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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Ctann said:
The OU community has already demonstrated it’s willing to vote no-ban on “broken” pokemon if they’re providing value at checking other “broken” pokemon.

the most significant examples are the Kingambit suspect and the Kyurem suspect. There are too many swing voters that use reasons similar to “well it checks x, y, z and makes it more bearable, so no-ban”

The order of suspects is really important Finchinator, hopefully the order chosen is logical and based on the “broken” that checks the least amount of other “broken” Pokémon’s first
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It’s usually determine based on community survey scores if there’s a noteworthy gap like there was in both suspects you mentioned. It’s not our job to guess alternate motives so much as it is to adhere to the best tiering process.

Kyurem hardly checked rain and that whole argument was dogshit anyway if we are being honest. People are just not always going to use sound logic — same happened plenty with Arch and other suspects that got banned. You even have guys saying no bans should happen at all. It is what it is.
 
Finchinator said:
It’s usually determine based on community survey scores if there’s a noteworthy gap like there was in both suspects you mentioned. It’s not our job to guess alternate motives so much as it is to adhere to the best tiering process.

Kyurem hardly checked rain and that whole argument was dogshit anyway if we are being honest. People are just not always going to use sound logic — same happened plenty with Arch and other suspects that got banned. You even have guys saying no bans should happen at all. It is what it is.
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Noted, I was commenting on the proposed order of bolt first. It’s got really good defensive value and this might tip the scales during a vote …

might need to phrase the question as “which pokemon would you want to see suspected the most immediately”, rather than 1-5 how do you see this pokemon.
 
Anchor9 said:
I just lost to the most stupid thing ever. Proof that people bring the most random things even up in the 1600s:

Drifblim @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Electric
- Strength Sap
- Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power

Like, why?! Again, WHY?!!!!
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Nah this is almost a legit set. I remember it was seeing a bit of use in the late Home meta, but usually not with Stored Power. It could strangely 1v1 a lot of things but I'm not sure if it's kept up with the DLC additions.
 
RaikouLover said:
Haven't dropped a salt post in a while.

Glad Arch is gone. This meta is still painful. At minimum Tera Blast is bullshit and needs to go. This is the most matchupy gen ever. List of broken things now that Archacump is gone is still:

TERA
Tera Blast
Raging Bolt
Kingambit
Gliscor
Gouging Fire
Volcarona
Ogerpon-Wellspring
Kyurem
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if 7 different mons are busted none of them are. then thats just becomes the metas power level
 
So I tried Weather Ball Raging Bolt on a normal team. You know, no classic rain or sun weather but with Glowking for boltbeam coverage. The thing is that I almost never clicked weather ball so far. In theory, it seems useful for ground types. But Draco does more or less the same thing. I found myself actually missing Calm Mind or a even third electric move in some cases. Weather Ball is just so weak outside of actual weather.

So yeah, predicting if Weather Ball is on Bolt should be very easy depending on the team comp. Basically, just rain or sun with the very occasional Glowking or A-tails team tech.

On the other hand, there seems to be a lot of potential for unexplored sets. I have tried an Assault Vest variant to make it a slow pivot. It works pretty well so far. I personally wanted to try a Dragon Cheer crit set and maybe even a silly Zap Cannon Blunder Policy set. Just want to see how jank I can get with it before it falls off too much. However, there are also potentially more legit options like Taunt, Snarl, T-Wave, Discharge, Roar, Dragon Tail, Stomping Tantrum, Body Press, and maybe even Solar Beam on Sun. I think most would just prefer the common offensive sets just for the raw power. But this isn't all Bolt can do.

samohi0 said:
if 7 different mons are busted none of them are. then thats just becomes the metas power level
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If that was true, why do we have way more than twice that in bans with more bans coming?
 
Bold School said:
If that was true, why do we have way more than twice that in bans with more bans coming?
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Because some things were busted when others weren't, and we just kept knocking down dominos in the chain. Pretty soon we'll have 20 unique bans to this gen if the new games don't come out soon enough, i reckon. Slowly whittling away at the meta's power level. While a higher level isn't by necessity better because its higher, neither is it being lower better because of the sheer virtue that it's being lower.
 
KamenOH said:
Because some things were busted when others weren't, and we just kept knocking down dominos in the chain. Pretty soon we'll have 20 unique bans to this gen if the new games don't come out soon enough, i reckon. Slowly whittling away at the meta's power level. While a higher level isn't by necessity better because its higher, neither is it being lower better because of the sheer virtue that it's being lower.
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I do sympathize with the sentiment of increased power levels to an extent. However, the idea that an arbitrary number like 7 can't be broken is just flat not true. Gen 9 power creep is insane. And while I tend to lean on the side of as little bans as reasonable myself, in no way do I think anywhere near only 7 mons are broken in this gen regardless of Tera or dominos falling. While Tera makes this worse, it isn't the entire problem.

