sucks. that and like you said it absolutely cannot touch gholdengo or any of the birds. being a kingambit check is huge but literally every good team already has a kingambit check and most mons are generally just better at it than cobalion is. if i had to give it a rank it'd be no higher than D tier

 

[tommytt22]

that speed tier is rough and being a steel type without a fairy or flying resist kinda sucks. that and like you said it absolutely cannot touch gholdengo or any of the birds. being a kingambit check is huge but literally every good team already has a kingambit check and most mons are generally just better at it than cobalion is. if i had to give it a rank it'd be no higher than D tier

not to oversell a clearly niche pick but 108 isnt a rough speed tier, when you outspeed both iron treads and enamorus, and hit both for supereffective STAB. I think the metagame is stable enough that off meta picks can be capable/usable.

 

[Heatranator]

not to oversell a clearly niche pick but 108 isnt a rough speed tier, when you outspeed both iron treads and enamorus, and hit both for supereffective STAB. I think the metagame is stable enough that off meta picks can be capable/usable.

Well, missing out on 110 speed is something that can be a bit rough since you can't outspeed the ogerpons, which means if they get an SD up, at least wellspring will be hitting you for massive damage. 108 speed isn't horrible, it's still good, but can come up short in important matchups.
Cobalion is def interesting, it does have some very nice qualities. I think it's at best, C rank, but more realistically D rank. Off meta picks can work as you said, but there is a reason why they are off meta, they usually aren't the best mons. If it works for somebody, then all the power to them.

Edit: Also for enam and treads, enam usually runs scarf which means unless you are running scarf cobalion (bad set), it will outspeed you, and still cobalion ain't that good of a enam answer. Treads is better, but it does use rapid spin to outspeed. It prob won't stay in but if cobalion is chipped, then it could use e-quake to finish cobalion off. Definitely interesting interactions, but not the best in cobalions favour.

 

[GummyRowlets]

How do we feel about special cobalion? obvious winning matchup agaisnt kingambit, samurott, weavile, non focus blast darkrai. has options for iron valiant or kyurem . Has trouble with birds and ghold. I see it being C tier in viability. definitely an underexplored pokemon

@ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Flash Cannon/ Steel Beam
- Aura Sphere
- Vacuum Wave

Any reason for a special set? Isn't a physical set just strictly better with close combat or body press id, or just to actually use your ability. I also think you just go pure support with cobalion. With something like twave, rocks, and coverage. No sense in trying to make calm mind or even sd work when lots of other Pokemon do it's jobs better

 

[GummyRowlets]

On the topic of shitmons to discuss has anyone ever thought of cooking with a Salamance? Defensively, it offers a bit giving the much resist to grassy glide and actually being a decent switch in to and . ofc you would need to go special with... hurricance . Just pray to lord Arceus you land it. Intimidate is what mainly draws me though able to at least halt some physical attackers. Maybe some type of dtail could work as well to actually let it do something.

Salamence @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 216 HP / 140 SpA / 152 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hurricane
- Dragon Tail
- Roost
Ev to get 3HKO by play rough from oger and outspeed tusk

 

[tommytt22]

Any reason for a special set? Isn't a physical set just strictly better with close combat or body press id, or just to actually use your ability. I also think you just go pure support with cobalion. With something like twave, rocks, and coverage. No sense in trying to make calm mind or even sd work when lots of other Pokemon do it's jobs better

the reason is because its fun. if you have a boosting move and priority its worth a look. Yeah ID is better but are you really going to compete with zamazenta in that role? There isnt one overwhelming special setup sweeper so theres room to move in, and cobalion has a fighting chance agaisnt them, so why not.

On the topic of shitmons to discuss has anyone ever thought of cooking with a Salamance? Defensively, it offers a bit giving the much resist to grassy glide and actually being a decent switch in to and . ofc you would need to go special with... hurricance . Just pray to lord Arceus you land it. Intimidate is what mainly draws me though able to at least halt some physical attackers. Maybe some type of dtail could work as well to actually let it do something.
View attachment 652774
Salamence @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 216 HP / 140 SpA / 152 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hurricane
- Dragon Tail
- Roost
Ev to get 3HKO by play rough from oger and outspeed tusk

As for a salamence, Ill recommend fire spin/roost as a trapping set. synergises with intimidate

 

[Rekka's Backend]

How do we feel about special cobalion? obvious winning matchup agaisnt kingambit, samurott, weavile, non focus blast darkrai. has options for iron valiant or kyurem . Has trouble with birds and ghold. I see it being C tier in viability. definitely an underexplored pokemon

@ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Flash Cannon/ Steel Beam
- Aura Sphere
- Vacuum Wave

This one definitely looks fun. I'll give it a whirl and share my thoughts since the typing and move set feels like it has legit potential.

