Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[crisiscloud]

Hatterene has Magic Bounce and Nuzzle utility along with CM/Stored Power, and I saw it on Balance decently enough when I played if I remember correctly.
As for Gambit, it’s basically mandatory on any non-stall team. And considering it has an entry in the Stall Bible, I’d assume it’s been used on stall before too.

 

[RS25802580]

Is Kingambit a key component of Balance teams? I'm not complaining about it or anything if that's how it is, because you've already spelt out how much role compression it has. I'd simply like to make teams without it for personal reasons, but I'm just barely cstching up to this current meta, let alone balance.

Does Hatterene fit into balance in any way?

It's possible to make a good balance team without Gambit. You'll want another mon to check the likes of Pult, Ghold, and Glowking Future Sight spam and Ting Lu is a solid option to fill this role. Lu brings in hazard stack, which frees up partners like Gliscor to go more offensive (SD + knock sets).


Hatterene is a solid mon, it can do well on balance thanks to Magic Bounce support matching up great against slow hazard stack and status spam. With calm mind and psyshock you get also get a potent tool againt stall. I haven't used it much since early gen but I do encounter balances on the ladder using Hatt.

 

[Bold School]

Is Kingambit a key component of Balance teams? I'm not complaining about it or anything if that's how it is, because you've already spelt out how much role compression it has. I'd simply like to make teams without it for personal reasons, but I'm just barely cstching up to this current meta, let alone balance.

Does Hatterene fit into balance in any way?

Aside from what others have said, you generally are going to need priority of some sort to ensure RKs. At least this is the case for teams that aren't stall or otherwise extremely defensive. Rillaboom and/or Raging Bolt can fill the niche of bulky priority user in Gambit's stead so long as you understand how the matchups change and structure your teams for this. Scizor is another possible option as a steel type with priority and a bit of bulk. You can use one or more of these on non-Gambit teams and potentially have success.

Another key for balance is pivots. You are going to want access to at least a couple. I'd say probably at least one of those should be a slow pivot. Slow pivots in particular are needed so you can ease prediction and get some of your mons in clean without a sac. For example, Glowking and Corv are commonly used for this.

Balance has more limited slots for offense, so you need to be very deliberate about your main attackers. You also need to be very careful what you do for the offensive and stall teams since they tend to have very different counters. One reason why Gambit is so good is that it has stallbreaking capabilities and priority. Without it, you need to fit all those roles on your team.

Speaking of stallbreaking, common anti-stall techs on balance tend to include Glowking Future Sight and using Gambit's ability to wallbreak. You can beat stall without one or both of those mons, but it tends to be more difficult if you don't build in another plan. You will probably need Knock Off, hazards, and a dedicated wallbreaker such as Kyurem or Hoopa-U. Mixed attackers such as Iron Valiant or D-speed can also be good against defensive cores since they can hit single purpose walls and also use Knock Off.

If you don't want to spam HBD, you can build in teams that aren't weak to hazards and/or that have multiple anti-hazard tech options on it. An example of a properly built hazard resistant team is at least one grounded poison, at least one steel type, and at least two ground immunities with at least one of those not being weak to Stealth Rocks. Rillaboom's passive recovery from GT can also be used to help mitigate hazard chip.

For a team with multiple anti-hazard options, you will want at least one spinner or defogger. Hatt or Cinderace can be used in conjunction with a spinner or defogger, but you need to be more careful about that on balance as opposed to offense because balance needs more longevity. It's not that they can't be used, though.

I play mostly balance and offensive teams. The top 5 mons I use tend to use as a crutch when teambuilding are probably Great Tusk, Kingambit, Glowking, Dragonite, and Rillaboom. Pokemon like Raging Bolt, Iron Valiant, Glimmora, Corvinight, Gliscor, and Cinderace are probably not far behind for me. Pokemon other people often use that I personally don't often use much for various reasons are Lando-T, Primarina, Dragapult, Zamazenta, Alomomola, Dondozo, and Ting-Lu. Hopefully you can get some ideas with all this.

