People who disagree with you are “pussy”. Got it. Is this the kind of rhetoric we should support in this forum?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [PALAFIN RETEST]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
People who disagree with you are “pussy”. Got it. Is this the kind of rhetoric we should support in this forum?
One thing I will say is that certain strong Pokemon being in the tier to punish these Pokemon is a great thing. I actually love things like Roaring Moon, Gouging Fire, and even Ogerpon-Wellspring because it punishes this type of play. I think the power creep this generation has helped balance out the instant restoration of these teams relative to some prior generations (not that I dislike those tiers, but IMO SV is unique and sometimes better because of this).
I actually think certain bulky Pokemon need more suspect attention, too. Mainly Garganacl though, not Alo or GKing, but that's another discussion for another day.
I am more than willing to be patient. I think that's one of the best lessons of this generation actually: the metagame moves fast and we must be receptive to that.
I do not think the Gouging Fire test was a mistake because the community was sure of it at one point, but I think it showed how easily the tier shifts. I do think the initial Volcarona ban was rushed and the Walking Wake suspect was rushed though, and the latter really looks silly looking back at it. In the end, it's a matter of playing a lot of games and staying in-touch as SV evolves a lot.
I do not think we need to ban Darkrai today and while I do think it is suspect worthy, we can see how WCoP playoffs go the next week or two and then let the whole council decide, not just me (or you). Maybe things shift, maybe not. But we can discuss this and have a vote/find a solution. Not too worried.
OLT is around the corner and I am sure a whole slate of new discussions will come with it, too.
HF this weekend, excited for your game with Star and mine with PZZ.
If we lose Garg and not Rai this tier is so cooked lol.
my umprompted thoughts on the last discussion points:
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should be tested. What some view as 4MSS makes for equal set variance, and from my most subjective point of view there shouldn't be any fuss about a mon that is as one dimentional as it gets. Darkrai has NP+3att, might have some item variety and its coverage depends, but it does one thing. I think that it's a great pick for the next subject as it's going to be one that can be handled with relative straightforwardness and we will not hear any merits on Darkrai's defensive profile in the tier, looking at u Volc.
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is completely balanced and I don't even begin to see where the uproar is. Oooh weee i got chipped for 12% oof ouch owie i drank salt juice. I think that it's a great choice for balance and bulkier playstyles that has to live with a poor defensive typing or be a Tera hog that cannot deal with every threat at once
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im starting to see as a positive force in the meta. its set variance also leaves it exposed massively and its really hard to justify without boots or hazard removal, and i dont think its wallbreaking power is anything unreasonable
- as for something completely unrelated, i won against exotic64 on a ou room tour yesterday with a quick psyspam team i put together, obligatory indeedee polteageist and hawlucha, nice wp armarouge and tera poison cresselia (for noobs that think cress is supported by psyterrain) and defensive tusk with cc instead of eq to deal with darks, set rocks and spin for poltea. it was a fun game and exotic put one hell of a fight along with a lucky magma storm miss which gave me time to recover my cress. i dont mean to brag but im happy with my learning experience in sv ou as i tend to learn a bunch of tiers but then i lack actual gameplay experience. if i was younger i might put the time and effort to start playing tours but life gets in the way
- last but not least, guys, be better, yes mons is a majorly male dominated space but there are plentiful female and lgbtq+ folks amongst us to spare certain language, and even if there werent, its certainly never right to go down that path. i get we're all jumpy but hey, no need for certain shit
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should be tested. What some view as 4MSS makes for equal set variance, and from my most subjective point of view there shouldn't be any fuss about a mon that is as one dimentional as it gets. Darkrai has NP+3att, might have some item variety and its coverage depends, but it does one thing. I think that it's a great pick for the next subject as it's going to be one that can be handled with relative straightforwardness and we will not hear any merits on Darkrai's defensive profile in the tier, looking at u Volc.-
