Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Kingambit has been a threat since the minute it had dropped into the metagame, being an evolution of Bisharp, a Pokemon that was already extremely powerful. Access to a solid typing and great natural bulk allows for numerous opportunities to set up with Swords Dance. Coupled with a new ability in Supreme Overlord, and Sucker Punch to make up for its lackluster Speed stat, it has all the tools it needs to become a major threat when it enters the field. It instantly became a staple on both Steel- and Dark-type teams, both of which provide Kingambit with solid support, allowing it to setup with ease. Dark teams provide excellent support for Kingambit, between solid defensive walls such as Mandibuzz and Sableye, tanks like Ting-Lu that can spam hazards, and offensive threats like Greninja and Meowscarada, it has no shortage of help on the type. Similar to Dark, Steel teams also provide a solid defensive core with Skarmory/Corviknight + Gholdengo + Heatran comprising the vaunted immunity core that is also able to support Kingambit with hazards that can be maintained. While Kingambit has minimal set diversity apart from coverage options such as Low Kick to hit other Darks and Steels, but the one role it can play is more than dangerous enough to make up for the lack of diversity.
However, it's not all sunshine and roses for Kingambit. While its Steel/Dark typing provide a plethora of immunities/resistances, it does leave it wide open to Fighting-type attacks being 4x weak to them. This on top of its low speed, means any solidly healthy Fighting-type is capable of checking Kingambit, such as Great Tusk or Iron Valiant, due to the fact it can't actively threaten them with Sucker Punch and is easily KOed by their STAB attacks. Additionally, Kingambit can easily be burnt by faster foes preventing it from being as threatening as a late-game sweeper. Finally, Substitute 'mons can limit the threat of Sucker Punch and force uncomfortable 50/50s for Kingambit if they can threaten it offensively.
Kingambit has been on the forefront of discussions ever since its introduction, now the council is finally giving the community a chance to determine its fate via a suspect test. With your thoughts and your vote, now is the time to find out.
Members of the council have been encouraged to give their thoughts on Kingambit, those can be found below.
Ken said:
While I think the hype surrounding Kingambit is a little more overblown than what’s been played out in actual games more often than not, I understand the community’s thoughts surrounding the potential unhealthiness. I think it has the potential to be unhealthy, but I don’t think it’s broken by any means, so given the overwhelming sentiment that Kingambit should be under a microscope for tiering action, I support suspecting it in order to see what the community believes its fate should be.
The ability of Kingambitt to reverse sweep a game easely is now not a secret. I think is place in the metagame is too centralizing for a healthy meta, that's why I'm for making a suspect test. I will vote ban
Kingambit finds itself often being too much of an overbearing endgame cleaner that requires a lot from the opponent in terms of checking it in both builder and in-game, and often with the right set Kingambit is able to bypass these few counterplay choices in the meta. For that reason I believe it deserves a suspect.
Kingambit is an insane late-game sweeper, with 4-5 allies dead, an adamant nature, and damage-boosting items like black glasses, there are very few pokemon that can comfortably take kingambit on after a swords dance. its solid natural bulk and defensive typing allow it to easily setup and become a major threat. def worth a suspect.
It's nearly impossible to think about SV and not think about King of Gambits. I understand how people would claim that the conjunction of traits this mon has pushes it over the line of "competitiveness", but in all seriousness, I can't bring myself to agree with it... or at least not yet. Sure, it has a stupid ability, swords dance and crazy bulk for an attacker but I feel that the prime issue is less about gambit itself, and more about how players (myself included) tend to panic and struggle how to build a gameplan when facing it. Currently, I am inclined to vote not ban, but I would love to see the arguments that the ban party will bring to the table.
Undeniably the best sweeper in the tier for me, and it is enabled to an unhealthy degree by multiple factors. Both types that can use it are able to set a copious amount of hazards while having methods to block removal in Sableye/Gholdengo, and a solid defensive backbone in general to match. Finally, being able to dispose of its teammates only strengthens it due to its ability, and it can easily run through worn-out teams after a single Swords Dance.
Kingambit rewards risky and sometimes suboptimal plays in the early game by being so effective in the late game once multiple party members are dead. With priority and respectable bulk there are some types that have few or no answers to stop Kingambit from sweeping
Feel free to post in this thread with your thoughts on Kingambit in Monotype. You are encouraged to post replays to prove your point.
In order to cast a vote in this suspect test, you must participate on the [Gen 9] Monotype ladder in which Kingambit will continue to be allowed. You must make a new account to ladder with. This account's registration date must be at earliest the day this suspect begins. You must prefix your account name with the tag: KGMS8 in order for your account to qualify.
Acceptable:
KGMS8 Maroon
Unacceptable:
Maroon KGMS8
You have to reach a COIL of 2650 in order to get reqs. For reference, the B-value for this suspect will be 12. Do not reset your game count on your suspect laddering alt. The suspect test will last two weeks until Thursday August 22nd @ 11:59 PM EDT (GMT -4). You will then have three days to cast your vote. Kingambit will require a 60% majority of voters in favor of banning it in order for it to be banned from Monotype.
Upon meeting the requirements, you must post proof of the qualification in the Voter Identification thread, which is separate from this thread and will be created closer to the end of the suspect. Do not post your proof in this discussion thread.
