Announcement SV National Dex Suspect 2: Bullet With Butterfly Wings

[Kyo]

Hello and welcome to the second National Dex suspect test of Generation 9 Scarlet and Violet!
​

This past week we ran our first National Dex Player Survey to gauge public perception of the metagame. When asked to vote on the perceived competitiveness of certain metagame threats, the playerbase showed more significant concern towards one mon in particular. Espathra received an average score of 3.15 out of 5 indicating that a majority of the playerbase feels Espathra is overbearing and may have the potential to be broken within the tier. Given these results, the National Dex OU Council has decided to suspect test Espathra for the following two-week period.

[Espathra Pro-Ban]
Espathra has proven itself to be one of the biggest sleeper threats out of all the newly introduced Pokemon in Scarlet and Violet. While it may not have received much initial attention, Espathra is a growing pick for hyper offense teams as it exemplifies one of the most effective uses of defensive terastalization on an otherwise offensive mon.
- Espathra's unique combination of speed boost, calm mind, and stored power gives it an unparalleled ability to snowball into a potential sweep with relatively little setup required.
- A high base speed stat in tandem with speed boost leads to limited revenge killing options, and Espathra is free to invest a majority of its EVs into bulk and offensive power.
- By increasing move base power instead of stat stages, stored power is able to ignore unaware and muscle through several calm mind users that would otherwise setup alongside Espathra. Espathra's stored power grows stronger every turn that it remains on the field even when not setting up due to speed boost, and Espathra is still free to calm mind in front of unaware mons just to increase the base power of this move.
- Espathra can terastalize into a number of common defensive typings such as water, steel, or fairy while still maintaining the psychic type STAB boost on its main offensive tool. A better defensive typing makes Espathra effectively much bulkier in certain positions and can generate extra turns to setup more calm minds and speed boosts.
- In National Dex, Espathra has access to two highly relevant support options in Cyclizar and dual screens Tapu Koko. Cyclizar can generate more free turns for Espathra to setup if it successfully passes a substitute. Tapu Koko can accomplish a similar result through screens support and also uniquely enables Espathra to activate an electric seed with relative ease, further increasing bulk and the base power of stored power.

[Espathra Anti-Ban]
- Espathra has little to no immediate offensive presence when it enters the field and must setup one or more calm minds before attacking to be somewhat effective.
- Support through Cyclizar, Tapu Koko, or other methods is fairly mandatory for Espathra to achieve full potential. While this isn't a large hurdle for most hyper offense teams, it does mean that it is far less splashable on other team structures.
- Espathra often relies heavily on terastalization to be effective meaning there is a greater opportunity cost to tera any other mon on the team even if said mon has a favorable matchup.
- It has a limited offensive movepool that is reliant on dazzling gleam and fighting-type tera blast for coverage against anything that stored power can't hit hard enough. Ideally, Espathra would run both of these moves for optimal offensive coverage. However, this means not being able to use protect, substitute, or roost which are all powerful tools for achieving an Espathra sweep. Fighting-type tera blast additionally requires Espathra terastalize into a less favorable typing with fewer relevant resistances.
- Espathra has little defensive recourse against bulky phasing options like whirlwind Ting-Lu and roar Heatran. Once it has revealed its offensive coverage, an appropriate defensive tera can also put an end to a potential sweep.

​

Suspect Test Information:

• Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
• The table for this can be found below:

Requisites List

GXE	Minimum games
84	30
83.8	31
83.6	32
83.4	33
83.2	34
83	35
82.8	36
82.6	37
82.4	38
82.2	39
82	40
81.8	41
81.6	42
81.4	43
81.2	44
81	45
80.8	46
80.6	47
80.4	48
80.2	49
80	50

• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be ND9E. For example, I could sign up as ND9E Kyo.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular National Dex ladder for this suspect test, and Espathra will be legal throughout the entire suspect test.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• The suspect test will run for approximately two weeks, lasting until February 19th at 11:59 pm (GMT-5), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Here's a list of rules that we expect all posters to follow:

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the National Dex Council and the National Dex Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result of this suspect, then so be it.
  • This is not the place to complain about the suspect process. Please PM me, Jho, or Kaede if you have any questions regarding this, and any broader questions about this test.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.

 

[Kyo]

This thread will remain closed for 24h for everyone to gather their thoughts.

 

[Steorra]

Voter Identification thread up!

 

[Steorra]

thread free who dis

 

[Sputnik]

First I guess.

In my mind Espathra is pretty damn unhealthy and just too hard to stop consistently. Now I do have to acknowledge that this is not a cut and dry suspect and there are legitimate anti-ban arguments (unlike another suspect that happened here recently but we won't get into that). Phazing options such as WW Ting-Lu and Roar Heatran are legitimate checks, as are Tera Dark Unawares, usually Clodsire. Offensively you can also be pressured pretty hard by options such as Dragapult or Iron Valiant, and you can also position yourself to make its support options hard to pull off, especially Cyc as people have gotten a lot better at adjusting for Shed Tail.