is completely balanced and I don't even begin to see where the uproar is. Oooh weee i got chipped for 12% oof ouch owie i drank salt juice. I think that it's a great choice for balance and bulkier playstyles that has to live with a poor defensive typing or be a Tera hog that cannot deal with every threat at once-
im starting to see as a positive force in the meta. its set variance also leaves it exposed massively and its really hard to justify without boots or hazard removal, and i dont think its wallbreaking power is anything unreasonable- as for something completely unrelated, i won against exotic64 on a ou room tour yesterday with a quick psyspam team i put together, obligatory indeedee polteageist and hawlucha, nice wp armarouge and tera poison cresselia (for noobs that think cress is supported by psyterrain) and defensive tusk with cc instead of eq to deal with darks, set rocks and spin for poltea. it was a fun game and exotic put one hell of a fight along with a lucky magma storm miss which gave me time to recover my cress. i dont mean to brag but im happy with my learning experience in sv ou as i tend to learn a bunch of tiers but then i lack actual gameplay experience. if i was younger i might put the time and effort to start playing tours but life gets in the way
- last but not least, guys, be better, yes mons is a majorly male dominated space but there are plentiful female and lgbtq+ folks amongst us to spare certain language, and even if there werent, its certainly never right to go down that path. i get we're all jumpy but hey, no need for certain shit
This part right here is huge, something I absolutely 100% agree with, and also something I wanted to add to. A lot of players confuse raw bulk with defensive utility, and while Darkrai does have solid bulk for a fast offensive threat, it is nearly completely lacking in true defensive utility other than being a Ghost resist. Couple that with Darkrai’s low initial power for a balance breaker, and it finds itself contingent on both finding opportunities to be pivoted into safely AND being able to set up a Nasty Plot without eating a hit that puts itself in range of priority/Dragapult/Zama/Booster Speed/Scarf revenge killing it. Darkrai may be very good at what it does, but what it does is not something it just does for free, and it takes a lot of genuine outplaying of its opponent to take maximum advantage of it, plus a good set matchup vs the enemy’s team since unlike Volcarona it’s contingent on a lot more than just flipping its Tera type to match up well vs all balance structures.
Also Finchinator something I’ve been thinking about that I wanted your opinion on: is Darkrai not just taking advantage of the linear balance structures created by Waterpon and Kyurem? Darkrai itself has to stretch itself thin to be able to account for all the theoretical types of balance structures it could come across, but at the moment, it doesn’t actually have to vary its sets as much as it otherwise would have because balance is currently struggling to handle two other massive breakers who don’t have to vary their sets nearly as much in order to massively threaten most structures. It just feels like to me Darkrai is really good at taking advantage of the current state of the metagame, but is not actually the true cause of the metagame’s state itself, if that makes sense.
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I’m asking this in as serious a fashion as I possibly can: what came first, the chicken or the egg?
The egg always comes first because evolution is a thing. Many animals laid eggs before chickens evolved. Whatever evolved into a chicken must have hatched from an egg first. The egg can also be synonymous with egg cells, which predate the chicken egg even becoming multicellular.
In the case of Pokemon, Arceus would have created something, many things, that laid an egg before it created a chicken pokemon since there is no evidence of one being amongst the ancient pokemon. There is evidence of Archeops, though, which is likely to predate all chickens.
In the event of this original question, where Darkrai is presumably the chicken in this analogy, and Wellspring and Kyurem represent the egg as the initial environment created, it would still be the egg since Darkrai had to be dropped down from Ubers in the first place.
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In the past couple days, I laddered with a fresh alt and unintentionally got the usual voting reqs. I won't be posting the alt here as I may share the alt for a team tour, so you'll have to take me for my word. As someone who has been mostly pro-ban with this generation's suspects (sometimes when I shouldn't have been in hindsight), I feel pretty confident in saying I would vote Do Not Ban on Darkrai if there were a suspect going on right now.
