I play the tier. I play the tier semi-regularly. Ghold being seen less doesn't mean it's not a problem. Glimm probably wouldn't suddenly find space as a long term spinner but it would get objectively better, and yes I do think the defoggers would suddenly gain more usage because the defog button would actually do something. Balloon Gholdengo chunks great tusk too hard to ever be able to spin later in the game, does similar things with treads, and none of the other hazard removers can beat it bar talonflame.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [PALAFIN RETEST]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Other than Corviknight (who is already running Defog at 60%), which defoggers do you expect to see sudden jumps in usage?
Mandibuzz. Corv would also just get even better
Glimm might get better, but it would be by such a small amount that finding a needle in a haystack would be bigger than its viability jump.
Defog users is basically limited to corv getting better, so not a whole lot more. Scizor is just not good in this meta, and it will never run defog if it wants to be good. Mandibuzz wants to run knock off, foul play, roost, iron defense, taunt and toxic before it wants to run defog, so it wouldn't become better. Geezing would probably become a tiny bit better, but its main niche right now is that it can defog on ghold with NG, being able to run levitate is nice but not being able to prevent gliscor's toxic heal and regenerator is not as nice. Even with just corv, it would become not much better, it would be a tier jump at that from B+ to A-.
Tusk can easily ice spinner on the predicted ghold switch in, which I always do to make sure ghold doesn't come in for free. And then ghold can't reliably come in on a rapid spinner to save its life in fear of headlong rush. Treads can do something similar, with iron head to pop the balloon. And tidy up mons ignore ghold so they wouldn't really benefit.
literally what is the point in this discussion. mon got an average survey score of 2.7, it's very obvious gholdengo is not going anywhere unless some insane meta shifts take place within the coming months. it's either adapt or die at this point, there's no use in reviving this discussion over and over again
Only mon I think would spike in usage is Corv. This Pokemon is already fantastic even with Ghold in the tier and is able to at least partially stave off many of the more annoying mons such as Zamazenta and Gambit with ID + BP, as well as do well in a number of other MUs such as against stall & Gliscor. It also forms powerful cores with the likes of GKing, Gliscor, Clodsire, etc. I'm still finding great success using it as a Defogger even with Ghold around, though it has its fair share of weaknesses such as being completely shut down by Taunt and getting worn down too fast.
GWeezing maybe could see more usage, but I think its niche is derrived more from neutralizing Gas anyways since that lets it shut down regen Mola, Gliscor, etc.
I don't think Mandibuzz has room for Defog this gen, you want to run too many moves between ID, Knock, Roost, Toxic, Foul Play, etc. You also get farmed by Gliscor anyways unless glisc is running SD.
Other niche shit like Avalugg and Cryogonal probably get better in Gholdless tier. That being said, you gotta stretch to justify using them as is.
As a Ghold enjoyer, the one silver lining of Gouging potentially staying is that the likelihood of a Ghold ban whenever it is sussed would be lower.
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It would definetely be more popular on fat teams, but i think the days where you would see corv in BO/balancey type teams are long gone, even with the ghold ban. That's why i said i don't think it would really "spike", but i do agree that it would be better in the kind of teams it's already used in.
Is there a reason most Hoodra run sap sipper? you already take negative damage from grass attacks. Here is the optimal set:
@ Leftovers
Ability: Shell Armor
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Acid Armor
- Rest
- Dragon Tail
- Body Press
its priceless watching people recognise their situation and start to fish for critical hits. aint gonna happen with shell armor
@ Leftovers Ability: Shell Armor
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Acid Armor
- Rest
- Dragon Tail
- Body Press
its priceless watching people recognise their situation and start to fish for critical hits. aint gonna happen with shell armor
It's probably just because of the attack boost, which is good for physical stes. Taking no damage can be good in a game of inches such as Pokemon as for example while arch also double resisted grass, an immunity means that boosted hits don't chip you.Is there a reason most Hoodra run sap sipper? you already take negative damage from grass attacks. Here is the optimal set:
Ability: Shell Armor
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Acid Armor
- Rest
- Dragon Tail
- Body Press
its priceless watching people recognise their situation and start to fish for critical hits. aint gonna happen with shell armor
I think it's up to personal preference, for me completely blanking the move feels good.
