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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
No and we are about to enter Kyurem hell for the second generation in a row and have the exact same conversation about soft checks and stall being reasonable answers to it or not. Spoiler alert they will not be.
Stall hasn't been remotely good for this entire generation but somehow it's a reasonable answer to kyurem? That's almost as much cope as saying that Kingambit is fair and balanced. (not directed at you btw)
That isn’t even true. As stated before, Stall sees success in high ladder and tournament play. Stall teams have multiple directions they can go to cover traditionally bad matchups.
You can switch up the traditional Bliss/Dozo/Clod structures with options like Amoonguss, Alomomola, Wo-Chien, Moltres, Muk, Hydrapple, Toxapex, etc. You could even run Defoggers like G-Weez who has an unblockable Defog, and Talonflame who beats Ghold and most rockers while being annoying as shit with Wisp + Flame Body.
Here’s a few successful Stall teams that switch up the formula
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/op-g-weezing-defog-stall-peaked-25-1925.3742379/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/better-than-hydrapple-stall-muk-stall.3736865/
As for Kyurem, I’m working on a write-up regarding it. So I’ll address Kyurem soon.
Noteworthy Usage Rises for the Month of April:
(#12, 14.65% -> #4, 20.46%)
Zamazenta's skyrocketed to an insane usage rate, getting an unimaginable K/D in SPL, and becoming the most versatile physically defensive check in the whole metagame. Roar has seen great usage in making Zamazenta win any setup war, not to mention the recent use of Mirror Herb to copy boosts from a QDing Volcarona (you will not be missed), or a DD from the likes of Dragonite, Roaring Moon or Gouging Fire. Incredibly deserved, and a great addition to pretty much any offensive team.
(#15, 13.65% -> #10, 15.50%)
Speaking of offense, Glimmora's surged back up as well. Glimm's always been a bit awkward in that it's always been seen as a dedicated hazard lead, forcing it on specific types of offenses that wanted it as a lead. However recently, we've seen it run on webs teams with the combination of Meteor Beam + Power Herb, in addition to it's incredible offensive coverage Glimmora is able to sweep many teams on it's own.
(#18, 11.32% -> #12, 15.04%)
People kinda realised that fairy/water hits a good majority of the metagame super effectively. In a gen where Dragon and Darks reign supreme, Primarina's recently exploded onto the scene with a wide majority of sets, up to a point where multiple players think it's lowkey broken.
(#23, 8.45% -> #17, 12.74%)
Many people began with skepticism with Darkrai, NP + 3 attacks seemed kinda meh, due to the amount of teams with great speed control options. However, people soon realised that Darkrai doesn't even really need setup, 4 attack sets started gaining popularity, with either HDB or Expert Belt it's able to hit most of the metagame for super effective damage with the coverage of Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, Sludge Bomb and Focus Blast. It's even able to run multiple tech options at the expense of one coverage move, Will-o-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Knock Off are all great options.
(#39, 5.18% -> #24, 8.45%)
Passive Lead Deo is dead and offensive Lead Deo is back. Screens are bad, LO lead sets have seen great use with the combination of Psycho Boost + Superpower hitting most of the meta for great damage, all while being able to setup rocks or spikes and denying opponent's hazards with Taunt. We've also seen more offensive sets with Tera Dark Knock Off see usage, TLDR don't run passive Deos :)
(#12, 14.65% -> #4, 20.46%) Zamazenta's skyrocketed to an insane usage rate, getting an unimaginable K/D in SPL, and becoming the most versatile physically defensive check in the whole metagame. Roar has seen great usage in making Zamazenta win any setup war, not to mention the recent use of Mirror Herb to copy boosts from a QDing Volcarona (you will not be missed), or a DD from the likes of Dragonite, Roaring Moon or Gouging Fire. Incredibly deserved, and a great addition to pretty much any offensive team.
(#15, 13.65% -> #10, 15.50%)Speaking of offense, Glimmora's surged back up as well. Glimm's always been a bit awkward in that it's always been seen as a dedicated hazard lead, forcing it on specific types of offenses that wanted it as a lead. However recently, we've seen it run on webs teams with the combination of Meteor Beam + Power Herb, in addition to it's incredible offensive coverage Glimmora is able to sweep many teams on it's own.