You may use this thread to discuss this Kingambit suspect or ask for clarification for any questions you may have. You may not use this thread to post one-liners or discuss topics unrelated to this specific suspect, such as possible future suspects. Please stay respectful when you post and follow all Monotype forum rules. Please also make sure to follow the Monotype tiering philosophy found here.
Same deal as last time. You may not use this thread to post one-liners or discuss topics unrelated to this specific suspect, such as possible future suspects. I will personally be strictly inforcing this rule, any posts violating this are subject to infraction!
Reminder suspect reqs have changed this time around. You have to reach a COIL of 2650 in order to get reqs. For reference, the B-value for this suspect will be 12. Do not reset your game count on your suspect laddering alt.
I didn't respond to the council thoughts above bc my power was out but my hotspot is finally not being aids so let me tell you all why the childish gambito should no longer be in the tier.
So more obvious stuff first:
- Revenge mechanics are simply not healthy. Being potentially rewarded for getting behind in a game is not something that should happen.
- Excellent stats with the only poor one being speed mitigated by a STAB Dark(one of the best offensive types) prio move.
- On pre much the best type in the tier and as such has some of the best support in the tier in mainly Ghold(Fight immune, removal blocker) but skarm(j another fight check) and arch(t wave can b quite helpful late game). Obviously everything benefits from hazard stack+ghold but specifically a layer or two of hazards paired that cant be removed paired w +2 atk, +3-5 overlord, +glasses is specifically crazy and many things that may have avoided sucker range w/o the one layer of spikes or rocks now die.
So, does the above make kingambit broken or uncompetitive, as defined by tiering definitions? Well, most people say no, and I actually agree.
However, pokemon is a nuanced game, and I don't think tiering is as black and white as those definitions are made to say. Furthermore, whenever those definitions were put together they were probably for OU, and monotype isn't just another usage tier that functions under the same or a similar set of circumstances as OU. Steel's centralization in monotype is at its peak(and i believe without action will continue to rise), and MPL's usage stats back this up, having the most uses of any type by a significant margin, bar flying which had the same number of uses but a win rate of 45% compared to Steel's 60%. Also, in my own experience I think Steel is at the forefront of my mind when building only comparable to specifically Zamazenta(not saying this is broken, just saying i ALWAYS have id zama in mind when building). All this to say I think Steel is way too centralizing and it needs to have something taken from it to have any chance of creating an ideal tier(the purpose of tiering in my eyes).
Relating it back to the OU example, and why these definitions cannot be interchangably used between usage tiers and mono; As an example, I think it far less "centralizing" for say Zamazenta to be on 40% of OU teams than it is Steel to be the most used type by a significant margin with a solid winrate. For one being forced to run Steel is a lot more tragic than being forced to use Zama+5 whatever other mons. Furthermore, not using Zama or w/e it may be in OU is not a bad idea for lots of teams, but actually not using Steel, for as ridiculously good as it is right now, can be a bad idea. I don't think theres truly ever a reason to not use Steel outside of your opponent being like a Fire mainer or wanting to avoid mirrors, and to me, that sucks for Monotype being what it is.
Not every type needs to viable, but Steel should not be as good as it is. Kingambit is the most problomatic mon on the type, and combined w the obvious reasons listed above and this tangent about tiering, I think monotype becomes healthier without the mon, and thats what I mainly care about when thinking about actions to take.
i was originally pro ban, and after doing some thinking i think im on the fence, leaning a bit more towards dnb. i hate laddering / doing reqs so i wont bother doing them (maybe i will) but i still wanted to leave my thoughts. the reason i started deliberating about kingambit was bc of chaits sentence about it holding the tier together in the council thoughts.
conceptually and on paper, i do think kingambit is a broken mon. in practice its a different story, but i dont want to get into the nitty gritty of competitiveness right now. a meta without kingambit would probably be pretty out of control. ghost would become extremely good. namely flutter mane (a mon people are already annoyed with), dragapult, spectrier, and gholdengo (a mon that people are also annoyed with). 3 of these mons fit on teams / structures that arent just ghost so the meta will likely become warped around these threats. not only that, i personally feel that archaludon becomes scarier as well since its not forced to run body press. there isnt really a universe where i wouldnt run it anyway, but you can probably more easily justify more offensive archaludons, different coverage over body press, or something like sturdy mirror coat can become more common, all on a mon that a lot of people want gone too (or at least i think so). theres probably more that becomes a bit chaotic but these are just examples off the top of my head and something i think people should consider before voting ban. since i dont get reqs i dont ever care about the outcomes of suspects cuz i have no right to but yea probably not a great idea at the moment
This suspect is the first suspect I have ever done, and I wanted to make it a good experience out of it. (Did not lol).
anyways kingambit has always been a meta staple since its debut, and as of right now is carrying the viability of monodark after the urshifu ban and chien pao ban, I personally do not want to ban it because it would just send monodark to the trash imo…
But anyways, in this run I asked for some help from various players of the mono community to help me build a mono steel team, and even though steel isn’t horrible without gambit, gambit still carried every single game where it was not goobed by a random body press.
many mons like Skarmory and bolt frequently run speed investment just for gambit, and body press are everywhere wherever I went, probably for gambit as well.
as we can all see, gambit is definitely warping the tier around it.