Tera is the main reason. Immunity + Tera is a powerful combination to give mons really unique defensive profiles. Tera Water + Sap Sipper lets you stonewall most Volcarona variants for example, while Tera Fairy + Sap Sipper stuffs Rillaboom and Meowscarada.Is there a reason most Hoodra run sap sipper? you already take negative damage from grass attacks. Here is the optimal set:
Ability: Shell Armor
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Acid Armor
- Rest
- Dragon Tail
- Body Press
its priceless watching people recognise their situation and start to fish for critical hits. aint gonna happen with shell armor
Tera Normal + Sap Sipper lets you wall serperior
you could do that already but tera normal is bad so it's funny
Wait, I don't think normal types are unaffected by glare.
Tera ghost I think is what you are talking about, though I may be dumb and glare has no immunities.
But tera normal is funny, so I'll stick with it. Just like my tera normal, normal gem explosion Garg.
Glare has no immunities bar things that are globally immune to Paralysis, such as Pokémon with Limber and Electric types (post-gen 6).
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Is there a reason most Hoodra run sap sipper? you already take negative damage from grass attacks. Here is the optimal set:
Ability: Shell Armor
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Acid Armor
- Rest
- Dragon Tail
- Body Press
its priceless watching people recognise their situation and start to fish for critical hits. aint gonna happen with shell armor
I'm surprised no one mention that Sap Sipper would also block status moves. The main one is currently Leech Seed which isn't worth the ability imo, but when Spore was running around it had more utility. It also blocks Strength Sap and Stun Spore I guess, and Sleep Powder but again, banned now, both those are more relevant in lower tiers.
people that complains about this metagame being dominated by hazards has definitely not played old gens that used to have several good spikers and ghost types, then mediocre spinners or very exploitable ones.
Also I think this metagame adapted well to hazards with spamming boots builds even on offensive mons such Dragapult & Samurott-h, and Great Tusk which is a great spinner and easy to fit on half of the teams.
Then Gholdengo individually I think at every archetype style has solid checks, against offensive builds is not that good because is not that fast and Make it rain drop sucks when you faces Volcarona, Ragging bolt, Gouging fire, Dragonite, etc. Simply doesn't have the speed needed to pass those builds, specially when you faces Heavy Offense builds, and Weather teams like Sun and Rain. Against stall matchup is kinda meh since most stalls runs as staples on every built blissey + clodsire that can deal with all Gholdengo set. Their matchup against balance is probably the strongest since those builds can't afford to run a defensive backbone enough strong to deal with Gholdengo in the long run (Clodsire + Blissey pretty much) but those builds are not enough fast and strong to pressure Gholdengo really fast, even then balance builts has solid checks like Ting Lu or Kingambit, plus another offensive revenge killers such Dragapult, Meowscara and Samurott-H among others that can immediately threat Gholdengo and kill it / force to switch out.
Its just a very good mon, offers many utilities in just one slot so there is no risk when to put a Gholdengo in a team, will work fine in a similar way to Great Tusk (and Dragapult, Kingambit by extension).
Also I think this metagame adapted well to hazards with spamming boots builds even on offensive mons such Dragapult & Samurott-h, and Great Tusk which is a great spinner and easy to fit on half of the teams.
