Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Finchinator said:
snip
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I could say a lot about this response, but I'll leave it at the fact that I did not go into my initial post about SC wanting to compare Naclstack to Diglett. The idea that I think their roles are even remotely comparable (when I don't) is a point people seem to be missing, and (once again) correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall people saying Diglett would have anything resembling a niche until it came up on people's radar's how BS AT/Duggy was, or that banning AT in place of the mon could be seen as a solution.

I'm referring to the effect that some times comes up that a lower tier mon replaces that niche bought about by something being busted or unhealthy - not because I think that Stack and Diglett are somehow the same mon. I never said this. The only comparison I made there was the negative effect on the defensive integrity of a meta came off as disturbingly similar.

I made other posts about this, and people are acting like me mentioning Naclstack is the only thing I've said today. If you want me to lurk more - fine, I'm willing to do that. But I would suggest you please re-read my post. Deal?
 
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Finchinator said:
There was a clear focus on Gouging Fire being a broken Pokemon in the metagame. Metagame scores on the survey were not dramatically higher or lower. The numbers do not even support what you are saying, but you conveniently ignored that part of the survey curiously.
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The numbers being close agrees with what i'm saying because it's once again contradicting your statement. I.e. over 4 on survey does not equal supermajority.
Finchinator said:
A 91% super-majority on a Pokemon who got well over a 4 on the survey makes sense regardless of the rest of the metagame.
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Finchinator said:
The funny thing is I literally agreed that we are likely to act aggressively and yet you still are playing this bizarre spin-zone game for some unknown reason. Give it a break. A ban happened. More tiering action is going to happen. Not everything needs to be an attack.
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Literally all I wanted was swift action on the next suspect and that more action was needed on the tier - I even kindly asked. You're the one who took it as an attack...
senorlopez said:
I would kindly ask the council to swiftly move on to the next suspect - A 91% super-majority for a ban in a settled meta is more indicative of the state of the tier rather than the actual mon itself.
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Stop equating the health of the tier as a reflection of your personal performance. I think you've done a relatively good job as tier leader in comparison to previous iterations. Does that mean you've been perfect? No, no one is. Does an attack on the tier equate to an attack on you? Also No.
 
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So long, Gay Porn.

Mixed feelings on this one. I don't agree with the ban bc i like using GFire but I agree with the ban bc i hate when my opponent brings it.

In all seriousness, I hope this is the start of the slippery slope. From here its Kyu then Woger then maybe Zama but hopefully not. Let's fix SV OU one last time.
 
I’ve changed my mind about Gouging Fire last minute. The issue is that it requires more teambuilding resources than other sweepers like Dnite. The only consistent checks, Mola who is only on Balance, and Dondozo who’s exclusive to Stall or that one Balance team.

Outside of those two, G-Fire is always able to break through a check through coverage options or defensive Teras. It honestly doesn’t even need Tera Dragon cause 80% of the time, you’re not gonna run into Stall, so instead you run the sets that beat everything else like Tera Fairy Blast + SE, Morning Sun 2-Atks, Dtail, etc.

Dnite needs to preserve Multiscale and Roaring Moon is physically frail, but Gouging Fire is harder to rkill due to having Garganacl levels of bulk, even when taking 25% from rocks. You pretty much need Lando + Zama + Booster Moth/Val or Dnite/Fairy Bolt which is a ton of resources to check one threat, and now you have less time to prep for the rest of the meta, like the 2 other physical behemoths its paired with.

So yeah, thank you for convincing me to get it out of the tier.

Now let’s deal with Kyurem’s cheap ass.

btw if anyone’s not convinced its not broken, look at this replay.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2196502476-x0pdh8i6w9l7q8lfgdgl4edbg567sjbpw

keep in mind my opponent has an iron crown and spd tera fairy garg
 
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BolTingBlazie said:
Well now that Gouging Fire is gone, what exactly improves here? For one, unfortunately Kyurem definitely improves having more opportunities to set up and more sub protect stuff being thrown around, and is very likely to be even more problematic. What else exactly gets better?
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I am not sure how Kyurem benefits from Gouge being gone considering that they both mess each other up depending on who is on the field first and depending on which set.

Winners in general are grass types like Meow and Rilla and some fire types like Ace. They were always FORCED to click u-turn otherwise Gouge could just come in, set-up and blow your would-be answer up with a coverage move or a tera and proceed to wreck the rest of your team to the point of no return. Same thing with Iron Crown btw. And the Gouge user could 110% exploit that knowledge. In comparision Moon is frailer and fears many more things. For example even though Moon has the MU advantage to Iron Crown, it still has to fear FB or has to tera (give up some of its resources to set up). This can be exploited too if you have Bolt or Gambit in the back. No such thing with Gouge I am afraid.