That being said, I still consider Espa to be too much, mostly because supporting its efforts is very easy on current HO builds. Even beyond Cyc and Koko, (which are obviously really good options for it), you have HO sweepers that cover basically every bad matchup. Mega Gyarados basically tackles every defensive option run for Espa by itself, and Iron Valiant and Kingambit are no slouches into these answers either. Offensively, Kingambit and Volcarona handle Dragapult and Iron Valiant, respectively, and these threats can also be outplayed by getting your sweepers going before they have a chance to do their thing. There are several other HO sweepers that go well with Espa, ranging from Dragapult to Dragonite to even trickier things like TrickScarf Ghold. Espa cleans up the vast, vast majority of what these sweepers can't get past, making it overpowering when put into an HO chain. Espa is also flexible enough to be challenging to check consistently, as it has four viable Teras that allow it to get past several of its softer checks, and outlasting it with Status is risky as it will likely blow a hole in your defenses or, at the very least, force an undesirable defensive Tera that makes your core weaker to other sweepers. Mega Gyarados and Iron Valiant, in particular, are great at taking advantage of these undesired Teras, and can even force Teras themselves, leading to a potential Espa sweep. The vast majority of HO sweepers are perfectly functional without Tera as well, meaning that you are free to use Tera Blast Espathra on many builds. This isn't even talking about Espathra itself really lol, which has unrivaled snowball potential and is really hard to stop if your defensive checks have taken any meaningful chip (which good HOs can provide in spades.) Priority isn't surefire because of the Tera risk, and stopping it with Steels can falter if it's Tera Fighting.

In short, I believe that Espathra is overwhelming when used on current HOs. They have a very easy time of supporting it and, if played well, it will often leave an insurmountable dent in your team if it doesn't sweep outright. That being said, there are legitimate anti-ban arguments so I am curious as to what others have to say. However, I will be voting BAN.

 

[Baller6275]

As a salamence i think this mon is very broken and has few checks and forces mons like ting lu or gambit or tera darkon some mons, which can result in uou losing to the resr of the team. Lrtting the big bird set up fora single turn means you just lose a lot of the time and tera + eseed is broken and makes it too bulky
Pls ban big burd

 

[Ryuji]

i wld be lying if i say that im not surprised espathra is suspected. I dont think its that broken, and i think theres higher priority. That being said, lets talk abt the bird.
i think the mon is good, yes, but require an absurd amount of support to properly shine, not only that but it also does require several turns to setup to be threatening. U kinda need to use it into the same structure w at least 4 or 5 same mon, which isnt a problem on its own but really show the absolute need of large support the pokemon need. People also tend to not respect these playstyle while building, or not to properly play around it, which is normal since its a "new" thing: you always need time to adapt to something. And i feel like the mon on its own isnt that hard to adapt to. Phazers like tran and ting lu tends to work well, Unaware Tera Dark asw, Tspikes/Haze user, etc etc... People also tend to get better at playing around Shed Tail, which change the situation to espathra + sub to just espathra which is already a lot easier to deal with. Same goes with screens teams.

So, Espathra ON ITS OWN isn't a huge issue. The real problem is more in what playstyle it evolves and how it is supported. Hyper Offenses received huge buffs, like Cyclizar passing subs to strong setup, or in ND case, better elec terrain support for easier elec seed proc. It also has a plethora of good team mates, and obviously, the conjonction of several breakers does forces you to trade stuff which will potentially lead to you losing to one of those breakers. When i read Sputnik's post, i see a lot of mention of Pokemon thar arent espathra. The general feeling i have abt pro-ban is this:
- its easy to sweep w it, which is quite wrong imo, espathra requires a lot of support and needs the correct momentum to stack several Calm Minds
- Doesnt need that much support, quite wrong as well, you literally need to play at least 2 mons thar are entirely dedicated to it, because pokemon like gyarados or volcarona doesnt NEED screens support nor a sub, its just a nice addition. They can perfectly perform their role without these, while its much harder for espathra because its inherently way weaker. Obviously, Gyarados can perform even better behind screen or w a free shed tail pass sub, but he doesnt need it. the most popular teams w the bird seems to be only built around it. Another important thing that needs to be mentioned is the fact it NEEDS to tera to perform well, which cld cost you an occasion later on if espathra fails.