The hardest part of dealing with Darkrai is scouting its set. Ignoring its many utility options, you first have to figure out its coverage moves. Most Pokemon that solidly check Darkrai can take on 3 of its 4 common attacks, but not all 4. Kingambit takes on Dark Pulse, Sludge Bomb, and Ice Beam, but not Focus Blast. Specially defensive Gliscor can take on Dark Pulse, Sludge Bomb, and Focus Blast, but not Ice Beam. This, however, is what keeps Darkrai balanced: 4MSS. Dark Pulse and Sludge Bomb are usually a given, but it cannot fit both Ice Beam and Focus Blast on a good set. One of Trick, Nasty Plot, and Will-O-Wisp are needed on the seemingly "broken" sets. With a well-constructed team and good play, you can scout pretty easily. Protect Gliscor or doubling out with Kingambit are two examples that come to mind and are fairly consistent in practice.
On the topic of a well-constructed team, every playstyle has many tools in its arsenal to handle Darkrai, and it is not restrictive in the teambuilder. I won't break down each unique playstyle as Storm Zone did a great job of that already, but in general, HO outspeeds, Stall has Blissey + Clodsire, and everything in between can throw on a random AV and/or 1-2 sturdy checks (e.g. a bulky resist and a Pokemon that outspeeds and threatens). In particular, we are seeing AV be used more often as it helps out against Kyurem, Raging Bolt, and other problematic special breakers, which I find to be a healthy metagame development rather than centralizing.
Once Darkrai racks up damage, it becomes far less threatening. Hazard damage, pivot moves, resisted hits, status, etc. eventually put Darkrai in range of neutral hits from Pokemon that it would normally force out. A perfect example of this is Galarian Slowking, which can eat one Dark Pulse comfortably and do ~40% damage to Darkrai, which is a relatively safe play to make once Darkrai is around that health range. Kingambit typically hits in that 30-40% range as well with Sucker Punch, so a worn-down Darkrai without Will-O-Wisp cannot threaten Kingambit out, not even with Focus Blast.
The only argument left would be how every move has luck tied to it (20% flinch, 30% poison, 10% freeze, 30% chance to miss), and this isn't much of a concern. ID Zamazenta's Crunch has a 20% chance to drop defense on Gholdengo and win the 1v1. Ogerpon has a 12.5% chance to crit a would-be check. Specs Dragapult has a 20% chance to drop the opponent's special defense and turn a 3HKO into a 2HKO. That's just part of the game we play. Even the extreme case of Poison Touch Sneasler with Dire Claw, luck was not the primary reason it got banned; the metagame adapted with Covert Cloak, which subsequently helped a lot into Garganacl who was also quite strong into the metagame. Instead, Unburden ended up being the busted set that pushed it over the edge. My point is that luck is what it is, and unless it is restricting and uncompetitive, I don't see any issue.
On the other side of the argument, Darkrai offers a lot for most playstyles: Dark-type, speed control, various utility options, respectable bulk, strong special attacker, set-up / breaking potential, coverage compression, you name it. The main questions I ask myself for a suspected Pokemon are 1) Does the Pokemon encourage competitive play, and 2) Does the Pokemon help in the builder more than or as much as it restricts? To both those questions, I say yes, and therefore, I believe Darkrai is balanced.
I'm open to a suspect test on Darkrai, but if I voted today, it would be Do Not Ban.
The hardest part of dealing with Darkrai is scouting its set. Ignoring its many utility options, you first have to figure out its coverage moves. Most Pokemon that solidly check Darkrai can take on 3 of its 4 common attacks, but not all 4. Kingambit takes on Dark Pulse, Sludge Bomb, and Ice Beam, but not Focus Blast. Specially defensive Gliscor can take on Dark Pulse, Sludge Bomb, and Focus Blast, but not Ice Beam. This, however, is what keeps Darkrai balanced: 4MSS. Dark Pulse and Sludge Bomb are usually a given, but it cannot fit both Ice Beam and Focus Blast on a good set. One of Trick, Nasty Plot, and Will-O-Wisp are needed on the seemingly "broken" sets. With a well-constructed team and good play, you can scout pretty easily. Protect Gliscor or doubling out with Kingambit are two examples that come to mind and are fairly consistent in practice.
On the topic of a well-constructed team, every playstyle has many tools in its arsenal to handle Darkrai, and it is not restrictive in the teambuilder. I won't break down each unique playstyle as Storm Zone did a great job of that already, but in general, HO outspeeds, Stall has Blissey + Clodsire, and everything in between can throw on a random AV and/or 1-2 sturdy checks (e.g. a bulky resist and a Pokemon that outspeeds and threatens). In particular, we are seeing AV be used more often as it helps out against Kyurem, Raging Bolt, and other problematic special breakers, which I find to be a healthy metagame development rather than centralizing.
Once Darkrai racks up damage, it becomes far less threatening. Hazard damage, pivot moves, resisted hits, status, etc. eventually put Darkrai in range of neutral hits from Pokemon that it would normally force out. A perfect example of this is Galarian Slowking, which can eat one Dark Pulse comfortably and do ~40% damage to Darkrai, which is a relatively safe play to make once Darkrai is around that health range. Kingambit typically hits in that 30-40% range as well with Sucker Punch, so a worn-down Darkrai without Will-O-Wisp cannot threaten Kingambit out, not even with Focus Blast.
The only argument left would be how every move has luck tied to it (20% flinch, 30% poison, 10% freeze, 30% chance to miss), and this isn't much of a concern. ID Zamazenta's Crunch has a 20% chance to drop defense on Gholdengo and win the 1v1. Ogerpon has a 12.5% chance to crit a would-be check. Specs Dragapult has a 20% chance to drop the opponent's special defense and turn a 3HKO into a 2HKO. That's just part of the game we play. Even the extreme case of Poison Touch Sneasler with Dire Claw, luck was not the primary reason it got banned; the metagame adapted with Covert Cloak, which subsequently helped a lot into Garganacl who was also quite strong into the metagame. Instead, Unburden ended up being the busted set that pushed it over the edge. My point is that luck is what it is, and unless it is restricting and uncompetitive, I don't see any issue.
On the other side of the argument, Darkrai offers a lot for most playstyles: Dark-type, speed control, various utility options, respectable bulk, strong special attacker, set-up / breaking potential, coverage compression, you name it. The main questions I ask myself for a suspected Pokemon are 1) Does the Pokemon encourage competitive play, and 2) Does the Pokemon help in the builder more than or as much as it restricts? To both those questions, I say yes, and therefore, I believe Darkrai is balanced.
I'm open to a suspect test on Darkrai, but if I voted today, it would be Do Not Ban.
Methinks when we load up a online forum for Pokemon we should be conspiratorial as possible, in fact we should assume there's a nefarious attempt to work against us at all times. They're in my walls? The councils in my walls? Council itself, is a scary word. That implies power, power to censor and ruin me. What do I do, fellas? Finch flinched me with Darkrai earlier (he manipulated the rng personally, I heard him in it) and made me lose.
Anyway
Having played against Garc a ton I certainly see why people would have issues with it--In my view though, unlike some things, its completely neutered by a good Tinkaton para or encore. Sure prediction and it hurts offense structures etc, but I think it only becomes a real 'issue' once Gilscor is paired with it. The two in conjunction are a nightmare to deal with, having to predict toxics or Salt cures in tandem is taxing. Unlike Garg though, Gilscor doens't gotta deal with shit most of the time.
Anyway
Having played against Garc a ton I certainly see why people would have issues with it--In my view though, unlike some things, its completely neutered by a good Tinkaton para or encore. Sure prediction and it hurts offense structures etc, but I think it only becomes a real 'issue' once Gilscor is paired with it. The two in conjunction are a nightmare to deal with, having to predict toxics or Salt cures in tandem is taxing. Unlike Garg though, Gilscor doens't gotta deal with shit most of the time.
There are so many actions in-game to take against Darkrai you could probably make a song about it
DARKRAI IS NOT BROKEN!
3/4 of these 'mons do not need to be healthy to be able to check or worst case, force tera.
Darkrai cannot run every set in the game. It needs to pick and choose, or remove NP / Wisp / Trick / etc. in exchange for another move slot.
Darkrai is one of the only * splashable * answers to Gliscor as I had mentioned here. Kyurem will never be a splashable Pokemon you can just slap on your team, it is a very specific 'mon to add onto teams and you will fail hard if not used on the correct structure
Darkrai is a fad. There is no way this 'mon is any more broken than Kingambit or literally any other relevant threat we have in the meta.
There is an Elite 4 in our meta: Wellspring, Darkrai, Kingambit, Zamazenta. Together all four live in harmony, keeping everything in check. Just think about it: without Zamazenta there would be many 'mons (gambit) that would be nuked off the tier immediately. If you remove one of these guys you create a disaster within the meta, the balance would be broken and with the amount of 'mons we have banned already, we would just be adding another one to the list. Do we really wanna add another one to the list?
Instead of focusing on banning Pokemon, we should focus on unban/retests.
Palafin is a real 'mon that could be retested at any time in the future.
There is nothing within our tiering policy that can stop us from doing this at any point.
If the meta is fine right now, as quoted from Vert, Storm and myself, why do we continue to suggest bans on Pokemon that actually benefit our metagame instead of looking at retests, which we can do at any time. Personally as a member of council I believe we should talk about 'mons that could benefit our metagame that are currently banned (cough palafin)
We can't just continue to ban 'mons for the sake of it. 20+ mons banned, albeit most are deserved, to add more when the meta is in a currently good state would be a mistake.
Do you know how versatile this meta is? You can use almost anything you want and make it viable. Tera is the solution to all
What are we scared of? Head to your builder today and start theorizing anti-Rai sets and I guarantee you'll come up as much as there is answers to Gouging Fire back when it was suspected, which was also a fad just like how this is
And dont get me started on the Wellspring discussion, it was never broken
Do I even need to mention hazards? Boots leaves you exposed to a million 'mons and most boots rai = Utility
SV OU was never meant for "balance" meta. Check the 'mons we have banned, the mons we have in the tier right now. This is the most offensive meta we've had since 5. Are we just gonna ban the entire tier to fix this? Let's not create a new narrative from what we've had for the last year or two
Finally since I had already quoted checks/counters from Vert and Storm's post I will mic drop here, there's nothing more to say.
Except I asked ChatGPT to write you a song about how Darkrai isn't broken with all checks/counters listed from both posts
Please enjoy it. And remember, Tera is your friend
DARKRAI IS NOT BROKEN!
3/4 of these 'mons do not need to be healthy to be able to check or worst case, force tera.
Darkrai cannot run every set in the game. It needs to pick and choose, or remove NP / Wisp / Trick / etc. in exchange for another move slot.
Darkrai is one of the only * splashable * answers to Gliscor as I had mentioned here. Kyurem will never be a splashable Pokemon you can just slap on your team, it is a very specific 'mon to add onto teams and you will fail hard if not used on the correct structure
Darkrai is a fad. There is no way this 'mon is any more broken than Kingambit or literally any other relevant threat we have in the meta.
There is an Elite 4 in our meta: Wellspring, Darkrai, Kingambit, Zamazenta. Together all four live in harmony, keeping everything in check. Just think about it: without Zamazenta there would be many 'mons (gambit) that would be nuked off the tier immediately. If you remove one of these guys you create a disaster within the meta, the balance would be broken and with the amount of 'mons we have banned already, we would just be adding another one to the list. Do we really wanna add another one to the list?
Instead of focusing on banning Pokemon, we should focus on unban/retests.
Palafin is a real 'mon that could be retested at any time in the future.
There is nothing within our tiering policy that can stop us from doing this at any point.
If the meta is fine right now, as quoted from Vert, Storm and myself, why do we continue to suggest bans on Pokemon that actually benefit our metagame instead of looking at retests, which we can do at any time. Personally as a member of council I believe we should talk about 'mons that could benefit our metagame that are currently banned (cough palafin)
We can't just continue to ban 'mons for the sake of it. 20+ mons banned, albeit most are deserved, to add more when the meta is in a currently good state would be a mistake.
Do you know how versatile this meta is? You can use almost anything you want and make it viable. Tera is the solution to all
What are we scared of? Head to your builder today and start theorizing anti-Rai sets and I guarantee you'll come up as much as there is answers to Gouging Fire back when it was suspected, which was also a fad just like how this is
And dont get me started on the Wellspring discussion, it was never broken
Do I even need to mention hazards? Boots leaves you exposed to a million 'mons and most boots rai = Utility
SV OU was never meant for "balance" meta. Check the 'mons we have banned, the mons we have in the tier right now. This is the most offensive meta we've had since 5. Are we just gonna ban the entire tier to fix this? Let's not create a new narrative from what we've had for the last year or two
Finally since I had already quoted checks/counters from Vert and Storm's post I will mic drop here, there's nothing more to say.
Except I asked ChatGPT to write you a song about how Darkrai isn't broken with all checks/counters listed from both posts
Please enjoy it. And remember, Tera is your friend
Can we please get lyrics for the Darkrai rap
Okay the middle part is just the quoted post but the first 30 seconds were fire
Okay the middle part is just the quoted post but the first 30 seconds were fire
i think you're right, but i don't think public opinion is sufficient to suspect it right this minute. the survey scored it a bit over 3.5, which makes me think that a suspect won't result in a ban and we should probably hold off until darkrai sees consistent survey results. if we wait around a month or so, either it'll blow over like the talk of dragapult did back when a bunch of people wanted to ban that, or the resentment towards it will grow stronger and more people will support a suspect
ctc's thread should get more discussion. if volcarona ban failed we were going to have a 'philosophy' discussion and well its happening anyways and I agree with them. we should have it out before continuing with darkrai discussion-
I think Tera Blast should go and it will open the game up to more fun.
IMO
I think Tera Blast should go and it will open the game up to more fun.
IMO
What Pokémon would have to be banned if Zama was hypothetically nuked off the planet via orbital strike? People always mention Kingambit, but are mons like Iron Hands, Keldeo, Quaquaval so inadequate that they’d stand no chance? Is the pool of Pokémon so bad in SV OU that non could rise to the occasion to check some of the tiers offensive threats?
At minimum, we would have to ban Darkrai, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Kingambit, and maybe Roaring Moon if Zamazenta were to go.
It's not that the pool of Pokemon in SV OU is so bad but that some of the mons introduced into SV OU are some of the strongest ever in the history of Pokemon with unprecedented power creep. So many mons like Annihilape, Baxcalibur, and Ursaluna-Bloodmoon were insane relative to past gen Pokemon.
Pokemon such as Iron Hands, Keldeo, and Quaquaval are just not easily splashable Pokemon and have a lot more downsides to using compared to things like Zamazenta and Great Tusk. The other Ogerpon forms are also much less splashable than Wellspring and take huge damage from Iron Head.
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I think 4MSS holds back Ogerpon-W as well. No Trailblaze means RK - no PR is Dragon food, no Encore and Gambit can handle it, etc.
I legit haven't seen a logical argument to keep Tera Blast. It seems like an easy QB to me idk. That said, very few mons actual take advantage of TB and it's essentially a wasted move slot unless your team revolves around a dedicated Tera strategy. I haven't seen a TB Fairy Gambit in quite some time but I'm sure it's still around. I assume TB Ground Serp is a thing but I haven't seen it. Banning TB means we could have Leki back, and maybe even Volc but not sure about that one. It's just a low priority for the council and the playerbase. Leki coming back would be v cool tho imo- it would be nice to have another option to handle Zama.
Those mons can handle Gambit in a vacuum but factoring in Tera and the sheer insane power of boosted 5 sucker punch they're not always a sure thing. Even if they were, they're subpar mons when you don't vs Gambit and would basically be dead weight in many scenarios.
As far what would be banned, nothing really. Gambit isn't going anywhere. Oger-W gets better forsure and random stuff like Moon and Weav get better, but a Zama ban just means HO can cheese wins much easier, basically.
and we don't now? i wouldn't miss any of those chucklefucks for a second, zamazenta or namazenta
Darkrai is the only one of those that is unquestionably broken to me. I can live with all of the rest I mentioned as long as Zamazenta is still around. Once Darkrai is gone, the special offense HO that is dominant will be much less of a problem.
I maintain that Zamazenta is healthy for the meta by being a splashable check to the really strong physical attackers in the tier and causes a healthy degree of centralization while still having reasonable counterplay options.
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there doesn't need to be a logical argument to keep it, only to ban it. the burden of proof lies on the people who want to change the status quo, not the ones who want to maintain it. this can stifle progress at times, but it prevents throwing out things without reason to
I mostly just see the faster Dark-types getting booted, mainly Darkrai and Roaring Moon. Perhaps Ogerpon-W as well.
IDK how other, better players feel, but most of the shitty Fighting-types I've ran - in a vaccum - have a lot of value in the tier. Having the decent Gambit MU certainly helps, but most of them have value that extend beyond just Gambit. Chestnaught has Knock, good physical bulk, Spikes, recovery, and a typing that performs adequately against Ogerpon-W. Cobalion has Rocks, great speed Volt Switch, T-Wave, and the potent ID + BP combo as well (which is even stronger than Zama's). Quaquaval is able to pick and choose its counters, can snowball easily, and has Spin for utility. Heracross kinda fails as a Gambit counter, but it has an OK speed tier + can break some annoying fat cores thanks to its status immunity, typing, and power with Tera Normal Facade. Been a while since I used Keldeo, but its got a great speed tier, priority, & pairs pretty well with Future Sight support to be a diet Urshifu. Encore Pawmot can put gambit into 50/50s, paralyze other crap with Nuzzle, and has a decent Speed tier to hit stuff with CC. I could see a case being made for other fighting-types as well like Iron Hands, Kommo-o, Dogi, and even Hariyama having some niche.
I definetly am underestimating gambit, since it can beat a lot of these, but most of the Pokmeon I listed have some tools to ease the MU, whether it be ID + BP, Encore, or some other strong neutral option vs various Gambit Teras. A good number of them will still lose to Gambit - and lose badly. I specifically think Fighting-types on the lower end of the physial bulk spectrum like Blaziken, Quaquaval, and Heracross will struggle. That being said, on the flipside, other options like Tauros-P and Chesnaught seem like they should be more iron clad answers to gambit - with the right set of course.
Zama does overshadow these options a fair bit because of its traits being more valuable, so I'd imagine other fighting-types would be expiremented with more if it were banned. Even if it was banned though, I think most of these Fighting-types would still be overshadowed by Tusk. Very few Pokemon can compete with that cracked stat spread, booster energy access, Spin & Knock Utility, coverage, etc. The main reason I think these Pokemon would see play is because Tusk's typing gives it several awkward MUs against Kyurem, Wellspring, etc.
A quick note on Quaq - it resists both of Gambit's STABs. It has access to Roost for longevity, and like you said - the duck can threaten some weird-ass sweeps out of the blue (get it?) with Aqua Step and Moxie. It's as close to a hard counter to Gambit as one can get, just make sure your EVs are well calibrated and you're good to go.
The only reason people don't run it at all is because Zamazenta is THAT good. No reason to think of any other fighting types if Zamazenta will outclass all of them - Tusk being the exception, but that is because it has very different niches and a psychotic stat spread to go with it
Keldeo has Vacuum Wave to invalidate Sucker Punch.