But for the sake of not nerfing my favorite mono again I’ll vote no ban, unless somebody can sway me with their opinion, this suspect took 74 games and I want to make my vote count.
I got my reqs earlier today and I’ll be voting no ban for this suspect test.
Kingambit is a strong mon and the best setup sweeper in the tier. However, I believe the narrative that Kingambit can easily reverse sweep is a bit misleading. To pull off the reverse sweeps that we have seen (whether you’re on the receiving end or doing the reverse sweeping yourself), you have to setup the game to be able to do that. It’s not as simple as sack 5 mons then click SD for the win. This becomes especially harder when the opponent is positioning themselves to keep Gambit in check through phazing or scaring it out with various mons and/or sets that threaten Gambit.
Also, Kingambit is not like Chien Pao where people are dedicating an item slot to have a chance vs it. Just like Pigbeeef mentioned above, there’s Body Press and other Fighting coverage looming through the tier to keep a Gambit player on their toes. Along with Gambit getting speed crept similar to how people running 263+ speed to not get slept by Breloom for over a decade. Obviously, Breloom isn’t near Kingambit’s level but it has a familiar level of oppression and consideration in the team builder.
Also, most of the “50/50s” that people overthink and mind game themselves over aren’t even true 50/50s. That full HP Kingambit is unlikely to click Sucker Punch or SD against that Flutter Mane, it’s almost definitely clicking Iron Head regardless of what you click. That Steel player is never letting you Sucker Punch their Gholdengo with your Kingambit. I’m not saying it completely cut and dry. Each scenario plays out differently depending on game state and there are some true 50/50s that will determine who wins the game or gets put into an advantageous position.
Kingambit is strong but it isn’t as tier warping as you might think. It can win a game but not before setting the stage for it to shine as the “King of Comebacks”. You still have to play a good game to fully utilize Kingambit and that’s why I think it should stay within the tier.
comeback mechanics are stupid by definition in my opinion, but whether or not it's stupid doesn't make it unbalanced or broken. counterplay is not only splashable but rewards good building habits and keeps other pokemon in check indirectly by forcing them to run certain coverage (body press on archaludon, focus blast on lando-i to name a few), others will run substitute or encore to take advantage of sucker punch that also sacrifices coverage. simply put, a metagame without kingambit allows flexibility to already extremely pokemon, flutter mane is no longer forced out by kingambit, archaludon unlocks more set variety as sasha mentioned, checks to powerful ghosts such as spectrier and gholdengo suddenly disappear. In even more niche examples, no longer will certain mons have to run literally any fighting coverage they can, low kick greninja on scarf sets come to mind, as do colbur brick break metagross sets on psychic. this isn't a pro-ban argument either, in my opinion it's healthy to force certain pokemon to run coverage because they very well rather be running something different, all while still being very viable options to keeping kingambit in check.
generally, sasha and jahkem have done a good job of explaining the consequences the tier faces and the nuances of "kingambit 50/50s" respectively, however as azick has mentioned, it's pretty clear the steel type needs a nerf. its win rate is absolutely insane and should continue to rise, the flexibility and options steel has is absolutely insane, not to mention the millions of options you can run as a scarfer which helps the builder dictate matchups, but i will explain why i think kingambit is the wrong choice for this.
steel does not become an unviable type without kingambit (obviously), and would likely to see increased use in scizor (or the kingambit we dealt with since gen 6, bisharp) as an option to still threaten flutter mane consistently, however I believe kingambit adds too much value to the tier and having it as a threat on steel. having a ghost resist on steel is extremely valuable and gives steel a solid matchup against ghost, especially with the consideration of kingambit being immune to sableye's wisp. ghost is held back and kept in check almost solely by kingambit, other than the fast dark types that can appear on dark and of course a few other types. so how do you nerf steel without significantly damaging the metagame into a centralized meta around strong ghosts that can appear on several types? i think archaludon and gholdengo are both pokemon that can be looked at it that aren't necessary to hold the tier together, regardless as discussing other suspect targets is not allowed, i will not, however kingambit is healthy and good for the tier and if we believe nerfing steel is necessary, there are other ways to go about it.
to kind of bounce off some of the above statements i think it's totally fair to vote dnb on kingambit and also believe that its a demanding, in fact very demanding pokemon in this tier. remember we banned baxcalibur because, in short, it clicked sd once and the game was over. gambit is not that overwhelming level of unhealthiness. of course, like a handful of other S ranked mons in the tier kingambit requires a lot to take down, but not to the point that we saw with baxcalibur, urshifu-s, ursaluna-bm, etc.
gambit is not necessarily a centralizing force in the meta. for example, you don't run body press on your corviknight/skarmory/archaludon solely because of kingambit. other mons run fighting/ground/steel coverage as well that are for other things besides gambit as well. even if kingambit gets banned body press on corviknight and the other aforementioned mons will see almost the same usage. all of the types NOT listed in the low tier ladder tournament all have ways to naturally and feasibly deal with gambit, except maybe there is an argument for ghost. of the types listed in the low tier ladder tournament, a few of them also have the tools to naturally and feasibly deal with gambit.