You'll notice many of the arguments now relate to stress on the teambuilder. There is a reason for that. This aspect isn't necesarrily analogous to just higher or lower power levels. The playstyles that are viable at the moment are not that many.
 
Acshually the most broken pokemon is vivillon. Its really mad about sleep ban and has joined the gang with macgargo abd friends to over throw the current council. Its especially scary as it can hurricane confuse u through compound eyes.



Now I would say the most bullshit mon is probably
Kingambit>Moon>Kyurem>Gouging fire>Raging bolt
Gambit is 100% more dumb than bolt..

PS: lets unban Ho Oh. Just to see how broken it will be.. Might be able to answer kingamble and kyurem well.. It cant be the most dumb mon to drop to OU. Its attack stat is just same as flareon an SU mon... and valiant sneasler and urshifus.. we had more bullshit mons like flutter bundle palafin sneasler espathra last respects.. Also it gives a way to answer the dangerous viv+macgargo trying to overthrow council.

Do I think it will be unbanned?nope.will I hope? Yes
 
Bruxish supremacy said:
Acshually the most broken pokemon is vivillon. Its really mad about sleep ban and has joined the gang with macgargo abd friends to over throw the current council. Its especially scary as it can hurricane confuse u through compound eyes.



Now I would say the most bullshit mon is probably
Kingambit>Moon>Kyurem>Gouging fire>Raging bolt
Gambit is 100% more dumb than bolt..

PS: lets unban Ho Oh. Just to see how broken it will be.. Might be able to answer kingamble and kyurem well.. It cant be the most dumb mon to drop to OU. Its attack stat is just same as flareon an SU mon... and valiant sneasler and urshifus.. we had more bullshit mons like flutter bundle palafin sneasler espathra last respects.. Also it gives a way to answer the dangerous viv+macgargo trying to overthrow council.

Do I think it will be unbanned?nope.will I hope? Yes
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You know what, this guy is on to something. I say we unban eternamax eternatus, it has 10 less special attack than darkrai and has the same speed stat as jolteon, which is an NU mon. With the defensive typing of poison/dragon, it could help out with ogerpon-wellspring, raging bolt, gouging fire and kyurem. It is worse than flutter mane as that had 135 in speed and sp.Attack, so this clearly would be balanced. Trust me guys, I know what I'm talking about. We didn't let it get the limelight in Gen 8 and I think it would be balanced this gen due to the immense powercreep.
 
samohi0 said:
You are trying to force a lower power level on a game that has clearly risen I personally only find kyurem bolt and volc worthy of consideration
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It's fair to say those, because most people only have 3 mons on their radar as broken, with 5 being the max. Something like zamazenta or darkrai would have been broken in Gen 8 but in this gen due to power creep they are managable.
 
samohi0 said:
You are trying to force a lower power level on a game that has clearly risen I personally only find kyurem bolt and volc worthy of consideration
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First of all, no I'm not. I am not a staff, moderator, or even a particuarly influential player. I just post my opinions on the forum sometimes. There is no power here for me to force anyone to do anything. The votes themselves have to do with the community at large. And if you are talking about the community at large, they have resisted banning quite a few things including the Kyurem you say is broken.

Second, I'm not even necesarrily for a particularly lower power level. I wasn't even pro Kyurem ban and I am flat anti-Bolt ban. That's 2 of the 3 mons you mentioned. I believe other things to be broken instead like Roaring Moon, Gouging Fire, and actually D-Speed.

Third, you never answered my question about why we have WAY more than 7 bans if there can't be 7 broken mons. Forcing the meta to a lower power level isn't an answer. You mentioned nothing addressing the banning process, the lack of viable play styles, or even something to back up your claims of 7 being too much. It's an argument without any argument. Like why 7? Why not 6 or 8? Or maybe we could actually look at it on a case by case basis.
 
Bold School said:
First of all, no I'm not. I am not a staff, moderator, or even a particuarly influential player. I just post my opinions on the forum sometimes. There is no power here for me to force anyone to do anything. The votes themselves have to do with the community at large. And if you are talking about the community at large, they have resisted banning quite a few things including the Kyurem you say is broken.

Second, I'm not even necesarrily for a particularly lower power level. I wasn't even pro Kyurem ban and I am flat anti-Bolt ban. That's 2 of the 3 mons you mentioned. I believe other things to be broken instead like Roaring Moon, Gouging Fire, and actually D-Speed.