In regard to all this, you could think i wld vote for it to stay. However thats not the case. Tier is already bad enough w tera, i dont want this to stick around any longer because its not enjoyable to play as and against, from my experience. And even if i never had any problem against it, bar maybe one game, i still think it shld go. Even if i pointed out that adapting to those HOs wasnt the hardest thing in the world to do, it does restrict your build, as its smth now common that you must respect. And i became quite bored of having a Phazer in every recent stuff i made. I think the true thing that makes people hate the bird is just that its not "fun" to play around or to lose to: losing isnt fun but it feels worse when u lose against the bird, because since ppl does not respect it enough in the builder or ingame they tend to think they lost not bc they played badly but bc of espathra being broken, when in reality they cld probably prepare better for it. Since fun is apparently what we must seek for when it comes to tiering policy, as revealed our last suspect, i'll be voting BAN.

tl:dr and on a more serious note: i wld prob have suspect smth else/ban smth else before this bird but i wont regret it and i think its r annoying in general while being quite restrictive.

 

[Return to Zero]

Gonna go ahead and say that ban is the way to go with the slay ostrich. This is a bit of an odd one for me, because I don't think that Espathra is without accessible and broadly useful counterplay. The issue, rather, is that Espathra's viability is heavily tied up in its surprise factor and limiting how you can react to it. It's too swing-y, and when it goes in, the only possible results are you get your numbers and blow a giant hole in the other team, or you fail to get your setup and Espathra becomes a wasted slot and probably a waste of your Tera too. It's not too broken to stop, it's just extremely uncompetitive.

"But Zero", I hear you ask, partially distracted by how handsome you think I am, "Espathra can't surprise anyone! It only has one set and one win condition, and all variation within that is just different coverage!" This is true, and in fact part of why I want it gone. There is no uncertainty with Espathra. Every time it's sent in, you know exactly what it's going to try to do: stall for turns to get Calm Mind/Speed Boost setup, Tera into something else for defense and Tera Blast, and sweep. It is one of the most one-dimensional designs possible. The issue (or rather, the half of the issue this paragraph is for) is that Tera gives it way too much flexibility in how it can defend itself and what Stored Power resists it can OHKO. Tera Fighting? Now Kingambit's Sucker Punch can't touch it. Tera Flying? Now Scizor's Bullet Punch can't. Tera Steel? Now Dragonite or any other ESpeed user... You get the point. There just isn't much of a way to know how Espathra will defend itself, so you have to gamble those two-three turns between you and a party wipe on what Espathra will Tera into. Since this is a metagame with Tera, its abusers have to be considered with it. Unless you've got multiple priority users that are diverse enough to where at least one of them can take it down regardless of what Tera type Espathra is, this is a nightmare.

"But Zero," I hear you ask again, while getting lost in my beautiful eyes, "Look at those base stats! Both its defense stats and HP are terrible, and it actually has pretty average base Speed! It can't be that good! Remember how it was in UUBL for a while there?" Couple things with that. First, Speed Boost means it only needs average base Speed. Most Espathra sets in fact don't even invest anything into Speed because it gets so fast on its own just from being out for two turns. Second, it's actually got way better ways to increase its defenses and survive long enough to get those numbers. ND has so many options to help it live. Cyclizar exists and can secure at the bare minimum one turn of setup no matter what. You can run dual screens Tapu Koko, give Espathra an Electric Seed, and suddenly turn it into a physical tank. Aurora Veil A-Ninetales continues to exist and snow does a lot more favors for it than hail. Any move that drops the opponent's attacking stats to move Espathra out of their OHKO range. Trick a Scarf onto a slow support. Anything that makes the opponent switch out. You just have to stall long enough to get a few turns of boosts, and then you have your win condition.

TL;DR Lady Gaga is uncompetitive, turning games into a betting match where you have to gamble getting swept on what Tera type you think it is, and ND gives it so many tools to survive longer and stack the odds further against you, so I find it very unhealthy for the tier and want it gone.

 

[SillyTopplingGoose]

right, [It's my first time doing this eeee]

anyway, I'm on team no ban for two reasons

firstly, Espathra gets shut down really hard by dark types. Stored power is what makes it sweep as hard as it does, and dark types are fully immune to it. it does get dazzling gleam, but if the sweep is going optimally, that can be up to 80 BP less, and no STAB. and there's more dark types running around in natdex then there is in Paldea due to how diverse the format is by nature. aggressive dark types can switch in on Espathra and block the stored power, than OHKO it with sucker punch, and Dark type walls can either force a switch, haze, or take it out with their own damage.

additionally, Espathra needs to actually come in, get at least one calm mind off and actually get the ball rolling, and that circumstance can be hard to pinpoint, and some games may not come up at all. Espathra with only one speed boost (40 BP stored power) wont do enough damage to take out an enemy pokemon and it'll end up 1v1ed by whatever it was sent out against. I find that with a lot of Gen 9 top tiers, they have a specific power window or condition that if you play around it, you can limit their impact. Espathra is no exception, and taking it out earlier is a good way to limit it's impact.