(#18, 11.32% -> #12, 15.04%)People kinda realised that fairy/water hits a good majority of the metagame super effectively. In a gen where Dragon and Darks reign supreme, Primarina's recently exploded onto the scene with a wide majority of sets, up to a point where multiple players think it's lowkey broken.
(#23, 8.45% -> #17, 12.74%)Many people began with skepticism with Darkrai, NP + 3 attacks seemed kinda meh, due to the amount of teams with great speed control options. However, people soon realised that Darkrai doesn't even really need setup, 4 attack sets started gaining popularity, with either HDB or Expert Belt it's able to hit most of the metagame for super effective damage with the coverage of Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, Sludge Bomb and Focus Blast. It's even able to run multiple tech options at the expense of one coverage move, Will-o-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Knock Off are all great options.
(#39, 5.18% -> #24, 8.45%)Passive Lead Deo is dead and offensive Lead Deo is back. Screens are bad, LO lead sets have seen great use with the combination of Psycho Boost + Superpower hitting most of the meta for great damage, all while being able to setup rocks or spikes and denying opponent's hazards with Taunt. We've also seen more offensive sets with Tera Dark Knock Off see usage, TLDR don't run passive Deos :)
Usage stats just dropped and while there were no tier changes here are some of the significant differences since last month. Got sniped while writing this LOL oh well.
14.65 (#12) -> 20.46 (#4!) +40%
18.34 (#7) -> 15.96 (#9) -13%
13.66 (#15) -> 15.50 (#10) +13%
11.32 (#18) -> 15.04 (#12) +33%
16.99 (#9) -> 14.83 (#14) -13%
8.45 (#23) -> 12.74 (#17) +50%
14.15 (#13) -> 11.47 (#18) -19%
11.62 (#17) -> 10.35 (#20) -11%
5.18 (#39) -> 8.45 +63%
6.40 (#29) -> 7.33 (#28) +15%
5.28 (#38) -> 6.47 (#33) +23%
3.96 (#45) -> 5.54 (#36) +40%
5.97 (#32) -> 4.63 (#41) -23%
5.46 (#36) -> 4.17 (#43) -23%
3.02 (#47) -> 4.04 (#44) +34%
2.04 (#58) -> 3.91 (#45) +92%
2.11 (#55) -> 3.30 (#46) +56%
4.79 (#43) -> 2.68 (#48) -44%
Lower usage pokemon really switched up a lot this month with Moltres Skeledirge and Ogerpon having notable rises while Sun + Serperior dropped a lot. Enamorus also went up quite a bit, wonder if it's that triple dark sample team having an effect
Also worth noting that since we have slowed down tier shifts we are not on the same tier scale as last month. If we were, both Ribombee and Serperior would be dropping to UU. Something to monitor for the next main shifts.
14.65 (#12) -> 20.46 (#4!) +40% 18.34 (#7) -> 15.96 (#9) -13% 13.66 (#15) -> 15.50 (#10) +13% 11.32 (#18) -> 15.04 (#12) +33% 16.99 (#9) -> 14.83 (#14) -13% 8.45 (#23) -> 12.74 (#17) +50% 14.15 (#13) -> 11.47 (#18) -19% 11.62 (#17) -> 10.35 (#20) -11% 5.18 (#39) -> 8.45 +63% 6.40 (#29) -> 7.33 (#28) +15% 5.28 (#38) -> 6.47 (#33) +23% 3.96 (#45) -> 5.54 (#36) +40% 5.97 (#32) -> 4.63 (#41) -23% 5.46 (#36) -> 4.17 (#43) -23% 3.02 (#47) -> 4.04 (#44) +34% 2.04 (#58) -> 3.91 (#45) +92% 2.11 (#55) -> 3.30 (#46) +56% 4.79 (#43) -> 2.68 (#48) -44%Lower usage pokemon really switched up a lot this month with Moltres Skeledirge and Ogerpon having notable rises while Sun + Serperior dropped a lot. Enamorus also went up quite a bit, wonder if it's that triple dark sample team having an effect
Also worth noting that since we have slowed down tier shifts we are not on the same tier scale as last month. If we were, both Ribombee and Serperior would be dropping to UU. Something to monitor for the next main shifts.