 

[pika pal]

Any reason for a special set? Isn't a physical set just strictly better with close combat or body press id, or just to actually use your ability. I also think you just go pure support with cobalion. With something like twave, rocks, and coverage. No sense in trying to make calm mind or even sd work when lots of other Pokemon do it's jobs better

Besides the "it's fun" factor, a lot of Pokemon that can go Special benefit in the capacity of hitting many of the tier's premier Defensive mons on their weaker defensive stat (Tusk, Treads, Zama, Kingambit), which can make the difference on how weak they need to be or what chunk you take out of them on mispredicts/Tera switches.

252 SpA Cobalion Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 169-201 (38.9 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 121-144 (27.8 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Cobalion isn't the best choice with the other factors cited since it loses a lot of that "power" gain by using lower BP moves (unless you commit to Focus Blast which is its own risk), but it's a logic that has been significant for other mons this Gen, most notably Landorus-T. I don't think Justified is a huge point in its favor since the most common Dark move is Knock Off, and a mon like this hates losing Lefties if it's trying to check or set-up on mons given it needs multiple boosts off Base 90 offenses.

 

[658Greninja]

To sum up my thoughts on the metagame, I think its in a good spot rn. The steam regarding most of the alleged brokens (Zama, Wogre, KG, Rai) has simmered down. Ofc people are still vocal about discussing bans. Leng and Ausma argued Kyurem is suspect worthy, Pais was vocal about Darkrai and Raging Bolt having a negative effect on the tier. Today I wanna apologize to a mon I deemed broken in the past (no its not Gliscor). The mon in question being

Lemme go over why imo, Darkrai is not broken.

Arguing To Keep Darkrai​

Reason #1: Sufficient Enough Counterplay

Despite Darkrai’s status as this unwallable fast breaker, it has several counterplay options that can fit on every common archetype, some of which the anti-Rai ban squad had listed out.

Checks!


Can pivot into a Dpulse or Sludge and 1v1 with Ruination + EQ. Ice Beam and Focus Miss don’t 2HKO without a NP boost, but Ting Whirlwinds this out.

Alomomola @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 8 HP / 196 Atk / 72 Def / 232 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Scald
- Flip Turn
- Play Rough
- Mirror Coat

Underrated set. Always 2HKOs Darkrai with Play Rough and Dpulse is a 4HKO. if it Teras, Mirror Coat. Mola can also Flip Turn out into a rkiller.

1v1s Darkrai and Sludge Bomb has a very low roll to 2HKO after rocks and Prima OHKOs back with Moonblast. +2 Sludge doesn’t OHKO after rocks, needs to Tera in order to break.


One of the best and most consistent Darkrai checks. Threatens to T-Wave, get Rocks up, or Knock.


Exclusive to Stall and Fat, but 1v1s Darkrai and threatens with Toxic or Pjab.


SpD Corv is 4HKOd by Dpulse and can U-Turn out into a mon that 1v1s Darkrai.

AV Hatt avoids a 2HKO from Darkrai and threatens with D-Kiss or Nuzzle. Can Tera to avoid the OHKO from +2 Tera Poison Sludge and threaten with a Psychic move.


Has to fear Focus Blast, but can pivot into Wisp Rai very easily and click Rocks or Magma.

Checks Darkrai very hard and threatens Darkrai’s team with Knock or just big damage.


Checks Darkrai Pre-Tera.


Self-Explanatory.


SpD Bulk Up and AV 1v1 Darkrai. These sets are also good into the structures Darkrai fits on. Hype mon.

AV Pex has been seeing usage on Balance structures such as this one.
https://pokepast.es/7ea59a9ff63cb83e

It easily switches into Darkrai and can threaten with Tera Fighting Blast if need be.


Hard check to Darkrai that fits on BO structures. 1v1s most of the common special offense mons such as Valiant, Raging Bolt, and ofc Darkrai. Underrated mon on offenses that exploit Gliscor and Steels.


Niche mon that switches into Darkrai and threatens to break with its SD set.


Can switch into Darkrai once or twice and threaten an OHKO/big damage on it and its teammates. Priority Vacuum Wave comes in clutch here.


Switches into Dpulse and Sludge with HP investment. Even if Darkrai terastilizes, CB First Impression picks up the kill after rocks.


Has to be wary of Focus Blast, but otherwise it deals big damage on Darkrai or can get a Knock.


Another pivot with longevity like Fezan, and gets First Impression.