There are also a bunch of physical mons like Weavile and Ogerpon rejoicing. Gambit also lost a check.

Cinderace is especially needed here, since the mon is one of the few reliable hazard removers in this hard to remove hazard-infested meta(I hate Samurott-H btw. Wish I could make a case for this non-interactive garbage to get banned but alas I am the only one who hates this mon). Lando also benefits from it since he already has hands full trying to check Zama and Moon so easing his burden against HO teams is appreciated.

In general Gouge was just nonesense. It could comfortably live an EQ from Dragonite into an extreme speed combo and a Dragon Darts from boots Pult before even teraing. The range of mons it could setup on was HUGE and the reward way, way too much and that is not even accounting how flexible it can be. Gouging Fire getting Gouging Fired. Sad to see one less option for sun to break fat but it is for the greater good and sun still has plenty of options.
 
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JackRG said:
Finally! Now I don’t have to run tickle
On mola!
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I would respond with "wait, that was a thing?" never mind the fact that I caught one madlad yesterday running AV Mola if that says anything - but now it's made me think "what dumb niche shit has come to the tier to counter other dumb shit before it was banned." As in:

- This
- Shelmet usage in SS OU when Urshifu-Dark was in the tier
- Icium Z Blissey when Naganadel was in USUM OU's infancy

...Anything else I'm missing?
 
6ft Torbjorn said:
I would respond with "wait, that was a thing?" never mind the fact that I caught one madlad yesterday running AV Mola if that says anything - but now it's made me think "what dumb niche shit has come to the tier to counter other dumb shit before it was banned." As in:

- This
- Shelmet usage in SS OU when Urshifu-Dark was in the tier
- Icium Z Blissey when Naganadel was in USUM OU's infancy

...Anything else I'm missing?
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oh, there's been plenty of it in this tier alone:
  • dachsbun and houndoom during the scramble to find a check for chi-yu (didn't work)
  • both paldean tauros forms against chien-pao (almost worked)
  • bronzong as a bloodmoon answer (didn't work)
  • cryogonal as anti-gliscor tech back in dlc1 before the facade set got popular (worked, but you needed tera steel or poison to avoid toxic and it never really caught on)
  • sticky barb clefable against roaring moon and sneasler (worked, turned out to be useful against a bunch of other stuff, and is now an actual thing)
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
oh, there's been plenty of it in this tier alone:
  • dachsbun and houndoom during the scramble to find a check for chi-yu
  • both paldean tauros forms against chien-pao
  • bronzong as a bloodmoon answer that wasn't even really an answer
  • cryogonal as anti-gliscor tech back in dlc1 before the facade set got popular
  • here's where i would mention sticky barb clefable against roaring moon and sneasler, but that turned out to be useful for other stuff too
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Dachsbun vs Chi-Yu sounds hysterical. I wish that thing was more viable.

I guess this is the point where I mention Avalugg being pioneered for Zygarde back in USUM. Same for Jellicent being used as a Mosa (soft?) counter.
 
6ft Torbjorn said:
Dachsbun vs Chi-Yu sounds hysterical. I wish that thing was more viable.

I guess this is the point where I mention Avalugg being pioneered for Zygarde back in USUM. Same for Jellicent being used as a Mosa (soft?) counter.
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to be fair, avalugg was also really good into lando-t, gliscor, and many flavors of garchomp, and those guys were all over the place in gen 7 (especially lando). the odds that you'd run into one of them on ladder in any given match were high enough that putting avalugg on stall was an actual non-meme option
 
Great news that we can finally say goodbye to Gouging Douche. Now we just have to get rid of the other BE/DD douche. I know, not everyone is on the same page as me there. For now, let's just celebrate the ban of a burn immune, accelerated setup sweeper with title legend levels of bulk.

Vlarcheops said:
Damn, was :Gouging fire: that disgustingly overpowered!?
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Yes. At least in a Tera meta.