Also, most of the “50/50s” that people overthink and mind game themselves over aren’t even true 50/50s. That full HP Kingambit is unlikely to click Sucker Punch or SD against that Flutter Mane, it’s almost definitely clicking Iron Head regardless of what you click. That Steel player is never letting you Sucker Punch their Gholdengo with your Kingambit. I’m not saying it completely cut and dry. Each scenario plays out differently depending on game state and there are some true 50/50s that will determine who wins the game or gets put into an advantageous position.
jahkem hit the nail on the head with this, my original post had a similar breakdown, but i need not repeat something that was already said so well. but you do also have to account for the true 50/50s that arise with a mon like this. that is just the nature of the game we play. similar 50/50s arise with other demanding mons in this tier such as gouging fire, iron valiant and gliscor.
i will be voting do not ban but i am open to considering the inevitable ban arguments that arise in the coming days. i think this vote is going to be extremely close and every vote will matter.
a meta without kingambit would probably be pretty out of control. ghost would become extremely good. namely flutter mane (a mon people are already annoyed with), dragapult, spectrier, and gholdengo (a mon that people are also annoyed with). 3 of these mons fit on teams / structures that arent just ghost so the meta will likely become warped around these threats. not only that, i personally feel that archaludon becomes scarier as well since its not forced to run body press. there isnt really a universe where i wouldnt run it anyway, but you can probably more easily justify more offensive archaludons, different coverage over body press, or something like sturdy mirror coat can become more common, all on a mon that a lot of people want gone too (or at least i think so). theres probably more that becomes a bit chaotic but these are just examples off the top of my head and something i think people should consider before voting ban. since i dont get reqs i dont ever care about the outcomes of suspects cuz i have no right to but yea probably not a great idea at the moment
I don't like so much this argument, because Flutter Mane and Gholdengo are suspect material themselves. Getting into the dynamic of not taking action in regards to one mon because the other mons are also too strong doesn't help competitiveness imo. The issues with these mons are the precision that you have to move with when fighting them. If you ever get on a close call or a scarfed mon to which Gambit can switch in and press Swords Dance, you are at least into a mindgame where KG can mash sucker punch 8 times and be an extreme nuissance. You have much more to lose when facing it as not only threatens to kill several mons of your team but also being pretty difficult to kill if you don't have the fighting move and enough damage. Being so bulky makes it low risk and high reward while making comebacks for absolutely zero skill display. Being in such a delicate position where taking damage on your tank can mean you no longer have a guaranteed kill on the gamble puts pressure on you by the mon just existing in the other team. While other mons have a general weakness which can be a vulnerable side (def, spd) and several weaknesses, for kg you need to make sure the mon that carries a fighting type move stays healthy and has enough stats to survive the gamble.
The counterplay is even more difficult on teams that don't have such a powerful typing where there can be creative solutions and strategies to beat the meta mons but have no chance at dealing with this one
So I guess someone else needs to make a ban post. After 5 days of trying to get something good out I've got this. If I'm being honest this might be my worst work for a suspect, but I just want to get this out at this point.
I'll start with the fact that there is counter play to Kingambit and good stuff at that but it can feel constraining a lot of the time to reliably have said checks. A lot of times it feels like by default I go "Alright, time to put on a Fighting-type, a mon with Bodypress/fighting-type coverage or some status to move to bluff sucker on." And it can end up feeling up my options being limited overall. Like I know its a cliche from me but it can feel restricting on Poison teams to be forced to run Sneasler/Okidogi because I can't afford much else to really check Gambit or having to play Speed Creep wars with my Skarmory/Corviknight so it can out speed fully invested Gambit because Gambit has invested to out speed them just can feel awful.
Especially since Gambit also has all the support to wear down its checks, it is on the best hazard stacking type in the tier in Steel, its got the best blocker, amazing hazard setters and incredible offensive pressure. There is a good chance that when Gambit gets in, your check to it is likely going to be chipped already unless you played the entire game with a mon stuck in the back pocket which might just cause you more issues.
Or it could be on Dark, which is still a relevant type as it did see a reasonable bit of usage in MPL (18 total games, not counting for the usage stats not having all of them) which is also a type that has solid hazard stacking and different offensive pressure which will force you to change up how you check Gambit and can make checks that would work on Steel, not work.
And two last brief things.
- Supreme Overlord. This ability is stupid. Moving on.
- Folks in Mono Room, please stop using Ghost being possibly problematic as a defense for Gambit. I'm getting Gouging Fire Suspect Flashbacks, stop.
I don't like so much this argument, because Flutter Mane and Gholdengo are suspect material themselves. Getting into the dynamic of not taking action in regards to one mon because the other mons are also too strong doesn't help competitiveness imo. The issues with these mons are the precision that you have to move with when fighting them. If you ever get on a close call or a scarfed mon to which Gambit can switch in and press Swords Dance, you are at least into a mindgame where KG can mash sucker punch 8 times and be an extreme nuissance. You have much more to lose when facing it as not only threatens to kill several mons of your team but also being pretty difficult to kill if you don't have the fighting move and enough damage. Being so bulky makes it low risk and high reward while making comebacks for absolutely zero skill display. Being in such a delicate position where taking damage on your tank can mean you no longer have a guaranteed kill on the gamble puts pressure on you by the mon just existing in the other team. While other mons have a general weakness which can be a vulnerable side (def, spd) and several weaknesses, for kg you need to make sure the mon that carries a fighting type move stays healthy and has enough stats to survive the gamble.
