Announcement SV Monotype Suspect #11: Dirty Dancer (Gouging Fire Suspect Test)

[Rio Vidal]

​

Gouging Fire has an incredible typing, great ability, a fantastic moveset, and natural bulk allowing it to easily fulfill a variety of roles such as offensive setup sweeper, a sun boosted revenge killer, and just an overall sponge being able to switch into attacks through the game. Dragon teams Gouging Fire has great defensive support between the Steel-types, Levitate users, and Fighting immunity in Dragapult; allowing Gouging Fire to easily switch between itself and its teammates through the game, forming a core with crazy defensive synergy. This allows Gouging Fire ample opportunities to setup Dragon Dance and sweep through the whole team. This is especially dangerous when you consider that Gouging Fire can easily snowball games with Dragon Dance if the opponent does not play around it perfectly and can end the game on the spot. Gouging Fire also provides invaluable offensive pressure the types Dragon is weak to in Ice and Fairy. This allows Dragon teams to be used with virtually no drawback, pushing them to the forefront of the metagame, as seen in MWP. On Fire it plays completely differently, it is a sun abuser. Its main set is a Choice Band user that activates Protosynthesis to increase its Speed stat allowing it to spam Raging Fury which 2HKOs a majority of the metagame and is extremely difficult to revenge kill thanks to the Speed boost Protosynthesis gives it. Both types also give it access to Healing Wish, allowing it to rip through teams a second time. Due to all these great qualities and team support, Gouging Fire remains a prominent threat and the forefront of the metagame.

While Gouging Fire has all these great qualities, usually its role is fairly obvious from team preview and the player can plan on how to manage it accordingly. This can come through paralyzing it to allow a faster Pokemon to revenge kill it, remove its Heavy-Duty Boots with Knock Off to prevent it from being able to switch in so freely, change the weather while its locked into a move to deactivate protosynthesis, and many more. A majority of types also have their own answers to Gouging Fire, such as Dark using physically defensive Ting-Lu, switch weather conditions while its locked into an attack, and opposing Dragon teams have access to Pokemon that can OHKO bulky Gouging Fire after it uses Dragon Dance twice.

The metagame has adapted to Gouging Fire in many ways, however it still prevails as a Pokemon that can easily run away with games if mismanaged. So the council would like to let the community decide its fate!

Council Opinions

on fire teams with access to sun, gouging fire can rip through teams with choice band raging fury+a speed boost. this makes it both incredibly difficult to tank an attack or outspeed it to threaten a ko inside the sun. on dragon teams, it has access to incredible defensive synergy with its teammates allowing it to switch out of threats safely with ease and setup dragon dance at the most opportune times. both types also provide it access to healing wish, which allow it to do the same thing all over again. definitely a powerful pokemon deserving of a suspect.

Gouging Fire has been a threatening presence in the meta for a while, picking up a suspect near the start of the year which ended in it staying in the meta. Since then, it has maintained a similar role in the meta, although with some slight differences. Physically Defensive sets are more common on Dragon, and double Steel builds are a lot more common, ensuring that Gouging does not have as much of a burden in being forced to check the prominent Fairy types. This freedom has ensured that it has maintained its danger despite the various fluctuations in the meta since, and the reason that I have voted for it to be suspected once more.

Hopefully we don't derail like Gouging Suspect #1... On Fire it's pretty easy to see what Gouging is doing: hammer time. The support and sun-boosted damage can be overwhelming despite how predictably it is used on the type. However, mispredictions in what set Gouging is running on Dragon can make playing around it punishing while simultaneously chipping down or losing your defensive core. Do I think Gouging is broken? No. Do I think it has enough support that it is considerably problematic? Perhaps. With its access to recovery on top of the setup and coverage moves, it has extremely good potential, but when laddering, more often than not I encounter players who let it get chipped early and ruin its ability to set up or do more serious damage mid-to-end game or end up sacking it altogether unless I'm using Steel, which pragmatically it should have an advantage over given its bulk + coverage anyway. In MWP it wasn't usually the case that singlehandedly won Dragon teams games either. I've had ever-so-slightly more trouble against it with Fighting now that Zama is gone, but if a Dragon team is letting me Bulk Up with Scrafty, it's not doing so hot in the 1v1 and swapping anything else into a Knock Off is unideal for them, and I've had some fun with other weird sets that it doesn't present too much of an added difficulty in the MU. I think Gouging could probably be replaced for the purpose it fulfills on most Dragon teams, and even with the STAB Fire coverage being sorely missed, Dragon has enough support options to cover the bulky offense provided by Gouging Fire.

Unmatched breaker on fire in the sun that can plow through defensive cores and has few natural checks, simply uncompetitive in my eyes. Not as absurd on Dragon but excellent bulk makes it one of the biggest set up threats in the tier.

Having the perfect role of defenvise support and viable win condition in a plethory of mu make me feel like this should be ban from a long time ago. I can also mention the fire problem, sun makes him really unstopable against types who don't have access to a lot of fire resist. I feel like we really underestimate the problem of this pokemon in the metagame, but 1 year after things doesn't really evolve despite many action of the council, imo it's a sign another sign an action required. I think u understand it, but I will vote ban

Gouging Fire stands out because of it's great stat spread, nearly perfect coverage, set up ability and recovery combined with great team support on both Dragon and Fire. On Dragon, the variety of sets, spreads and coverage make early defensive plays difficult to make a potentially punishing. While Fire might only use Choice Band as a set, the raw power and support from Sun (both for Fire STAB and Protosynthesis boosts) there is only so much some types can do to check Gouging Fire.

I believe Gouging restrains gameplay in irritating ways, especially on Dragon teams. It shuts down a good bit of otherwise solid ways to punch through and sweep dragon, while simultaneously threatening to setup and sweep in return. Its far from the game-ender offensive mons we have suspected in the past, but I find its ability to prevent dragon from losing to be a hinderance on the meta.

I have the impression that Gouging Fire lost traction since it's first suspect, either by metagame naturally adapting to it or by people eventually realizing that the dog is not the threat that they think it is. However, with the Zamazenta ban, it would be natural to think that the Dog would be able to run rampant again, since one of its most reliable checks would be out of the game. Except it didn't. Most recent tournaments showed Band on Sun being questionable at most, with Fire being in an all-time low since the start of the gen; while on Dragon it still shines with the role of a great defensive mon, but it stops at there. A great defensive mon, not broken or uncompetitive by any means.

Feel free to post in this thread with your thoughts on Gouging Fire in Monotype. You are encouraged to post replays to prove your point.
You have to reach a COIL of 3170 in order to get reqs. For reference, the B-value for this suspect will be 2. The suspect test will last two weeks until Thursday March 6th @ 11:59 PM EDT (GMT -5). You will then have three days to cast your vote. Gouging Fire will require a 60% majority of voters in favor of banning it in order for it to be banned from Monotype.

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING A NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this retest are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention (however if you want to GFDD is a suggested prefix), your suspect account must have never played a game in Monotype before this suspect test went up (we will know) or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W-L does not count for this -- the account you use must never have played Monotype before the test, full stop.)
  • You can use /rank to check if your alt is allowed to get requirements. Whenever in doubt, type /rank and it will tell confirm if you are eligible or not
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact Rio Vidal, ken, or Floss
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM Rio Vidal

>>> View the suspect on this page: https://www.smogon.com/tools/suspects/view/83<<<

GXE/Games to COIL

You may use this thread to discuss this Gouging Fire suspect or ask for clarification for any questions you may have. You may not use this thread to post one-liners or discuss topics unrelated to this specific suspect, such as possible future suspects. Please stay respectful when you post and follow all Monotype forum rules. Please also make sure to follow the Monotype tiering philosophy found here.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

We love to see it

 

[Jahkem]

I’d like to make a small request for those of you that will be posting.

Before writing opinions and arguments, may you please state whether you’re going into this discussion with your mind already made up about Ban/No Ban and cannot be convinced otherwise, or if you are open to changing your mind throughout the discussion.

Obviously, you are absolutely under no obligation to do so. For myself, personally, I want to put in effort with individuals who are willing to have an open minded discussion. I am on the No Ban side, but I’m open to changing to the other side.

 

[Ethereal Sword]

One year and ten days after the first suspect and yet again not one mention was made of the most dastardly of Gouging Fire sets - Burning Bulwark. The same things I said last year and two weeks ago still hold true - Gouging Fire's natural bulk and access to reliable recovery make it an extremely effective defensive Pokemon while trying to remove it with physical (specifically contact) attacks runs into a rather nasty surprise.