 

[Alternator]

As someone who enjoys finding niches to non-OU mons, the Maus is not doing so hot rn. Not just the usage of Helmet Lando, but also the multitude of Tera Ghosts due to Ironpress Zama and Dnite’s popularity. For offensive hazard control, Cinderace, Treads, and Tusk are better options. Encore is nice, but I feel like Valiant or Wogre are better suited for that due to better typings/bulk.

Tera Dark Maushold. STAB Technician Bite with a Tidy Up boost tears through the ghosts, and one selling point of Maushold - and the reason I suggested it - is outspeeding Ogerpon, so your own Ogerpon isn't covering that need.

I wasn't recommending the mice for the hazard clear, but for revenge killing and cleaning. They're surprisingly good in that role with a bit of team support, thanks to the incredible power of Population Bomb.

 

[RS25802580]

Maushold outspeeds Ogerpon and can OHKO with Population Bomb (needs 8 hits, so ~92% chance), which forces the Ogerpon player to think carefully about going for the SD instead of attacking immediately, and also is a very reliable way to revenge kill - just make sure you have a backup plan that can beat Trailblaze sets, because Ivy Cudgel is an OHKO if Maushold took hazard damage.

As a bonus, fast Encore makes Kingambit cry, since you can Encore the sucker punch; just make sure you have a mon that can force Kingambit to click it in the first place. The only team support Maushold needs is Knock Off to remove Rocky Helmets, so while not splashable you don't have to entirely build around the mice.

Why yes, I am a fan of low BST mons that manage to find a niche in OU, why do you ask?

Maushold is a fun set, but wouldn’t be my go-to recommendation for a team weak to Waterpon. It can’t switch into Waterpon so the problem remains that the team is forced to take KOs every time the opposing Waterpon is positioned in. Maushold could work on HO, but balance can’t afford to rely only on retrospective revenge killing of threats since the integrity of the defensive core matters.

Regarding Waterpon checks, I would recommend Rillaboom and Pult. Both of these mons can switch into Waterpon and force it out or revenge kill, whereas Maushold can’t switch in.

Tera Dark Maushold. STAB Technician Bite with a Tidy Up boost tears through the ghosts, and one selling point of Maushold - and the reason I suggested it - is outspeeding Ogerpon, so your own Ogerpon isn't covering that need.

I wasn't recommending the mice for the hazard clear, but for revenge killing and cleaning. They're surprisingly good in that role with a bit of team support, thanks to the incredible power of Population Bomb.

In general, Maushold feels like a more HO-oriented niche pick that struggles to slot onto slower balance or semi stall builds. In this meta, there are so many threats pressuring balance that even the offensive mons on these builds need to offer some defensive utility. For example, the aforementioned Pult serves a similar role as a speed control and revenge killer, but can also switch into Waterpon, Zamazenta, or Iron Moth in a pinch. Rillaboom acts as a powerful breaker and priority user, but also serves as a bulky resist to water, grass, and ground type attacks from the likes of Waterpon, Tusk, Lando, and more. In contrast, Maushold’s frailty and mono-normal typing can’t help cover the defensive bases that balance needs. It could work effectively on HO as mentioned before, but this also happens to be the style of team that already does best against Waterpon.

 

[Finchinator]

Made this after some others brought up their template in the Trainer Aid discord the other day. Figured it would be cool to share so people could see roughly how I view the tier -- obviously this is very rough, unofficial, etc. Terms like "unhealthy" are far less formal and more "vibes" based than anything else.

Volcarona being lower right quadrant should be no surprise for those who read my posts in the suspect thread, but you can also see other "controversial" metagame presences like Kyurem, Darkrai, Deoxys-Speed in a similar quadrant (or Wellspring all the way at the end of "broken") -- I do not think we need to rush to any action after Volcarona suspect, especially with the tier still evolving, but I do think it's good to continually discuss things.

 

[Avira]

Finchinator, I'm surprised you've listed Primarina, Iron Moth (I know it has amazing offensive coverage and a great speed tier with Booster Energy, but does it really warrant being labelled as broken or unhealthy?), Glimmora, Garganacl, and Deoxys-Speed in the unhealthy and broken quadrant. Do you mind explaining what about them you find unhealthy or broken?