The counterplay is even more difficult on teams that don't have such a powerful typing where there can be creative solutions and strategies to beat the meta mons but have no chance at dealing with this one
Yea I mean I understand why KG feels broken and I myself literally said I think it's an unskill mon. I've even made multiple posts in the metagame threads with the same points you made about why I think KG should've been banned back then. My point was that I would prioritize a healthier meta as I think banning Kingambit would be a net negative for the Metagame. Hence why I said the meta would become out of control IMO. As you said, Ghold and Mane are suspect worthy themselves, not to mention the other mons I mentioned could become very suspect worthy too, so if you remove Kingambit thats 2+ suspects people would want relatively quickly. On top of that, if the suspects don't happen quickly, then we're stuck with a meta that's worse off than one with KG in it for an undefined amount of time. A mon holding a tier together is a very viable argument and claim since it still addresses the metagame and its health, you can see similar arguments in other tiering discussions here and here, so I don't really get why people think its a nonsensical thing to bring up. I can understand how people think this is a theorymon argument which I don't really disagree with but I still think it's valid enough to form a proper argument on. I don't think either side is right or wrong, I would be happy to see KG go and play a new meta even if it's chaotic, but my reason for a DNB stance would just be keeping the meta as is rn since it feels relatively balanced in my opinion.
a meta without kingambit would probably be pretty out of control. ghost would become extremely good. namely flutter mane (a mon people are already annoyed with), dragapult, spectrier, and gholdengo (a mon that people are also annoyed with). 3 of these mons fit on teams / structures that arent just ghost so the meta will likely become warped around these threats
ok, i'll just say this. Kingambit should be banned. It's typing is just a little overpowered, and it's ability is litteraly overpowered. combine that with swords dance and sucker punch stab, and this thing becomes too annoying. it's made dark and steel teams too overpowered.
Yea I mean I understand why KG feels broken and I myself literally said I think it's an unskill mon. I've even made multiple posts in the metagame threads with the same points you made about why I think KG should've been banned back then. My point was that I would prioritize a healthier meta as I think banning Kingambit would be a net negative for the Metagame. Hence why I said the meta would become out of control IMO. As you said, Ghold and Mane are suspect worthy themselves, not to mention the other mons I mentioned could become very suspect worthy too, so if you remove Kingambit thats 2+ suspects people would want relatively quickly. On top of that, if the suspects don't happen quickly, then we're stuck with a meta that's worse off than one with KG in it for an undefined amount of time. A mon holding a tier together is a very viable argument and claim since it still addresses the metagame and its health, you can see similar arguments in other tiering discussions here and here, so I don't really get why people think its a nonsensical thing to bring up. I can understand how people think this is a theorymon argument which I don't really disagree with but I still think it's valid enough to form a proper argument on. I don't think either side is right or wrong, I would be happy to see KG go and play a new meta even if it's chaotic, but my reason for a DNB stance would just be keeping the meta as is rn since it feels relatively balanced in my opinion.
It would still be possible to do their suspects and ban them all at the same time, if needed. Tho honestly, Gliscor and Flutter Mane might be even more problematic
Given I've got my reqs I thought I'd chip in here.
I will most likely be voting ban on Kingambit as I think the metagame will be better without it. I feel it is overly restricing in both the builder and while piloting, and while you can play around it the way the meta is warped is a degree that I believe is unreasonable. I am not saying it is impossible to prepare for or wins every game single handedly (though it certainly is a win condition that has swept uncounted games), but there is a reason that Steel is dominant at the moment. In my opinion that reason is mostly down to it being very hard to keep a Kingambit check/counter healthy throughout the game while dealing with the rest of the Steel team, especially if the answer has to come in on a blackglasses Kowtow Cleave with hazards up, even something as physically bulky as Skarmory can struggle. The previous bans have brought down the power level of the format a little, but it still is not in a completely healthy place and so Kingambit needs to go, if Kingambit was the only thing checking certain threats (i don't believe this to be the case, you can always run Goodra-h on steel to beat special attacking ghosts) then those threats can go next, but for now the clear path towards a healthy metagame in my mind is to ban Kingambit.
Currently mixed feelings. As it stands I'll likely wait and see if the vote concludes before the last day so I don't need to vote myself, and if that doesn't happen by the last voting day I'll probs vote either DNB or just do a /pick for a coinflip to be honest.