I think the main Obstacle Hands has is that its high stats are a bit betrayed by the low BP of most of its move options. Outside of CC and EQ as coverage, most of its moves struggle to reach 80 BP without a drawback, including its theoretically valuable Electric STAB. This results in its output being very dependent on some kind of boost or chip to be in Wallbreaking/Progress-making range. For example, on equal items its TP is weaker than Greninja, despite a sizeable 37 Point gap in their base offenses, with pre-boosted Greninja not being considered a very threatening level.If it weren’t for, could
have been a legit OU mon? It threatens all the other Ground Types with Ice Punch and its Fighting STAB of choice and its physical stats are simply monstrous. Its HP is so massive its Special Defense isn’t even that horrid. Not surviving any Moonblasts, but you get the gist.
252 Atk Iron Hands Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 130-154 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 153-181 (44.8 - 53%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
Where this becomes an issue is that Hands is a bulky Mon that does best at trading, sponging a couple hits to ensure it goes down with 1-2 mons on the opponent's team, and that's not a role that provides consistent results in the current Meta with Offense and Balance doing so well and relying more on pressure than hard-roles that struggle after losing a key member. The lack of ability doesn't help much since the Tanky Beatstick style heavily favors going in and out and thus losing Booster Energy over a more consistent item, and technically theorymon but Hands REALLY misses Electric Terrain since on top of QD, it'd further boost its lackluster Electric STAB options (or hell, the other 2-non-grassy Terrains would be nice for things like Burn Protection and SpD based Seed usage).
For a comparison, Melmetal had what looks like a similar playstyle in Gen 8, bolstered by higher BP attacks (TP after Iron Fist and stuff like DiB), and the bulkier cores of that Gen meant that offensive mons like Weavile needed key players removed to go to work more easily. Additionally, Melmetal's higher damage and comparable Bulk, plus arguably better typing (Hands definitely doesn't like a Fairy Weakness and Dragon neutrality in the face of stuff like Valiant and Raging Bolt) meant it was easier for Melmetal to play proactively and FORCE trades where the opponent was picking the least-bad option, while Hands is more an Emergency Check that deals with stuff you might need it to. The difference I want to highlight there is that Melmetal is a proactive trader that breaks an important target, where Iron Hands is more reactive by minimizing the hole punch in you.
And this is all without the Great Tusk issue, which yes I do think is another factor both as a check and as competition.
Nah its literally just Tusk lol
Like, do you know how bulky and strong it is with its good coverage, recover in Drain Punch, and more?
Ice Punching Lando even at -1 does this:
-1 252+ Atk Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Landorus-Therian: 204-240 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This isn't happening with Tusk. Its taking 30 before lefties and getting a Knock, Spin or just general damage.
We don't gotta lie and pretend Tusk is not a huge stat gatekeeper for Physical Attackers, far more than Lando T even.
Like, do you know how bulky and strong it is with its good coverage, recover in Drain Punch, and more?
Ice Punching Lando even at -1 does this:
-1 252+ Atk Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Landorus-Therian: 204-240 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This isn't happening with Tusk. Its taking 30 before lefties and getting a Knock, Spin or just general damage.
We don't gotta lie and pretend Tusk is not a huge stat gatekeeper for Physical Attackers, far more than Lando T even.
A. Good players can make anything work in best of 1, tournament success is actually impressive tho so fairplay
B. Stall still ain't a good answer to kyurem
Just a dip but not a trend right?
how can i access the usage stats? i cant find itUsage stats just dropped and while there were no tier changes here are some of the significant differences since last month. Got sniped while writing this LOL oh well.
Lower usage pokemon really switched up a lot this month with Moltres Skeledirge and Ogerpon having notable rises while Sun + Serperior dropped a lot. Enamorus also went up quite a bit, wonder if it's that triple dark sample team having an effect
Also worth noting that since we have slowed down tier shifts we are not on the same tier scale as last month. If we were, both Ribombee and Serperior would be dropping to UU. Something to monitor for the next main shifts.