 

[Eeveeto]

Finchinator, I'm surprised you've listed Primarina, Iron Moth, Glimmora, Garganacl, and Deoxys-Speed in the unhealthy and broken quadrant. Do you mind explaining what about them you find unhealthy or broken?

Bro, Glimmora is the closest to the center Mon, this means we live in a Glimmora balanced Meta! Rise up, Glimmora enjoyers!

 

[Finchinator]

Finchinator, I'm surprised you've listed Primarina, Iron Moth (I know it has amazing offensive coverage and a great speed tier with Booster Energy, but does it really warrant being labelled as broken or unhealthy?), Glimmora, Garganacl, and Deoxys-Speed in the unhealthy and broken quadrant. Do you mind explaining what about them you find unhealthy or broken?

I mean they’re p close to the center aside from Primarina, which has been a concern for quite a few people just in terms of switching in. There is kind of a perfect storm in the metagame for Primarina rn between typing and offensive presence, but even then I wouldn’t ban it lol

Think things that are closer to the middle than not raising alarms for anyone is more overestimating the placement than anything else.

 

[Avira]

I mean they’re p close to the center aside from Primarina, which has been a concern for quite a few people just in terms of switching in. There is kind of a perfect storm in the metagame for Primarina rn between typing and offensive presence, but even then I wouldn’t ban it lol

Think things that are closer to the middle than not raising alarms for anyone is more overestimating the placement than anything else.

Okay, fair enough. Maybe I overreacted to seeing some of those mons in Quadrant 4.

 

[BobbyHill]

Made this after some others brought up their template in the Trainer Aid discord the other day. Figured it would be cool to share so people could see roughly how I view the tier -- obviously this is very rough, unofficial, etc. Terms like "unhealthy" are far less formal and more "vibes" based than anything else.

Volcarona being lower right quadrant should be no surprise for those who read my posts in the suspect thread, but you can also see other "controversial" metagame presences like Kyurem, Darkrai, Deoxys-Speed in a similar quadrant (or Wellspring all the way at the end of "broken") -- I do not think we need to rush to any action after Volcarona suspect, especially with the tier still evolving, but I do think it's good to continually discuss things.

Curious as why you view moon as so healthy? It almost always requires trade+tera to take it down. Even if it’s not bannable , I’m surprised it’s that high up.

 

[Finchinator]

Curious as why you view moon as so healthy? It almost always requires trade+tera to take it down. Even if it’s not bannable , I’m surprised it’s that high up.

Really think Moon has settled down nicely with the abundance of priority and stuff like Sticky Barb Clef, Avalanche Dondozo, etc. -- it is still comfortably on the broken side and, as I alluded in my post, "health" is more arbitrary and vibes based, so yea

 

[Heatranator]

Made this after some others brought up their template in the Trainer Aid discord the other day. Figured it would be cool to share so people could see roughly how I view the tier -- obviously this is very rough, unofficial, etc. Terms like "unhealthy" are far less formal and more "vibes" based than anything else.

Volcarona being lower right quadrant should be no surprise for those who read my posts in the suspect thread, but you can also see other "controversial" metagame presences like Kyurem, Darkrai, Deoxys-Speed in a similar quadrant (or Wellspring all the way at the end of "broken") -- I do not think we need to rush to any action after Volcarona suspect, especially with the tier still evolving, but I do think it's good to continually discuss things.

Just wondering on why you placed Ting-lu, Darkrai and Dragonite where they are? (I would have swapped Dragonite and Ting-lu personally, but I think that Darkrai isn't close to broken).

 

[658Greninja]

Made this after some others brought up their template in the Trainer Aid discord the other day. Figured it would be cool to share so people could see roughly how I view the tier -- obviously this is very rough, unofficial, etc. Terms like "unhealthy" are far less formal and more "vibes" based than anything else.

Volcarona being lower right quadrant should be no surprise for those who read my posts in the suspect thread, but you can also see other "controversial" metagame presences like Kyurem, Darkrai, Deoxys-Speed in a similar quadrant (or Wellspring all the way at the end of "broken") -- I do not think we need to rush to any action after Volcarona suspect, especially with the tier still evolving, but I do think it's good to continually discuss things.