I don't agree with the statement that Kingambit is holding the tier together. I've seen some people suggest that it's in one way or another keeping certain threats in check, and from my experience this is simply not true. That being said I also think there are plenty of ways to showcase the fact that dark and steel both aren't reliant on Gambit for their success as types, me personally I use a gambitless dark alot at upper-high ladder simply cause it's fun and I want to use Crawdaunt. Even though such an example isn't really indicative of a gambitless meta, where the pressure in the builder from gambit will be gone and therefore replaced with some other mons that become the demons we worry about, I still bring it up because honestly I don't know if I completely agree with the statement that a gambit ban is the way to nerf Steel or to help balance the meta. When I see the problem with Steel, it's moreso the fact that you have Steel's classic immunity core, which is enhanced with the ability to completely control the field from Gholdengo preventing hazard removal, and supported with Archaludon acting as a linchpin to complete the defensive monstrosity that is Steel and not only answer top threats such as Ogerpon, but act as such a barrier in of itself to many of the tiers main sweepers and wallbreakers. Dark as it is right now I think is a perfectly healthy type, so ultimately I see the main problem with Gambit to be the support it gets from Steel not only alleviating pressure in game but helping setup it's sweep with spikes and rocks support. I'd agree Gambit is a problem mon, but if we had to make a common sense plan to fix the tier I'd rather focus on Archaludon first or Gouging Fire which I think more than enough people have reestablished as a problem figure. I also do agree with points on Gliscor, but all these other suggestions are really meant for a different thread.
I don't agree with the statement that Kingambit is holding the tier together. I've seen some people suggest that it's in one way or another keeping certain threats in check, and from my experience this is simply not true.
Even if this were true I question the premise that this is in of itself sound reasoning for keeping a mon in the tier. This isn't OU, and it'd be a pretty dumb line of non-argument there as well if not for Tera.
If the difference between Kingambit and [perennial A-tier and 85% the same exact mon] Bisharp is vast enough that something like Flutter Mane would supposedly run rampant over the tier in the absence of one and not the other, that seems like a pretty obvious sign to me that Gambit is distorting the natural direction of the tier by keeping unhealthy shit in. In that sense it seems to me that if Gambit is healthy as all, it's healthy in the same sense as putting a bandage over a broken arm.
i don't really have an opinion on whether or not it should stay or go (I personally think the mon is stupid, but not the point), but to me the major reasons people have presented for Kingambit being broken on Steel seem to read like reasons to potentially address Gholdengo instead. Is Gambit as the beneficiary of the immunity core a worse offender than Gholdengo which enables it to an even larger extent than Aegislash used to? I don't know.
ghost would become extremely good. namely flutter mane (a mon people are already annoyed with), dragapult, spectrier, and gholdengo (a mon that people are also annoyed with). 3 of these mons fit on teams / structures that arent just ghost so the meta will likely become warped around these threats
ghost is held back and kept in check almost solely by kingambit, other than the fast dark types that can appear on dark and of course a few other types.
I dispute the claim that Ghost would become too strong with Kingambit gone. If the argument is that Kingambit is one of a few (if not the only) Pokemon that keeps Ghost in check, it would sure be a shame if you were running any of the 16 types that do not have access to Kingambit. Ghost is widely considered a mid-tier type, and a single Pokemon cannot be the only reason why.
In fact, Ghost is terrible vs Normal, struggles vs Ground, disadvantaged vs rain, and still loses to Dark even with Gambit gone. Having less-than-reliable hazard setters, a distressing shortage of hazard removers, and a defensive backbone made of paper is hardly a recipe for success.
Would Ghost become better with Gambit gone? Sure. But there is no reason to believe it would become unhealthy, nor should votes for this suspect be cast based on the suspicion that it might.
I'm clearly uncertain on my vote atm, I relate a LOT with TheWyvernKing's post above.
I did the suspect with this dark : ( https://pokepast.es/aa101ec3d42920b4 ) to help me see if Gambit deserves the ban or not. It's a weird case at least for me, I never had the impression that the Pokemon was broken in Dark since the Chien-Pao ban : I just considered it as a top tier threat but not overwhelming, not surprinsing if suspect tested and not susprising if not either.
I'm more under the impression that steel itself is the culprit, with gholdengo + immu/defensive core + hazard stack. Kingambit just find itself good because it's fricking gambit I mean we all know what this monster does at this point and playing, especially vs steel, without losing hp on key mons (so less options) because you'll lose is really tough. Dark have the same issue with the hazard stack + sableye core but have a lot more weaknesses overall (+ stuck to offense variants with the protean brothers + stuff) and seems way more manageable reasonably for me.
I'm under the impression that it's Gholdengo (and Archaludon to an extend) the issue, but I can't understate how good Gambit is : I don't agree with the statement that this mon is holding the tier together. I don't think he's mandatory in both types but just too good in his own right to not want to play the king : crazy wincond and just limit a lot your opponant options if they don't want to know the "fallen 5 you know the vibes".
Finally, I don't care if Gholdengo or Flutter Mane will become out of control after a potential Gambit ban : it's not my problem here, and for me both mons are just overpowered and unhealthy anyway.
That's why I don't know yet what I'll do, I just wanted to expose what are my thoughts on the matter right now.
Good laddering for the last ones !!
Hello, I decided I'd take some of my time to share what my personal thoughts were when looking at this suspect.
Is Kingambit Broken ?
Kingambit is a very strong mon which has always seen great usage and decent results in tours and on ladder. This is an obvious observation, and I doubt anyone with a clear mind would argue with me up to this point. However, this statement alone could not be further from dictating if it is deserving to be called broken or not.
Can it win games on the spot ? No, when did it ever ? It has won many games for steel in the end but that's just a bad argument, of course the mon that is so often labeled as a "cleaner" is going to clean in most games you've won.