Post #48 of the April Usage Tier Update thread.
Out of curiosity... Can someone explain to me how Volcarona got banned but zamazenta and Darkrai being allowed in the tier is healthy? Get up an iron defense and zamazenta can sweep just about anything because of its insane speed stat, which means you pretty much have to wisp it, and almost all of the best will-o users in the tier just get smacked besides draga pult and skeledirge, and pult is realistically too frail so it just gets smacked by a crunch anyway, and Darkrai can shut down both pult and skeledirge pretty well with it's max 381 speed, assuming they're not running scarf. These two alone seem very unhealthy for the meta, and especially so when put together
Darkrai effectively has no ability ever since Sleep in general got banned. And due to how volatile OU is, and its mono-Dark typing doesn't give it many opportunities to switch in, Darkrai can have problems setting up, let alone do what it needs to do. And as a special-based dark type, it's missing all those "gimmicky" moves dark types are known for for such as Sucker Punch, Knock Off, and whatnot. It's a strong mon that hits hard, but that's all it really is in this current meta.
For Zamazenta, we already had a suspect for it way back in June of last year and people deemed it not broken.
The argument for Zama is that ID+BD is a linear gameplan that can be mitigated by a Ghost or a Status Spreader, even Roar/Whirlwind can work albeit not for last mon Zama. It doesn't make it any less obtuse and frustrating to deal with, however. If only we had a Poison/Flying type with access to Defog, Roost, Haze, and even a strong STAB move in Brave Bird. Someone who could really go up to Bat for us.
Zama is definitely a mon to keep a close eye on, because the linearity of that gameplan is reflected in its counters, like you said. I don't think its too much yet, either in the builder or in battle, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it leveraged more in coming tournments. Darkrai too, but it still has predication-reliance and team compoistions to deal with that can sometimes have it thud into teams rather than break.
I can't find a thread named this, i wonder what's going on why I can't find it
It's in the "Smogon Metagames" section of the forum.
Can find the stats here: https://www.smogon.com/stats/2024-04/gen9ou-1695.txt
WAIT I SEE WHAT HAPPENED, they didn't a full post but instead but the usage state for may in Apirl for some reason. Why did they put it there?
Wait so after looking into it, they are doing a three-month shift apparently. Why are they doing this when typically tier changes happen every month? Why they sudden change?
zama should be re suspected soon. a lot has changed in a year. its recent ladder usage and tournament winrate / kd are insane, and the sheer versatility in its movepool (cc, id, bp, crunch, heavy slam, ice fang, rest, roar, stone edge) make it able to pick and choose its own counters. its just way too strong and bulky for how fast it is. and it snowballs so fucking quickly. ppl will say its “necessary” to check physical threats; i say if the sv ou ecosystem is dependent on an ubers level cover legendary to not fall apart, then maybe we need to take a step back and see if thats really healthy
tldr zamazenta does not “handle the cheap mons”, it IS the cheap mon. and it has far overstayed its welcome in this tier
im not huge on zama rn as being broken but i do think there's been enough uproar where it's worth a suspect soon for sure
Why aren't the tier changes being implemented every month anymore?Usage stats just dropped and while there were no tier changes here are some of the significant differences since last month. Got sniped while writing this LOL oh well.
Lower usage pokemon really switched up a lot this month with Moltres Skeledirge and Ogerpon having notable rises while Sun + Serperior dropped a lot. Enamorus also went up quite a bit, wonder if it's that triple dark sample team having an effect
Also worth noting that since we have slowed down tier shifts we are not on the same tier scale as last month. If we were, both Ribombee and Serperior would be dropping to UU. Something to monitor for the next main shifts.
Before I say was I was going to, I gotta take a little bit of credit for the rise of Tera Dark D-speed. I've been pushing it since way before it fell to UU usage. I'm glad the community finally caught on.