The other advantage of running this set is role consolidation. With full SpD investment on Gouging, you can afford not to run a Goodra-H and thereby fit in another Pokemon that can give you an edge in certain matchups. This is very much welcome for a type whose typical teams leave only two slots for variation (Dragapult/Gouging/Archaludon/Goodra-H/filler/filler).

The Set.

Gouging Fire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Burning Bulwark
- Heat Crash
- Earthquake
- Morning Sun

 

[Charmriah]

Hey yall im gonna like copy and paste what I said in the metagame discussion but i added some more stuff at the end so like i'm not double posting.

We have arrived at the biggest elephant in the room. Dragon is by far and away the best type in SV Monotype. Dragon has the most threatening defensive core in the entire SV metagame, Archaludon, Goodra-Hisui, and Gouging Fire. There is one mon that is not like the others here. That is gouging fire. I think it’s been discussed quite enough that this is one the biggest constrictions on the builder. To touch back on the previous types for a second dark AND water (i’ll make another post maybe about that) have been using multiple mons good at beating dragon because of this builder constriction. Hisui-Samruott’s biggest rise was because it can indeed threaten the goodra-hisui/Archaludon core very well. But one mon it can’t just power through without extreme risks is gouging fire. Often time you would rather just take the more safe way and toxic/foul play stall with mandibuzz. Gouging fire out of the 3 has the most set variety that can take advantage of the breakers of goodra/archaludon. Damage against it almost 99% of the time is not permanent unlike the former 2. With zamazenta gone one of the tiers ways of straight up denying all 3 of them in one singular slot is gone. Fighting isn’t gonna crumble completely vs dragon since your running the head hoodlum scrafty but the matchup is certainly not favored for fighting anymore without having to make severe concessions towards other matches (which why wouldn’t you its the best type might as well not be dead on arrival). Flying has to go over the moon and stars not to lose to gouging and the rarer kyurem (still loses to mix sets). I think one of the biggest gaslights since the start of the gouging fire debacle is that archaludon was the culprit and behind why gouging fire takes advantage of so many mons.. When damage against it is permanent and it doesn’t have good mixed bulk (also can’t reliably set up sweep). If anything archaludon synergies well with heatran with steel to keep it at bay from getting outright dog walked by gouging fire. If you feel like this feels like a conversation of broken checking broken then the best way to go about this is really getting action on gouging fire. I think dragon would be absolutely fine if it had just archlaudon and goodra-hisui being those mons are very exploitable but the fact of the matter is that gouging fire is always getting the opportunity to help take advantage of the mons that would otherwise break through this core.

Going to add some more to this. I think a common misconception is that gouging fire always needs to outright win games to be completely broken (it does quite the few times). But I think the main problem with gouging fire being allowed in the tier is that everything and everytype is wrapped around it. People are already adapting to the goodra/archaludon core of needing to be able to break through this. Gouging fire does require 1-2 additional checks on a team. Whether it be offensively (water’s primarina + urshifu + hisui-samruott) or defensively (Dark’s mixed bulk ting lu + mandibuzz). All of these options are heavily exploited or outright shut down by gouging’s teammates. One of the “safest” types to bring a tour flying is always gambling of whether it can beat dragon. The biggest uncontrollable factor in this is gouging fire. There are no fully reliable answers to gouging fire that don’t completely compromise builds. For example phys def gliscor (you need spdef otherwise every single special attacker completely runs over you). Having to run gyrados (completely unreliable into kyurem + gouging comps) or moltress (goodra-hisui bait). If this is the pinnacle of balance in monotype there is clearly something undesirable is going on here if the one “balance” type can’t even answer the best sweeper in the tier without giving up an arm and a leg.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-809302 example A we have from W1 of MWP where one player couldn’t effectively respond to gouging fire due to (the very real possibility) getting burned and gouging being offensively oriented. (You may think that ok they literally got burned what do you expect) But the thing is that if the other playe wanted to DD alongside dragonnite they could’ve potentially just won like that on the spot (which they ended up doing anyway).
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-809284 Example B we have the double lati comp which we see gouging fire take off pressure from greninja for goodra-hisui which allows goodra-hisui to end up winning the game with latios. Had this mon not been there and something else was in place of it the MU could’ve gone very differently.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-810538 example C the variation of flying and it still not meaning much because kyurem + gouging fire applies too much pressure to win with gouging’s damage done to it not being permanent or really of any threat at all.

There are many other replays you find of gouging do gouging things of winning games/ doing entirely too much in a game to be considered healthy by any metric. I encourage many people to ban this mon and really allow SV to become the great tier it really wants to be. If you feel differently do not quote me I am not fighting nobody in this thread.

TLDR: Ban Gouging fire

 

[cpt.kraken]

Hey,
I was not sure about doing or not the suspect since last suspect was my last one and didn't really follow every thing since then. I was talking with meu amigo juleocesar and he showed me a way if we are going to go for a ban vote. It is gonna be also very theoretical but whatever. The meta is actually dominated by Dragon being number 1 without any question not allowing some types to exist. In my opinion, I do not mind Gouging Fire staying once more, but if I will have to vote this is a way of thinking.
The main issue of Gouging Fire for me is that you have to guess the set. A bad read and you're losing more mons that you should have putting you in a bad to losing situation.

This is a list of sets I have in my builder including sample ones.

Possible sets on dragon

Gouging Fire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 Spe
Impish Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Breaking Swipe / Earthquake
- Morning Sun
- Dragon Dance

Gouging Fire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 156 SpD / 104 Spe
Careful Nature
- Flare Blitz / Heat Crash
- Earthquake / Dragon Claw / Breaking Swipe
- Morning Sun
- Dragon Dance

Gouging Fire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Heat Crash
- Dragon Claw / Burning Bulwark
- Earthquake / Burning Bulwark
- Morning Sun

Possible sets on fire

Gouging Fire @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 88 HP / 168 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Raging Fury
- Outrage
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake

Gouging Fire @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Scale Shot
- Earthquake

Gouging Fire @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 104 Def / 156 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Substitute
- Dragon Claw

A ban of this mon will change the meta. Who's gonna benefit and lose from it ?
Dark, bug, fighting, fairy, poison will benefit a lot from it.
Dark is generally kinda offensive and doesn't like too bulky mons especially if they can set up and heal to it. HO Lokix will be a thing once more to counter other Dark and just cause is a general okay mon.
Bug no more Araquanid so you can be more creative and also will do great against Dark once again and fairy. Also it compensates with the rise of Dark as Flying, Ghost and Fire (to some extent) will still be there.
Fighting and Fairy will have less switching in to mixed set allowing even some pure physical Sword Dance set in Fairy that will destroy once again Dragon, same thing for and that will be slightly better as their Ins won't be able to in that often.

On the contrary, dragon will lose a lot of MUs. Is it bad ? If you're a Dragon expert Soma, for sure yes ! Otherwise it will just be more benefit to the whole meta. Against flying, Gouging Fire wasn't the best as boltbeam , substitute nasty plot , , mixed or specs exist and even thunderpunch + ice spinner + roost/extreme speed/earthquake/encore are still better than prehistoric lion.
Fire will have to change its structure that hasn't changed for more than a year : . Maybe the comeback of ? with solar beam ? Cinderace scarf or bulk up and defog ? I think fire will get fine as it's super HO type that has never been top1. Raging fury was super annoying to deal with for most types including super walls resisting to it like Toxapex.

For other types, even like balanced water dealing with Gouging Fire was always on the edge as handling it badly put you with low HP mons to deal with other threats of Dragon.

Even for grass users, Dragon MU will be slightly better !

 

[Fraolain]

Gouging Fire is not broken. Gouging Fire has never been broken. Gouging Fire will never be broken (?). Gouging Fire does not deserve a ban.

Gouging Fire is not oppressive. Gouging Fire is a strong mon, DD allows Gouging Fire to put pressure and make opponent scared. Band hits hard in sun and sun makes Gouging Fire faster, that's all true statements.

But Gouging Fire has flaws too. Gouging fire DD is always same 5 possible moves, only the spread changes. Defensive spread doesn't hit that hard so you can toxic or phaze it. Offensive spread lacks longevity. There is strong and competitive counter-play for both kind in every type that isn't bug. No types that aren't bug gets 6-0ed by Gouging Fire, Burning Bulwark is bad and not even a set. It's all lies. Even Grass can beat Gouging Fire without using weird specific sets.

