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Hot takes incoming (courtesy of late night musings and dealing with an annoying cold)
S- -> A+
It’s no big deal if it stays where it is but I do still want to at least pose the suggestion, since while it’s of course an incredibly important piece of the tier, it’s also undeniable that it does struggle with some modern trends. Were notably in an era of special offense which Great Tusk is generally poorer into as it gets fewer opportunities to come in and do things. It also isn’t big on the rush of HO which also limits the chances it gets to spin, and several of those structures pressure it hard. It’s still great but I think right now it’s a little less than S-. LandoT also gives it competition as a physical check since its intimidate is more proactive in slowing down certain Pokémon and it’s able to use options like taunt for Glimmora leads.
A+ -> S-
A tad hasty maybe but it’s hard to deny the enormous presence it’s had in the tier as of late with its many dangerous sets that players have continued to innovate. It’s incredibly dominant and one of the best Pokémon flat out.
darkrai over tusk just feels wrong
you have one of the few hazard removers in the entire tier (keep in mind, removal is incredibly important for some threats (some notable ones are non-boots kyurem variants, id zama, ogerpon, primarina (less so here, but still impactful), kingambit, and many more mons that get completely shredded by spikes+rocks)
tusk also can sweep with Bulk Up sets, and is a great check to many physical attackers like gouging fire, gambit, sd gliscor variants (however this is a bit shaky), moon if it teras, although i will concede that lando is generally better for this
tusk is just a massive role compression bot however that lando cant fully replace, namely in the breaking+removal parts
meanwhile darkrai just... is a breaker? darkrai isnt out there enabling entire mons by its ability to click nasty plot and dark pulse, while still getting outsped by crucial mons like zama or pult. don't get me wrong, its an amazing breaker with a lot of sweeping and hax potential and can really do damage if an opening is made for it, but to say it does anywhere near as much as something like tusk just feels wrong
Seconding the above guy. Kanto Zapdos being not an OU Mon anymore opens some space for Galarian one, even though its not a perfect Mon by any means and dies faster than you would like. It also abuses Great Tusk, Ting Lu, Lando (especially Lando) and Clodsire being the common Grounds to freely (well, careful with Tusk) switch into. Gliscor is a pain, but Gapdos can use a Substitute set to abuse it instead of the other Grounds.
Edit: Still waiting either Breloom and the ugly duck being unranked or (this is preferable) the much better Fight Mon in Slither Wing being ranked.
Wing is amazing as a wisp user who isn't weak to the pesky rocks, and has an amazing tusk matchup, better than Moltres I would say, as Moltres can have its boots knocked off, causing it to become weak to the rocks, while Wing doesn't care too much about rocks. Spike stacking is a problem, but luckily Wing synergizes well with Gambit and other dark types who like to take out Dengo (allowing for free hazard removal), due to Wing being able to weaken Tusk substantially, even turning it into setup bait for Gambit in certain situations.
darkrai over tusk just feels wrong
you have one of the few hazard removers in the entire tier (keep in mind, removal is incredibly important for some threats (some notable ones are non-boots kyurem variants, id zama, ogerpon, primarina (less so here, but still impactful), kingambit, and many more mons that get completely shredded by spikes+rocks)
tusk also can sweep with Bulk Up sets, and is a great check to many physical attackers like gouging fire, gambit, sd gliscor variants (however this is a bit shaky), moon if it teras, although i will concede that lando is generally better for this
tusk is just a massive role compression bot however that lando cant fully replace, namely in the breaking+removal parts
meanwhile darkrai just... is a breaker? darkrai isnt out there enabling entire mons by its ability to click nasty plot and dark pulse, while still getting outsped by crucial mons like zama or pult. don't get me wrong, its an amazing breaker with a lot of sweeping and hax potential and can really do damage if an opening is made for it, but to say it does anywhere near as much as something like tusk just feels wrong
Great Tusk is overwhelmed by many common HO structures (special offense) that threaten/pressure it heavily as Moyashi indicated since HO is clearly the best playstyle right now, which limits Tusk's ability to remove hazards, the main reason one decides to slot Great Tusk on his/her team over other Ground-type Pokemon. Given how Zamazenta contributes to a team's defensive backbone much better than Great Tusk and has a much better match-up against HO, Zamazenta and Great Tusk should not be in the same tier viability wise, and A+ feels right for Great Tusk.
Great Tusk is overwhelmed by many common HO structures (special offense) that threaten/pressure it heavily as Moyashi indicated since HO is clearly the best playstyle right now, which limits Tusk's ability to remove hazards, the main reason one decides to slot Great Tusk on his/her team over other Ground-type Pokemon. Given how Zamazenta contributes to a team's defensive backbone much better than Great Tusk and has a much better match-up against HO, Zamazenta and Great Tusk should not be in the same tier viability wise, and A+ feels right for Great Tusk.
Honestly this feels like a meta that plays to Gliscor's strengths moreso than tusk's at the current moment where Gliscor is such an easy mon to pair with Zama for really strong defensive cores, and with Gliscor providing really valuable defensive utility that pairs naturally with Zamazenta and Glowking and can set hazards for them, I think it might be worth swapping Gliscor and Tusk, as I think Gliscor is just a bit better right now.
Tusk is still a great offensive mon, but I feel like tusk is a little harder to fit than Gliscor lately as said, and Gliscor has an easier time standing up to these HO structures thanks to packing natural recovery in poison heal and being a noticably better hit taker than Tusk against these special offenses.
Maybe they should have their VR placements swapped?
Honestly this feels like a meta that plays to Gliscor's strengths moreso than tusk's at the current moment where Gliscor is such an easy mon to pair with Zama for really strong defensive cores, and with Gliscor providing really valuable defensive utility that pairs naturally with Zamazenta and Glowking and can set hazards for them, I think it might be worth swapping Gliscor and Tusk, as I think Gliscor is just a bit better right now.
Tusk is still a great offensive mon, but I feel like tusk is a little harder to fit than Gliscor lately as said, and Gliscor has an easier time standing up to these HO structures thanks to packing natural recovery in poison heal and being a noticably better hit taker than Tusk against these special offenses.
Maybe they should have their VR placements swapped?
I don't think Gliscor is anywhere near its peak in the DLC1 meta. There are a number of big threats that can set up on Gliscor without facing much in the way of repercussions. As such as I believe Gliscor is fine in A+ and doesn't need to rise a subrank.
I don't think Gliscor is anywhere near its peak in the DLC1 meta. There are a number of big threats that can set up on Gliscor without facing much in the way of repercussions. As such as I believe Gliscor is fine in A+ and doesn't need to rise a subrank.
Okidogi has received a bit of attention lately. While it hasn’t done a whole lot in WCOP, it has shown up several times on the higher point on the ladder. Shout outs to naichal0ver or whoever’s alt is this for peaking to the 2000s on ladder with Okidogi. If you decide to post a RMT, spread the word of the Dog, as well as Dragonite4242 A.K.A mathismathin for the kickass RMT featuring Okidogi they got to top 5 with. Thank you for your contributions to Okidogi.
I’ve already voiced how underrated Okidogi about a month ago and it seems like players are catching up.
• The standard Bulk Up set is a threatening wincon that can absorb Tspikes, click Knock, and hardwall one of the best mons in the tier Zamazenta thanks to its exclusive ability Guard Dog preventing it from being Roar’d out.
• It has a solid defensive profile vs other threats like Darkrai, Gambit, Wogre, Rillaboom, Meow, etc.
• Players take Tspike absorbers for granted due to how splashable Gking and other Poisons are on Balance, but for offensive teams that can’t fit it, your options are limited. Clod, Amoonguss, and Pex are passive. Glimm is a lead while Moth has to give up booster to absorb Tspikes. Okidogi offers both offensive and defensive utility in one.
• Outside of Bulk Up, there’s also AoA Assault Vest sets with its more conventional ability Toxic Chain which is busted. Everything that can’t be Toxic’d by Okidogi is either threatened by its STABs or coverage (Knock, Ice Punch). Not only is its matchup into Darkrai even better, but it can now 1v1 key targets like Gholdengo, Primarina, Kyurem, and non-Psyshock Valiant. Tera Grass is excellent on this as you flip your matchup with Grounds while checking Wogre. This set has only gotten better with the uptick of special offense spam that has gone out of control due to Volcarona ban, and while the tier isn’t short of special walls, they can be worn down or straight up beat by these threats in the case of Darkrai vs Glowking. Having that backup sponge that can also threaten big damage to the opposing team is always nice to have.