Darkrai is surprising to me. While it is an amazing wallbreaker with merit of viable items/sets, I don’t think it reaches broken territory. Its fraility and 4MSS (it wants to fit NP, Focus Miss, Ice Beam, etc) keeps it from that territory. Plus there are legitimate checks like Zama, Ting-Lu, SpD Corv, etc.

Zama is a top 5 mon and one that is strong into HO while being amazing defensively. Roar Zama is one of the best glues on BO and even Balance. However it’s not broken at all. Its matchup into Fat/Balance is worse than the other S and A+ tiers. They often already come with checks like Gliscor, Lando, bulky Ghold, Dirge, Pult, Amoonguss, Molt, Clef, etc. HO has also made some anti-Zama adaptations like Tera Ghost on random sweepers or Enam/Hatt which have made me run more Heavy Slam on Zama cause ppl spam s7a’s Darkspam team everywhere. Zama it's on the healthy side imo as it covers several matchups in one slot while being threatening offensively.

I don’t get this one. The best HO lead? Yes. Decent wallbreaker with Power Herb + Meteor Beam? Yes. Broken? No.

Pure Psychic and 95 SpA are bad, even with Psycho Boost. It’s carried by being the fastest unboosted mon in the tier, great coverage, and being good for role compression. Its been on a steady climb after a successful SPL run and might become top 10 in the future, but I can’t call it broken. LO sets get worn down and outclassed by Val or Darkrai. The other sets aren’t that strong. It also has a pool of checks such as Corv, Ghold, Ting-Lu, AV Crown, Mixed Dfse Mola, Hatt etc.

Wake and Sun is the worst its been. Mostly cause of players adapting to CB G-Fire and Tera Water giving Wake a hard time breaking. Sun also dislikes matchups like Prima, Dnite, Gambit, Garg, Bolt, Glimm, etc. Idk why Wake is even considered on the unhealthy/broken spectrum.

Even without Volc, I don’t see Kyurem being broken. Specs is support reliant and pivoted around by Protect Gliscor/Mola or Glowking + bulky Ice resist, and ofc rocks. Mid set imo. Boots is the best set, but it has more difficulties breaking bulky targets like Clef, SpD Garg, Dirge, etc. Kyurem can be out-offensed by faster builds, especially those with checks like Glowking, AV Crown, or Balloon Gambit/Ghold. Some will bring up DD, but DD is easy to read. You rarely see it outside HO and even then, it’s not common. I think Kyurem is incredible, especially as the meta slows down, but I stopped finding it broken since the beginning of February. I’m curious in seeing your stance, Finch. Plus your stance on the other 5 mons.

 

[Finchinator]

Just wondering on why you placed Ting-lu, Darkrai and Dragonite where they are? (I would have swapped Dragonite and Ting-lu personally, but I think that Darkrai isn't close to broken).

Ting Lu is pretty dumb for offense as Ruination is super free and it takes so little from everything, meaning it can set 'em up and Whirl things out without being disrupted earlier in games a lot. It will never be banned and is mostly balanced, but my placement just reflects a "yea, it's annoying"

Dnite is just a balanced glue mon that fits with a nice variety of sets, but never, ever been an issue

I don’t get this one. The best HO lead? Yes. Decent wallbreaker with Power Herb + Meteor Beam? Yes. Broken? No.

I mean it is quite literally the closest Pokemon to the center...

Not sure how anyone can construe this as me saying it is broken so much as me saying "ok this Pokemon is kind of annoying, but not close to a top worry at all"

I think people are really misunderstanding the chart

 

[serotine]

Where else are we gonna make sweeping generalizations and fail to reconcile differences in our peers?
Give the poor man a break lmao, quadrants are supposed to create discussion because of their granularity. Not as litmus for determining the next suspect or anything else akin to that. I recommend others make a graph too, it really helps break down superlative thinking and gives more space to challenge yourself and beliefs you had.