The rise in Glimm and Zama also makes a lot of sense since they are so good at matchups. Glimm is not the biggest 1 V 1 mon, but it makes team matchups against a lot of things much better. Zamazenta is really important as a physical backbone that isn't passive or defensive. Checking physical threats is arguably more important in this meta due to the sheer quantity of them.
Anyways, the original point of my post is that I have tried Psychic Seed Zamazenta with Roar. It's quite good at preventing opposing sweepers and stopping most BE speed mons. Particularly, worrying about opposing sweeps isn't quite as much of an issue on the special side since the Volc ban. So I primarily worry about special attackers from a wall breaking perspective on the builder. This is a bit of an oversimplification, but I have found this mindset to be mostly successful so far. Even something like Kyurem, that can surprise you with a DD, would then be physical and also hit super effectively by Body Press anyways.
What I am still figuring out is how I want to built PT teams. The current 6 with Zama in that last slot is probably better than I had built it before with any other combo. However, I am still not sure if it is the right 6. I do think that regardless of my decision with this team, Psychic Seed Zama is really good and could be put on teams fairly easily. I noticed right away how much better it was than my Psychic Seed Gouging Fire experiment. It also improves my Roaring Moon matchup quite a bit despite needing to be wary of Tera Flying Acrobatics.
Do I think Zama is OP? No. Body Press is a fairly easy thing to game plan since you need to account for Fighting moves anyways. It's a bit like having to prep for Gambit's Sucker Punch, although I wouldn't say Zama is on the level of Gambit. Zama is also easier to deal with once forced out the first time. Most teams that aren't purely offensive have a lot of investment in physical defense. We have a whole boosted tier that can outrun it, Meanwhile, Pult and D-speed outrun it unboosted and give it some problems. Zama hates getting status effects like Poison or Burn. There is just a lot of counterplay to it.
The rise in Glimm and Zama also makes a lot of sense since they are so good at matchups. Glimm is not the biggest 1 V 1 mon, but it makes team matchups against a lot of things much better. Zamazenta is really important as a physical backbone that isn't passive or defensive. Checking physical threats is arguably more important in this meta due to the sheer quantity of them.
Anyways, the original point of my post is that I have tried Psychic Seed Zamazenta with Roar. It's quite good at preventing opposing sweepers and stopping most BE speed mons. Particularly, worrying about opposing sweeps isn't quite as much of an issue on the special side since the Volc ban. So I primarily worry about special attackers from a wall breaking perspective on the builder. This is a bit of an oversimplification, but I have found this mindset to be mostly successful so far. Even something like Kyurem, that can surprise you with a DD, would then be physical and also hit super effectively by Body Press anyways.
What I am still figuring out is how I want to built PT teams. The current 6 with Zama in that last slot is probably better than I had built it before with any other combo. However, I am still not sure if it is the right 6. I do think that regardless of my decision with this team, Psychic Seed Zama is really good and could be put on teams fairly easily. I noticed right away how much better it was than my Psychic Seed Gouging Fire experiment. It also improves my Roaring Moon matchup quite a bit despite needing to be wary of Tera Flying Acrobatics.
Do I think Zama is OP? No. Body Press is a fairly easy thing to game plan since you need to account for Fighting moves anyways. It's a bit like having to prep for Gambit's Sucker Punch, although I wouldn't say Zama is on the level of Gambit. Zama is also easier to deal with once forced out the first time. Most teams that aren't purely offensive have a lot of investment in physical defense. We have a whole boosted tier that can outrun it, Meanwhile, Pult and D-speed outrun it unboosted and give it some problems. Zama hates getting status effects like Poison or Burn. There is just a lot of counterplay to it.
If that's how you feel, be prepared for Ogerpon-Wellspring, Kingambit, and Roaring Moon to all be banned with Zamazenta's departure from the tier along with any other destabilizations these bans wil cause.
Personally, I do not believe Zamazenta is broken although I do believe it checks a helluva lot more powerful mons than Great Tusk does and is the glue holding the meta together (Yes, Zama is a better mon than Great Tusk).
I always thought Zama was used a lot less than it should be for how good it is, and it's only now when that has been reflected through its high usage landing it as the 4th most used mon.
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