all and all, I consider something ban worthy if it completely defines the meta. if we had to consciously make sure every team we make has an Espathra counter on it. id say yes ban, and thats KIND OF true, but an Espathra counter boils down to "any dark type" or "any pokemon that's risky to switch in on". and most teams are going to wind up with at least one of those two things anyway

 

[Nish the Great]

right, [It's my first time doing this eeee]

anyway, I'm on team no ban for two reasons

firstly, Espathra gets shut down really hard by dark types. Stored power is what makes it sweep as hard as it does, and dark types are fully immune to it. it does get dazzling gleam, but if the sweep is going optimally, that can be up to 80 BP less, and no STAB. and there's more dark types running around in natdex then there is in Paldea due to how diverse the format is by nature. aggressive dark types can switch in on Espathra and block the stored power, than OHKO it with sucker punch, and Dark type walls can either force a switch, haze, or take it out with their own damage.

additionally, Espathra needs to actually come in, get at least one calm mind off and actually get the ball rolling, and that circumstance can be hard to pinpoint, and some games may not come up at all. Espathra with only one speed boost (40 BP stored power) wont do enough damage to take out an enemy pokemon and it'll end up 1v1ed by whatever it was sent out against. I find that with a lot of Gen 9 top tiers, they have a specific power window or condition that if you play around it, you can limit their impact. Espathra is no exception, and taking it out earlier is a good way to limit it's impact.

all and all, I consider something ban worthy if it completely defines the meta. if we had to consciously make sure every team we make has an Espathra counter on it. id say yes ban, and thats KIND OF true, but an Espathra counter boils down to "any dark type" or "any pokemon that's risky to switch in on". and most teams are going to wind up with at least one of those two things anyway

dark types when the the when terastal phenomenon

+2 0 SpA Tera Fighting Espathra Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 336-400 (83.1 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Return to Zero]

Right. A couple things with this.

firstly, Espathra gets shut down really hard by dark types.

Depends. Whirlwind Ting-Lu and Tera Dark Clodsire do indeed shut it down, but that's kinda it as 100% reliable options go. I'm gonna put some calcs down here, going off the assumptions that A: you are switching into one of these Dark types in immediate response to Espathra, so it's getting one turn of Calm Mind/Speed Boost buffs, and B: Espathra does not currently have a substitute or screens of some kind up, for some ungodly reason.

hte super great calcs

+1 0 SpA Tera Fighting Espathra Tera Blast vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 600-708 (162.6 - 191.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Espathra outspeeds.
+1 0 SpA Tera Fighting Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 344-408 (98 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Speed tie if Roaring Moon is Jolly, otherwise Espathra outspeeds.
+1 0 SpA Tera Fighting Espathra Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Brute Bonnet: 264-312 (72.7 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Espathra outspeeds.
+1 0 SpA Tera Fighting Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grimmsnarl: 150-178 (38 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Espathra outspeeds, barring Prankster.
+1 0 SpA Tera Fighting Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lokix: 280-330 (98.9 - 116.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Espathra outspeeds, but even if Lokix goes for First Impression you can see in the second section of calcs below that doesn't matter.
+1 0 SpA Tera Fighting Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 114-136 (37.5 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Espathra outspeeds.
+1 0 SpA Tera Fighting Espathra Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 252-300 (62.3 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Espathra outspeeds.
+1 0 SpA Tera Fighting Espathra Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 206-246 (62.2 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Espathra outspeeds.
+1 0 SpA Tera Fighting Espathra Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Wo-Chien: 152-182 (40.6 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Espathra super outspeeds.

So basically, the most common Dark types in OU get two-shotted, except for the very defensive ones that Espathra can continue setting up in the face of. Even dipping into lower tiers for other defensive options like Tyranitar or Wo-Chien doesn't really help.

And etcetera.

additionally, Espathra needs to actually come in, get at least one calm mind off and actually get the ball rolling, and that circumstance can be hard to pinpoint, and some games may not come up at all.

I don't think getting Espathra the time it needs to do work is that tricky? It's not free, but ND has so many options to make it easier. As the initial post and some of the others here, myself included, have said, you can do a lot to make Espathra safer. Cyclizar Shed Tail, dual screens Koko/Electric Seed, Aurora Veil, Espathra's own potential Substitute, any sort of disadvantageous position where the opponent will want to switch out to give Espathra a turn for a Speed Boost proc. These sorts of things are mainstays on HO teams, but Espathra gets a much higher reward for using them the same way.

I find that with a lot of Gen 9 top tiers, they have a specific power window or condition that if you play around it, you can limit their impact. Espathra is no exception, and taking it out earlier is a good way to limit it's impact.