Then Gholdengo individually I think at every archetype style has solid checks, against offensive builds is not that good because is not that fast and Make it rain drop sucks when you faces Volcarona, Ragging bolt, Gouging fire, Dragonite, etc. Simply doesn't have the speed needed to pass those builds, specially when you faces Heavy Offense builds, and Weather teams like Sun and Rain. Against stall matchup is kinda meh since most stalls runs as staples on every built blissey + clodsire that can deal with all Gholdengo set. Their matchup against balance is probably the strongest since those builds can't afford to run a defensive backbone enough strong to deal with Gholdengo in the long run (Clodsire + Blissey pretty much) but those builds are not enough fast and strong to pressure Gholdengo really fast, even then balance builts has solid checks like Ting Lu or Kingambit, plus another offensive revenge killers such Dragapult, Meowscara and Samurott-H among others that can immediately threat Gholdengo and kill it / force to switch out.
Its just a very good mon, offers many utilities in just one slot so there is no risk when to put a Gholdengo in a team, will work fine in a similar way to Great Tusk (and Dragapult, Kingambit by extension).
To be frank I don't get this, older gens have less spikers and more ways to deal with said spikers:
Gen 3 has skarm setting spikes as one of the best mons in the tier, but there are two viable spinners rather than just one, magneton to limit skarm's spikes outright, and the only ghost in the tier is very threatened by the two spinners
Gen 4 has a spikes problem between the introduction of the rotom forms and the mons in gen 3 that used to run spin falling off, yes, but even then starmie still exists to remove hazards, and the tier has multiple magnet pull mons to limit the spikes output from the most viable spikes setter, which is skarmory
Gens 5 and 6 have excadrill, and in the latter it is the literal best mon in the tier
Gen 7 has much wider defog distribution, including the genies, the tapus, rotom-wash, and gliscor as well as excadrill still being in the tier
And we all know that this wasn't an issue in gen 8
Spikes is a much more constricting presence now in gen 9 has been in any gen before it, except for the times when the deoxys forms were allowed in the tier, or when excadrill was banned entirely and magic guard teams took over the meta
Edit forgot to mention what it's being compared to:
Gen 9 has one viable spinner - that is extremely threatened by ghost types - no viable magnet pull pokemon - which doesn't matter anyway since skarmory is no longer the best spikes setter by a wide margin - 0 viable defoggers, and 3 very relevant spikes setters which all have wildly different counterplay, unlike the previous gens where the spikes mons could generally be dealt with in a similar way. Looking at all of this why do you think balance teams have largely just decided to run 6 spikes immunities
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Have you played much 3-6 OU? Spikes are incredibly important, finding themselves present and stacked in a large portion of games. Excadrill is a great piece, but it doesn’t exactly assure Spikes control. Removal is never regularly guaranteed.
there's actually two viable rapid spinners (since iron treads doesn't seem to be leaving the tier anytime soon) and both of them are infinitely better than any spinner that came before. even excadrill, the previous best rapid spinner in competitive singles history, is largely outclassed by both great tusk and especially iron treads in the current meta and for good reason. there's also hatterene, who is far more efficient as a magic bounce user than espeon and xatu, and we even recieved a completely new form of hazard control in court change cinderace. most importantly we now have an item that completely ignores hazard chip altogether and has been a staple on defensive teams since its introduction. the issue of hazards vs removers really is not as bad as you think it is if you're comparing it to BW
Tusk has Knock Off
Many of them probably arry Boots for this reason.
Not that it will happen anytime soon, but the biggest change in getting rid of ghold wouldn't be spikes but sticky web teams. The only mons I could see getting a bump in usage with defog becoming more reliable would be mandi and corv and I think that's honestly good enough. Having a way to reliably get rid of webs would probably heavily neuter the playstyle (not that I find it particularly problematic).
In terms of how it would impact spikes and sr- it's hard to say. I think there's too many spikers and too many ways to put pressure on the defoggers. It would be nice to have a reliable hazard remover with reliable longevity that is also independently good/decent which I would argue doesn't really exist in the tier.
This is just one faucet of the meta though - there are more pressing things in the tier.