 

[Moyashi]

Just wondering on why you placed Ting-lu, Darkrai and Dragonite where they are? (I would have swapped Dragonite and Ting-lu personally, but I think that Darkrai isn't close to broken).

Really? Dragonite is nowhere close to its peak from earlier in the gen when people used to think it was broken.

Even without Volc, I don’t see Kyurem being broken. Specs is support reliant and pivoted around by Protect Gliscor/Mola or Glowking + bulky Ice resist, and ofc rocks. Mid set imo. Boots is the best set, but it has more difficulties breaking bulky targets like Clef, SpD Garg, Dirge, etc. Kyurem can be out-offensed by faster builds, especially those with checks like Glowking, AV Crown, or Balloon Gambit/Ghold. Some will bring up DD, but DD is easy to read. You rarely see it outside HO and even then, it’s not common. I think Kyurem is incredible, especially as the meta slows down, but I stopped finding it broken since the beginning of February. I’m curious in seeing your stance, Finch. Plus your stance on the other 5 mons.

Considering specs chunks even resists, this seems like a weird take. Glowking is such a fake specs check given how much it takes from ice beam, and protect on Gliscor is hardly solving this issue. Yeah specs is support reliant, but it also makes awkward the building process as there aren't truly a lot of "safe" answers to it. Yeah yeah out offensed by faster builds. Technically so is Wellspring but that's also a major chore to prep for and restricts building.

Pure Psychic and 95 SpA are bad, even with Psycho Boost. It’s carried by being the fastest unboosted mon in the tier, great coverage, and being good for role compression. Its been on a steady climb after a successful SPL run and might become top 10 in the future, but I can’t call it broken. LO sets get worn down and outclassed by Val or Darkrai. The other sets aren’t that strong. It also has a pool of checks such as Corv, Ghold, Ting-Lu, AV Crown, Mixed Dfse Mola, Hatt etc.

While I'm not sure I'd agree with problem right now, you're underselling it a lot here. Offenses aren't super high, but the huge speed enables highly flexible EVs which makes it a super versatile mon that can be customized in a number of ways. It is also a good momentum generator.

 

[Bold School]

Pure Psychic and 95 SpA are bad, even with Psycho Boost. It’s carried by being the fastest unboosted mon in the tier, great coverage, and being good for role compression. Its been on a steady climb after a successful SPL run and might become top 10 in the future, but I can’t call it broken. LO sets get worn down and outclassed by Val or Darkrai. The other sets aren’t that strong. It also has a pool of checks such as Corv, Ghold, Ting-Lu, AV Crown, Mixed Dfse Mola, Hatt etc.

I just want to point out that the mixed attacking LO sets aren't that easy to switch into, particularly when running Tera Dark Knock Off. Crown and Ghold are not checks to that. Alomomola hates losing its item, which is often HBD or AV, and then will hate taking Psycho Boosts. Ting-Lu is a very limited check if it's not close to full with a clean switch since Superpower does about half and Ice Beam does another quarter. And because of the high speed stat, you can afford to run a lot more EVs in both special attack and attack than many people think.

It's mostly just the Metal Birds (more so Corv than Skarm because Skarm has no Sp. Def for Ice Beam) and special defensive Fairy walls that aren't Unaware Clefable. So the main counters are Corv, Hatt, and Prim with a few more situational things. Clef needs to run a very specific set where it is essentially max HP and Special Defense with Magic Guard since the Unaware set will still get KO'd in 2 by Psycho Boost. Gouging Fire can maybe do it depending on the set. If it is the typical bulky set and at full, it can maybe live two Psycho Boosts in a row with favorable rolls and heal up the damage. If it isn't bulky, it will be 2 shot.

Other D-speed sets can be switched into easier, but most of the checks you mentioned or would think of will differ depending on the coverage available. They aren't really safe.