The inverse of this statement is true as well. Espathra has teammates and does not exist in a vacuum. Espathra's best role is as a lategame cleaner once its potential checks have cleared the field or you've already blown your Tera and can't use it to defend against it. If you have Ting-Lu or the almighty Clod, the opponent can just keep Espathra in the back until they're either gone or weakened, then send it in to clean up.

all and all, I consider something ban worthy if it completely defines the meta. if we had to consciously make sure every team we make has an Espathra counter on it. id say yes ban, and thats KIND OF true, but an Espathra counter boils down to "any dark type" or "any pokemon that's risky to switch in on". and most teams are going to wind up with at least one of those two things anyway

Espathra's possible counters vary wildly depending on its Tera type. Like I mentioned in my post above, it can completely nullify some of its best answers depending on Tera, and you don't know for sure which one it'll go to until it already has. Tera Fighting shuts down Sucker Punch, Tera Flying stops Bullet Punch and Mach Punch, Tera Steel stops Extreme Speed, so on. It's unrealistic to expect that you'll not only have an answer for Espathra regardless of what it Teras into, but that by the time you can put it in after it Teras, it won't be too late. And just for fun, here's some more calcs with that same +1 Sp.A/Sp.D/Spe Tera Fighting Espathra, but on defense.

more sick fuckin calcs bro

252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Espathra: 63-75 (15.9 - 19%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lol. Lmao, even.
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Espathra: 322-380 (81.7 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Speed tie if Roaring Moon is Jolly, otherwise Espathra outspeeds.
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Brute Bonnet Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Espathra: 174-207 (44.1 - 52.5%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Espathra outspeeds.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Lokix First Impression vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Espathra: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Espathra outspeeds every turn after the first, so the only real play here is bringing in Lokix again later to do this twice. Better hope it doesn't have Protect.
0 Atk Tyranitar Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Espathra: 51-63 (12.9 - 15.9%) -- approx. possible 7HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
Espathra outspeeds.
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Espathra: 160-190 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Espathra outspeeds unless you decided to waste a turn using Dragon Dance.

Basically, out of the Dark type "checks" who can actually hit Espathra back as effectively as possible, none can OHKO it after it Teras, and since priority no longer works well against it, Espathra is going to knock them out before it goes down. Of course, you could Tera them as well to get some extra STAB damage... but then you're no longer a Dark type, and you get hit by Stored Power, so it's a giant risk and a waste if Espathra outspeeds and predicts.

 

[jawsome274]

right, [It's my first time doing this eeee]
all and all, I consider something ban worthy if it completely defines the meta. if we had to consciously make sure every team we make has an Espathra counter on it. id say yes ban, and thats KIND OF true, but an Espathra counter boils down to "any dark type" or "any pokemon that's risky to switch in on". and most teams are going to wind up with at least one of those two things anyway

good point, it sure is risky to bring my +1 def espathra who can boost its spdef into an enemy with a sub and screens up huh /s

 

[james183874]

First I guess.

In my mind Espathra is pretty damn unhealthy and just too hard to stop consistently. Now I do have to acknowledge that this is not a cut and dry suspect and there are legitimate anti-ban arguments (unlike another suspect that happened here recently but we won't get into that). Phazing options such as WW Ting-Lu and Roar Heatran are legitimate checks, as are Tera Dark Unawares, usually Clodsire. Offensively you can also be pressured pretty hard by options such as Dragapult or Iron Valiant, and you can also position yourself to make its support options hard to pull off, especially Cyc as people have gotten a lot better at adjusting for Shed Tail.

That being said, I still consider Espa to be too much, mostly because supporting its efforts is very easy on current HO builds. Even beyond Cyc and Koko, (which are obviously really good options for it), you have HO sweepers that cover basically every bad matchup. Mega Gyarados basically tackles every defensive option run for Espa by itself, and Iron Valiant and Kingambit are no slouches into these answers either. Offensively, Kingambit and Volcarona handle Dragapult and Iron Valiant, respectively, and these threats can also be outplayed by getting your sweepers going before they have a chance to do their thing. There are several other HO sweepers that go well with Espa, ranging from Dragapult to Dragonite to even trickier things like TrickScarf Ghold. Espa cleans up the vast, vast majority of what these sweepers can't get past, making it overpowering when put into an HO chain. Espa is also flexible enough to be challenging to check consistently, as it has four viable Teras that allow it to get past several of its softer checks, and outlasting it with Status is risky as it will likely blow a hole in your defenses or, at the very least, force an undesirable defensive Tera that makes your core weaker to other sweepers. Mega Gyarados and Iron Valiant, in particular, are great at taking advantage of these undesired Teras, and can even force Teras themselves, leading to a potential Espa sweep. The vast majority of HO sweepers are perfectly functional without Tera as well, meaning that you are free to use Tera Blast Espathra on many builds. This isn't even talking about Espathra itself really lol, which has unrivaled snowball potential and is really hard to stop if your defensive checks have taken any meaningful chip (which good HOs can provide in spades.) Priority isn't surefire because of the Tera risk, and stopping it with Steels can falter if it's Tera Fighting.