Fire Gouging Fire hits hard but fire is not that good. Predictability is even worse because now it's only one possible set (DD is useless, fight me) The Pokemon (Gouging Fire) is weak to rocks, Raging Fury/Outrage locks it in for a revenge kill. Ogerpon-Heartflame is arguably a stronger presence than Gouging Fire in sun Fire. Gouging Fire ban does not change Fire gameplay's or overall strength by much.

tl;dr: Gouging Fire should not get banned, because... Gouging Fire is not banworthy.

 

[juleocesar]

I will try to elaborate further my thoughts (wasn't originally going to because i yap on cord/mono room a lot and get lazy to do it here)

a) Gouging Fire is not broken or uncompetitive...but restrictive

I think the metagame has established well enough to counterplay Gouging Fire, but at what cost? Several builds have to be restrained and heavily encouraged in order to account the type #1 in the metagame: Dragon. Examples include Pokemon like Gyarados on Flying and Balloon Heatran being required to be used 100% of the time on Steel. While those examples are useful in several other situations than just checking Gouging Fire, you can see the variety of builds have been reduced from the moment Gouging Fire has been introduced.

b) Gouging Fire ban will benefit the metagame

Biggest winners in my opinion will be Dark Bug Fairy Fighting and Poison. Gouging Fire enormous bulk makes it fare well against more hyper offense teams like Dark, especially that it can often take 1 or 2 hits from Pokemon like Meowscarada, Greninja or Darkrai. Choice Band sun boosted Raging Fury also favors some braindead button clickery that more offensive teams struggle to deal with; as long as they don't have any way of dispelling the weather. Finally, Healing Wish support available to both Dragon and Fire ensures it can perform its job and increase its longevity even when there is preparation for it in most teams and types. Bug win is obvious because they won't have to worry about strong setup / hard hitter fire coverage anymore; Fairy is more because of Fire nerf since Volcanion / Ogerpon-H / Heatran core really hinders it so naturally more reason to use this type in tour play; Fighting and Poison also kinda struggle against certain set variants: Substitute GF (which is criminally underused IMO; gives it protection against its main form of counterplay which is status, can put a heavy dent on poison and several other more defensive builds such as Stall Water. (here is a replay but i understand u should take it not very seriously because well..ladder but at least you can check what is capable of doing.) Fighting in particular simply does not have strong tools to adequatedly handle the Choice Band set under sun either so we don't even need to go further on less used sets. There are also several less used types (such as Ice and Grass) which can get some benefit but were not mentioned due to the lack of relevancy in current gen.

As for losers, I cannot really think of types other than Dragon and Fire themselves. Essentially the whole situation revolving around GF's removal from the metagame should benefit the metagame as a whole. Overall, the tradeoff resulting on GF ban is positive, and I believe many other players agree with this statement.

c) My final thoughts

I'm very lenient towards the ban side, because I'm optimistic in regards to what the metagame would look like in the absence of Gouging Fire. However, it is totally understandable if players decide to use the argument of not being totally broken or uncompetitive to defend it. I would also like to read posts with different visions in order to increase my understanding about this matter and I also hope players, especially the ones who are in the fence about it, get more certain of what they decide to do, for the best of the metagame.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

To answers Jahkem's request, I am a totally neutral and unbiased party. Objectively speaking, Gouging Fire should go.

Now, as other said it's a pretty restrictive mon. We're not only just looking at multiple types forced to run specific sets/mons - steel forced to run balloon tran as a prime example of that, but a mon that completely invalidates otherwise competitive types from the competitive tour scene. All the while, I consider GF to be a mon that is entirely responsible for Dragon's overtly-centralizing place in our metagame.

To add to this, while Gouging Fire may not be uncompetitive for the entirety of the metagame, I don't think we'd really seen any single mon so completely and singlehandedly render an otherwise competitive type useless before as GF has done with bug, especially one with such an impactful presence in the meta. It is to the point where, and I am not making shit up when I say this, I'd seen chatters say not to ban Gouging Fire because then Dragon would lose to Bug. Bug with Gouging Fire gone would be an otherwise very competitive anti-meta that I'd consider High C - Low B tier. Winning mus into Dark and Fairy with all the tools necessary to handle types such as Flying, Ground, and Dragon, with the main question being how well you want to prepare for types such as Steel and Poison in the builder.

Also, while Juleo listed "Dark, Bug, Fairy, Fighting, and Poison" as the main winners, and "Dragon and Fire" as the main losers, truthfully I don't think Fire would drop all that much with GF gone due to the fact that Dragon will itself drop in usage. Dragon is Fire's most dire matchup, and before DLC2 brought the goodies of Gouging Fire and Arch, Fire was seeing solid tour usage as an anti meta that could handle types like Steel and Flying. If anything, I'd imagine people are more free to use Fire in the competitive tour scene when Dragon doesn't need to be accounted for. Overall, I see GF going as a breath of fresh air for the meta because it seems to me that aside from Dragon, the metagame as a whole will have a weight lifted off it's shoulder.

I do believe that the over-centralization of Dragon is also a pretty recognizable reason some may want a GF ban. Drag is #1 in ladder usage by a longshot, #1 in MWP Usage, and manages to maintain a 66% winrate all the same in the tour scene (adjusting for mirrors, Dragon's winrate is more like 70%). It's no understatement that Dragon is a type that constantly needs to be accounted for, and unlike other top types such as Flying and Steel, it seems far more difficult to reasonably do so in the builder as well. If this wasn't the case, I don't believe Dragon's winrate would have managed to maintain given the larger sample size it's had. While some people may in bad faith say the problem isn't Gouging Fire but another Dragon, these are nothing but reactionary arguments that simultaneously point out the problem of Dragon in this meta, while taking the cowardly approach of griefing the GF Ban. Banning Hoodra, for example, would only impact the dragon mirror. Banning Arch wouldn't whatsoever impact how Dragon functions, and while a mon like Chomp may be less consistent - this wouldn't actually impact Dragon's viability much nor would it allow for more types to reasonably break through Dragon. Gouging Fire is a stopgate to so many HO options types use, the thing is unkillable and with reliable recovery it is able to completely shut down the traditional mons that gave Dragon trouble such as Iron Valiant. A GF ban not only opens up HO as a whole, but allows for types such as fighting, fairy, dark, bug, steel, etc, to all have far more reliable methods of making progress vs. Dragon.

 

[Tuff Tuff]

Hi

I'm leaning towards a no ban. I'm trying to keep an open mind, but I just can't get behind the arguments presented in favor of banning it.

This suspect test feels a bit odd to me - it seems more like it's targeting Dragon as a whole (which I don’t mind) rather than Gouging Fire itself.

I don’t think Gouging Fire is banworthy by any means. It’s undeniably a strong Pokémon, but it comes with plenty of weaknesses as well. First, I think we should all agree that the impact on Fire teams will be minimal. The biggest issue Fire has right now is actually Gouging Fire itself. Dealing with opposing Gouging Fire on Dragon teams is incredibly difficult without sacrificing your own Gouging Fire, often by locking yourself into Outrage.

So, I’ll primarily focus on Gouging Fire’s role on Dragon teams. Most sets tend to be either physically or specially defensive, running Dragon Dance, Morning Sun, and two of three coverage moves (Fire/Ground/Dragon).

This limited coverage means that Gouging Fire has several natural checks and plenty of viable counterplay across most types (without having to run unusual sets...). Additionally, since Gouging Fire has been around for a while, most players should already be familiar with how to build and play around it effectively.

 

[Taccm]

Gonna be honest, I feel like I'm cheating when I use gouging fire and dragon, I normally use low-tier/mid-tier typings for fun reasons like bug or normal, but for reqs I've been using dragon and holy it's so much easier to climb.

Dragon is way too oppressive, and what makes it oppressive is gouging fire(and archaludon but it's not at all banworthy). For bug, gouging is an impenetrable wall that you must commit araquanid to kill or you lose, for water, it is much weaker. However, looking objectively, it still restricts building even on typings that go even to dragon, like steel.

So far I haven't seen any real arguments for why it's not banworthy, to me restrictive oppressive Pokemon that you have to account for in the teambuilder or you will get swept, are worthy of a ban. I'd be willing to discuss with someone about why it's not banworthy. Though, I will be voting for a ban when I make reqs. I didn't do the suspect test last time, so I'm not letting this dog get away with its crimes again.