• Dogi appreciates the increased usage of mons like Darkrai and Zamazenta. Slower Spike Stacking builds that demolish Okidogi aren’t super great rn due to exploitable matchups and rigid team structures.
• The rise of Molt and Zapdos is annoying but none of them like switching into Knock, nor having to take Poison dmg from the potential Toxic Chain.
• Ghold is the best it’s been in a long time for splashability, versatility and threat factor as shown by its astronomical usage in r1 of WCOP. Though it doesn’t like seeing Ghold on team preview, Ghold just so happens to be a great partner with Okidogi, Bulk Up variants with more offensive Ghold builds or vice versa while Okidogi covers Darkrai beautifully.
• It deserves a spot on the VR, cause what is Breloom doing in there when Okidogi has shown to be more viable and versatile. For replays, there’s my post from a month ago along with a RMT, and Dragonite’s RMT. https://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/10108031/ (Dogi post)
While obviously a cornerstone of the SV OU metagame, it’s not on par with Zama/Gking imo. It does amazing things like clear hazards and output big damage, but part of why I’m making this nom is how valuable Lando and Zama are at filling certain holes on a team. Tusk is a Fighter that can’t switch into Darkrai and is a Ground that is bad into Roaring Moon, only sharing that trait with the physically frail Clodsire and the offensive Ursaluna. While it is possible to fit both Tusk and Zama or Lando on the same, it puts you in an awkward spot where you have to cover both their weaknesses with less slots to work with. That being said, Tusk is still dangerous offensively and is the reason why many BOs and Bootsless Balances are able to function in the tier, but I can’t say its on the same pillar as Gambit/Pult/Zama/Gking.
A+ > A
Compared to the other A+ mons, Roaring Moon feels like an outlier. While Moon is still a great breaker that can threaten a sweep, for months I’ve said this mon is overrated. Dnite is the better DD sweeper without question. It has more setup opportunities, higher versatility, and isn’t reliant on Booster. Stopping a R-Moon clean compared to months ago is much easier with the way teams are built these days. Moon is just so one-note. Compare this to Dnite who can be standard DD, Band, Sub-DD, Loaded Dice, Tera Flying, etc. Speaking of which.
A > A+
Dragonite is an old gen success story, a gen 1 mon that has only gotten better as time went on. The earlier SPL and WCOP showed just how fantastic Dnite can be. Dnite has been deviating past the standard variant into more immediately threatening sets like the ones I listed above. Former checks like Corviknight and Zama become setup for Encore DD. Tera Flying Blast can pick off unsuspecting Zamas and Tusks. I’ve even tried Lum Berry variants to punish players fishing for burns. The meta is going back into a more aggressive state while Balance teams still hang around as the runner up, with Dnite’s ability to be both good into offense and exploit bulky teams. Its unpredictable and reliable, I’d argue its better than some of the A+ tiers.
A > A+
Lumping both of these together cause they’re pretty much carrying Balance on their backs rn. Both are similar in providing hazards, excellent all-round bulk, and the best chipping moves in the game Salt Cure/Ruination. These two are also solid Darkrai switch-ins and Ghost resists. Ting-Lu in particular has been running Helmet to 1v1 Tusk, and punish Gambit/Moon. Garg is still an impossible to kill wall that checks half the tier. Curse sets still can 6-0 unprepared teams. Its so good at its job with chipping that it has found spots on more aggressive voltturn or BO teams. The same goes for Ting-Lu but for its ability to check half the tier while vomiting hazards.
A- > A
Going echo Finch’s words. Cinderace Offense teams have seen a ton of play in WCOP, not just for Court Change but for its surprisingly dangerous offensive profile. Anything that’s not Mola, Gliscor, or Dirge gets chipped by Pyro + U-Turn. By far one of the big enablers for wallbreakers like Kyurem, Wogre, and Specs R-Bolt.
A- > B+
Hot take incoming, Dozo is not A tier material and is super exploitable. If you think about it, most of the common physical attackers Dozo is meant to check can punish it in some fashion. Gambit? Tera Dark Black Glasses. Gliscor, Roaring Moon, SD Val, Samurott, Weavile? Knock Off + Hazards. Dragonite? Encore. Ogerpon, Rillaboom? Just hit it with your Grass move. Cinderace? U-Turn into one of 50 different mons that make its life absolutely miserable. That’s the other thing. It loathes Darkrai who gives it Bad Dreams whenever Donbozo decides to Rest which is often. You’re often forced into running Body Press or B-Swipe G-Fire and Wogre will rock your world. 2-Attacks Dozo is too passive so you’re often left with one attacking slot. Even if the team is in need of a physically bulky water, we have Alomomola who’s less passive and less exploitable thanks to Regenerator + Flip Turn.
A- > B+
Dirge has been in A- since the DLC2 and not once has it ever felt A- during it. An exploitable base typing and a massive Tera hog. Its a Fairy resist that loses to the most common Fairies. Skeledirge doesn’t like the increased usage of Darkrai, Glimmora, and Garganacl. Players have gotten better at exploiting/forcing Teras to create even better situations for themselves, like pairing Ogerpon with Gholdengo. While it has favorable matchups into Pokemon like Cinderace, Zamazenta, Crown, and some variants of Dnite, I think it’s time to finally put the croc down a peg.
B+ > A-
I’d argue Grasspon is the single best non-OU poke in the tier. Its garnered results that are of an OU-calibur. Terastilized Grasspon is the 2nd fastest Encore user in OU only behind Booster Valiant who only gets +1 speed once while Tera Pon’s boost is permanent. Grasspon revels in the faster paced landscape OU found itself in, with over 90 teams being offensively-oriented, Grasspon has no trouble clicking buttons and punishing setup with Encore. Being one of the few decent switch-ins to Wogre is another notable feat. Even in bad matchups like Gouging Fire or Corviknight, Grasspon can Knock or pivot out of those matchups easily.
B+ > B
Mola + Luna Balances are hard to pilot in this metagame. While it often gets one kill upon entry, I find its drawbacks and the amount of support it requires to be too high maintenance. I’d argue it’s more on par with Hoopa-U, but Hoopa is more consistent into other matchups due to its defensive profile.
B > B-
I’m not as harsh towards Blaziken as I was in the past but it’s still not deserving of this rank. A load of issues like fragility, 4MSS, and an awful speed tier but it’s not bad. +2 Tera Fighting Close Combat cooks fat walls like Mola and Tusk and its got early-to-mid game utility with Knock.
B > B-
Sand appeared 4 times this WCOP and it underperformed. The HO teams Sand is meant to counter with Drill’s Sand Rush have several roadblocks for it like Zama, Tusk, Ogerpon, Sucker Punch Gambit and even Lando. Sand teams are often put into rigid structures that leave them vulnerable to certain matchups like Cinder + Wogre or SD Gliscor.
B > C+
I love Hydrapple, but it’s not B material. Very weak to the common Ice and Fairy moves flying in the tier.
B > B-
Cheese matchup fishes that get clapped by Encore.
B- > B
Checks Ghold and Darkrai while breaking Balance. Both Ursaluna and Hoopa should be grouped together imo.
B- > B+
Gonna just repeat what everyone else is saying. It matches up well into Wogre/Zama/Tusk while being annoying to switch into itself. It has some inconsistencies vs Wogre/Zama + Ghold, but I think the specific niche it holds is worth rising.
B- > B+
Skyrocket this li’l creature to B+. One of the best Darkrai checks in the tier, a bulky Steel with Knock and Rocks. Encore is a godsend for a mon with a great defensive typing and solid 94 speed tier. Tinkaton has seen a handful of usage in WCOP and high ladder. Mold Breaker sets are unexplored and pivotal for being able to T-Wave Ghold/Garg while always clicking rocks.
C+ > B-/ B > C+
Imo these two should switch places. Venusaur benefits Sun more than Lilligant does. It helps with 2 matchups that give Sun trouble, Glimmora and Primarina, absorbing the former’s Tspikes and switching into/threatening the latter. +2 Venusaur is a danger for teams to switch into, especially if Glowking is forced to Tera by Walking Wake. It also still performs the speed control role Lilligant does despite a worse speed tier. Venu doesn’t really need Timid since its matchup into Booster Val is already excellent and Boulder almost never sees play these days. Lilligant still packs Encore and Healing Wish tho.