In short, I believe that Espathra is overwhelming when used on current HOs. They have a very easy time of supporting it and, if played well, it will often leave an insurmountable dent in your team if it doesn't sweep outright. That being said, there are legitimate anti-ban arguments so I am curious as to what others have to say. However, I will be voting BAN.

The, I agree, I have used espathra for quite a few matches now, and if I thought I would manage to meet the vote requirements, I would vote ban aswell, but since I don't play too often, I don't think I would, unless I went on another one of the sprees like I did today

The, I agree, I have used espathra for quite a few matches now, and if I thought I would manage to meet the vote requirements, I would vote ban aswell, but since I don't play too often, I don't think I would, unless I went on another one of the sprees like I did today

And even then, I don't think I would
Edit, devs, thanks for merging my posts, I didn't know where the edit button was originally, so thanks.

 

[K302]

Let's talk about Espathras checks/counterplay, how reliable and how good are they in other mus?

For balance Teams
Clodsire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Toxic
- Spikes/Stealth Rock
Or other Tera Dark + Haze mons like pex or mantine.

This is the best counter, come in before Espathra gets its boosts Tera Dark to ignore Stored Power getting stronger, Toxic it and Recover vs potential Tera Fighting Tera Blast
(which only does around 30%).

This counterplay has the very big flaw of relying on tera to work, while Espathra doesn't have to use its tera. This means that the opponent still has their tera left for Kingambit, Volcarona or Annihilape, while your offense killers like Scarf Gholdengo, Lando, lele and Specs pult lack the power boost they need to OHKO/need much more chip to KO the common HO mons.

Clod also doesn't really like to Tera, especially not into a Dark Type, which offers next to no defensive Utility for clod (apart form being immune to volcs Psychic which doesn't 2HKO anyway and being a fake soft check to mega gyra, which just doesn't mega and sits on clod with sub forever and flinches it 2 death) and you lose your extremely valuable resistances to Fairy, Fighting and your Electric Immunity.

The bo/offense counterplay
Ting-Lu @ Leftovers
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
Tera Type: Ghost / Steel / Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Ruination
- Stealth Rock / Spikes
- Whirlwind
or
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 128 SpD / 128 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Toxic
- Roar

This is pretty simple: come in, take a hit and Phaze Espathra out.

This has a lot of pretty big flaws, phazing Espathra doesn't solve the Problem long term and Espathra (unlike Hawlucha) can come back later and try to sweep again, if Espathra is the last mon, phazing doesn't work at all. Espathra also doesn't have to use its Electric Seed in the earlier Rounds because Ting-Lu only has a 6.5% chance to 3HKO at ±0
(0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Espathra: 115-136 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 6.5% chance to 3HKO)
Heatran sometimes runs Toxic though, which ruins Espathra and makes scouting necessary.

Espathra can also deal respectable chip at +1 against them with Tera Blast Water/Fighting.

Calcs

+1 0 SpA Tera Fighting Espathra Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 164-194 (31.9 - 37.7%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recover
+1 0 SpA Tera Fighting Espathra Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Heatran: 186-218 (48.1 - 56.4%) -- 32% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Tran runs a lot more speed most of the time btw., this is a pessimistic calc)

Heatran struggles to phaze Espathra twice and Ting-Lu can be chipped pretty easily by Espathras Teammates, like Dragapult and Volc, who can overwhelm Ting-Lu and Volc pretty quickly together with Espathra respectively.

Ting-Lu and Roar on Heatran aren't very good outside of the HO mu. Before Espathra rapidly rose, Ting-Lu was the worst it has ever been and it is still not good (it's ranked B on the vr). It gets worn down (this Replay demonstrates that well) and it can’t beat the common Defoggers. 80% of its usage is Espathra and pult panic.

Heatran already wants to use Rocks, Toxic, Taunt and sometimes Tera Blast in its last two slots. Roar is another thing it needs to fit into its already crowded moveset. Losing even one more of Rocks, Toxic, Taunt and Tera Blast makes it a lot worse in other mus (I won’t list them here you all know them).

Other stuff
Gastrodon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Storm Drain
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Clear Smog
- Recover
- Scald
- Earthquake

This Gastrodon Set can come in on Espathra and remove its Boosts with Clear Smog. This is a pretty good check, but not having Hazards really hurts Gastrodon and makes it pretty passive. Gastrodon also can't KO Espathra, both just sit on each other

Have fun stalling each other

+1 0 SpA Espathra Stored Power (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 108-127 (25.3 - 29.8%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Gastrodon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espathra: 91-108 (23 - 27.4%) -- 58.3% chance to 4HKO

Gholdengo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Make It Rain
+
A Dark Type, preferably Kingambit to abuse locked Espathra

This tries to cripple Espathra with Trick by using Gholdengos great defensive Typing to take a hit and lock it into Stored Power, then Switch into a Dark Type and force it out.
This has 3 big flaws:
1.This only works once, a skilled player will scout for this and Gholdengo can’t handle a Tera Espathra without the Choice Item.
2.It relies on Gholdengo being healthy enough to take +1 0 SpA Espathra Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 87-103 (27.6 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
, which is sometimes easier said than done, if Gholdengo is also your Iron Valiant check or if the opponent has a Pursuit mon like Kingambit, Weavile or Mega Tyranitar.
3. This combination only fits on very few teams, due to having to justify using Scarf Gholdengo over Specs Pult.

Revengekilling Espathra is almost impossible especially with up Screens, it outspeeds every mon in the meta at +2 speed and KOs every offensive mon in return, most of them can't even 2HKO it, if it has the +1 def boost.

Tldr:
Espathra is absolutely broken, it's impossible to revengekill and its checks are flawed and/or come with a great opportunity cost.
I will vote Ban and urge everyone else to do so too. Let's make this Tier at least a bit playable.

#BanTeraasap

 

[WilhelmTheOkay]

Not a fan of Espathra as a concept and I was somewhat surprised to see one of my favorite pokemon not brought up in discussions because it does have a positive matchup with the ostrich. (in a vacuum)


Alolan Muk!

So first off the Poison/Dark typing is still one of the best possible and in terms of the Espathra matchup it is immune to Stored Power and neutral to all its standard coverage options such as Focus Blast and Dazzling Gleam. Muk is able to eat neutral hits for breakfast as well with its 105 HP and 100 SPD bulk and still has okay power with 105 ATK. In terms of moves Muk is able to hit super effectively w/o Tera with Knock Off while also able to pack Clear Smog/Haze to try and deal with the constant boosts and all of the physical hits can poison due to Poison Touch (which honestly could be kinda in favor of the bird as base poison is preferable to a lot of other status). And of course, Muk still has Pursuit if Espathra switches out, but why would it want to switch out of this matchup?

Well this brings us on to Muk's sheer disgust at the majority of whatever Espathra throws at it.

Espathra Stored Power vs. Muk-Alola: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+6 252 SpA Tera Fairy Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk-Alola: 315-372 (76 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Tera Fighting Espathra Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk-Alola: 315-372 (76 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So yea Muk can generally switch into a Espathra pretty comfortably. (but may or may not have access to reliable recovery)

Here are two sets:

Pivot

Muk-Alola @ Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Poison Touch
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Pursuit
- Gunk Shot / Poison Jab
- Toxic / Knock Off
- Taunt / Haze

Assault Vest

Muk-Alola @ Assault Vest
Ability: Poison Touch
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Pursuit
- Knock Off
- Gunk Shot / Poison Jab
- Clear Smog

And calcs:

Offensive Calc Dump

0 Atk Muk-Alola switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espathra: 176-210 (44.6 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Muk-Alola switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fairy Espathra: 44-52 (11.1 - 13.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever

------

0 Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espathra: 216-254 (54.8 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espathra: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fairy Espathra: 54-63 (13.7 - 15.9%) -- possible 7HKO

0 Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fairy Espathra: 36-42 (9.1 - 10.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever

------

0 Atk Muk-Alola Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espathra: 133-157 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- 27.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Muk-Alola Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espathra: 88-105 (22.3 - 26.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Muk-Alola Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fairy Espathra: 266-314 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Muk-Alola Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fairy Espathra: 176-210 (44.6 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So yea overall, Muk can sit in front of Espathra and still do a decent amount of damage as well. This is a bit gimmicky and can exploited by Espathra's teammates, but if you want something a bit different to switch into her, Muk can work. But yea Espathra isn't very fun.

 

[Sulo]

Not a fan of Espathra as a concept and I was somewhat surprised to see one of my favorite pokemon not brought up in discussions because it does have a positive matchup with the ostrich. (in a vacuum)


Alolan Muk!

So first off the Poison/Dark typing is still one of the best possible and in terms of the Espathra matchup it is immune to Stored Power and neutral to all its standard coverage options such as Focus Blast and Dazzling Gleam. Muk is able to eat neutral hits for breakfast as well with its 105 HP and 100 SPD bulk and still has okay power with 105 ATK. In terms of moves Muk is able to hit super effectively w/o Tera with Knock Off while also able to pack Clear Smog/Haze to try and deal with the constant boosts and all of the physical hits can poison due to Poison Touch (which honestly could be kinda in favor of the bird as base poison is preferable to a lot of other status). And of course, Muk still has Pursuit if Espathra switches out, but why would it want to switch out of this matchup?

Well this brings us on to Muk's sheer disgust at the majority of whatever Espathra throws at it.