Rekka's Backend said:
Sorry, I have nothing to add about the rest of the post but what was the team you used for this? it sounds mighty interesting to me.
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You could run it on pretty much any Grassy Terrain team that can fit Bolt. But to answer your question, the team I spent the most with on this account was an older one that looked something like this:

Rillaboom @ Assault Vest
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 204 HP / 252 Atk / 52 Def
Brave Nature
- U-turn
- Grassy Glide
- Low Kick
- High Horsepower

Raging Bolt @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Def / 220 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 20 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Body Press
- Thunderclap
- Dragon Pulse

Glimmora @ Focus Sash
Ability: Toxic Debris
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Mortal Spin
- Earth Power
- Power Gem
- Stealth Rock

Roaring Moon @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Acrobatics

Deoxys-Speed @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Naive Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam
- Knock Off
- Superpower

Cinderace @ Choice Band
Ability: Libero
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Pyro Ball
- U-turn
- Court Change

But now, I would like change some things around. Most notably, I would probably either make the RM a different Tera ( like Fairy, Steel, or even Fire) or replace it with something else. It was ok on this team with EQ and Tera Flying because it wasn't Terrain Extender Rilla, but I still feel like the synergy is still a bit lacking.

I remember at this time I was testing various concepts like D-speed, different forms of dealing with hazards without boots, and different Moon sets.
 
658Greninja said:
I’ve changed my mind about Gouging Fire last minute. The issue is that it requires more teambuilding resources than other sweepers like Dnite. The only consistent checks, Mola who is only on Balance, and Dondozo who’s exclusive to Stall or that one Balance team.

Outside of those two, G-Fire is always able to break through a check through coverage options or defensive Teras. It honestly doesn’t even need Tera Dragon cause 80% of the time, you’re not gonna run into Stall, so instead you run the sets that beat everything else like Tera Fairy Blast + SE, Morning Sun 2-Atks, Dtail, etc.

Dnite needs to preserve Multiscale and Roaring Moon is physically frail, but Gouging Fire is harder to rkill due to having Garganacl levels of bulk, even when taking 25% from rocks. You pretty much need Lando + Zama + Booster Moth/Val or Dnite/Fairy Bolt which is a ton of resources to check one threat, and now you have less time to prep for the rest of the meta, like the 2 other physical behemoths its paired with.

So yeah, thank you for convincing me to get it out of the tier.

Now let’s deal with Kyurem’s cheap ass.

btw if anyone’s not convinced its not broken, look at this replay.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2196502476-x0pdh8i6w9l7q8lfgdgl4edbg567sjbpw

keep in mind my opponent has an iron crown and spd tera fairy garg
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Wholeheartedly agreed. I would argue that even Mola is not a check since Tera Dragon Outrage could easily brute-force it.

+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Dragon Gouging Fire Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 426-502 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'm glad the triceratops from hell is out of the tier.

And I agree about Kyurem. This mon is just plain uncompetitive. SubTect just farms for a freeze against would-be checks like Tera Fairy Garg and Tera'd AV Glowking. And that's not counting the multitude of other sets making it so difficult to predict on preview.
 
delightfully pleased that Gouging is gone. That thing was a monster to deal with and not having to contend with Booster Def or DDtail is amazing. Once Kyu goes, it feels like the Tier might be in a spot where can readily say "now we can wait and see where the real nuance bullshit comes from" without the serial killers with axes running around.

Rip my Sun team for having free wins though... :psycry:
 
Rekka's Backend said:
delightfully pleased that Gouging is gone. That thing was a monster to deal with and not having to contend with Booster Def or DDtail is amazing. Once Kyu goes, it feels like the Tier might be in a spot where can readily say "now we can wait and see where the real nuance bullshit comes from" without the serial killers with axes running around.

Rip my Sun team for having free wins though... :psycry:
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just use Srn sun smh my head. Ok but fr tho, rip sun as an archetype (for now, weather always finds a way into a metagame)
 
RS25802580 said:
And I agree about Kyurem. This mon is just plain uncompetitive. SubTect just farms for a freeze against would-be checks like Tera Fairy Garg and Tera'd AV Glowking. And that's not counting the multitude of other sets making it so difficult to predict on preview.
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Lmfao the most annoying part is when they try to apologize for hax, like literally no you aren’t, thats why you are using the set lol
 
6ft Torbjorn said:
I would respond with "wait, that was a thing?" never mind the fact that I caught one madlad yesterday running AV Mola if that says anything - but now it's made me think "what dumb niche shit has come to the tier to counter other dumb shit before it was banned." As in:

- This
- Shelmet usage in SS OU when Urshifu-Dark was in the tier
- Icium Z Blissey when Naganadel was in USUM OU's infancy

...Anything else I'm missing?
Click to expand...
During the Arena Trap times in ORAS, I successfully used Skill Swap Chansey + Pursuit Skarmory to punish Dugtrio.
 