 

[Magcargo]

IDK, personally find specs Kyurem to be mid and the styles its on to not be too great. Requires a ton of support between ensuring Rocks are gone at all times and multiple pivots, forcing it into awkward team comps where it is supposedly a decent queen piece, but almost never hits the field. This is less of specs Kyurem's fault, but Specs Blizzard is also not too easy to setup, even with GKing support. Most teams make it a bit awkward to spam particularly as most of the mons I'm using to switch into Gking (like Kingambit, Gholdengo, my own Gking, Iron Crown, etc. also don't do all that bad vs Kyurem and its specs Blizzard. Compared to Waterpon (which I absolutely find unfair in this tier), I'm usually not too scared when I face Specs Kyurem (though its definetly more annoying to face than use). One could make a case that Specs Ghold is better than Specs Kyurem, and I wouldn't entirely disagree, seeing as that set requires a lot less support, has similar breaking power, and can trick away the Specs on a wall to cripple it in the midgame.

I know a few players got reqs using that Specs Kyurem sample team made by Pinkacross, which I do respect. However, I tried using that sample to go for reqs several times and found it very unintuitive to pilot, precisely since it was designed around supporting Specs Kyurem, which more than often couldn't enter the field safely at all. Also didn't help how that team's main form of speed control was Booster Valiant, which would usually be triggered over the course of the match and make the team more vulnerable to stuff like NP Darkrai once it was triggered.

 

[Finchinator]

Specs Kyurem, among the other sets, is very good. It needs support, but look at the amount of damage it does on average. And there are multiple good teams with it. Arguing it’s not good is really a non-starter in serious discussions. It’s one of the better sets one of the most threatening Pokemon.

 

[Heatranator]

Since we are talking about kyurem a bit, one set I have had success with is scarf kyurem. You specifically have to go modest if you want to ohko dragapult with freeze dry, but it's still plenty fast otherwise, or you can forgo that and just run timid. You are one of the best cleaners in the game as due to kyurem's good bulk and typing, a lot of priority won't do much. You are threatened by i-val, but a simple tera poison solves the issue. I think it's a really good set that I am a bit surprised hasn't been explored more.

 

[RS25802580]

Made this after some others brought up their template in the Trainer Aid discord the other day. Figured it would be cool to share so people could see roughly how I view the tier -- obviously this is very rough, unofficial, etc. Terms like "unhealthy" are far less formal and more "vibes" based than anything else.

Volcarona being lower right quadrant should be no surprise for those who read my posts in the suspect thread, but you can also see other "controversial" metagame presences like Kyurem, Darkrai, Deoxys-Speed in a similar quadrant (or Wellspring all the way at the end of "broken") -- I do not think we need to rush to any action after Volcarona suspect, especially with the tier still evolving, but I do think it's good to continually discuss things.

I’m confused as to how a mon could simultaneously be considered broken and healthy… apologies if I missed something. I always thought the word broken implied too strong for the tier?

Or here, does broken instead just mean “really good”?

 

[Finchinator]

I’m confused as to how a mon could simultaneously be considered broken and healthy… apologies if I missed something. I always thought the word broken implied too strong for the tier?

Did you read the text in the post or just take a look at the graph?

" Terms like "unhealthy" are far less formal and more "vibes" based than anything else "

 

[RS25802580]

Did you read the text in the post or just take a look at the graph?

" Terms like "unhealthy" are far less formal and more "vibes" based than anything else "

That does not answer my question… I get that healthy is vibes based.

But if someone feels that a mon is “broken”, how does it simultaneously vibe as healthy?

Am I misunderstanding what broken means here?

 

[Finchinator]

That does not answer my question… how is mon simultaneously broken and healthy?

I mean it at very least partially answered it -- you should not be assigning actual tiering weight to health.

With this in mind: Every tier needs some degree of centralization to have identity -- look at every past OU...you have things like Latios in BW or Magearna in SM or Weavile/Dragapult last generation

Things like Dragapult have very few checks that are able to hang with it long-term, but are healthy for the metagame and so baked-in to our teambuilding norms that they are much harder to justify true action on. You can look at a dozen of these graphs from the server and end up seeing Dragapult almost always in the same quadrant.

You can argue the same for stuff like Zamazenta or Gambit in different capacities, too. Broken applies a lot differently to them because we end up seeing their counters rising to the top as a relation to their degree of relevance/usage.