C > C+
Hands has good matchups into Darkrai, Kingambit, and non-EQ Moon while being a potent wallbreaker that can be enabled further by Screens or Grassy Terrain. It has potential but no one found the most optimal set yet. Mamoswine is a kickass Assault Vest user that can switch into Kyurem or Raging Bolt and trade vs HO while offering priority Ice Shard. Pecharunt is a neat alternative to Ghold/Sinistcha that can spread poison and pivot. It’s seen usage on WCOP along with several anti-Gambit measures.
So now to address the D ranks determining who stays and who drowns, as well as some URs discussed on the thread in this slate.
-> UR
Head Smash is meaty and E-Speed is nice, but it suffers from having a bunch of weaknesses, including rocks. It’s not worth the spicy calcs unfortunately.
-> C
Rain is still viable and Basculegion can function as a second Barraskewda that blocks spin.
-> UR
This thing is hot ass. Not gonna beat around the bush. You only use this for Technician Mach Punch and that backfires once Gambit decides to use its Tera.
-> UR
Pressure and the utility it brings is nice, but that typing sucks. Its niche can be circumvented by other more consistent pokes like Gliscor.
-> C
Steel/Dragon is goated and it checks some key pokes. Very reliant Wish/Grassy Terrain support though and has a 4MSS.
-> UR
The 8 Ground types in the tier do what Hippo does but better while being much less passive.
-> UR
I don’t get why this was ranked. Darkrai exists, the tier isn’t short of specially oriented Dragon type breakers, and gets shit on by Primarina which none of the other special breakers Hydreigon competes with struggle at breaking as much. We even have Latios as a strong ground immune wallbreaker.
-> C
Mostly outclassed by Darkrai, but has Flying STAB to hit Zama, as well as being able to shut down Ting-Lu with Taunt + its Ground immunity. Its alright.
-> UR
Mid ahh dragon. Overly outclassed by other sweepers
-> C
He just got ranked, keep him safe and comforted.
-> UR
This thing’s niche is checking Primarina but Toxapex does the same without being free turns for Wogre.
-> C
Keep the stall goat here or stallcord wages war on us.
-> C
Encore and Healing Wish are all appreciated by Sun teams.
-> C
E-Terrain sucks but it’s at least usable.
-> UR
Funny but sadly heavily outclassed by Kyurem and Darkrai.
-> C
It has a solid defensive typing into Gambit, Darkrai, and Samu. Can threaten to snowball while offering utility with Encore and Rapid Spin.
-> C
Checks Darkrai, pivots and can spread burns or para. The cool thing is it switches into Tusk and doesn’t mind eating a Knock Off.
-> C
Another stall goat we must preserve.
-> C
Volt Absorb Tera Fairy is kinda dope. Rank the other Thundurus as well.
-> C+
I used this while testing a team with it, and Wo-Chien is kinda heat. Ruination like with Ting-Lu is fantastic at forcing progress along with Leech Seed. It’s also not a bad check into Wogre, Samu, Tusk, Dnite, etc. Also a great defensive Tera user. Pairs well with defensive staples like Garg and Mola.
-> C
Exploits increased Lando usage. Choice Band Gapdos is an absolute nuke and has Knock now to punish Zapdos/Gholdengo switch-ins. 100 speed is a good benchmark for a breaker, outpacing base 90s like G-Fire and Kyurem. Gapdos can also sit on most Grounds with Sub and start clicking Bulk Up.
-> C
I’ve used a bit of Zarude and it’s honestly not that bad. 1v1s utility Gliscor and has access to Encore. It’s pretty much a worse Grasspon but with STAB Knock Off and a Ghost resistance.
Mola + Luna Balances are hard to pilot in this metagame. While it often gets one kill upon entry, I find its drawbacks and the amount of support it requires to be too high maintenance. I’d argue it’s more on par with Hoopa-U, but Hoopa is more consistent into other matchups due to its defensive profile.
I disagree with this nom. Ursaluna is actually a lot more flexible then Hoopa, tbf.
Sure monaluna balance is really only "okay" right now since balance in general has a hard time. Thing is ,Luna fits on much more teams then Hoopa-U. Besides balance, Luna actually fits on more offensive structures.
We all know HO is on top right now(honestly, it always has been. not sure why it took WCup for us to realize this, has been consistent for a good while but that is not the point of the post right now.)
Besides trick room teams which are admittely a little gimmicky, in this HO filled meta semi-trick room has a lot of potential. With so many mons reaching speed levels previously unheard of through boosting or just being naturally fast, semi-trick room can turn this upside down and luna is the perfect mon to abuse this, with his bulk and power. Luna doesn't even have to set-up, since he hits so hard most teams crumble just by attacking. Lando, Glis or Corv are usually the defensive answer to this and if they get weak fighting this moster, the likes of Gambit or Bolt can sweep. The best part is, Luna can be good against various playstyles from fat to even offensive teams with the semi trick room support.
I also dont understand how Hoopa has a better defensive profile than Luna. Hoopa crumbles to a sneeze against a u-turner or a even any decently strong physical attack, really. Luna can take hits very well as long as they are not super effective. + Taking on most variants of Pult, Slowking and never having to fear status like burn or para while not crumbling to powerful priority like sucker punch or e-speed has to count for something.
Here are some replays as an example for semi trickroom team. Obviously it can be hard to pilot but reward is well worth it.
Also Lunas tera type feels a lot more flexible than Hoopas, who kinda HAS to run stuff like Tera fighting or poison so it wont get goobsmacked by gambit+ u-tuner whereas Luna can run shit like water, fairy, normal ,ghost, steel,dragon very viably(pls don't make me explain why these tera types are good on luna, it should be obvious why)
Besides that, Luna also fits on screen teams. Problem with Luna only taking one mon? Well with his bulk, power and screens setup, he can take more than one mon while not even having to waste time setting up since he hits so damm hard and can soften things for other sweepers too.
Sure, not going to deny that he needs support but once you give it to Luna, the reward is much better than for the for Hoopa. This mon really shouldnt be in the same rank with the likes of Lucha who only fits on one specific team type.
I disagree with this nom. Ursaluna is actually a lot more flexible then Hoopa, tbf.
Sure monaluna balance is really only "okay" right now since balance in general has a hard time. Thing is ,Luna fits on much more teams then Hoopa-U. Besides balance, Luna actually fits on more offensive structures.
We all know HO is on top right now(honestly, it always has been. not sure why it took WCup for us to realize this, has been consistent for a good while but that is not the point of the post right now.)
Besides trick room teams which are admittely a little gimmicky, in this HO filled meta semi-trick room has a lot of potential. With so many mons reaching speed levels previously unheard of through boosting or just being naturally fast, semi-trick room can turn this upside down and luna is the perfect mon to abuse this, with his bulk and power. Luna doesn't even have to set-up, since he hits so hard most teams crumble just by attacking. Lando, Glis or Corv are usually the defensive answer to this and if they get weak fighting this moster, the likes of Gambit or Bolt can sweep. The best part is, Luna can be good against various playstyles from fat to even offensive teams with the semi trick room support.
I also dont understand how Hoopa has a better defensive profile than Luna. Hoopa crumbles to a sneeze against a u-turner or a even any decently strong physical attack, really. Luna can take hits very well as long as they are not super effective. + Taking on most variants of Pult, Slowking and never having to fear status like burn or para while not crumbling to powerful priority like sucker punch or e-speed has to count for something.
Here are some replays as an example for semi trickroom team. Obviously it can be hard to pilot but reward is well worth it.
Also Lunas tera type feels a lot more flexible than Hoopas, who kinda HAS to run stuff like Tera fighting or poison so it wont get goobsmacked by gambit+ u-tuner whereas Luna can run shit like water, fairy, normal ,ghost, steel,dragon very viably(pls don't make me explain why these tera types are good on luna, it should be obvious why)
Besides that, Luna also fits on screen teams. Problem with Luna only taking one mon? Well with his bulk, power and screens setup, he can take more than one mon while not even having to waste time setting up since he hits so damm hard and can soften things for other sweepers too.
Sure, not going to deny that he needs support but once you give it to Luna, the reward is much better than for the for Hoopa. This mon really shouldnt be in the same rank with the likes of Lucha who only fits on one specific team type.