In terms of how it would impact spikes and sr- it's hard to say. I think there's too many spikers and too many ways to put pressure on the defoggers. It would be nice to have a reliable hazard remover with reliable longevity that is also independently good/decent which I would argue doesn't really exist in the tier.
This is just one faucet of the meta though - there are more pressing things in the tier.
Removing spikes in ADV is not as easy as you might thing. Something occasionally said about Skarm is that it’s a spinblocker in its own way. Dol and Mie are the best spinners in the tier. Toxic + Drill Peck can 1v1 Claydol and win the Spikes war. Starmie has a better shot thanks to 32 Recover pp and Natural Cure, but Toxic still puts it on a timer and forced it to switch put eventually, meaning Skarm can still get up a Spike. Plus defensive Mie doesn’t have enough horsepower to threaten Skarm much since they run SpD investment.
DPP has very few good spinners. Starmie is good, but gets threatened by Scarf Tar and Scarf Rotom. Donphan (yes its viable in DPP) can Foresight to click Spin on Ghosts, but Hydro Pump from Rotom threatens it, and Tusk doesn’t have the longevity Starmie does, and Forretress…is Forretress. It is often why defensive teams gear towards running multiple spike immune mons like Latias, Clef, Flygon, and Bronzong.
Things get a bit better in BW. Excadrill is a great spinner that can actually threaten Jellicent, the main spinblocker, and Skarm with SD boosts. Tentacruel only fits on Rain but puts Jelli on a timer with Toxic and can 1v1 Ferro after a burn. Starmie is also still decent, but loses to the best Spiker in the tier Ferrothron, even with Scald burns into the mix.
Despite only having four hazard control options, we should be thankful for the ones we actually have, albeit small.
Close to a month ago I made a Spikes guide if you haven’t checked it out.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/10008679/
There are also others ways of dealing with Spikes, even when you’re not running 6 boots mons. Simply making your teams offensive enough to deter opportunities is enough. Heck, Balance teams don’t even need to run boots on everything either. We’ve seen Tusk/Gking/Gambit Balances find success on ladder and SPL.
If you’re letting them get off three Spikes that easily, either you played overly passive or played recklessly with your Tusk. Again, SV OU is very punishing to passive or reckless plays, and I respect that. Whether the tier is balanced or not, that’s up for debate. Personally, I think we are very close to a staple metagame and the issues brought up by the playerbase are a bit overreactive. Some players wanna run passive, do-nothing teams and having a counter to everything rather than accepting that this generation is more offensive than the previous.
Even then, every archetype is viable. Stall is still consistent into the mid and high ladder. HO is HO. Balance is slowly reshaping itself to fit with the rest of the meta, and BO made a comeback with options like Lando and Dnite circumventing alot of their former issues.
Anyways, I have a spicy write-up coming up later, but first, I wanna ask.
Spring is coming and everyone’s lawns are wet and invaded with weeds. Anyone wanna borrow my lawn mower?
Nice list.
A few things worth adding.
Temper Flare Tusk is really good. 150 BP Temper Flare OHKOs offensive balloon Ghold attempting to spin block. Also deals massive damage to Skarm coming in on EQ. This lets Tusk click Spin and Ground STAB a lot more freely since it can easily punish the most common switch ins on H-Stack.
Corviknight is a decent remover that merits a mention. It can’t Defog vs Ghold, but recently we’re seen a decline in Ghold usage out of the Top 3 as the meta has become more punishing towards Old Moneybags. And Corv has an excellent matchup vs Hamurott and Glisc. I wouldn’t recommend having Corv as your sole remover, but it’s an excellent partner to other forms of hazard control like Tusk or Hatterene.
Finally, Mortal Spin Glimmora is a solid option on HO. Earth Power and Power Gem can 2HKO Gholdengo and Skarmory, respectively.
Gholdengo causing all this conversation again? He's harmless, he just wants the spikes and rocks to stay forever due to his anxious attachment but he means no harm 