SpD Bellibolt can get off a Toxic, eat Dpulses, and get huge damage off with Discharge boosted by Electromorphosis.

Mons That 1v1/Rkill Darkrai


Band and Specs Pult can pick off Darkrai.


Dnite can pick off weakened Darkrai with E-Speed. If need be, it can Tera to avoid the Ice Beam 2HKO and set up a DD.


Sounds stupid, but Rai doesn’t even one-shot Gholdengo without E-Belt or LO…after rocks mind you.

252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 290-344 (76.7 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Meanwhile Ghold can T-Wave or kill with Focus Miss, etc. Alternatively, Ghold can run Colbur sets to get the T-Wave off granted if Darkrai doesn’t finch, or Tera Fairy and blast it off with Gleam.


Speed Booster Tusk can pick off a weakened Darkrai. On standard sets, 104 HP lets you eat a non-E-Belt/LO boosted Ice Beam. Alternatively you can run Assault Vest with CC to 1v1 even those. Can Tera to avoid the OHKO from +2 Ice Beam.


Darkrai needs to Tera or be Scarfed in order to beat this. Moonblast or CC will kill and Valiant can use this opportunity to click buttons or clean with SD/CM sets. If you’re a real one, you Tera Steel and Encore it into Sludge Bomb.


Tera Wogre lives a +2 hit and OHKOs Darkrai with a Cudgel after rocks, assuming Pulse flinches don’t happen.


Threatens with Clap or any move really and can eat an unboosted Ice Beam.


Can pivot into a Sludge/Ice Beam and T-Wave Darkrai, only taking 47%-55% from Pulse. Ofc Glowking can Tera and make things even easier.


1v1s unboosted Darkrai with Pyro and U-Turn. Its also immune to Wisp. Great in the lead matchup.


Doesn’t switch in at all, but outspeeds and OHKOs with LO Superpower.

200 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Speed Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 286-338 (101.7 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If it Tera’d prior, Psycho Boost for the ggs.


Tera Water can click Salt Cure and Recover repeatedly on Darkrai safely.


G-Fire is a tanky ahh mfer that avoids a 2HKO from Pulse if rocks are kept off and G-Fire can use it to start setting DDs.


Can pivot into Sludge or Beam. If Rai picks up a kill, Moth comes in safely, threatening to snowball the team.


Moon eats an unboosted Ice Beam and clicks DD on it.


Needs Tera to outspeed, but it forces Darkrai to Tera itself or switch out as Boosted Cudgel can OHKO pre-Tera Darkrai after rocks.


Tera Grass Glide can OHKO non-Tera Poison Darkrai.


Scarf Low Kick or U-Turn can OHKO Darkrai after rocks.

AV Volcanion 1v1s Darkrai and can straight up OHKO with Steam Eruption after rocks. Standard Volcanion can eat an unboosted hit.

Reason #2 Skyhigh Usage of Zamazenta


The reason I didn’t mention Zama in the pool of checks is that Zama’s presence is a big reason why Darkrai is balanced in the tier. This is relevant when Zamazenta is one of the most used mons in the tier and at best, the no. 1 mon in SV OU. Zama switches into Darkrai, outspeeds, and threatens with Press. Off its presence alone, it keeps Darkrai in check, made even better by the fact Zama fits into any common team structure. HO, Balance, and BO all have room for it.

If you take a look at the recent usage statistics of both WCOP and high ladder,

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-world-cup-of-pokémon-2024-usage-statistics.3744071/

https://www.smogon.com/stats/2024-06/gen9ou-1825.txt

at minimum, 26% of teams have a built in Darkrai answer.

Reason #3 Darkrai Incites Creativity And Interesting Meta Developments

With broken threats, they often restrict team building and are limited with the amount of mons that deal with it. Archaludon for example had very few checks and led to teams either being Rain or anti-Rain, stifling meta progress. Darkrai is not that, if anything, it has led to people finding innovative team choices. It may not be the sole cause, but it helped push these mons into relevancy or at least become noticed.

Tinkaton has reached OU status recently, with it being ranked in A- rank and not just cause of Darkrai. Its incredible typing into certain OU relevant mons and utility pool including the allusive Encore let Tinakton rise into the limelight. Other mons like Pex, Okidogi, Fez, and Lokix all have niches in the OU tier outside of checking Darkrai. Dogi is a Tspike sponge and Zama check, AV Pex is a Fairy resist that lures Gambit with Tera Fighting, Fezan punishes special offense threats, and Lokix is a decent anti-offense mon.

With how big special threats are rn, I expected Assault Vest to gain popularity, and Darkrai only incentivized it. AV is a legit item in this tier despite the presence of Spikes. Offensive structures appreciate being able to sponge special hits and trade with these bulky threats while being able to support them with Cinder or Tusk.