Yeah, seconded. Ursaluna has no business being in the same subrank as Hoopa-Unbound as Ursaluna is a much more powerful breaker and doesn't take enormous damage from any attack-invested physical attack backed by STAB or U-Turn. Unlike Psychic/Dark, Ursaluna also has some defensive upside with it being immune to Ghost and Electric-type moves and also resisting Stealth Rock.
Okidogi has received a bit of attention lately. While it hasn’t done a whole lot in WCOP, it has shown up several times on the higher point on the ladder. Shout outs to naichal0ver or whoever’s alt is this for peaking to the 2000s on ladder with Okidogi. If you decide to post a RMT, spread the word of the Dog, as well as Dragonite4242 A.K.A mathismathin for the kickass RMT featuring Okidogi they got to top 5 with. Thank you for your contributions to Okidogi.
I’ve already voiced how underrated Okidogi about a month ago and it seems like players are catching up.
• The standard Bulk Up set is a threatening wincon that can absorb Tspikes, click Knock, and hardwall one of the best mons in the tier Zamazenta thanks to its exclusive ability Guard Dog preventing it from being Roar’d out.
• It has a solid defensive profile vs other threats like Darkrai, Gambit, Wogre, Rillaboom, Meow, etc.
• Players take Tspike absorbers for granted due to how splashable Gking and other Poisons are on Balance, but for offensive teams that can’t fit it, your options are limited. Clod, Amoonguss, and Pex are passive. Glimm is a lead while Moth has to give up booster to absorb Tspikes. Okidogi offers both offensive and defensive utility in one.
• Outside of Bulk Up, there’s also AoA Assault Vest sets with its more conventional ability Toxic Chain which is busted. Everything that can’t be Toxic’d by Okidogi is either threatened by its STABs or coverage (Knock, Ice Punch). Not only is its matchup into Darkrai even better, but it can now 1v1 key targets like Gholdengo, Primarina, Kyurem, and non-Psyshock Valiant. Tera Grass is excellent on this as you flip your matchup with Grounds while checking Wogre. This set has only gotten better with the uptick of special offense spam that has gone out of control due to Volcarona ban, and while the tier isn’t short of special walls, they can be worn down or straight up beat by these threats in the case of Darkrai vs Glowking. Having that backup sponge that can also threaten big damage to the opposing team is always nice to have.
• Dogi appreciates the increased usage of mons like Darkrai and Zamazenta. Slower Spike Stacking builds that demolish Okidogi aren’t super great rn due to exploitable matchups and rigid team structures.
• The rise of Molt and Zapdos is annoying but none of them like switching into Knock, nor having to take Poison dmg from the potential Toxic Chain.
• Ghold is the best it’s been in a long time for splashability, versatility and threat factor as shown by its astronomical usage in r1 of WCOP. Though it doesn’t like seeing Ghold on team preview, Ghold just so happens to be a great partner with Okidogi, Bulk Up variants with more offensive Ghold builds or vice versa while Okidogi covers Darkrai beautifully.
• It deserves a spot on the VR, cause what is Breloom doing in there when Okidogi has shown to be more viable and versatile. For replays, there’s my post from a month ago along with a RMT, and Dragonite’s RMT. https://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/10108031/ (Dogi post)
While obviously a cornerstone of the SV OU metagame, it’s not on par with Zama/Gking imo. It does amazing things like clear hazards and output big damage, but part of why I’m making this nom is how valuable Lando and Zama are at filling certain holes on a team. Tusk is a Fighter that can’t switch into Darkrai and is a Ground that is bad into Roaring Moon, only sharing that trait with the physically frail Clodsire and the offensive Ursaluna. While it is possible to fit both Tusk and Zama or Lando on the same, it puts you in an awkward spot where you have to cover both their weaknesses with less slots to work with. That being said, Tusk is still dangerous offensively and is the reason why many BOs and Bootsless Balances are able to function in the tier, but I can’t say its on the same pillar as Gambit/Pult/Zama/Gking.
A+ > A
Compared to the other A+ mons, Roaring Moon feels like an outlier. While Moon is still a great breaker that can threaten a sweep, for months I’ve said this mon is overrated. Dnite is the better DD sweeper without question. It has more setup opportunities, higher versatility, and isn’t reliant on Booster. Stopping a R-Moon clean compared to months ago is much easier with the way teams are built these days. Moon is just so one-note. Compare this to Dnite who can be standard DD, Band, Sub-DD, Loaded Dice, Tera Flying, etc. Speaking of which.
A > A+
Dragonite is an old gen success story, a gen 1 mon that has only gotten better as time went on. The earlier SPL and WCOP showed just how fantastic Dnite can be. Dnite has been deviating past the standard variant into more immediately threatening sets like the ones I listed above. Former checks like Corviknight and Zama become setup for Encore DD. Tera Flying Blast can pick off unsuspecting Zamas and Tusks. I’ve even tried Lum Berry variants to punish players fishing for burns. The meta is going back into a more aggressive state while Balance teams still hang around as the runner up, with Dnite’s ability to be both good into offense and exploit bulky teams. Its unpredictable and reliable, I’d argue its better than some of the A+ tiers.
A > A+
Lumping both of these together cause they’re pretty much carrying Balance on their backs rn. Both are similar in providing hazards, excellent all-round bulk, and the best chipping moves in the game Salt Cure/Ruination. These two are also solid Darkrai switch-ins and Ghost resists. Ting-Lu in particular has been running Helmet to 1v1 Tusk, and punish Gambit/Moon. Garg is still an impossible to kill wall that checks half the tier. Curse sets still can 6-0 unprepared teams. Its so good at its job with chipping that it has found spots on more aggressive voltturn or BO teams. The same goes for Ting-Lu but for its ability to check half the tier while vomiting hazards.
A- > A
Going echo Finch’s words. Cinderace Offense teams have seen a ton of play in WCOP, not just for Court Change but for its surprisingly dangerous offensive profile. Anything that’s not Mola, Gliscor, or Dirge gets chipped by Pyro + U-Turn. By far one of the big enablers for wallbreakers like Kyurem, Wogre, and Specs R-Bolt.
A- > B+
Hot take incoming, Dozo is not A tier material and is super exploitable. If you think about it, most of the common physical attackers Dozo is meant to check can punish it in some fashion. Gambit? Tera Dark Black Glasses. Gliscor, Roaring Moon, SD Val, Samurott, Weavile? Knock Off + Hazards. Dragonite? Encore. Ogerpon, Rillaboom? Just hit it with your Grass move. Cinderace? U-Turn into one of 50 different mons that make its life absolutely miserable. That’s the other thing. It loathes Darkrai who gives it Bad Dreams whenever Donbozo decides to Rest which is often. You’re often forced into running Body Press or B-Swipe G-Fire and Wogre will rock your world. 2-Attacks Dozo is too passive so you’re often left with one attacking slot. Even if the team is in need of a physically bulky water, we have Alomomola who’s less passive and less exploitable thanks to Regenerator + Flip Turn.
A- > B+
Dirge has been in A- since the DLC2 and not once has it ever felt A- during it. An exploitable base typing and a massive Tera hog. Its a Fairy resist that loses to the most common Fairies. Skeledirge doesn’t like the increased usage of Darkrai, Glimmora, and Garganacl. Players have gotten better at exploiting/forcing Teras to create even better situations for themselves, like pairing Ogerpon with Gholdengo. While it has favorable matchups into Pokemon like Cinderace, Zamazenta, Crown, and some variants of Dnite, I think it’s time to finally put the croc down a peg.
B+ > A-
I’d argue Grasspon is the single best non-OU poke in the tier. Its garnered results that are of an OU-calibur. Terastilized Grasspon is the 2nd fastest Encore user in OU only behind Booster Valiant who only gets +1 speed once while Tera Pon’s boost is permanent. Grasspon revels in the faster paced landscape OU found itself in, with over 90 teams being offensively-oriented, Grasspon has no trouble clicking buttons and punishing setup with Encore. Being one of the few decent switch-ins to Wogre is another notable feat. Even in bad matchups like Gouging Fire or Corviknight, Grasspon can Knock or pivot out of those matchups easily.
B+ > B
Mola + Luna Balances are hard to pilot in this metagame. While it often gets one kill upon entry, I find its drawbacks and the amount of support it requires to be too high maintenance. I’d argue it’s more on par with Hoopa-U, but Hoopa is more consistent into other matchups due to its defensive profile.