Is Kingambit's counterplay scarce/lacking ? Overall no, although it is somewhat true for niche types (Psychic and ghost), Kingambit has very exploitable flaws (4x fight weakness, Low speed, and while sucker is a strong move it still will lose to wisp/sub)
Say you decide to run a type without Gambit, while your opponent does, would you necessarily have a lesser chance to win ? Arguably not because counterplay exists.
Is Kingambit Uncompetitive ?
I would usually quickly dismiss that idea because it's unusual for a pokemon to be uncompetitive when luck is almost non-existent from within its kit (unlike G-Moltres in SS, an iron head flinch is unlikely to happen), I saw two point that brings up Kingambit's uncompetitiveness:
It's ability rewards your opponent from "playing bad", and the pokemon itself forces 50/50s.
I strongly disagree with both. First off, while yes it's true that your opponent will get some value from you trying to progress in the game and get some kills in, this very rarely will out value one of their pokemon's life. They can't just sack 5 and win, nor can they sack 1 and win, because even if the sacked mon was useless in the matchup, a 10% damage boost will rarely be a game changer. In my eyes, it would be problematic if steel was a type that had a very potent ability to force you to trade mons with theirs, but that's not really the case since it wants to keep its defensive core as long as it can. Second off, you are not forced into 50/50 situations most of the time against gambit. It is your fault as a player if the Kingambit got in such situation/it's the opponent that managed to create such situation. Skill is the only factor that defines whether you got in a 50/50
Is Kingambit too centralizing ? What does a ban brings to the tier ?
I think that's the biggest point that was made, and repeated again and again. "Kingambit forces you to run a Kingambit check", "Whenever I build, I have to think about how to deal Kingambit", and while these statements are true to an extent... I don't really see the point, because I believe what I've said above still stand. There are going to be strong mons in just about every tier that will make you think about them when you build, the question is whether it does that in an unhealthy way. For exemple, does Urshifu, Keldeo, Quaquaval or Dondozo hold no value outside of checking Kingambit ? No. Kingambit encourages the use of fighting types because it's a metagame staple, not because it's too strong. Not to mention that the counterplay options are pretty numerous in most types for monotype standards.
I think it's funny to count how many types would still fold against Bisharp if they dropped their Kingambit checks after the ban. I don't think Kingambit is broken or uncompetitive, nor do I think the metagame would significantly shift for the better if a ban were to happen. As such, I will be voting Do Not Ban.
I dispute the claim that Ghost would become too strong with Kingambit gone. If the argument is that Kingambit is one of a few (if not the only) Pokemon that keeps Ghost in check, it would sure be a shame if you were running any of the 16 types that do not have access to Kingambit. Ghost is widely considered a mid-tier type, and a single Pokemon cannot be the only reason why.
In fact, Ghost is terrible vs Normal, struggles vs Ground, disadvantaged vs rain, and still loses to Dark even with Gambit gone. Having less-than-reliable hazard setters, a distressing shortage of hazard removers, and a defensive backbone made of paper is hardly a recipe for success.
Would Ghost become better with Gambit gone? Sure. But there is no reason to believe it would become unhealthy, nor should votes for this suspect be cast based on the suspicion that it might.
It feels a little disingenuous to pick apart my argument as just saying "Mono Ghost" when in the excerpt you quoted from me explicitly says they fit on archtypes that aren't just Mono Ghost teams and those structures tend to be the ones they are on more commonly / see more play. Ghost type threats that are already being questioned or on the fence of being unhealthy are most definitely going to become incredibly threatening when one of the bulkier checks with both a fairy killing move and priority is gone. I would not argue for specific types being stronger or better because well that's not really a valid stance to take..don't rly feel like going more in depth with that but ye felt like you misconstrued my words a bit. Also don't necessarily see what your point was regardless since you didn't take a stance on Kingambit. Arguing in favor of meta health to me is very valid so shutting down that argument by saying it's not important for this suspect also feels again disingenuous
It feels a little disingenuous to pick apart my argument as just saying "Mono Ghost" when in the excerpt you quoted from me explicitly says they fit on archtypes that aren't just Mono Ghost teams and those structures tend to be the ones they are on more commonly / see more play. Ghost type threats that are already being questioned or on the fence of being unhealthy are most definitely going to become incredibly threatening when one of the bulkier checks with both a fairy killing move and priority is gone. I would not argue for specific types being stronger or better because well that's not really a valid stance to take..don't rly feel like going more in depth with that but ye felt like you misconstrued my words a bit. Also don't necessarily see what your point was regardless since you didn't take a stance on Kingambit. Arguing in favor of meta health to me is very valid so shutting down that argument by saying it's not important for this suspect also feels again disingenuous
It appears from your post that you are no longer talking about Ghost teams, given that the mons you listed "see more play on other structures/types." So looking at that list, we can remove Spectrier since it is only on Ghost. We can also remove Dragapult since it did not make it on the survey (and not an honorable mention) and is generally regarded as not broken, and finally we can remove Gholdengo since it was rated at well below the neutral 3/5 on the survey - not to mention that the main reason it is controversial (i.e. blocking hazard removal) has little to do with Gambit anyway.