 

[Dragon Expert Soma]

I rarely discuss anything in here but this time it is necessary and i have a duty to do this because i'm the Dragon King(No false modesty here).This second Gouging fire suspect have 0 sense.First because it is a Second suspect and there are another pokemon name that really should be suspected and it always escapes,Gliscor.It is obvious that people want to ban Gouging fire not because of the pokemon (It is indeed very powerful but not at all broken and the meta adapted to it very well) but because the community hates and fear that Dragons are too tough.So they want It banned to diminish Dragon and people confessed it and i saw some guys wanting to ban Archaludon as well.GF IS bulky but It can't switch into any Draco Meteors,specs latios ko even the max hp,max special defensive variant,it can't break heatran unless it uses a Dragon move and If it do,it have to give up Dragon dance.Even bug,who can get destroyed easily by it,found a tech to destroy it,,counter forrestress and iron defense araq.A Suspect ban should not be allowed if the intention of the community is to nerf a type and not because of the supposed feeling of a pokemon be broken which clearly Gouging fire is not.




,

 

[Showl]

Reqs finally done with almost only Dragon and, I must admit, it was a tough ride.

Although Dragon is a strong type that can often be played in autopilot, it is also very prone to get beaten to the pulp by a set you would have not foreseen. In that regard, Gouging Fire does not help much, as metagame has adapted in a way it is almost always checked by multiple Pokémon in a team.

Playing against Steel revolves around outpredicting your opponent and more often than not, you'll end up sacking Gouging Fire without it accomplishing much due to how immunity core works. And this is not a rare thing, against many types Gouging Fire will be nigh-useless. To name a few: Water, Flying, Ground, Fairy, Dragon. The only matchups where it can have a substantial impact would be Fighting (assuming Tusk/Shifu are KO and Hands is not SD), Ghost, and Dark (assuming no Sableye/SD Hamurott).

So far, I have yet to read arguments in ban's favor. I am thus leaning towards Do Not Ban.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Reqs finally done with almost only Dragon and, I must admit, it was a tough ride.

Although Dragon is a strong type that can often be played in autopilot, it is also very prone to get beaten to the pulp by a set you would have not foreseen. In that regard, Gouging Fire does not help much, as metagame has adapted in a way it is almost always checked by multiple Pokémon in a team.

Playing against Steel revolves around outpredicting your opponent and more often than not, you'll end up sacking Gouging Fire without it accomplishing much due to how immunity core works. And this is not a rare thing, against many types Gouging Fire will be nigh-useless. To name a few: Water, Flying, Ground, Fairy, Dragon. The only matchups where it can have a substantial impact would be Fighting (assuming Tusk/Shifu are KO and Hands is not SD), Ghost, and Dark (assuming no Sableye/SD Hamurott).

So far, I have yet to read arguments in ban's favor. I am thus leaning towards Do Not Ban.

I love how you listed not only multiple mus where it does help in the "nigh-useless" column, but Fairy of all things where Gouging's ability to shut down Valiant is part of why Dragon is so consistent vs. the type and part of why it can be so difficult for fairy to make progress vs. Dragon. Aside from the fact that Flying has changed it's builds in alot of ways to better handle GF in the first place, you'll still completely missing the fact that GF on Fire for example can completely cook the type - not to mention how difficult it can be for way more than you're thinking of

I think you're actually missing the reason why so many people want the mon gone - at least from the perspective of drag (it sounds like you forgot it's on fire), it completely shuts down progress made vs. drag from so much of the tier. Having Hamurott on dark or tusk/shifu on fighting doesn't mean GF doesn't have a substantial impact in those games, especially for dark GF is a won endgame for Dragon vs. the vast majority of dark builds you see if the defensive core gets weakened too much. Add to that, saying it only matters vs. 3 types is so fucking dishonest lmao. Dark, Fighting, Ghost yeah I'll agree it's great there, but let's add Fairy, Bug, Poison at the minimum - not to mention shit like grass/ice/elec which ppl don't really care about.

 

[Showl]

I love how you listed not only multiple mus where it does help in the "nigh-useless" column, but Fairy of all things where Gouging's ability to shut down Valiant is part of why Dragon is so consistent vs. the type and part of why it can be so difficult for fairy to make progress vs. Dragon. Aside from the fact that Flying has changed it's builds in alot of ways to better handle GF in the first place, you'll still completely missing the fact that GF on Fire for example can completely cook the type - not to mention how difficult it can be for way more than you're thinking of

I think you're actually missing the reason why so many people want the mon gone - at least from the perspective of drag (it sounds like you forgot it's on fire), it completely shuts down progress made vs. drag from so much of the tier. Having Hamurott on dark or tusk/shifu on fighting doesn't mean GF doesn't have a substantial impact in those games, especially for dark GF is a won endgame for Dragon vs. the vast majority of dark builds you see if the defensive core gets weakened too much. Add to that, saying it only matters vs. 3 types is so fucking dishonest lmao. Dark, Fighting, Ghost yeah I'll agree it's great there, but let's add Fairy, Bug, Poison at the minimum - not to mention shit like grass/ice/elec which ppl don't really care about.

With Valiant being mostly used with Life Orb in Fairy (more than 50% against 13% for Scarf) and 2HKOing spdef variant while it's a roll on def variant, I fail to understand in which situation would Gouging Fire be tasked to handle it. But even in the unlikely event that it could, you would more likely abuse of Dragapult with the Steel core. Not to mention it cannot come on Choice Specs Flutter nor can it win its duel against Azumarill and Primarina. It's just a momentum drain.

Aside from the fact that Flying teams did not wait for Gouging Fire to run HdB Dragonite, you forget how hard it is for Fire to snatch the win in this MU due to the overreliance on Sun and no-hazard to make progress. Choice Band Gouging Fire does indeed have good damage potential against Flying, yet is still heavily reliant on good predicts to actually deal substantial damage. Gouging Fire being also part of a mid-type does not make it more dangerous. Surely, if Choice Band in Sun was so threatening, we would have seen it much more in MWP or on the ladd and its winrate would not be abysmal.

With the most popular Dark build using Knock off/Encore Sableye and SD Hamurott, it's a tall order for Dark to lose this MU. For it to actually be a nice late-game cleaner, you need to first kill both Sableye and SD Hamurott, which is quite a feat to achieve without a tech to avoid Hamurott reaping kills.

I'll let you have Bug, if you want. However, Fairy and Poison are far from being claimed by Gouging Fire. Poison defensive core is impenetrable for Gouging Fire, you need first to put KO or severely wound Toxapex before it can achieve anything. Play more with Dragon and you'll eventually see how hard it is for Gouging Fire to make progress in most games. Choice Band Gouging Fire isn't any better in these ones, you cannot break through Toxapex unless getting multiple predictions in your favor and Ogerpon-H will still hardcarry the Fairy MU. Now, it does indeed have good ins against bottom-tier types like Grass/Elec/Ice, but should we really make tiering decision based on what beats bad types?

 

[Tuff Tuff]

With Valiant being mostly used with Life Orb in Fairy (more than 50% against 13% for Scarf) and 2HKOing spdef variant while it's a roll on def variant, I fail to understand in which situation would Gouging Fire be tasked to handle

While looking at the fairy MU, theres always a Fluttermane in the back, so you really want to keep Hoodra healthy. So constantly threatening your Wincon by making risky 50/50s by switching in between Steel core and Pult is just... bad and not really a play.
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Gouging Fire: 181-214 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO
While this is obv not optimal, and every tiny bit of chip can be crucial in this, its still a good way to keep it somewhat in check, and can be a good Midground (+wearing it down with LO, is pretty good too)

Aside from the fact that Flying teams did not wait for Gouging Fire to run HdB Dragonite, you forget how hard it is for Fire to snatch the win in this MU due to the overreliance on Sun and no-hazard to make progress. Choice Band Gouging Fire does indeed have good damage potential against Flying, yet is still heavily reliant on good predicts to actually deal substantial damage. Gouging Fire being also part of a mid-type does not make it more dangerous.

Maybe you dont play Flying, or Fire or both?
But Fire has a really good matchup into Flying. Lets take the standardish core of Double Steel, Double Ground + Ground, and you already have no switchin into Banded Raging Fury, even if you lock yourself into Raging fury and revenge with DNite, you are just locking yourself into outrage yourself, giving your opponnent a chance to take your wincon.
The only semi reliant way is scarf Lando-I but you will always have to sac one mon to even get it in. And lets not get started with Ogerpon-h or ceruledge in that Mu.
That all aside im pretty sure TWK was talking about, running, physdef Gliscor/Moltres and scarf lando-i in the context of Flying changing its build because of GF.