Reason #4 Darkrai’s Value To The Tier

On the surface, Darkrai is just a big fast button clicker, but it provides more to the tier than that.

• Darkrai is a rare fast wallbreaker. Kyurem has an issue with speed and Wogre can’t hold Boots. Darkrai being able to hold whatever item it wants while being the 4th fastest unboosted mon in the tier is a reason why Darkrai is the go-to breaker on offense. It’s splashable, reliable, and fast.

•Scarf Darkrai is one of the few great scarfers in the tier we have. Darkrai’s good ass 135 SpA, Valiant-outspeeding Speed tier, and utility pool of Wisp and/or Trick makes it the best scarfer we had in the tier. Scarf Ghold and Samu are good but not reliable for rkilling, Scarf Meow barely scratches Valiant, Scarf Enamorus is rocks weak and shit outside of Healing Wish shenanigans. Rai gives teams a splashable speed control option that blitzes past the common Boosters and setup sweepers.

•Darkrai is not just a fast breaker, but also a fast utility mon. It has access to Wisp and T-Wave. Unlike Dragapult, Darkrai hits harder, OHKOs Gliscor with Ice Beam, and baits in Wisp targets more reliably. Knock Off lets Darkrai act as item removal and become the ultimate stall killer with Spikes up. Having that sort of utility helps teams deal with offense and defense.

•Darkrai punishes auto-piloty builds. Think of these Cinder/Lando/Gking offenses that are easy to use and have good percentage of matchups. Some of these teams don’t have a response to Darkrai, often relying on lead Cinder, KG praying its not Focus Miss, and Gking being forced to Tera. Its not an outright 6-0d, but they do have to use their brain now.

Reason #5 Ima’s Darkrai Rap

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-metagame-discussion-v4-olt-hype.3732644/post-10167586

Everyone knows that if you make a sick rap beat on Soundcloud with Chat GPT arguing a mon is healthy, it has to be balanced.

jk, but that was epic.

Blaming Darkrai on the “downfall of Fat” is unproductive. Standard Balance teams still see use, Fat Balance is just bad lol, and its not gonna magically become good if Darkrai goes. It still has to contend with Wogre, Kyu, SD Gliscor, CM Bolt, offensive Lando, Ghold, Sub-CM Enam, Future Sight, Prima, etc. The only annoying set is 3 Attacks Wisp, but having Darkrai led to a creative period of the tier and develops the meta to an interesting spot.

TL;DR, don’t ban the goat.

 

[sims796]

I don't wanna clutter up with a bunch of low tier mons, this is OU after all, but I'll ask opinions on how Scream Tail might fare nowadays (still an OU relevant topic I suppose). Fast, bulky, plenty of support, Wish passing, perish or Encore to stop setups, Screen setting. I'm just spit balling here but now that things seem to be settling down despite the troublesome mons being spoken about, off-meta counter picks looks to be in season, and it may have a niche I'm too lazy to explore.

Like Clefable with more support.

 

[RyukTheDarkrai]

I don't wanna clutter up with a bunch of low tier mons, this is OU after all, but I'll ask opinions on how Scream Tail might fare nowadays (still an OU relevant topic I suppose). Fast, bulky, plenty of support, Wish passing, perish or Encore to stop setups, Screen setting. I'm just spit balling here but now that things seem to be settling down despite the troublesome mons being spoken about, off-meta counter picks looks to be in season, and it may have a niche I'm too lazy to explore.

Like Clefable with more support.

Tried it on Sun teams in place of Hatterene, the massive spike in bulk, Speed and ability to heal its team with Wish without sacrificing itself is absolutely massive but there are a ton of issues that hold it back. Nevermind not reflecting status moves, Scream Tail is incredibly passive to the point its Dazzling Gleam will never OHKO Roaring Moon without Rocks and at least one layer of Spikes. Its reliance on Wish means it's restricted in what it wants to run (only one slot for Encore, Perish Song, Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock). Being prone to status isn't particularly fun either when both Clefable and Hatterene are basically immune to it (the latter isn't safe from Sludge Bomb poisoning but it reflects Toxic and other hazards and what have you). I think there are better screen setters too.

I really do love the fact that this thing can eat Tera Ice Specs Kyurem Ice Beams like it's nothing and provides titanic Wishes, but I don't think it was meant to be. A lackluster Type combo leaves it reliant on Protosynthesis (or dual screens) and it's utterly terrified of Toxic, unlike its competition.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 78+ SpD Protosynthesis Scream Tail: 170-202 (39.1 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO