Suspect SV BH Suspect #5: Power Trip

[Chessking345]

POWER TRIP SUSPECT

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Akira 153​	Chessking345​	QT​	TTTech​
Suspect​	Suspect​	Suspect​	Suspect​

Power Trip strategies has been around and used for almost the entire generation. Despite several of the elements that were used alongside it such as Imprison being banned, it continues to remain as a potent threat and win condition for teams. In particular, Victory Dance is capable of ramping Power Trip's damage output rapidly while making it difficult for revenge-killers and Imposter users to KO back, allowing the user to trap the latter with Spirit Shackle, effectively self-Imposterproofing. This is further bolstered by Clear Amulet, which blocks Strength Sap's Attack drop, forcing the opponent to use Knock Off first, granting turns to the set up Pokemon to boost to unstoppable levels. The core of these set up win conditions is Power Trip's immense power. Reaching 140 BP with just one Simple Victory Dance, and then 260 BP with two, it is incredibly easy to snowball off from one wrong turn, where it is very possible to lose Pokemon despite having checks, as they cannot switch in safely after the Power Trip user has boosted. Even Fur Coat Dark-resistant Pokemon are not safe, with notably +4/+6/+6 Mega Tyranitar capable of OHKOing Fur Coat Zamazenta, allowing it to ludicrously 1v1 it most of the time. Of the abusers, Mega Tyranitar is the most prominent and strongest. Other Dark-types that have employed this strategy include Yveltal and Muk-Alola, both of which can pass off as defensive Pokemon to buy free turns, with the latter also resistant to would-be checks like Arceus-Fairy.

Power Trip strategies are not unstoppable, however. Notably, Prankster Haze users, albeit not the best in the current meta, render them almost completely useless. Outside of that, Fur Coat Arceus-Fairy is one of the more reliable answers, as it can comfortably 2HKO Mega Tyranitar and Yveltal with its Fairy STAB, but it loses to Muk-Alola. Topsy-Turvy or Haze on Dark-resistant or Fur Coat Pokemon like Mega Audino or Yveltal can shut all of them down as long they switch in immediately. Covert Cloak Imposter can attempt to PP stall, though it is dependent on timing, as the Imposter user must not switch out on a Power Trip. Triple Arrows Zamazenta can defeat Mega Tyranitar if it is able to get a critical hit.

These factors combined can make Power Trip strategies extremely polarizing, where it is capable of claiming KOs or outright winning in some situations, while becoming a large liability when faced with one of its harder counters being played properly. As such, Power Trip is been suspected.

Requirements:

Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in Gen 9 Balanced Hackmons before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played BH before the test, full stop.)
At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact KaenSoul, Giagantic, dhelmise or a member of staff.

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2900. The deadline for getting requirements will be <t:1746417540:f>

Voting:
Once the suspect period is over, everyone who has obtained reqs will be tagged. The post will then outline a process of blind voting, which will be clarified once the time arrives. For now, follow the above "Requirements" subheading to ensure that you have achieved requirements and linked your account

A supermajority (>=60%) of implement votes is required to ban Power Trip from Balanced Hackmons

TL;DR:
- The COIL value is 2900
- You must ladder on a newly-created alt of any name
- You must link your suspect alt with your smogon account using /linksmogon
- The suspect test will run conclude on <t:1746417540:f>

 

[Yourself]

i don't play this format much but this issue of self improofed gag/mbounce/simple auto win sweepers is an issue outside of just ptrip. this happened when no retreat was banned making the strategy worse and banning ptrip will remove the issue of simple tyranitar but it seems like you are only nerfing elements of the strategy rather them removing the issue entirely. if ptrip is banned this will just mean tyran isn't an issue, if vdance is banned the strategy will still be possible with other set up moves like th and if gag is banned people will just use mbounce or soundproof. i don't really see a winning situation here or the point in individual bans like these.

 

[The Guy Who Has Many Alts]

Can the council members share some insights and rationale regarding these decisions:

1. Stored Power is not included even though only a few dark types are realistically viable (Ting-Lu, Yveltal). Although Stored Power is significantly weaker because of its typing, it's still going to OHKO stuff after two Simple Take Hearts or Nasty Plot for example.

2. Power Trip is chosen over Simple when banning Simple would free omni-boosts (No Retreat and Clangorous Soul) since those moves are likely not broken without Simple.

Just to be clear, I do support this suspect but I want to know why the council did not choose to suspect Stored Power or Simple.

 

[Chessking345]

i don't play this format much but this issue of self improofed gag/mbounce/simple auto win sweepers is an issue outside of just ptrip. this happened when no retreat was banned making the strategy worse and banning ptrip will remove the issue of simple tyranitar but it seems like you are only nerfing elements of the strategy rather them removing the issue entirely. if ptrip is banned this will just mean tyran isn't an issue, if vdance is banned the strategy will still be possible with other set up moves like th and if gag is banned people will just use mbounce or soundproof. i don't really see a winning situation here or the point in individual bans like these.