Surely, if Choice Band in Sun was so threatening, we would have seen it much more in MWP or on the ladd and its winrate would not be abysmal.

Not sure if this is serious, maybe again you havent played Fire yet, but the biggest Problem Fire has, that stops it from being broken, is literally the most used type in MWP - Dragon.
Having to deal with a Sun Boosted, defensive GF is just too much for Fire, it cant really break through it.
Sometimes there is even a sun boosted Moon which is also pretty problematic.

With the most popular Dark build using Knock off/Encore Sableye and SD Hamurott, it's a tall order for Dark to lose this MU. For it to actually be a nice late-game cleaner, you need to first kill both Sableye and SD Hamurott, which is quite a feat to achieve without a tech to avoid Hamurott reaping kills.

sableye shouldnt be an issue. If you setup with GF, when there is a sab, then thats just stupid + GF almost 2hkos Sableye anyway.
Roaring Moon is a thing too threatening samu most of the time.
Outside of Samu there is barely anything that does threaten GF on dark (outside of loosing your hdbs and switching in on stacked hazards) + its a pretty save switchin to stuff like gren or meow, to avoid chipdamage from hazards on your steelcore
So while its true its a good MU for Dark, GF is the sole reason it doesnt autolose that mu
And if you let Samu have its SD for free, then idk, its kinda your own fault.

Poison defensive core is impenetrable for Gouging Fire, you need first to put KO or severely wound Toxapex before it can achieve anything.

idk why thats even a point. like. yeah poison defensive core is a pain to deal with, and toxapex walls gf.
But we are not going to talk about the free switch into arch? or like a latios that slowly wears down their core so GF can clean up later?

It really feels like you are looking at this very 1 Dimensional

 

[Aschmaros]

I rarely discuss anything in here but this time it is necessary and i have a duty to do this because i'm the Dragon King(No false modesty here).This second Gouging fire suspect have 0 sense.First because it is a Second suspect and there are another pokemon name that really should be suspected and it always escapes,Gliscor.It is obvious that people want to ban Gouging fire not because of the pokemon (It is indeed very powerful but not at all broken and the meta adapted to it very well) but because the community hates and fear that Dragons are too tough.So they want It banned to diminish Dragon and people confessed it and i saw some guys wanting to ban Archaludon as well.GF IS bulky but It can't switch into any Draco Meteors,specs latios ko even the max hp,max special defensive variant,it can't break heatran unless it uses a Dragon move and If it do,it have to give up Dragon dance.Even bug,who can get destroyed easily by it,found a tech to destroy it,,counter forrestress and iron defense araq.A Suspect ban should not be allowed if the intention of the community is to nerf a type and not because of the supposed feeling of a pokemon be broken which clearly Gouging fire is not.




,

I have to ask because I legitimately cannot tell. Are you being serious? Or are you just memeing?

Anyway, to speak about this suspect test, I'm glad it's finally happening. Before this mon was even put into the game, I wanted it gone. It sounded broken on paper, and in practice it wasn't as scary but still restrictive to a degree that's very troubling. (This is just in general regarding this Gen, but a plethora of mons that have released would've given us a stroke or laughed claiming its a fakemon if you told us in the prior gen about them). Right now, I'm going through midterms but I'm heavily considering studying for them and getting the reqs required for this.

 

[Showl]

While looking at the fairy MU, theres always a Fluttermane in the back, so you really want to keep Hoodra healthy. So constantly threatening your Wincon by making risky 50/50s by switching in between Steel core and Pult is just... bad and not really a play.
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Gouging Fire: 181-214 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO
While this is obv not optimal, and every tiny bit of chip can be crucial in this, its still a good way to keep it somewhat in check, and can be a good Midground (+wearing it down with LO, is pretty good too)

Maybe I interpret the stats in a wrong way, but when I read "Choice Specs 73.449%" (January stats, Fairy 1630, Flutter Mane), it seems to me that Fairy has more reasons to be afraid of Dragapult than Dragon has to be afraid of Flutter Mane. What prevents Choice Specs Dragapult from wreaking havoc in the MU? Simple, nothing. This is one of the MUs where you need the less to predict, playing the sacking game is in Dragon's favor.

I don't get the point you are trying to make with the calc, though. Have you played this matchup before? If you need to switch on Gouging Fire, it means you were not on Dragapult, which therefore (by backward induction) means they were previously on their Primarina, and that you were on Hoodra yourself. So, in that very case, assuming screens are set up (otherwise Valiant cannot come safely except by sacking a mon), why would you switch on Gouging instead of sacking Archaludon? By coming with Gouging, you let them freely switch back on Primarina, which means Hoodra will be further chipped down for no reason. Just keep the pressure with Dragapult, that's all you need to do, really.

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Iron Valiant: 276-325 (95.5 - 112.4%)

As this calc shows it, all you need to guarantee the OHKO is either set Stealth Rocks up or let it attack once. You don't need to predict anything because of the pressure Dragapult exerts in this MU. Would the MU be played differently without Gouging Fire in the back? No, it would still result in Dragon victory. Being able to potentially only be 3HKO'ed by a mon you do not need to account for in the first place does not make Gouging Fire relevant in the MU. It sure is fun for bragging, but in practice, you're better off not letting it come on the field.

Maybe you dont play Flying, or Fire or both?
But Fire has a really good matchup into Flying. Lets take the standardish core of Double Steel, Double Ground + Ground, and you already have no switchin into Banded Raging Fury, even if you lock yourself into Raging fury and revenge with DNite, you are just locking yourself into outrage yourself, giving your opponnent a chance to take your wincon.
The only semi reliant way is scarf Lando-I but you will always have to sac one mon to even get it in. And lets not get started with Ogerpon-h or ceruledge in that Mu.
That all aside im pretty sure TWK was talking about, running, physdef Gliscor/Moltres and scarf lando-i in the context of Flying changing its build because of GF.

I believe you meant Double Ground + Dragonite, so I'll base my comments on that. As you mentioned it yourself, Flying often runs Choice Scarf Landorus-I because it helps in many MUs by outspeeding IronPress Zamazenta (RIP), Proto Speed Gouging Fire, Ogerpon formes, and so on. Calling it a tech for Gouging Fire is disingenuous at best. It's a good set that lets Flying be much less passive against most popular wallbreakers.

You also seem to look into this only from the Flying perspective. Try playing with Fire and you will surely broaden your view of the MU. This MU holds on the very flimse hope of Heatran keeping its air balloon and Ceruledge its Focus Sash, putting an immense pressure on Fire to keep a Lando-I check throughout the match while preventing Dragonite from setting up. It is not something you can easily comprehend by looking at it theoretically. Give yourself the time to experience the MU.

Not sure if this is serious, maybe again you havent played Fire yet, but the biggest Problem Fire has, that stops it from being broken, is literally the most used type in MWP - Dragon.
Having to deal with a Sun Boosted, defensive GF is just too much for Fire, it cant really break through it.
Sometimes there is even a sun boosted Moon which is also pretty problematic.

I have to wonder if you played yourself Fire for overfocusing on Dragon that much? Unlike Sand Ground and Rain Water that require a considerable amount of techs to be even decent MUs for Fire, Dragon is much easier to beat, with exception to Roaring Moon builds. Try playing better the interactions in this MU, you will quickly see that Proto Def Gouging Fire is not that much troublesome, as it cannot hurt Air Balloon Heatran nor can it come on Choice Band Outrage. At the end of the day, the MU lies in your ability to properly set up Ceruledge.

Things are however much different against Rain and Sand archetypes. You simply cannot account for boosted Water moves without using Volcanion, making it nigh-impossible to win, while you will need to win a few predicts to prevail with Ogerpon-H in the Sand Ground MU. What is striking, however, is that in both MUs, Gouging Fire has minimal impact, once again.

sableye shouldnt be an issue. If you setup with GF, when there is a sab, then thats just stupid + GF almost 2hkos Sableye anyway.
Roaring Moon is a thing too threatening samu most of the time.
Outside of Samu there is barely anything that does threaten GF on dark (outside of loosing your hdbs and switching in on stacked hazards) + its a pretty save switchin to stuff like gren or meow, to avoid chipdamage from hazards on your steelcore
So while its true its a good MU for Dark, GF is the sole reason it doesnt autolose that mu
And if you let Samu have its SD for free, then idk, its kinda your own fault.

You seem to mix things up, stating on one hand that you need to keep Gouging Fire away from Knock Off and on the other hand, you state it is a safe switch in to Meowscarada? It does not add up, sorry.

Besides, how can this be ever considered as an argument: "And if you let Samu have its SD for free, then idk, its kinda your own fault."? I thought we were argumenting in good faith, but it seems not everyone is. Sad.

idk why thats even a point. like. yeah poison defensive core is a pain to deal with, and toxapex walls gf.
But we are not going to talk about the free switch into arch? or like a latios that slowly wears down their core so GF can clean up later?

It really feels like you are looking at this very 1 Dimensional

This suspect aims at evaluating Gouging Fire. Saying that Latios can chip down the Poison defensive core for Gouging Fire, Garchomp, Dragonite, Hydreigon, [INSERT WALLBREAKER] does not help in measuring how potent Gouging is. I am not even discussing about the feasibility of Latios chipping down the defensive core to the point Gouging Fire can actually become worrysome for Poison.

 

[ken]

Saying that Latios can chip down the Poison defensive core for Gouging Fire, Garchomp, Dragonite, Hydreigon, [INSERT WALLBREAKER] does not help in measuring how potent Gouging is.

We don’t play 1v1 or tier in a vacuum. Mentioning how teammates support or enable a Pokemon to become more than it is on paper is valid.

And drop the ad hominems.

 

[Tuff Tuff]

Please don’t take my post as an attack on you - that wasn’t my intention at all. There were just several points in your post that I felt needed to be addressed because, in my opinion, they weren’t entirely accurate. That said, trying to dismiss my arguments by attacking me personally isn’t the way we should be discussing things here. Therefore, I'd like to apologize for my comment in my previous post, where I asked if you had played Fire/Flying before.

I don't get the point you are trying to make with the calc,

I was honestly just confused of this statement

while it's a roll on def variant

Technically its a roll, its just a terrible roll, and even if its a Spdef variant, if it dds on your CC you have to switch out

Have you played this matchup before? If you need to switch on Gouging Fire, it means you were not on Dragapult, which therefore (by backward induction) means they were previously on their Primarina, and that you were on Hoodra yourself. So, in that very case, assuming screens are set up (otherwise Valiant cannot come safely except by sacking a mon), why would you switch on Gouging instead of sacking Archaludon? By coming with Gouging, you let them freely switch back on Primarina, which means Hoodra will be further chipped down for no reason. Just keep the pressure with Dragapult, that's all you need to do, really.

Thats a lot of... "What if" and feels more like you are constructing a scenario in your favor.
The point is that Valiant cant come in for free, something has to die for it too freely come in. GF also doesnt give you a free Primarina switch, unless screens and if screens are up, you have hoodra, which then again, clicks hslam which barely has any switchins either.
It technically can get up a free DD on every fairy thats not a fluttermane

Flying often runs Choice Scarf Landorus-I because it helps in many MUs by outspeeding IronPress Zamazenta (RIP), Proto Speed Gouging Fire, Ogerpon formes, and so on. Calling it a tech for Gouging Fire is disingenuous at best.

So... eh... naturally most scarfers should outrun those guys, Flying just doesnt have a lot of good scarfer and one reason why scarf Lando-I is used over Lando-t is GF. Iron press Zama doesnt really do too well into flying, and just gets pp stalled, so eh... and scarf Lando-i barely 2hkos it with psychic (which it doesnt even run that often), its a nice bonus to threaten Ogerpon formes (If they got chipped beforehand) but you have a Torn too

You also seem to look into this only from the Flying perspective. Try playing with Fire and you will surely broaden your view of the MU. This MU holds on the very flimse hope of Heatran keeping its air balloon and Ceruledge its Focus Sash, putting an immense pressure on Fire to keep a Lando-I check throughout the match while preventing Dragonite from setting up. It is not something you can easily comprehend by looking at it theoretically. Give yourself the time to experience the MU.

I do play a lot of Flying thats true, but i also play a lot of Fire surprisingly, especially because its pretty decent in most mu, and how straight forward it is to play. Thats why i like to use it for Suspects or even to climb from the lower ladder up.

Its not all on heatran holding its balloon and ceruledge keeping its sash. Simply having Heatran with an intact Balloon forces Lando-I to click U-turn most of the time, trying to catch the Heatran switch-in. Keeping sash is obv. good but you have bitterblade to get you back on your sash and it kinda freely comes in on stuff like corvi uturn/ihead or even Skarmory, which cant touch itor you make the predict with Lando-is uturn, + you have hwish in the back.
Setting up rocks to break the sash is also very risky, because gliscor doesnt get them out for free (Or Skarm if you run rocks on it) and even if you do cinderace can just bring them back onto your side, and corv will have a rough time defogging, and those rocks just mean that you lose important hp on Lando-i, which you do need to not die to suckerpunch or SS from ceruledge.
Dnite can be a threat but that mon cant setup for free either, just because of the pressure, Fire has.
Raging Fury does 2hko it, Ogerpon ignores your Multiscale, you cant really hit balloon tran, Hitting ceruledge makes it faster and you cant even Espeed on it.

I have to wonder if you played yourself Fire for overfocusing on Dragon that much? Unlike Sand Ground and Rain Water that require a considerable amount of techs to be even decent MUs for Fire

Im overfocusing Dragon probably, because its the roughest and most common matchup, Rain water isnt really a thing, at least in highladder so i dont really consider that relevant.
Rainless Water and Stall, will have a hard time against fire if played well.

Gouging Fire has minimal impact, once again.

Not sure how Rain water is supposed to look, but it gives you at least something that can tank rain boosted and non rainboosted hits and threaten their wincons to switch out (or claim the kill on them)
vs balance water (assuming we are talking standard banded GF) it can spam EQ and is hard to kill due to typing and its natural bulk
For the Ground mu it mostly is useless, but still can dish out some hits vs Mamo/Clod/Hippo

I come to wonder if you ever played Dragon vs Dark as well. Your knowledge of the MU seems scarce. You especially seem to mix things up, stating on one hand that you need to keep Gouging Fire away from Knock Off and on the other hand, you state it is a safe switch in to Meowscarada? It does not add up, sorry.

Having a bit of trouble of seeing your point here, but i'd like to point out that Meow does run Triple axle and/or Playrough. And would be switchins like Arch might get crippled or even killed by Ting-Lu/Sab and Samu

I thought we were argumenting in good faith, but it seems not everyone is. Sad.

I just want to highlight this for a second, reflect on yourself and your post.

Garchomp, Dragonite, Hydreigon, [INSERT WALLBREAKER]

im sorry but non of these mons are on standard Dragon teams. Chomp gets walled by Geezing, Dnite gets walled by geezing, and hydreigon is a poor choice for dragon in general + only has 2 Moveslots (assuming we are talking NP) which gets walled by the defensive core anyway (unless epower + flamethrower? idk)


It seems like you’re approaching this discussion with a very rigid perspective, often constructing scenarios that favor your argument rather than looking at the matchups from a broader, more practical standpoint.
Your take on Fire vs. Flying, for example, heavily underestimates how much pressure Fire gets in that mu.


Also i want to point out that - like I stated before - I am infact considering voting DNB , I just wanted to point out some flaws in your argumentation

 

[Showl]

Please don’t take my post as an attack on you - that wasn’t my intention at all. There were just several points in your post that I felt needed to be addressed because, in my opinion, they weren’t entirely accurate. That said, trying to dismiss my arguments by attacking me personally isn’t the way we should be discussing things here. Therefore, I'd like to apologize for my comment in my previous post, where I asked if you had played Fire/Flying before.

Do not worry, I was also too quick to react and should have moderated myself more in the first place. That said, it has never been my intention to diss arguments with ad hominem attacks. My apologies thus for these unnecessary comments.

I was honestly just confused of this statement

Technically its a roll, its just a terrible roll, and even if its a Spdef variant, if it dds on your CC you have to switch out

You are right, in the case of a 1v1, it would not be a good move from Fairy to click CC on Gouging Fire. Their play should rather be to switch on Primarina, if screens are up. I was rather talking in the case of a Gouging switch-in, but that was poorly phrased by me.

Thats a lot of... "What if" and feels more like you are constructing a scenario in your favor.
The point is that Valiant cant come in for free, something has to die for it too freely come in. GF also doesnt give you a free Primarina switch, unless screens and if screens are up, you have hoodra, which then again, clicks hslam which barely has any switchins either.
It technically can get up a free DD on every fairy thats not a fluttermane

Ah, sorry for this "What-if" effect, it is unintentional.

The point I am making in this part is that Gouging Fire does have no room for coming in because of the very nature of this match-up. Leading with Dragapult is the best choice for Dragon because it prevents Fairy from making any substantial progress. It follows that Fairy will either counter-lead with Primarina or lose a mon from the get-go. In both cases, it creates a situation where both players trade kills, a situation that prevents Gouging Fire from accomplishing much.

Theoretically, you could lead with Gouging Fire, but that would put you in a less desirable situation, creating ambiguity in the plays where it could be avoided. It thus makes Dragapult the catalyst of Dragon's progress in this MU. As the only Fairy Pokémons that can come on Shadow Ball are Azumarill and Primarina, Dragon can sack something or send Hoodra to force these to withdraw. Unfortunately, Gouging Fire loses its 1v1 against these ones if they have the initiative, which leaves it pretty useless in the MU.

0 Atk Gouging Fire Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Primarina: 75-89 (20.6 - 24.4%)
+1 0 SpA Primarina Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 189-223 (45.6 - 53.8%)
+1 0 SpA Primarina Surf vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Gouging Fire: 145-172 (35.1 - 41.6%)
Although it can DD on pretty much anything, in practice, it rarely has the room for, due to how the matchup works.

So... eh... naturally most scarfers should outrun those guys, Flying just doesnt have a lot of good scarfer and one reason why scarf Lando-I is used over Lando-t is GF. Iron press Zama doesnt really do too well into flying, and just gets pp stalled, so eh... and scarf Lando-i barely 2hkos it with psychic (which it doesnt even run that often), its a nice bonus to threaten Ogerpon formes (If they got chipped beforehand) but you have a Torn too

Yes, indeed, Flying is quite limited in Scarfers. Lando-T could however still works fine to handle GF thanks to intimidate but was considerably worse against Zamazenta. Zamazenta was able to come in for free on many Flying Pokémons such as Corviknight, Gliscor, and Dragonite and could give you the win if Tornadus-T, Skarmory and Lando-I were too weakened.

I do play a lot of Flying thats true, but i also play a lot of Fire surprisingly, especially because its pretty decent in most mu, and how straight forward it is to play. Thats why i like to use it for Suspects or even to climb from the lower ladder up.

Its not all on heatran holding its balloon and ceruledge keeping its sash. Simply having Heatran with an intact Balloon forces Lando-I to click U-turn most of the time, trying to catch the Heatran switch-in. Keeping sash is obv. good but you have bitterblade to get you back on your sash and it kinda freely comes in on stuff like corvi uturn/ihead or even Skarmory, which cant touch itor you make the predict with Lando-is uturn, + you have hwish in the back.
Setting up rocks to break the sash is also very risky, because gliscor doesnt get them out for free (Or Skarm if you run rocks on it) and even if you do cinderace can just bring them back onto your side, and corv will have a rough time defogging, and those rocks just mean that you lose important hp on Lando-i, which you do need to not die to suckerpunch or SS from ceruledge.
Dnite can be a threat but that mon cant setup for free either, just because of the pressure, Fire has.
Raging Fury does 2hko it, Ogerpon ignores your Multiscale, you cant really hit balloon tran, Hitting ceruledge makes it faster and you cant even Espeed on it.

As you mention it, this MU is very much predict-reliant both ways, which is why I don't categorize it as a good Fire MU. Everytime you get a kill with Choice Band Gouging Fire, Landorus can threaten you win Earth Power. However, Fire does not have the luxury to lose for free one of its main sweepers, so you either stay and pray Landorus clicks U-turn or you go on Heatran praying for them not to click U-turn. Either way, it's a 50/50 that is not really to Fire's advantage, in my opinion, due to their much worse Pivoting options and defensive core. For the hazard pressure, I tend to disagree with your claim. Part of the issue is that your only safe way to remove them is Court Change, which comes with an issue itself namely that you cannot remove them if they are set on both sides.

Having a bit of trouble of seeing your point here, but i'd like to point out that Meow does run Triple axle and/or Playrough. And would be switchins like Arch might get crippled or even killed by Ting-Lu/Sab and Samu

It is very much true, but one of Dark's easiest ways to make progress is by clicking Knock Off on your team to make you take hazard damage upon entry. Triple Axel / Play Rough will not be used before endgame unless it is Roaring Moon vs Meowscarada, as clicking Knock Off yields better outcome against Dragapult / Latios / Hoodra / Archaludon / Gouging Fire.

Also, I think you undervalue how potent the Sableye + Hamurott combination is in this matchup. Having to take into account Encore at every single turn makes it incredibly hard to actually benefit from Gouging Fire. With hazards from Ting-Lu (3 layers is easily achievable), Dark can secure a -31% upon entry to much of the Dragon team. Even Roaring Moon dies to +2 Sucker Punch after taking hazards twice.

im sorry but non of these mons are on standard Dragon teams. Chomp gets walled by Geezing, Dnite gets walled by geezing, and hydreigon is a poor choice for dragon in general + only has 2 Moveslots (assuming we are talking NP) which gets walled by the defensive core anyway (unless epower + flamethrower? idk)


It seems like you’re approaching this discussion with a very rigid perspective, often constructing scenarios that favor your argument rather than looking at the matchups from a broader, more practical standpoint.
Your take on Fire vs. Flying, for example, heavily underestimates how much pressure Fire gets in that mu.

They are indeed not standard. I used them to exemplify the teammate argument that is often misleading in suspect discussions. In the present case, Latios/Dragapult enable their teammates to finish the job, but for it to be used in charge against Gouging Fire would require to prove that only Gouging Fire can benefit from their wallbreaking capabilities. Otherwise, it means Gouging Fire is not more threatening than any other setup sweeper the type has to offer. The issue here lies in the fact that many Dragon setup sweepers can sweep Poison once their defensive core is weakened. So, in my opinion, it cannot be used as a real measure of how potent Gouging Fire is.

I believe we will not agree on this last point. Matches are often dictated by gameplans from end-to-end, except if haxx. Sometimes there are branchings, which creates these despicable 50/50 interactions, but many MUs can be rationalized to find the optimal moves sequence, much like in Game Theory. it gives you this feeling of "scenario" because I tend to speak about what are, to my knowledge, the optimal moves sequence. There is not much to learn from moves sequences that yield inferior results, so I don't speak about them. For instance, we would not gain much from tiering the Dragon lead options in the Fairy matchup.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I mean my main regret about this suspect ngl is the fact the meta really seems to be shifting at the moment, if anything I'd say that Samurott-Hisui popped up out of nowhere as one of the biggest threats. I obviously don't want hamurott banned, but the post Zama Mono has quickly shifted to the point that I fully don't believe many of the flying builds we see today would be the same ones we see a month from now, and moreover than that, we're suspecting Gouging at a time when it feels like Dragon might be forced to adjust for the first time in a literal year. If the suspect came at the end of like Seasonals tbh after meta settled a tiny bit more we'd have a better perspective, but as I am right now my perspective right now is kinda like -

A: The meta is still adjusting to Zama ban. I think this is most visible with Fighting, Dark, and Water in my opinion, at least right now I'm under the impression that they're all extremely potent types that have found ways to pretty reliably handle the Dragon matchup and made the best use of new trends in the post-Zama world. Obviously none of them are *perfect* but just spamming Fighting seems like a pretty guaranteed way to reqs right now on ladder. Add to that, I really was underestimating how good Hamurott is in the current meta, I think some others have recognized this as well, and what's best to use already feels way different to me than a month ago. If we're looking at the static 6 Dragon that largely hadn't changed since the Bax Ban - something like GF/Arch/Hoodra/Pult/Scarf/Special wallbreaker (usually specs latios+scarf Roaring Moon or something similar for the last two), I fully believe we have already seen the effect of Zama going with multiple types finding solid ways to handle this Dragon standard.

Mons is most fun in times of change imo, and at the moment the meta is way more fun than it was pre-zama right now, and to add to that it really feels like there's genuinely a decent amount to explore. I think I have a good idea of what's best for Dark/Fighting, but even then I know I will see more developments, and to add to that I'm in the middle of feeling my way around Water and can tell there's more to do with Fly/Drag. You could argue that all this means that Dragon may be easier to handle for the meta if we prepared for it, however this leads to my second point -

B: We haven't really seen Dragon adjust yet to meta. To put this in a different framing, people had been using the exact same Drag build with a solid and consistent mu spread that looked like Gouging Fire/Arch/Hoodra/Pult/Lati/Roaring Moon, with the main differentiation being whether you're doing scarf latias + something like kyurem or specs latios + scarf roaring moon - the scarf being what changed and the last mon accordingly.

The thing though, is that my impression of Dragon is that if it ever truly did experience difficulty in matchups, historically - and even in Gen 9 Pre DLC2 - Dragon was one of the best mu fish types in the game, and I wouldn't be surprised if Dragon returned a bit more to those roots of dropping a solid 18 mu spread to try and best win vs. the meta. This could mean dropping the dragon mirror (removing Hoodra) - something we'd already seen a bit of to replace the dragon mirror with some of the Dragon mons that can cook mus, Dropping Arch for something like Chomp, or even Dropping GF (weakening a couple mus) could be worth to in exchange promise a far more uncompromising winning mu into whatever the meta shifts to. My general impression right now is that GF may necessitate a ban but it's kinda hard for me to tell. I have a Dark I'd been loving on ladder, I face someone in 1600s earlier this week with a hoodraless dragon and suddenly realize that even just replacing that one mon turned what I figured to be a fairly safe and prepped for matchup into one I ended up losing.

 

[Tuff Tuff]

I feel like at this point we are missing the point that we were discussing orignally. And i really dont want to discuss what mu is good into what.

And this is not a rare thing, against many types Gouging Fire will be nigh-useless. To name a few: Water, Flying, Ground, Fairy, Dragon. The only matchups where it can have a substantial impact would be Fighting (assuming Tusk/Shifu are KO and Hands is not SD), Ghost, and Dark (assuming no Sableye/SD Hamurott).

This was the original point made.
TWK added that you should at least add bug/fairy/poison

And i agree with that, GF has impact in the Fairy mu, it beats almost every fairy in a 1v1, even Primarina if Spdef.
Iron Valiant, especially during MWP ran SD which means that Pult cant ohko + it even was shadow sneak in some mu

Vs poison, it also has substantial impact, by threatening every Mon with setups and EQs, and Poisons only realy switchin, geezing cant really touch it.

vs Flying, Flying changed a lot, bringing stuff like Gyarados/Moltres/Scarf Lando-I/PhysDef Gliscor etc. It still has a lot of impact in that MU, just because Fire is a very spammable move into Flying

vs. Water unless you are running Rain, it still has decent impact, because most Water teams dont have a ground immunity, and it can freely spam EQ, while being able to take a lot of diffrent hits.

Given all this, its clear that Gouging Fires impact varies depending on the matchup (obv), but it's far from being a non-factor in most cases.

 

[Showl]

And i agree with that, GF has impact in the Fairy mu, it beats almost every fairy in a 1v1, even Primarina if Spdef.
Iron Valiant, especially during MWP ran SD which means that Pult cant ohko + it even was shadow sneak in some mu

This is where our opinions diverge.

In 1v1, Primarina wins the duel, even if Gouging runs SpD ev's. If you still do not believe it, have a look to the replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2308826647-i3ka60ukkx4dxfa13pwdpv32eaqjx59pw

The only way for Gouging to have the upper hand would be in the case where it has the initiative, but that's not really a 1v1 then. If you thought of another way the duel could unfold, let me know, but I do not see any winning strategy for Gouging Fire there.

In Valian't case, you're right mentioning Shadow Sneak as a way to give more trouble to Dragapult, although it will necessitate considerable chip damage before deterring Dragapult from staying.

252 Atk Life Orb Iron Valiant Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 146-172 (46 - 54.2%)

However, SD does apply in a similar fashion to Gouging Fire. As we both agreed that the only non-2HKO from full was on Physical Defense Gouging Fire, it thus implies that either Iron Valiant or Primarina will block it. With Gouging Fire, you have to choose your fights. I think it is not really an objective way to assess the situation to state that Gouging Fire matters in the Fairy matchup. Unlike Dragapult, Gouging Fire is perfectly replaceable there. I cannot therefore claim Fairy is one of Gouging Fire's MU's.

For Poison MU, I disagree with your claims. G-Weezing is a fodder for Gouging Fire, immunity to EQ does not make it good at dealing with Gouging Fire. It is Toxapex that checks Gouging Fire with Haze + Toxic.

+1 0 Atk Gouging Fire Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 130-154 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

There is no need for predict. You see Gouging, you switch on Toxapex and you click Toxic. Once done, Gouging has a timer on its head, and if it switches out on Toxic turn, it just losts its setup without making any progress. As long as Toxapex is alive and healthy, Gouging Fire cannot achieve anything and it is not an easy task to get the edge against the Poison defensive core. What Poison is afraid of is Latios + Dragapult, not Gouging. To put it differently, can Gouging Fire significantly alter the MU in the sense that its presence alone forces you to use subpar sets to check it? The answer's no. It can indeed sweep Poison if it gets the chance to, but it's not a distinct trait of Gouging Fire specifically. SD Garchomp can achieve the same result, if not better, by the sole virtue of its STAB Earthquake and the lack of reliable recovery move on G-Weezing, making it easy to chip down, unlike Toxapex.

For Water, just like as for Poison, you ignore Toxapex. Spamming non-STAB Earthquake is nothing threatening. Between Swampert, Hamurott, Toxapex, Primarina, and many more, Water has no shortage of Pokémon to handle Gouging Fire. Handling Band Excadrill is troublesome for Balance Water, but Gouging Fire is far less of a threat.

For Flying, I would agree with you if Dragonite and Gliscor did not exist. But once again, Gouging Fire has only an impact if Latios/Dragapult broke through the defensive core. You cannot put it on Skarm, on Gliscor, on Dragonite, on Lando-I, leaving only Corviknight and Tornadus-T (if endgame, otherwise you won't stay on Knock off). To me, it's the definition of an underwhelming Pokémon. The Physical Defensive variant performs better in the MU, but it comes with costs.

Given all this, its clear that Gouging Fires impact varies depending on the matchup (obv), but it's far from being a non-factor in most cases.

Please do not change my words, I wrote "many matchups" not "most", my choice of word was not coincidental ^^

I'll conclude with these words: Gouging Fire biggest flaw lies in its inability to run all its sets at once. You have to choose your MU's which makes it rarely impactful, unless you somehow get only the right MU's for your set.

 

[cpt.kraken]

For Toxapex vs Gouging Fire, I have to disagree. Your situation is okay only if Toxapex is full life AND heavy duty boots.
In water, Toxapex has another mon to deal with named Roaring Moon meaning there are a lot of chances that you have been knocked off before (even if it most of the time leads to two switch out as pex doesn't want to be facing a steel mon and moon can't do more). Also it means Toxapex even with Regenerator might not be full life allowing Gouging Fire to threaten more the toxic mon. Because this is the real calc you should have shown :
+1 0 Atk Gouging Fire Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 130-154 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So as it has been said before bulky water teams are not liking Gouging Fire at all because Gouging Fire player can also anticipate and click again DD on switch out (+ don't forget it is not played alone and has been played a lot with Latias healing wish). And even if it doesn't win the game as the last cleaner, the hole in the team is already too huge for bulky water teams. That is also why we see much more fat teams including Alomomola and stuffs.

In poison, struggling a lot with ground, Pengairxan even plays air balloon on Toxapex (allowing also to deal better with Ceruledge). So yes, Gouging Fire pops the balloon doing around 20% with Flare Blitz and is poisoned then have to decide in between clicking earthquake or fire moves. Tho, imagine substitute leftovers instead of heavy duty boots morning sun and the mon is solo winning the game.

Yes on ladder you will not see a lot substitute Gouging Fire that is true but I think they are the best sets for wallbreaking and more threatening than classic sample sets. As I said, Gouging Fire can be whatever the builder wants so allowing it in the tier will tends to just dragon supremacy at the end of the gen and definitely an unbalanced gen (more unbalanced than monoLC lol).

Even in your exemple Showl, Fairy that has been created to nerf dragon a bit, is nowadays so "weak" that it can't prevent and win Dragon with same level player because, yes Gouging Fire doesn't win a 1v1 against Primarina but its role is not to win as I said before to be considered too strong.

Also something you could consider is everybody said (Idk why) than banning Zamazenta would lead to change Ground structures but even if ironpress was a threat, the main goal of my ground teams was to deal with Dragon teams and especially the defensive trio core. Banning Gouging Fire will allow ground to not run Hippowdown even in Excadrill-less teams to be able to run funnier or fatter teams team that are very weak to it. (or you have to run Quagsire but it also has some issues like easy double switch or especially against Gouging Fire in Fire 168 Atk Choice Band Gouging Fire Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 202-238 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO).

The only DnB argument I agree with is that this suspect is much more about nerfing Dragon than against Gouging Fire that has some counterplays but more or less good.