Third, you never answered my question about why we have WAY more than 7 bans if there can't be 7 broken mons. Forcing the meta to a lower power level isn't an answer. You mentioned nothing addressing the banning process, the lack of viable play styles, or even something to back up your claims of 7 being too much. It's an argument without any argument. Like why 7? Why not 6 or 8? Or maybe we could actually look at it on a case by case basis.
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it’s a meta you can’t look at a case by case basis you have to look at the whole picture. If the meta is being warped around 1 or 2 mons than it is a problem if it’s being built around 10 it’s just the fucking meta
 
do you guys have any ideas to make this sun team (i rlllly like it its very colorful and fancy) from the samples not actually lose to stall, i tweaked some of the sets to my preferences but ngl its still loses to stall ;-; its so hard to have some fun when all u do is run into stall wannabes.
https://pokepast.es/b1a25a406b672210

i know some ppl here are going to say im here to cry about me being unable to beat stall when i just wanted to see if anyone has suggestions so i can play a team i actually like without getting owned by stall. i think stall is terrible in sv ou (and im entitled to my opinion) and u just feed on clueless people who dont know how to dismantle it so heres something

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1708418133730.png

1708418145350.png

js if i bring my own creations i usually dont fail to dismantle most ladder stalls within 20-30 turns, ladder rly do be plagued with stuff like this cos all the recent hot rmts were stall
 
samohi0 said:
it’s a meta you can’t look at a case by case basis you have to look at the whole picture. If the meta is being warped around 1 or 2 mons than it is a problem if it’s being built around 10 it’s just the fucking meta
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While this may seem true, their is something called "threat saturation", in which their are so many dangerous threats that you need to account for that teambuilding becomes incredibly restricted. This is the case right now, as you have to account for all of kyurem, gouging fire, roaring moon, raging bolt, volcarona, kingambit and even some other less problematic mons such as dragapult, weavile, iron valiant, zamazenta, darkrai and serperior. You have to try to account for most of these, which is incredibly hard to do. If you don't, then you can potentially insta-lose to them, which is not an indicator of a healthy metagame.
 
Bold School said:
First of all, no I'm not. I am not a staff, moderator, or even a particuarly influential player. I just post my opinions on the forum sometimes. There is no power here for me to force anyone to do anything. The votes themselves have to do with the community at large. And if you are talking about the community at large, they have resisted banning quite a few things including the Kyurem you say is broken.

Second, I'm not even necesarrily for a particularly lower power level. I wasn't even pro Kyurem ban and I am flat anti-Bolt ban. That's 2 of the 3 mons you mentioned. I believe other things to be broken instead like Roaring Moon, Gouging Fire, and actually D-Speed.

Third, you never answered my question about why we have WAY more than 7 bans if there can't be 7 broken mons. Forcing the meta to a lower power level isn't an answer. You mentioned nothing addressing the banning process, the lack of viable play styles, or even something to back up your claims of 7 being too much. It's an argument without any argument. Like why 7? Why not 6 or 8? Or maybe we could actually look at it on a case by case basis.
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To be fair, anyone here that post their opinions can be an influence. If someone comes to the forums to read the views of other players, their views become to take hold of what majority of players say. Not saying their opinions are wrong but I’ve seen a lot of players still unhappy with the format. As an opinion, not by influence, give the meta at least two weeks before we start screaming for bans again. Something that we want ban may be holding check more with arch gone or maybe not. Time will tell.
 
weirdo faye said:
do you guys have any ideas to make this sun team (i rlllly like it its very colorful and fancy) from the samples not actually lose to stall, i tweaked some of the sets to my preferences but ngl its still loses to stall ;-; its so hard to have some fun when all u do is run into stall wannabes.
https://pokepast.es/b1a25a406b672210

i know some ppl here are going to say im here to cry about me being unable to beat stall when i just wanted to see if anyone has suggestions so i can play a team i actually like without getting owned by stall. i think stall is terrible in sv ou (and im entitled to my opinion) and u just feed on clueless people who dont know how to dismantle it so heres something

View attachment 606223
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View attachment 606226

js if i bring my own creations i usually dont fail to dismantle most ladder stalls within 20-30 turns, ladder rly do be plagued with stuff like this cos all the recent hot rmts were stall
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Swap out the gouging fire set for choice band, that can break stall really easily with raging fury. Then to compensate, swap the roaring moon set for dd. It may not seem like a lot, but it could help as gouging's raw power can help break a stall team. You also have to play carefully against a stall team and try to get guarenteed progress such as knock off. Sometimes you just have to persevre and keep trying to get a predict right.
 