B > B-
I’m not as harsh towards Blaziken as I was in the past but it’s still not deserving of this rank. A load of issues like fragility, 4MSS, and an awful speed tier but it’s not bad. +2 Tera Fighting Close Combat cooks fat walls like Mola and Tusk and its got early-to-mid game utility with Knock.
B > B-
Sand appeared 4 times this WCOP and it underperformed. The HO teams Sand is meant to counter with Drill’s Sand Rush have several roadblocks for it like Zama, Tusk, Ogerpon, Sucker Punch Gambit and even Lando. Sand teams are often put into rigid structures that leave them vulnerable to certain matchups like Cinder + Wogre or SD Gliscor.
B > C+
I love Hydrapple, but it’s not B material. Very weak to the common Ice and Fairy moves flying in the tier.
B > B-
Cheese matchup fishes that get clapped by Encore.
B- > B
Checks Ghold and Darkrai while breaking Balance. Both Ursaluna and Hoopa should be grouped together imo.
B- > B+
Gonna just repeat what everyone else is saying. It matches up well into Wogre/Zama/Tusk while being annoying to switch into itself. It has some inconsistencies vs Wogre/Zama + Ghold, but I think the specific niche it holds is worth rising.
B- > B+
Skyrocket this li’l creature to B+. One of the best Darkrai checks in the tier, a bulky Steel with Knock and Rocks. Encore is a godsend for a mon with a great defensive typing and solid 94 speed tier. Tinkaton has seen a handful of usage in WCOP and high ladder. Mold Breaker sets are unexplored and pivotal for being able to T-Wave Ghold/Garg while always clicking rocks.
C+ > B-/ B > C+
Imo these two should switch places. Venusaur benefits Sun more than Lilligant does. It helps with 2 matchups that give Sun trouble, Glimmora and Primarina, absorbing the former’s Tspikes and switching into/threatening the latter. +2 Venusaur is a danger for teams to switch into, especially if Glowking is forced to Tera by Walking Wake. It also still performs the speed control role Lilligant does despite a worse speed tier. Venu doesn’t really need Timid since its matchup into Booster Val is already excellent and Boulder almost never sees play these days. Lilligant still packs Encore and Healing Wish tho.
C > C+
Hands has good matchups into Darkrai, Kingambit, and non-EQ Moon while being a potent wallbreaker that can be enabled further by Screens or Grassy Terrain. It has potential but no one found the most optimal set yet. Mamoswine is a kickass Assault Vest user that can switch into Kyurem or Raging Bolt and trade vs HO while offering priority Ice Shard. Pecharunt is a neat alternative to Ghold/Sinistcha that can spread poison and pivot. It’s seen usage on WCOP along with several anti-Gambit measures.
So now to address the D ranks determining who stays and who drowns, as well as some URs discussed on the thread in this slate.
View attachment 643143-> UR
Head Smash is meaty and E-Speed is nice, but it suffers from having a bunch of weaknesses, including rocks. It’s not worth the spicy calcs unfortunately.
View attachment 643144-> C
Rain is still viable and Basculegion can function as a second Barraskewda that blocks spin.
View attachment 643145-> UR
This thing is hot ass. Not gonna beat around the bush. You only use this for Technician Mach Punch and that backfires once Gambit decides to use its Tera.
View attachment 643146-> UR
Pressure and the utility it brings is nice, but that typing sucks. Its niche can be circumvented by other more consistent pokes like Gliscor.
View attachment 643147-> C
Steel/Dragon is goated and it checks some key pokes. Very reliant Wish/Grassy Terrain support though and has a 4MSS.
View attachment 643148-> UR
The 8 Ground types in the tier do what Hippo does but better while being much less passive.
View attachment 643149-> UR
I don’t get why this was ranked. Darkrai exists, the tier isn’t short of specially oriented Dragon type breakers, and gets shit on by Primarina which none of the other special breakers Hydreigon competes with struggle at breaking as much. We even have Latios as a strong ground immune wallbreaker.
View attachment 643150-> C
Mostly outclassed by Darkrai, but has Flying STAB to hit Zama, as well as being able to shut down Ting-Lu with Taunt + its Ground immunity. Its alright.
View attachment 643159-> C
It has a solid defensive typing into Gambit, Darkrai, and Samu. Can threaten to snowball while offering utility with Encore and Rapid Spin.
View attachment 643160-> C
Checks Darkrai, pivots and can spread burns or para. The cool thing is it switches into Tusk and doesn’t mind eating a Knock Off.
View attachment 643162-> C
Volt Absorb Tera Fairy is kinda dope. Rank the other Thundurus as well.
View attachment 643163-> C+
I used this while testing a team with it, and Wo-Chien is kinda heat. Ruination like with Ting-Lu is fantastic at forcing progress along with Leech Seed. It’s also not a bad check into Wogre, Samu, Tusk, Dnite, etc. Also a great defensive Tera user. Pairs well with defensive staples like Garg and Mola.
View attachment 643164-> C
Exploits increased Lando usage. Choice Band Gapdos is an absolute nuke and has Knock now to punish Zapdos/Gholdengo switch-ins. 100 speed is a good benchmark for a breaker, outpacing base 90s like G-Fire and Kyurem. Gapdos can also sit on most Grounds with Sub and start clicking Bulk Up.
View attachment 643165-> C
I’ve used a bit of Zarude and it’s honestly not that bad. 1v1s utility Gliscor and has access to Encore. It’s pretty much a worse Grasspon but with STAB Knock Off and a Ghost resistance.
Hot take incoming, Dozo is not A tier material and is super exploitable. If you think about it, most of the common physical attackers Dozo is meant to check can punish it in some fashion. Gambit? Tera Dark Black Glasses. Gliscor, Roaring Moon, SD Val, Samurott, Weavile? Knock Off + Hazards. Dragonite? Encore. Ogerpon, Rillaboom? Just hit it with your Grass move. Cinderace? U-Turn into one of 50 different mons that make its life absolutely miserable. That’s the other thing. It loathes Darkrai who gives it Bad Dreams whenever Donbozo decides to Rest which is often. You’re often forced into running Body Press or B-Swipe G-Fire and Wogre will rock your world. 2-Attacks Dozo is too passive so you’re often left with one attacking slot. Even if the team is in need of a physically bulky water, we have Alomomola who’s less passive and less exploitable thanks to Regenerator + Flip Turn.
Great post. I agree with all of these except for Dondozo. I bring Dozo balance regularly into the 1800s so I feel obliged to defend this mon as an A- staple. We’re in a meta with an immense number of physical setup sweepers: ID Zama (stronger than ever nowadays), Dragonite, Roaring Moon, Kingambit, Bulk Up Tusk, and SD Gliscor just to name a few. Having a mon that can reliably come in and counter all of these is a godsend for bulkier teams. While it’s true that Dozo has explotable weaknesses such as succeptability to hazards, we still have 5 other teamslots to make up for these shortcomings and take advantage of its defensive strengths. The sheer amount of pressure that Dozo relieves in the builder more than makes up for its weaknesses and frees up other teamslots for removal support.
Outside of stall, the best set that can put in work on balance is Physdef RestTalk with Body Press, Avalanche, and Rocky Helmet. The trick is to combo this with Tera Fighting. Tera Fighting Body Press nets a surprise OHKO on Darkrai (I’ve won several games this way) and 2HKOs Waterpon. You also reliably deal with Black Glasses Gambit. Avalanche is the coverage move of choice to reliably 2HKO Dragonite (so you don’t care about Encore shenanigans), Roaring Moon, and SD Gliscor. Having a mon that can reliably deal with these deadly sweepers (plus ID Zama) at any time is a godsend. You also deal a clean 35% chip to Dragapult on the switch-in, which puts it in range of a kill by teammates like Ice Beam Glowking.
Finally, Rocky Helmet greatly reduces Dondozo’s passivity to punish U Turn pivots like Cinderace and forces valuable chip on Zama and Gambit in the early game. Between Helmet chip and Body Press you also beat Breaking Swipes Gouging Fire. Another useful perk is that Hamurott always dies to a Body Press and two rounds of Rocky Helmet Chip. This means that if you lead Dozo against your oppnents’ Hamurott, they can only ever get one layer of spikes up from Ceaseless Edge.
The hazards weakness is notable, but I want to reiterate how the pressure that Dondozo relieves in the builder opens up teamslots to provide removal support. Cinderace provides excellent hazards control while Rillaboom can complete the Fire-Water-Grass core and give Dozo some passive recovery to boot. We’ve generally seen a meta shift from bulky HStack teams to more HO oriented HStack with Hamurott/Glimmora/Treads. This makes it easier for Dozo to thrive since partners like Ace can address the hazards scene more easily.
Great post. I agree with all of these except for Dondozo. I bring Dozo balance regularly into the 1800s so I feel obliged to defend this mon as an A- staple. We’re in a meta with an immense number of physical setup sweepers: ID Zama (stronger than ever nowadays), Dragonite, Roaring Moon, Kingambit, Bulk Up Tusk, and SD Gliscor just to name a few. Having a mon that can reliably come in and counter all of these is a godsend for bulkier teams. While it’s true that Dozo has explotable weaknesses such as succeptability to hazards, we still have 5 other teamslots to make up for these shortcomings and take advantage of its defensive strengths. The sheer amount of pressure that Dozo relieves in the builder more than makes up for its weaknesses and frees up other teamslots for removal support.
Outside of stall, the best set that can put in work on balance is Physdef RestTalk with Body Press, Avalanche, and Rocky Helmet. The trick is to combo this with Tera Fighting. Tera Fighting Body Press nets a surprise OHKO on Darkrai (I’ve won several games this way) and 2HKOs Waterpon. You also reliably deal with Black Glasses Gambit. Avalanche is the coverage move of choice to reliably 2HKO Dragonite (so you don’t care about Encore shenanigans), Roaring Moon, and SD Gliscor. Having a mon that can reliably deal with these deadly sweepers (plus ID Zama) at any time is a godsend. You also deal a clean 35% chip to Dragapult on the switch-in, which puts it in range of a kill by teammates like Ice Beam Glowking.
Finally, Rocky Helmet greatly reduces Dondozo’s passivity to punish U Turn pivots like Cinderace and forces valuable chip on Zama and Gambit in the early game. Between Helmet chip and Body Press you also beat Breaking Swipes Gouging Fire. Another useful perk is that Hamurott always dies to a Body Press and two rounds of Rocky Helmet Chip. This means that if you lead Dozo against your oppnents’ Hamurott, they can only ever get one layer of spikes up from Ceaseless Edge.
The hazards weakness is notable, but I want to reiterate how the pressure that Dondozo relieves in the builder opens up teamslots to provide removal support. Cinderace provides excellent hazards control while Rillaboom can complete the Fire-Water-Grass core and give Dozo some passive recovery to boot. We’ve generally seen a meta shift from bulky HStack teams to more HO oriented HStack with Hamurott/Glimmora/Treads. This makes it easier for Dozo to thrive since partners like Ace can address the hazards scene more easily.
Don really isn’t an A- staple and has been falling out of that place for a while now. It doesn’t really relieve as much pressure as one would want because many physical attackers have ways of exploiting it. Its dependence on Rest is a big reason why it’s easy to take advantage of, and said dependence also limits move choices which makes it a very inflexible Pokémon. Greninja talked about why physical attackers can mess with it making it less reliable so I won’t reiterate.
the rocky helmet set you talk about still doesn’t solve the longevity issue and in fact makes it worse. At least leftovers sets could stall with protect for extra turns, but helmet leaves it with no innate recovery and causes it to be vulnerable to being forced into resting often. Cinderace alone cannot cover hazards by itself for a Don team, that simply isn’t realistic and the aggressive HO teams we’re seeing are able to overwhelm Don. Not to mention that right now the tier has a greater emphasis on special type offense which Don just isn’t good against.
It still has its place on stall, but it’s not something I agree is worth slapping on Balance (especially when other waters exist and offer more). I agree with the prior comments on it and think it swerves to drop to B+. It’s been slipping in both ladder play and tourney play as of late so it doesn’t feel appropriate to keep it at -A anymore.
Don really isn’t an A- staple and has been falling out of that place for a while now. It doesn’t really relieve as much pressure as one would want because many physical attackers have ways of exploiting it. Its dependence on Rest is a big reason why it’s easy to take advantage of, and said dependence also limits move choices which makes it a very inflexible Pokémon. Greninja talked about why physical attackers can mess with it making it less reliable so I won’t reiterate.
the rocky helmet set you talk about still doesn’t solve the longevity issue and in fact makes it worse. At least leftovers sets could stall with protect for extra turns, but helmet leaves it with no innate recovery and causes it to be vulnerable to being forced into resting often. Cinderace alone cannot cover hazards by itself for a Don team, that simply isn’t realistic and the aggressive HO teams we’re seeing are able to overwhelm Don. Not to mention that right now the tier has a greater emphasis on special type offense which Don just isn’t good against.
It still has its place on stall, but it’s not something I agree is worth slapping on Balance (especially when other waters exist and offer more). I agree with the prior comments on it and think it swerves to drop to B+. It’s been slipping in both ladder play and tourney play as of late so it doesn’t feel appropriate to keep it at -A anymore.
Blaziken B -> C/D every mon in C+ tier is doing better than blaziken and most C tier too (gmolt, hands, indeedee for example)
Iron Moth and Enamorus A- ->A both mons can sweep in some situations in the same way dnite, ival and gfire can which are ranked A and none of A- mons can really do that
Blaziken B -> C/D every mon in C+ tier is doing better than blaziken and most C tier too (gmolt, hands, indeedee for example)
Iron Moth and Enamorus A- ->A both mons can sweep in some situations in the same way dnite, ival and gfire can which are ranked A and none of A- mons can really do that
Blaziken should def drop as I alluded to a while ago, but this is pretty harsh. People rate it so low because they try to use Blaziken as a sweeper rather than a breaker, and as a breaker, Blaziken is not bad.
Blaziken’s burn immunity and typing gives it several opportunities to click SD on notable Pokemon like Kingambit, Darkrai, Wisp Cinder, Grasspon, and non-T-Wave Ghold.
I ran this set a while back which OHKOs defensive behemoths like Alomomola, Tusk, and Tera Water Garg with a +2 Tera Fighting Close Combat.
Blaziken @ Black Belt
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Flare Blitz/Knock Off
- Protect/Knock Off/Upper Hand
+2 252+ Atk Black Belt Tera Fighting Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 540-636 (101.1 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Belt Tera Fighting Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Garganacl: 390-460 (96.5 - 113.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Black Belt Tera Fighting Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Primarina: 285-336 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+4 252+ Atk Black Belt Tera Fighting Blaziken Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor: 301-355 (85.5 - 100.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Black Belt Tera Fighting Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 214-252 (42.4 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Black Belt Tera Fighting Blaziken Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 243-286 (52.4 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It can also Knock its main check Dnite, leaving them vulnerable to a boosted hit later.
+2 252+ Atk Black Belt Blaziken Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 253-298 (78.3 - 92.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (after getting hit with Knock)
(Not the most optimal Stall team, but Blaziken puts in insane work, 2HKOing Quagsire easily and me getting the sickiest Tera read on Quacc with +3 Knock.)
(Blaziken straight up wipes out Garganacl without Tera since it’s not max physD. While it didn’t do anything else before dying, it opened up a sweep with my Roaring Moon.)
TL;DR: I think it should drop, but not out of the B ranks.
As for Moth and Enamorus. I think they’re fine where they are. Both of them are very vulnerable to rocks and while they have generated success, nothing changed substantially to warrant a rise. Scarf Enam sets are solid for offensive utility and Tera Steel Sub-CM can rip Balance teams over-reliant on Slowking or Garg to check it, but I find Enam having to compete with over special breakers like Kyurem or Darkrai.
Valiant loves a meta without Volc since it can spam its mixed sets more readily. Common switch-ins like Glowking and Ghold hate taking a Knock. Valiant also loves the increased use of Darkrai to pressure its checks and overload opposing special tanks. Deserving of a rise IMO.
I think sun is pretty bad right now, the rise of raging bolt BO/Balance, Toxic Spikes, Iron Moth and Garganacl, it is way too easy to counter sun since they stack weakness to fairy/dragon types, be weirdly weak to zamazenta/kingambit, and having to rely on weather to actually be good. Currently sun is a B+ tier threat but i would bump it down to a B, because while effective and can be really good, its not as consistent or great as it can be, and if you consider the current power of offense teams, sun can be easily overwhelmed.
However, i think sun as a playstyle is best used when you are able to throw out as much strong attacks as possible, hence why i think Ninetales is the overall better setter than torkoal. Ninetales has good speed, Encore and Healing Wish, which lets it support your breakers more than torkoal. The existence of ninetales makes people wary of setting up, just the chance of encore makes people not want to setup even with stuff that should be free set up vs ninetales like Roaring Moon, Raging Bolt or Tera Fire Zamazenta (which are mons that destroys sun anyways). Its speed is also nothing to scoff at, you are able to clean up KOs on low hp kyurem, great tusk and gholdengo which were mons that usually take advantage of torkoal and kill it.
The biggest benefit of ninetales is healing wish, sun threats are bulky and takes multiple hits to kill usually, and people stop sun by revenge killing or chipping the threats with hazards and stray hits, Ninetales removes that issue as a whole with a fast healing wish, which means you can brawl and be more reckless with your sun sweepers like trading wake vs dragapult, or gouging fire vs lando-t. It will leave you with low health but with a fast healing wish of ninetales you can go back to breaking ASAP. The downside of Ninetales is that it cant set up rocks or remove hazards, but this issue isnt really that big of a deal considering how good Great Tusk, Lando-T and hatterene are on sun anyways. Tusk is an amazing breaker/support that can spin or set up rocks, in regular teams tusk can usually handle hazards on its own but with Proto boost its even better in this regard, Hatterene is just a good pivot pokemon, you can bounce hazard and also eject to breakers , even if sun isnt weak to hazard you will still see hatt being used alongside it, not only that it also gives you a second healing wish pokemon allowing you to run more breakers than you would with torkoal. Lando-T solves the ground weakness of sun, tusk, opposing lando and ting lu are massive threats without it.
To give an idea of the sun threats that gets 2 or 3 chances of destroying your opponent with double healing wish:
SD Kingambit
Specs Walking Wake
Banded Gouging Fire
Raging Bolt (CM, Lorb, Pivot, Specs, Whatever)
Bulk Up Offensive Tusk with an item
Banded Slither Wing
Banded Roaring Moon
Now torkoal still does have its benefits, its bulk is incredible, hazard control is nothing to scoff at either, but as the meta progress slow passive walls like torkoal will perform worse than faster offensive pokemon, torkoal gets taken advantage of way too easily by breakers like kyurem and raging bolt. Ninetales however has the speed and support to make sun more formidable, letting its breaker do twice as much with healing wishes and also preventing set up sweepers from doing its thing with the threat of encore.
So yea while sun is overall worse, i think Ninetales Sun is still quite good and is definetly better than torkoal. Especially with the rise of Kyurem/Bolt/Darkrai HO and Raging Bolt Balance
Doggo is OP, maybe even more than kingambit. Iron Valiant is always criminally downplayed. Destiny bond sets go 2 for 1 every game. That set ticking up is what prompts rises for me. Dragonite is the better roaring moon. Almost zamazenta levels of anti-offense. Encore sets are goofy. Ting-Lu — also should be banned. I don’t think it’s possible to stop this from getting 2 hazards up unless you have taunt? Treads is the new best lead? Bulky booster attack also nice. Crown. The AV set is bleh. I find the choice sets scarier and CM can instant GG. Just too low originally.
drops - landorus gotta be the most copy pasted Pokémon across all gens. If everything wasn’t uturn epower, rocks, then maybe I’d get it, but the ubiquity hurts it when you can take advantage of that set pretty easily. Roaring moon can’t OHKO the other bulky stuff and is therefore useless. Actually… eh moon is way better than landorus. What am I saying.
oh and rain is good despite raging bolt existing bc iron treads is good, barra flip turn is OP, and there is no counter play to raging bolt under rain
I second Ting to A+, it's stupid versatile. It can phase, has hazards, hits hard, shows us what chip damage really means with Ruination, a d it can even trap!
Sand Tomb is something I've been playing with, between that, Ruination and Rest, it can just...murder things, while being the designated status absorber. And you'll definitely get your spikes up.
drops - landorus gotta be the most copy pasted Pokémon across all gens. If everything wasn’t uturn epower, rocks, then maybe I’d get it, but the ubiquity hurts it when you can take advantage of that set pretty easily. Roaring moon can’t OHKO the other bulky stuff and is therefore useless. Actually… eh moon is way better than landorus. What am I saying.
You could never justify dropping LandoT when it's thriving at this point and consistently puts in work. It primarily uses special sets but this isn't the only thing it can do, and there's variance on its special sets it's capable of running. It's a very important part of various team structures at this point in time, especially with its intimidate helping slow many relevant threats.
On another note
A- -> B+/B
I'll be blunt and just say what may be a little harsh/controversial but Don kinda blows at this point in time. Despite being a physical wall, it still finds itself exploited or abused by things it is supposed to check. It's also one of the worst mons to have knocked off because of how it gets shredded by hazards afterwards and forced to rest often. It's taunt/encore food, it gets looped by u-turn and it generally hates the direction of the metagame. It's also got awful moveslot issues of needing rest/sleeptalk, and if it runs coverage to not be helpless against certain physical threats then it drops curse leaving it immensely passive. But curse sets struggle to pick the right single attack they can run (body press means Ghold and Pult have free entry all day while using water stab is entry for Wellspring to run train on your team), unless they want to run protect leftovers sets which are really quickly overwhelmed. I've never been that high on this mon in general but it has never felt as underwhelming as it has now. I'm aware nomming as low as B seems silly and maybe exaggerating a little but it just feels like it struggles too much and even B+ has better picks.
A- -> B+/B
I'll be blunt and just say what may be a little harsh/controversial but Don kinda blows at this point in time. Despite being a physical wall, it still finds itself exploited or abused by things it is supposed to check. It's also one of the worst mons to have knocked off because of how it gets shredded by hazards afterwards and forced to rest often. It's taunt/encore food, it gets looped by u-turn and it generally hates the direction of the metagame. It's also got awful moveslot issues of needing rest/sleeptalk, and if it runs coverage to not be helpless against certain physical threats then it drops curse leaving it immensely passive. But curse sets struggle to pick the right single attack they can run (body press means Ghold and Pult have free entry all day while using water stab is entry for Wellspring to run train on your team), unless they want to run protect leftovers sets which are really quickly overwhelmed. I've never been that high on this mon in general but it has never felt as underwhelming as it has now. I'm aware nomming as low as B seems silly and maybe exaggerating a little but it just feels like it struggles too much and even B+ has better picks.
Honestly, I heavily disagree with this drop. I think dondozo is still an excellent pick in this meta and deserves to be A-.
The knock weakness is something to consider, but hazard removal/detterence isn't the worst thing in the world to need if its knocked off. Many mons don't like taking hazards (see waterpon) and I think dondozo isn't the worst thing to get knocked. It's sheer bulk means it can usually take two hits and hazards semi-comfortably and rest up.
The main taunt mons in the tier, heatran, lando-t and moon, don't like taking dozo's hits at all (and heatran, the main one that can threaten it, usually has to magma storm first to trap dozo, so it has to take two hits before then).
Encore is admittingly really good on dozo, but I don't think that's the worst thing in the world as gambit can be too and nobody is going to hold that too much against it.
The u-turn issue is solved by the rocky helmet set RS25802580 showed in this thread, which is just good in general for chipping any physical attacker. And even if you don't use that set (though admittingly, you should cause that set is amazing), then dozo isn't too worried about u-turn as lefties mostly heals off that damage. With proper hazard support, those u-turns are not accomplishing much.
While it does need rest/sleep talk, the other moves can be chopped and changed as needed. If we are talking about curse sets (which are alright), then they have three options. Waterfall, body press and avalanche. Mono waterfall is amazing if you have a backup waterpon answer (which IMO, you absolutely should have) while mono body press is the best overall set, as while ghold and pult switch in for free, everything else gets hit for decent damage. Mono avalanche has no immunties, and can destroy a lot of mons that think they can chip down dozo, but can be walled by some steel types like gambit. Of course, you choose which one you use based on your team comp and what you want to handle. If it's not curse, then waterfall+bp is amazing. Also I don't understand how non curse dozo is 'passive'. 100 base attack isn't demolishing things, but it is doing solid chip to everything, and bp is doing A LOT to neutral mons and chip damage to resists, which due to dozo's bulk and rest, its most likely outlasting these mons its checking.
Dozo is def A- material. It's a blanket physical wall which is really nice in this meta. And unlike blissey, it isn't really passive and can deal back decent damage.
Honestly, I heavily disagree with this drop. I think dondozo is still an excellent pick in this meta and deserves to be A-.
The knock weakness is something to consider, but hazard removal/detterence isn't the worst thing in the world to need if its knocked off. Many mons don't like taking hazards (see waterpon) and I think dondozo isn't the worst thing to get knocked. It's sheer bulk means it can usually take two hits and hazards semi-comfortably and rest up.
The main taunt mons in the tier, heatran, lando-t and moon, don't like taking dozo's hits at all (and heatran, the main one that can threaten it, usually has to magma storm first to trap dozo, so it has to take two hits before then).
Encore is admittingly really good on dozo, but I don't think that's the worst thing in the world as gambit can be too and nobody is going to hold that too much against it.
The u-turn issue is solved by the rocky helmet set RS25802580 showed in this thread, which is just good in general for chipping any physical attacker. And even if you don't use that set (though admittingly, you should cause that set is amazing), then dozo isn't too worried about u-turn as lefties mostly heals off that damage. With proper hazard support, those u-turns are not accomplishing much.
While it does need rest/sleep talk, the other moves can be chopped and changed as needed. If we are talking about curse sets (which are alright), then they have three options. Waterfall, body press and avalanche. Mono waterfall is amazing if you have a backup waterpon answer (which IMO, you absolutely should have) while mono body press is the best overall set, as while ghold and pult switch in for free, everything else gets hit for decent damage. Mono avalanche has no immunties, and can destroy a lot of mons that think they can chip down dozo, but can be walled by some steel types like gambit. Of course, you choose which one you use based on your team comp and what you want to handle. If it's not curse, then waterfall+bp is amazing. Also I don't understand how non curse dozo is 'passive'. 100 base attack isn't demolishing things, but it is doing solid chip to everything, and bp is doing A LOT to neutral mons and chip damage to resists, which due to dozo's bulk and rest, its most likely outlasting these mons its checking.
Dozo is def A- material. It's a blanket physical wall which is really nice in this meta. And unlike blissey, it isn't really passive and can deal back decent damage.
It simply hasn’t been performing at the level of an A- Mon and its lower usage and success reflects its drop in viability.
Hazard removal remains limited in this tier and especially with the fast pace of the tier, it’s difficult to keep them off especially when many of the best hazard setters are great at outlasting the removal options or beating them outright. The comparison to Wellspring doesn’t work because unlike Don, wellspring makes every switch in count by applying huge pressure or just generating momentum in one way or another while Don doesn’t really exert pressure and tends to drop momentum. This is especially true if it was previously knocked and thus vulnerable to hazards. Without boots (or lefties though that helps less), switching into attacks with hazards up forces it to rest way more often as otherwise it struggles to switch in later.
Example scenario is this: don eats a knock off and loses boots. Now it switches into Black Glasses Gambit Kowtow Cleave,
252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 124-147 (24.6 - 29.1%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
this will immediately pressure a rest from don, as otherwise with even a low rolit risks being 2HKOd next time if rocks are still up. It’s too easy to wear down and take advantage of if it eats knock off, which forces certain team building restraints when using it (either a knock absorber or specific hazard removal), limiting where it can be used effectively.
As for Encore, difference is that Kingambit is massively threatening even without a boost while Don is not. It’s far riskier going for encore on a kingambit which may go for the throat with kowtow instead of sucker punch. As for helmet, it has worse longevity issues than other sets which makes it even more awkward to build with because you now need heavy anti hazard removal which is both difficult to find and fit. And U-Turn doesn’t annoy don through chip, but by bringing in Pokémon that threaten Don out as it comes in.
mono water don is awful. You don’t want to run something that so freely gives turns to one of the scariest threats to the fat teams don fits on. Mono body press gives endless free turns to ghosts, but also Gliscor, LandoT, Iron Valiant, SlowkingG, Moltres. 2 attacks is passive, yes, because the lack of offensive investment makes it unable to deal meaningful damage to defensive teams while the lack of curse makes it way less threatening long term. Lastly, 100 attack is weak when uninvested and unable to boost, making it the definition of passive. It does not outlast physical threats when considering the issues i mentioned (knock off prone, physical hitters abusing it anyways).
Don really only fits well on stall right now, since it can cover for Don’s passivity well (which also applies to Blissey). Outside that it faces major competition from Mola as a fat water which can maintain momentum and keep its team healthy while checking physical threats. And has massive longevity. You CAN still use Don on certain non stall structures but those are very few and far between honestly.
Nominating Fezandipiti to B- rank. Yes, I think its superior to everything in C and below. It has been used 3 times in Wcop and won every time. With Beat Up and 6 healthy Mons, it has 88% to badly poison the opponent. Of course, every Poison immune Mon (Poison, Steels, Gliscor, Garganacl and Clef) wall Fezandipiti hard, but it has U-Turn to switch into something that threatens them. Fezandipiti is not be used on Defensive teams, its specifically a Defensive Mon for Bulky offensive teams. Set:
Fazan (Fezandipiti) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Water (this can be another Tera).
EVs: 248 HP / 196 SpD / 64 Spe
Calm Nature
- U-turn
- Moonblast
- Beat Up
- Roost
Mons Fezandipiti checks:
-Dragapult
-Zamazenta (without Heavy Slam)
-Darkrai
-Raging Bolt
-Primarina
-Enamorus
-Iron Valiant
-Skeledirge (why is this Mon A-, I haven,t seen it in ages)
-Walking Wake
-Serperior
-Zapdos
-Rotom-W
Additionally, as Poison Mon, it removes Toxic Spikes.
Despite being pretty stacked for moveslots, Fezandipiti can actually slap something instead of Moonblast to beat Mons it usually loses to. Since opponent doesn,t want to be poisoned, the switch-in of something immune to Poison can be easily predicted and Fezandipiti can either use U-Turn or use the surprise coverage.
(Theorymoning starts from here, I didn,t actually try this).
For Kingambit (most common Poison immune Mon), Fezandipiti can use Tera Fight + Double Kick:
0 Atk Tera Fighting Fezandipiti Double Kick (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 200-248 (58.6 - 72.7%) -- approx. 2HKO
For Glowking and Gholdengo it can use Tera Dark to hit harder with Beat Up (won,t post calcs here, since we would need to know Fezandipiti's teammates).
For every Steel except Heatran it can use Tera Fire + Heat Wave:
0 SpA Tera Fire Fezandipiti Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 174-206 (43.5 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tera Fire Fezandipiti Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 176-210 (51.6 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Tera Fire Fezandipiti Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 168-198 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- 18% chance to 2HKO
For Gliscor, Icy Wind is an option (no, don,t Tera Ice a defensive Mon):
0 SpA Fezandipiti Icy Wind vs. 244 HP / 16 SpD Gliscor: 148-176 (42 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
Heatran can be smashed by Tera Blast Ground, which will also hit hard Gholdengo, Glowking, Glimmora, Iron Moth and Clodsire, while giving an even better match-up vs Raging Bolt than usually.
Finally, for Clefable Fezandipiti can use the Poison STAB, with either Acid Spray or Poison Jab. Clefable itself can,t beat Fezandipiti with its common sets.
Therefore I think it has enough of a niche and isn,t as desperately walled as it looks.
S- -> A+
A+ -> S-
UR>D.
UR > C
S- > A+
A+ > A
A > A+
A > A+
A- > A
A- > B+
A- > B+
B+ > A-
B+ > B
B > B-
B > B-
B > C+
B > B-
B- > B
B- > B+
B- > B+
C+ > B-/
B > C+
A -> A+
Torkoal
Ninetales
to S
to A+
to A
A-, at least!
to A
A- -> B+/B
Fezandipiti to B- rank. Yes, I think its superior to everything in C and below. It has been used 3 times in Wcop and won every time. With Beat Up and 6 healthy Mons, it has 88% to badly poison the opponent. Of course, every Poison immune Mon (Poison, Steels, Gliscor, Garganacl and Clef) wall Fezandipiti hard, but it has U-Turn to switch into something that threatens them. Fezandipiti is not be used on Defensive teams, its specifically a Defensive Mon for Bulky offensive teams. Set: