Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Goodstyle said:
I don't understand the comparison between Terapagos Stellar form and Mega at all. It's called a separate form, and it gets different stats, but it's really not. It's what happens when this pokemon Terastilizes, a mechanic every other mon in the tier can do. It also is locked into that type of Tera. It can't do a "regular" Tera.

What people are arguing for is just making this mon arbitrarily be unable to Tera, a key mechanic of the gen. This isn't banning an item from that mon like with Mega evolution, this is removing the ability to do a thing every other mon can do because when this mon does it, it's broken. That doesn't make a lick of sense to me. That'd be like banning the move "protect" from a Pokemon who's exclusive ability it is to do 50% damage to the opponent every time they did protect. It's clear this mon is busted, implementing a ban to remove the use of a universal mechanic on one specific pokemon because it uses that mechnanic in a special broken way opens a huge can of worms and will damage the tiering process down the road.

If Tera as a whole gets banned, then yes, it'd make sense to bring the turtle back, but as of now, no way in hell should we entertain banning just the "stellar form" because that is a misnomer. What people are actually suggesting is locking the tera function on a specific pokemon in a meta where every other mon can tera at any time. It's sloppy, and it shouldn't be done.
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Honestly, I'm not a fan of putting Terapagos teraing and every other Pokémon as literally the same thing. Besides the name, what Terapagos does is simply not a universal mechanic. The universal mechanic of Terastalization allows you to choose any of the types available in the game, changes your type, and boosts the power of the Tera type. The universal mechanic of Terastalization does not make you change your ability, give you +100 BST, and quite literally changes you to a different forme of the Pokémon, with no option of changing what type you want. It is a unique mechanic to Terapagos that just shares the name with the others - and in a VERY relevant way, not something minor like Dynamax vs Gigantamax. Held items are also a universal mechanic of the game, but we still banned Gengar from holding Gengarite, not Gengar from holding items, Gengar, Gengarite, or Mega Evolution, or holding items in general.

I do plan on making a Policy Review thread on Terapagos-Stellar since I think the metagame discussion thread is not the best place for it - there's tons of stuff relating to the actual meta to talk about, alongside the fact that this is something the goes beyond OU and affects Smogon in general - remember, base formes weren't separated from Megas initially until ORAS where there was a Policy Review discussion, as Charizard was also attached to Mega Charizard X and Y, so base Charizard was OU and couldn't be used on lower tiers. Terapagos has similar cases for us to compare, but no one-to-one comparison, it's simply a case of its own.
 
I agree that we should take our Terapagos thoughts there, especially if that threat in of itself becomes fruitful.

Maybe I am a scrub but so far I'm not quite seeing just how overbearing Deoxys-S is. It's likely the area I'm at in ladder doesn't have people using the mon to the fullest, but my personal experience hasn't had it being nearly as dreadful as players better than me have described. Gouging Pyre seems like the scariest new addition to me, as something that can choose to do so many different things, while I see Boulder as a massive threat that effectively has to burn Tera to not have the worst defensive profile of all time.
 
i wrote a whole post regarding this silly complex ban argument going on but i've scrapped it for a simple question

how does banning the use of tera on a single pokemon make any sense within smogon tiering when every other pokemon has and still would have access to the mechanic?

regardless of "how" terapagos teras it is still clicking the same button to tera just like every other pokemon in the tier. if you want to use the not broken turtle either ban tera or deal with having the broken form in the tier. yes, i wish we could use the not broken turtle because its cute but that's not the logical or consistent approach. if you really want to do a policy thread about this, sure i guess. just ban terapagos as a whole in the mean time because keeping this thing around as it currently is while we wait for the "policy thread to wrap up" would be a giant mistake.
 
redninjapuffle said:
In that case...
I would like to apologize to Raging Bolt, I thought he was going to be mid in OU, but its pretty good bulk and dumb as hell signature move coming off of a base 137 SpA
Any other mons you guys underestimated going into the DLC?
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i underestimated the hell out of archaludon but it has absolutely been tearing through teams with stamina body press. it's got a good enough movepool, typing, special attack, and physical bulk that you can feasibly fit it on anything from offense to semistall. rain team? run it as an electro shot nuke. not enough special bulk for you? slap a vest on it and give it body press and 3 special attacks, it performs pretty damn well. need a phazer? use the rocks dragon tail set morkal posted. this mon is, to put it lightly, really good
 
Baloor said:
just ban terapagos as a whole in the mean time because keeping this thing around as it currently is while we wait for the "policy thread to wrap up" would be a giant mistake.
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I certainly hope no one is suggesting the big form stays for any amount of time longer than it has to tbh. The correct play is 100% to act now and then, were the policy discussion to go somewhere, revisit in in the future.
 
Comfey
250px-0764Comfey.png


Comfey @ Leftovers
Ability: Triage
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 SpA / 16 SpD / 240 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draining Kiss
- Knock Off
- Leech Seed
- U-turn

252+ SpA Triage Comfey Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 264-312 (75.2 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Triage Comfey Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 200-236 (69.2 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Triage Comfey Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 174-206 (61 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Triage Comfey Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 186-222 (57.9 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Triage Comfey Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 218-260 (58.7 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Triage Comfey Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 144-170 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Triage Comfey Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 116-140 (29.8 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Triage Comfey Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 144-170 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- 18.8% chance to 2HKO

Comfey is kinda wild right now and I love it. Triage gives STAB Draining Kiss priority, allowing Comfey to bypass a whole host of really insane speed tiers and nuke the Dark and Fighting-type Pokemon running wild throughout the tier at the moment. Draining Kiss 2HKOs a whole host of threatening Pokemon, while Comfey's naturally decent Special bulk allows it to live some surprisingly powerful super-effective hits (such as Scarf Darkrai's Sludge Bomb). What makes Comfey even better now though is its expanded toolkit with access to moves like Knock Off, Leech Seed, and U-Turn to disrupt your opponent's team cores. Iron Valiant, Darkrai, Hamott, Greninja, and several other mons do not like dealing with this little flower poof. It's worth giving a try right now, as it has some great utility and positive traits in the meta. 240 speed with neutral nature brings Comfey to 296, allowing it to maintain a speed advantage over threats like 252 speed positive nature Terapagos, Ceruledge, Rillaboom, Samurott-H, Gholdengo, Kommo-o, Kyurem, Dragonite, etc. Great utility, great typing, usable stats, and a phenomenal movepool, give Comfey a try!​
 
Tuthur said:
I'm not sure I understand your post correctly. It appeared to me you were saying I just made up criterias for tiering that are arbitrary and irrelevant to Smogon Tiering Policy. Sorry if that's not what you meant, maybe that's just an ESL moment.
However, that's not something I made up on the spot, that's the statu quo that's been using on Smogon since I've joined the website. Most of the threads about it are quite old, but I don't have seen anything more recent than that (though I know this was still the case earlier this year, since I had a discussion about Basculin's tiering with Marty in June). Maybe Terapagos is some exception to this rule for reasons unknown to me, but I don't think you've explained to me how it is different from Mega Evolutions, or any other in-game form changes (Ash-Greninja was notably tiered separately from Torrent/Protean Greninja).
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Because it’s not the same as Megas since they’re able to be tiered off of items and it’s not the same at all as Ash Greninja since only one Pokemon has Battle Bons, by the way. The point I am making is that the comparisons you are making aren’t correct — they do not function as precedent and implying they do is incorrect.
 
I know I don't really want to make this a one-liner, but I got a question for you guys: Which of the returning Pokemons do you think got buffed the most in terms of new additions to their movepools? Because for me it's gotta be Dewgong, but I think it's more in terms of raw amount of moves that can have an use competitively, namely Knock Off, Ice Spinner, Flip Turn, Drill Run and Play Rough, the latter 2 actually giving Dewgong more or less perfect coverage over it's weaknesses.
 
Tuthur said:
The dynamax input has been banned in SS OU, just like the Mega-Rayquaza input has been banned in SM and ORAS Ubers, and the tera input in SV Monotype.
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Yeah the input to dynamax is banned for every Pokémon, not just one, and Ubers is not a real tier - remember the Smogon credo "Lower tiers don't matter"

Everyone pls stop Terapagos posting it is so uninteresting, again I don't think the OU council could do anything even if they wanted to (in fact they might) bc they are subservient to site admins, let's get to discussing real topics such as solgaleo in ou (no way could you convince me it is better than iron Boulder)
 
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:sv/moltres-galar:
I think this kind of flew under people's radar, but Galarian Moltres got a really interesting new move that I think is worth messing around with: Pain Split. Any sort of semi-reliable recovery on this mon is kind of insane because 1) it's VERY bulky with a really valuable defensive typing, and 2) it has Berserk. Pain Split allows you to repeatedly activate Berserk while healing yourself. People have run Sitrus Berry or sets like Chesto Rest or even Rest Talk on this mon in the past, but Pain Split gives you recovery and repeated Berserk activation without eating up your item slot or multiple moveslots. I haven't had much of a chance to ladder yet, and it's probably gonna be overshadowed for a bit in this meta, but I could honestly see this mon seeing use on more than just Hyper Offense since it's a much more relevant defensive presence now while also randomly getting multiple SpAtk boosts.
 
DLC2 has been out for almost a day now, so I'll give some first impressions on some of the new pokemon I've been using.

⭐:squirtle:⭐ Terapagos is pretty fucking good. Absurd bulk, multiscale, and a 120 BP signature move that hits everything is ridiculous, and it's deep movepool makes it super versatile. It usually needs to run rock polish to avoid getting revenge killed, but tera starstorm is such a good move that it doesn't really need to run much other coverage. It's stellar form has a positive match up against basically everything, so it's pretty tough to counter.

:terrakion: Accurate rock stab, cc/eq coverage and excellent speed makes iron boulder a great booster sweeper. It's typing isn't great and it gets bitched by kingambit, but once it gets an SD it can rip teams apart.

:entei: Gouging fire has the perfect stat spread for a dragon dancer and is a big threat once it sets up. Crazy damage output under sun, and great synergy with walking wake. Flare blitz is kinda risky to rely on for its main stab, but it gets morning sun which helps. Probably the best new paradox pokemon.

:raikou: I've had a lot of fun using raging bolt, it's slow but electric sucker punch is great. I've been running sub+cm which takes advantage of it's great bulk. It doesn’t have good coverage, and it's vulnerable to fast dragons that resist thunder clap, but it still fits in quite well in ou.

The only one of these that seems bankable at the moment is terapagos, and only it's stellar form if possible. The meta's pretty chaotic right now (as expected) but I'm enjoying using the new stuff.
 
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Hello everyone with the Indigo Mask DLC Release I am back with building teams again,today I built 7 new teams all with fun ideas testing out many new stuff and they performed well,hope you enjoy :woop:

P.S: Terapagos is only on one team because that mon is omega broken and will end up getting quickbanned in a couple days anyways

https://pokepast.es/41b6df46bdaf3088 - Band Meowscarada Balance
https://pokepast.es/92bf3ca2d00a57e7 - Veil HO
https://pokepast.es/f899b51bd11904fd - Sun
https://pokepast.es/ad4e29b2cdad56e1 - Rain
https://pokepast.es/4bc4c98df4cc960f - Webs HO
https://pokepast.es/19bd31b9c28561ee - Psyspam HO
https://pokepast.es/0d11bc53d42c4ce0 - Drill Sand+Scarf Lati BO

I built these live on stream so check it out if you want to see the building process:
https://youtube.com/live/MnrSXd4r_JY
 
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in formats like draft, it can be interesting & balanced to only allow certain mons to tera. this would allow us to free Regieleki, Firepon, Terapagos, and maybe 1 or 2 others. but in OU i just think it's kinda unreasonable to ask for a pokemon+tera ban. i think we should just quickban terapagos (and maybe also Deoxys-Speed, needs more time) & then suspect test Tera sometime within the next few months -- if that results in a ban, Terapagos could get a second chance. otherwise there's no use wasting time trying to save the non-stellar Terapagos, imo.

MasterPlayer said:
I know I don't really want to make this a one-liner, but I got a question for you guys: Which of the returning Pokemons do you think got buffed the most in terms of new additions to their movepools? Because for me it's gotta be Dewgong, but I think it's more in terms of raw amount of moves that can have an use competitively, namely Knock Off, Ice Spinner, Flip Turn, Drill Run and Play Rough, the latter 2 actually giving Dewgong more or less perfect coverage over it's weaknesses.
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i think Dewgong is sadly basically irrelevant in OU and will stay that way unless the council goes on crack and unbans Iron Bundle, or something.
in terms of OU viability, i really like :latios: - buffed Luster Purge and Flip Turn are both really nice for it, and the meta is just nice for it considering it kinda switches into Tusk and threatens it out, completely ignores Spikes without boots, still has recover for longetivity, and has wide potential set variety, and unlike many Psychics & Dragons can threaten an OHKO on Gambit, I can see it having a shot at staying OU this gen - i think Pult is still probably the easier mon to fit but Latios has a potential niche, i think :)
 
Gouging fire is amazing man

Tried 2 sets and both of them gave me good success on the ladder, the mon is very versatile and this banded set in particular under sun has taken lives.

Very powerful, versatile but not broken, hope it stays OU for a good while, great mon. All of these sets put in work.

Gouging Fire @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Heat Crash
- Scale Shot
- Earthquake

Gouging Fire @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Raging Fury
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Psychic Fangs

Gouging Fire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Morning Sun
- Burning Bulwark
- Heat Crash
- Earthquake
 
SittinGamer said:
I certainly hope no one is suggesting the big form stays for any amount of time longer than it has to tbh. The correct play is 100% to act now and then, were the policy discussion to go somewhere, revisit in in the future.
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As one of the bigger policy-review discussion advocates for Terapagos: agreed. Get the ‘mon out of here in any way, shape, or form. I don’t want the meta held back for semantics.
 
I dont know what you guys are talking about. Theres no problem with a 600 BST multiscale user who can terastallize to gain 100 more BST and get stab on every move. Theres no issue with an unresisted 120 base power stab that even ursuluna blood moon would be jealous of, and there certainly isnt an issue with the fact that it can boost its speed too.
 
The meta is just out, hasnt even settled and some ppl already argueing about quick banning new stuff.

Hope we can let the meta develop over 1-2 weeks before banning shit. Specially if there is nothing batlantly broken like Regieleki was. Hell stuff obviously broken like Iron Bundle & ChiYu took a bit to ban

1702773820401.png
 
SwaggySammy44 said:
DLC2 has been out for almost a day now, so I'll give some first impressions on some of the new pokemon I've been using.

⭐:squirtle:⭐ Terapagos is pretty fucking good. Absurd bulk, multiscale, and a 120 BP signature move that hits everything is ridiculous, and it's deep movepool makes it super versatile. It usually needs to run rock polish to avoid getting revenge killed, but tera starstorm is such a good move that it doesn't really need to run much other coverage. It's stellar form has a positive match up against basically everything, so it's pretty tough to counter.

:terrakion: Accurate rock stab, cc/eq coverage and excellent speed makes iron boulder a great booster sweeper. It's typing isn't great and it gets bitched by kingambit, but once it gets an SD it can rip teams apart.

:entei: Gouging fire has the perfect stat spread for a dragon dancer and is a big threat once it sets up. Crazy damage output under sun, and great synergy with walking wake. Flare blitz is kinda risky to rely on for its main stab, but it gets morning sun which helps. Probably the best new paradox pokemon.

:raikou: I've had a lot of fun using raging bolt, it's slow but electric sucker punch is great. I've been running sub+cm which takes advantage of it's great bulk. It doesn’t have good coverage, and it's vulnerable to fast dragons that resist thunder clap, but it still fits in quite well in ou.

The only one of these that seems bankable at the moment is terapagos, and only it's stellar form if possible. The meta's pretty chaotic right now (as expected) but I'm enjoying using the new stuff.
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Good to see that :cobalion: is so fake that is doesn't even deserve a mention :P also gouging fire can effectively use heat crash because it is a chonker; weighing in at 1300.7 lbs or 590kg. imo iron crown is pretty ass cuz it's mid overall, but ig u could go with scarf, double dance (pick from agility, cm, or id), and u could also use booster, however, crown has 0 coverage.
 
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