So that leaves us with just Flutter Mane, something supported by your specifically mentioning Gambit having a "fairy killing move." And since Gambit doesn't run a fairy killing move on Steel, I think we can focus our discussion to Flutter Mane on Fairy vs Kingambit on Dark.
Now it is true that aside from Muk-Alola, Scarf Meowscarada, Scarf Roaring Moon, Scarf H-Samurott, Scarf Hoopa-U, Eviolite Bisharp, Lokix, and Heavy Slam Ting-Lu, Kingambit is one of the best answers to Flutter Mane on Dark. But again, the suspicion that one Pokemon on one particular type would become too strong against one other particular type is not really a good reason to vote one way or another, and tiering policy is pretty clear that a type being too weak is ok. Besides, since none of us have played in a gambitless meta, we don't know for sure how it will pan out anyway. After Chien-Pao was banned, people (including me) said that Flying would be OP, and MPL win rates don't entirely agree with that prediction.
Anyway, my main claim is that Ghost (types) being strong is not a convincing reason why Kingambit should not be banned as it is neither a correct nor relevant argument. To be clear, there are valid reasons on both sides, but this is not one of them. As for why I didn't take a stance on Kingambit, how I plan to vote does not matter in the context of this discussion, and in any case I'm not trying to convince anybody to vote either way.
After doing my suspect by using almost only steel, I want to talk a bit about my opinion with kingambitt
I already said I would vote ban in the council thought, for the reason I think the mon is too centralize. By this point I mean if u don't have an answer to gambitt, a gameplan in ur build etc, ur team is not optimize. For exemple I personnaly always use hdb on my urshifu in water cuz if I don't it's easy for the player of gambitt to put me in range.
I understand people who think it's not really a problem cuz u have solution to manage gambitt, sometimes it's pretty dumb (s/o flamigo upper hands) but well if it works, nobody cares. Now I don't think having a meta where it's mandatory to prep too much against the same mon again and again (especially when gambitt have a super easy access to an hazard support and a fight immune), is something healthy. Also when u look the mu chart of the "trash type" it's easy to understand gambitt help a lot to make this type trash (psychic/grass/ice/rock/u have to play okidogi in poison/u have to play slither wing or pray for winning the sucker god with volcarona in bug). But I have to be honnest with this last part, gambitt is not alone, and I don't think the ban will change something except probably a bit for psychic where gambitt is just almost always a ff.
I have to talk a bit about how dumb are the miror of steel and dark, it's pretty almost who will win the tie vs gambitt or who have the jolly gambitt. It looks like the gen 8 lc when u had mienfoo vs mienfoo who click the same button and the one who won the good tie take the advantage :skull: .
Nah and also where is the skill with this mon, u can be passive all ur game and just put ur gambitt click sd and see u opponent drool on (true story it's 33% of my winning). That's all for why I will vote ban.
Now tbh, if gambitt stay in the tier I don't see that like a shame or something like that. It's not like gouging fire where I was and I'm still convince it was the best way. A good player know how manage gambitt, cuz the mon is really predictible and well ok gambitt centralize a lot but it's not the only one and probably not the most banworthy. I just don't think it's a good mon as centralizer like lando-t in ss ou or corvi/teela in ss mono, I mean flutter is already dumb and gholdengo too, fight isn't play only because of gambitt (clearly not), etc. On this point it will have no change imo. Dark will stay a good type, maybe lesser but in tournament u bring dark not because of gambitt and same for steel, it's not the strenght of steel. Nah again I see gambitt as the easy solutionn of ur team, cuz whatever the mu or the situation with him u still have a decent wincond (except vs fight)
After a long 7 months of using Steel after the most recent ban in this format, I have an AWFUL lot to talk about. I know my opinion would be the last thing people would want to see, but please hear me out just a TINY bit.
I personally believe that Kingambit is quite broken, not as broken as Gouging Fire or Iron Valiant, but broken in the sense that it can and has crippled the Ghost type and part of Psychic type as sasha and had previously mentioned. Kingambit requires a LOT of thinking to play around as it can run numerous sets to foil possible counters towards it, and often forcing other types to have at LEAST one Fighting-type on their teams out of fear that a Kingambit may pop up, as someone previously mentioned, making it much more challenging for other types who struggle to beat it, especially if they require set up. Now thats not to say that Kingambit is broken because of its somewhat overwhelming presence, but the fact that Kingambit can effectively sweep with the help of Supreme Overlord ON TOP OF Swords Dance???, seems a bit much, dont you think?
I also kind of have to agree with Cielau here in terms of Kingambit's skill. I strongly believe there is ZERO skill needed to use it, and to cause havoc with it on either Dark or Steel teams. It has MANY coverage moves to get rid of many of its checks and threats, which van be useful in most scenarios for the team that its on, however, it forces them out to send a mon that can hopefully tank the hit, and can open up numerous opportunities for Kingambit to be able to set up as much as it wishes to, to the point where it would be nearly unbeatable.
I dont really see the loss of having Kingambit banned from SV Monotype, as there are many ways that Dark and Steel can handle their issues on their own, but with Kingambit present, thats one more thing that Iron Valiant has to worry about, but this isnt about Iron Valiant, and it can be countered in other ways, but ill keep this input short, and say that Kingambit rightfully deserves a ban. (Im sorry Dark- and Steel-type lovers and players)