Maybe a tentative suspect agenda would be a good idea?
Like if people can't justify wanting to ban x because it checks y and makes the game more bearable or y deserves to be banned more, so x can't be banned becomes a weaker argument if they know that it is going to be suspected next unless something comes up like Archaludon landing an 85% win rate or a mon becoming a clear non-issue. Generally, it seems like there are too many offensive threats that require very specific answers, so the goal is to get the community to decide which ones they want to keep.

If a suspect agenda doesn't work, I'm personally not too opposed to the nuclear option where all of them are banned and retested one by one. For these retests, I would want the threshold to be a simple majority since imo it's more democratic. A supermajority requirement increases the power of no voters. They can always undergo a traditional suspect later if the unban proves to be a mistake. It also gives us the opportunity to feel the meta with and without these mons.
 
Sacrificial Lambtias said:
Maybe a tentative suspect agenda would be a good idea?
Like if people can't justify wanting to ban x because it checks y and makes the game more bearable or y deserves to be banned more, so x can't be banned becomes a weaker argument if they know that it is going to be suspected next unless something comes up like Archaludon landing an 85% win rate or a mon becoming a clear non-issue. Generally, it seems like there are too many offensive threats that require very specific answers, so the goal is to get the community to decide which ones they want to keep.

If a suspect agenda doesn't work, I'm personally not too opposed to the nuclear option where all of them are banned and retested one by one. For these retests, I would want the threshold to be a simple majority since imo it's more democratic. A supermajority requirement increases the power of no voters. They can always undergo a traditional suspect later if the unban proves to be a mistake. It also gives us the opportunity to feel the meta with and without these mons.
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The first option wouldn't work because you forgot one important aspect, people are dumb and this method while it may seem nice, wouldn't work and we would just have the same exact dilemmal. Like, some people may see raging bolt as a bigger threat, but if gouging fire was suspected first they would vote DNB even if they knew raging bolt would be next because they are close minded like that. Most people are not like that, but the few that are will be very vocal about it, which may influence others.
The second option is called the kokoloko tiering method. It was used in Gen 6 UU, but most people avoid it because it is a last resort scenario. The metagame right now is not in that state and it would still most likely cause discourse. If you would like to learn more about it, search in google "kokoloko method", and it should be the "Let me explain" tab.
 
Is a ghost spam balance team with like specs dragapult and specs ghold viable anymore, like it was in gen 8? If it is, can I please have some ideas for such a team?
 
Heatranator said:
You know what, this guy is on to something. I say we unban eternamax eternatus, it has 10 less special attack than darkrai and has the same speed stat as jolteon, which is an NU mon. With the defensive typing of poison/dragon, it could help out with ogerpon-wellspring, raging bolt, gouging fire and kyurem. It is worse than flutter mane as that had 135 in speed and sp.Attack, so this clearly would be balanced. Trust me guys, I know what I'm talking about. We didn't let it get the limelight in Gen 8 and I think it would be balanced this gen due to the immense powercreep.
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Acsually it won't be a bad idea if u can catch eternamax eternatus.. Unfortunately outside of hackmons u can't actually catch eternamax eternatus..
 
Conflux123 said:
Is a ghost spam balance team with like specs dragapult and specs ghold viable anymore, like it was in gen 8? If it is, can I please have some ideas for such a team?
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I mean, there are only three ghost types in the tier, though something like Double Status Dragapult and Scarf Hex Ghold could work together to defeat checks. You would need a dark type, so Gambit could work. Also include a fighting type to destroy dark types that could get in your way. Sadly, due to the limited amount of ghost type, it is difficult to build a team like that. This is a sample team that I quickly whipped up you could experiment and tweak with.
https://pokepast.es/40ef3c9e0648f7ce
 
Heatranator said:
The first option wouldn't work because you forgot one important aspect, people are dumb and this method while it may seem nice, wouldn't work and we would just have the same exact dilemmal. Like, some people may see raging bolt as a bigger threat, but if gouging fire was suspected first they would vote DNB even if they knew raging bolt would be next because they are close minded like that. Most people are not like that, but the few that are will be very vocal about it, which may influence others.
The second option is called the kokoloko tiering method. It was used in Gen 6 UU, but most people avoid it because it is a last resort scenario. The metagame right now is not in that state and it would still most likely cause discourse. If you would like to learn more about it, search in google "kokoloko method", and it should be the "Let me explain" tab.
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Fully aware of the name and what it is, but the scenario you describe sounds like one where the traditional suspect process is doomed to fail because nobody can reach a consensus on what to ban first because there are too many broken mons. So unless there's another option, the Kokoloko method seems worth considering.
 
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