Yeah I am not sure why ppl think sun is dead with Gouge gone when this mon wasnt even close to neccessary. Walking Wake is much more of a "must" for sun. We have got plenty of choices for wall breaking and speed control. If anything, Gouge just hindered the development of sun to be more explorative since we all just wanted to lazily click the red button and be done with it. It was a big sun enemy at the same time too.

Choice Specs WW with SpAtk boost decimates any fat team. Modest tera water Hydro Steam in the sun has a good chance to 1HKO standard Slowking builds, 1HKOs Dragapult, 2HKOs Dragonite with multi, 2HKOs Blissey, 2HKOs Prim. Absolute monster.

We have got other options too. Specs Moth tera fire actually also has insane nuclear power, in fact even more then Walking Wake.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire Iron Moth Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu in Sun: 460-542 (89.4 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire Iron Moth Overheat vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Sun: 432-510 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Only Heatran can switch into this. Everything else gets incinerated. Speaking of Heatran, it can also bully fat and free up WW so it can run speed boost for offense with Magma Storm+taunt. I also like Magma+Overheat eject to do massive damage while not missing as much.

I have built a couple of specs Iron Moth team and I really liked this one https://pokepast.es/18783040f5a1c97b
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2183608382-lzcgnw0ftitd51f4thn62o5kphpylcfpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2183590281-yf3e3fwrrdlglqipeiw3melu7escv6wpw?p2
Just a small demostration of the team

We have also got Raging Bolt. LO Bolt under sun hits harder then normal specs while also having the ability to switch moves. Clod gets 2HKO` by weather ball so only Blissey and AV Ttar can safely come in. It also pairs really nicely with Wake since it takes advantage of tera water Gargs and Glis that are inclined to change their type just to not get oneshot. Also serves as a speed control. AV and balloon also help against offense.

On the physical side, we have got Moon(CB attack boosting Outrage is nuclear and speed boosting CB still hits hard while checking offense), slither wing with various options, Tusk(can run just about anything from utility like HDB to power like LO or even CB). Also more sun teams should run Cinderace. I LOVE this mon on sun. Choice-Scarf sun boosted Pyros nuke offense while CB destroys these Gliscors that think they can come in safely. Not AS strong as Gouge in sun but a better speed tier then it and the ability to remove hazards in a pinch(Yes, I run choiced court change), traits all valuable for sun.

Heck there are still many more options to explore. I have recently taken a liking to Rotom-Heat who is a safe Tusk(without rock attacks)switch, Molt Switch, slowking crippler and Primarina scare while also serving as a bolt lure with fairy blast. Comfey can also serve as both a wall breaker and a sweeper thanks to growth giving her an insane boost under sun and stored power being nuclear. There is probably more mons or sets that I am forgetting that are viable but point is, sun builders have to work a little harder now that they cant do braindead stuff like Gouge clicking the red button and mons dropping left and right. And I am not just talking about the CB set either.
 
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gouging fire ban woohoo!!




okay now how can i make this about kyurem ?

well in all honesty i didn’t really care for gouging fire, it felt like a matchup mon to me were there’d be at least ONE variation that could easily 6-0 given the right circumstance, i think it being banned there serves as a net positive for the tier and shows that yes we as a community can actually take action and not let problems mutate over time and become much worse than they originally were
personally against less offensive teams i’d use sinistcha but even that doesn’t work super well if gouge had earthquake or something of the sort, and the mindless button clicking of tera fire sun raging fury was fun when i needed to get out of low ladder but not much else to say about it

now..in my possible hot-take, we should just quickban kyurem and let the meta develop a bit before we TRULY look at our final suspect options(probably waterpon or darkrai, maybe even roaring moon if we’re lucky)
in total, what DO we lose by quickbanning kyurem?

sub protect sets that do nothing but pray for unlucky freezes or pressure stall feel very uncompetitive, and not even just from a “stall bad” perspective it’s literally just completely unwinnable if you don’t have a complete counter to it

iron crown(the best kyurem check in my opinion) doesn’t get horribly worse and specs sets have popped up more and more(especially on bulky offense teams that love a good 100 bp stab steel move)
glowking is still the primary special wall
and even other special walls like clod, ting-lu, etc that can’t handle kyurems perfect coverage well actually have more use now
stall players dont have to worry about their dozo getting 2HKO’d by a surprise freeze dry never melt ice kyurem that set dragon dance up 1 turn ago

i definitely might get flamed for this but kyurems been such an uncompetitive mon to me for almost a year soon(time really flies) and once players no longer have to worry about if they’re gonna get sub-protect stalled, dd swept or simply just specs draco ice beam swept, i think we’ll have a much healthier and honestly funner metagame as a result
 
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