Espathra Stored Power vs. Muk-Alola: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+6 252 SpA Tera Fairy Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk-Alola: 315-372 (76 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Tera Fighting Espathra Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk-Alola: 315-372 (76 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So yea Muk can generally switch into a Espathra pretty comfortably. (but may or may not have access to reliable recovery)

Here are two sets:

Pivot

Muk-Alola @ Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Poison Touch
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Pursuit
- Gunk Shot / Poison Jab
- Toxic / Knock Off
- Taunt / Haze

Assault Vest

Muk-Alola @ Assault Vest
Ability: Poison Touch
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Pursuit
- Knock Off
- Gunk Shot / Poison Jab
- Clear Smog

And calcs:

Offensive Calc Dump

0 Atk Muk-Alola switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espathra: 176-210 (44.6 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Muk-Alola switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fairy Espathra: 44-52 (11.1 - 13.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever

------

0 Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espathra: 216-254 (54.8 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espathra: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fairy Espathra: 54-63 (13.7 - 15.9%) -- possible 7HKO

0 Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fairy Espathra: 36-42 (9.1 - 10.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever

------

0 Atk Muk-Alola Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espathra: 133-157 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- 27.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Muk-Alola Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espathra: 88-105 (22.3 - 26.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Muk-Alola Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fairy Espathra: 266-314 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Muk-Alola Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fairy Espathra: 176-210 (44.6 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So yea overall, Muk can sit in front of Espathra and still do a decent amount of damage as well. This is a bit gimmicky and can exploited by Espathra's teammates, but if you want something a bit different to switch into her, Muk can work. But yea Espathra isn't very fun.

This...loses to Tera Steel. If it's AV you have an even worse shot at actually beating Espathra, since you can't Haze its boosts. But either way this doesn't have a good matchup into one of its better (defensive) Tera typings. Alolan Muk kinda sucks outside of this proposed niche, so I wouldn't recommend it.

ANYWAYS Espathra posting time. I thoroughly think this Pokemon is BROKEN as hell (I will ladder for reqs / start today I swear). There is 100% counterplay that exists, like Thunder Wave Ferrothorn, Tera Dark Clodsire, Kingambit, etc etc; the truth is it's just incredibly easy to avoid said counterplay with teammates like Cyclizar, which isn't a problem on its own but enables Espathra way too well to the point of ridiculousness. Flips matchups way too easily with Terastaliization (maybe we should ban Tera!!!), sets up on like half the tier with Electric Seed and becomes even more powerful with the boost given from the seed, and has multiple ways to beat proposed checks with Tera Blast + Tera Water, etc. Not much that hasn't been said at this point, ban it.

 

[WilhelmTheOkay]

This...loses to Tera Steel. If it's AV you have an even worse shot at actually beating Espathra, since you can't Haze its boosts. But either way this doesn't have a good matchup into one of its better (defensive) Tera typings. Alolan Muk kinda sucks outside of this proposed niche, so I wouldn't recommend it.

Yea that's a good point, maybe something with Drain Punch, Haze, and Leftovers could work, but that's even more gimmicky. Either way hopefully the bird will be permanently gone next week. I guess the truly best check to a pokemon is a suspect test.

Muk-Alola @ Leftovers
Ability: Poison Touch
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch
- Haze

 

[myself12]

Trying to make reqs right now, and while I feel that Esparatha is banworthy for the reasons above, there are other much more unhealthy parts of the metagame; honestly, in my opinion, it cannot be saved.

I am leaning towards no ban simply because there are other aspects that must be dealt with first before we deal with esparatha.

Issues like the amount of hax prevalent, tera, dragapult, rain, and zamazenta must be taken care of first.

 

[Sulo]

Trying to make reqs right now, and while I feel that Esparatha is banworthy for the reasons above, there are other much more unhealthy parts of the metagame; honestly, in my opinion, it cannot be saved.

I am leaning towards no ban simply because there are other aspects that must be dealt with first before we deal with esparatha.

Issues like the amount of hax prevalent, tera, dragapult, rain, and zamazenta must be taken care of first.

Ok, I'm going to say this in the nicest way possible but like, this is a super super SUPER dumb way of looking at things, and frankly this shouldn't even be an argument.

Espathra is objectively one of the fishiest elements of the tier; it devolves games into how well you can deal with it, and if you can't, you lose (which is very often). It is undeniably true that there are many other issues to be dealt with in the tier, but if you are literally GIVEN the chance to get rid of one of the most pressing issues of the tier, why on earth would you pass it up? We know that there are issues that have to be dealt with, but if council chose to take care of Espathra first, then deal with it and get reqs to make your decision. (which I hope you reconsider to ban because all the no ban arguments are honestly bad IMO)

 

[R8]

Bird nuked
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-national-dex-suspect-2-espathra.3716595/page-3#post-9516091