I don't know how any of these individual sentences end up correlating to the subsequent sentences, it all feels like a gigantic slippery slope.
Lumping self improofed setup all together is extremely flawed when they differ completely in interactions and counterplay, and the strengths for Power Trip sets in particular were highlighted in the OP.
As such, banning Power Trip does not "only nerf elements of the strategy" if the entire issue identified are Power Trip sets and thus a ban would remove the entire problematic strategy. Also again, it is not just Tyranitar that has been marked as an abuser as mentioned in the OP, this can be seen from not choosing to suspect Tyranitar, but instead Power Trip.
Similarly, comparing Victory Dance to Take Heart is extremely disingenuous. They are not remotely the same moves, do not have remotely the same checks considering they are literally they literally boost the opposite spectrums.
Thus, "individual bans like these" are intended to remove the actually problematic strategies from the tier while minimizing collateral. If these strategies you mention end up being problematic then we can do tiering action on them down the road, but if they are not shown to be issues right now then Power Trip is the most appropriate option for a suspect as it directly addresses only the Power Trip sets.

1. Stored Power is not included even though only a few dark types are realistically viable (Ting-Lu, Yveltal). Although Stored Power is significantly weaker because of its typing, it's still going to OHKO stuff after two Simple Take Hearts or Nasty Plot for example.

Similar to what was mentioned above, comparing Victory Dance to Take Heart or Nasty Plot is a terrible comparison, and equally is comparing Power Trip to Stored Power in the current environment. Stored Power does not have a move that boosts SpA and Spe, has an immunity, and is on the opposite spectrum of Spirit Shackle and Strength Sap, which completely invalidates the set when it is extremely dependent on coverage (taking up a moveslot) while Shackle (mandatory for Improofing) does not provide it, and it cannot reliably selfproof anyways due to Strength Sap not lowering their damage output.

2. Power Trip is chosen over Simple when banning Simple would free omni-boosts (No Retreat and Clangorous Soul) since those moves are likely not broken without Simple.

Just as before, Power Trip is selected as the suspect element since it is the most direct cause of the "unhealthy" strategy, and is unviable outside of it. Meanwhile, Simple has use outside of Power Trip sets that we did not deem to unhealthy currently (e.g. SimplePlot sets). Existing bans are not considered when it comes to making decisions like this, they are only considered after a tiering change. As such, even if omniboosting moves were balanced without Simple (this is in itself unlikely as in combination with Power Trip they can still create Belly Drum esque interactions where one wrong turn leads to minimum one KO), they were not a factor.

 

[pannu]

if power trip gets banned, are clang and no retreat on the table for potential unbans?

 

[Nihilslave]

Thread 'COIL Explained'

May 28, 2014

Adapted from this thread.

tl;dr--COIL is a system that was developed for suspect requirement purposes. Your COIL score is a function of your GXE and the number of battles you have had on the ladder. The higher your GXE, the fewer number of battles you'll need to achieve reqs.

If you're participating in a suspect test, you may have noticed that you achieve reqs based not on your usual ladder rating, but on a mysterious score called COIL. This "mystery rating" is a system I personally designed for determining requirements for suspect tests.

In the past, determining...

• Antar
• Replies: 12
• Forum: Gen 7 Competitive Discussion

• 

From this post i see the following:

As we move forward, when a suspect test starts, the tier leaders should be announcing not just the cutoff value but their choice of B as well (though note that these could change midway through a test, if necessary), meaning you'll be able to use that last formula to figure out how quickly you'll be able to get reqs. If B is not explicitly published, you can look it up for yourself by checking out the Pokemon Showdown source code (no guarantees that that link will stay pointing to the right lines).

I think we'd better also know the choice of B?

 

[ANinjaDude]

I saw someone set the B value to 5 earlier, but I don't know if that was announced anywhere.

 

[big tony 2014]

How will this effect shuckle?
also yea free clang and no retreat rahhhhhh!!!!

 

[rightclicker]

(ignore the spelling my brain short circuited)

i'm definitely voting ban on this because i think vd + ptrip is a lame uninteractive set where if you have one of its counters (fc spa fairy, fc resist + topsy/encore, prankhaze, or hyperspecific circle throw users that dont even win in a last mon 1v1) you just win, and if you dont your best move is hope they misplay. there is merit for banning vd instead but imo vd is perfectly fine because the best abusers can't immediately explode you with 140bp no downside stab AND be easy to improof AND beat sap at the same time. vd itself has actual use cases outside of ptrip cheese that isn't broken. imo we shouldve nuked this instead of omniboosting (which btw free it if this is banned) because we also nuked cool asf omnibooster guys like snr ghostceus for no reason

what's next? i'm up for tarrows ban and also bulwark ban if we're still on that

 

[AetherLegend]

(I don't mean to sound offensive or ingorant and apolgize if it seems like it. Just geniunally asking a question.)

TLDR: Don't just ban offensive strats and leave stall untouched.

P-Trip strats are definietly powerful, but they're not unstoppable. Had a p-trip speed boost arceus dark. It was great, but it only worked sometimes. I had to take out or weaken most of the other team to guarentee the win, which isn't always possible with stall. Why ban offensive strats if you're not gonna ban some stall strats.

 

[ANinjaDude]

(I don't mean to sound offensive or ingorant and apolgize if it seems like it. Just geniunally asking a question.)

TLDR: Don't just ban offensive strats and leave stall untouched.

P-Trip strats are definietly powerful, but they're not unstoppable. Had a p-trip speed boost arceus dark. It was great, but it only worked sometimes. I had to take out or weaken most of the other team to guarentee the win, which isn't always possible with stall. Why ban offensive strats if you're not gonna ban some stall strats.

Ok so first of all, nobody claimed PTrip was unstoppable, the issue is that it's a feast or famine gameplan that either shreds right through the entire enemy team, or gets stopped stone cold by one of their very few checks. This sort of thing can severely strain the builder because you're forced to pack one of a very specific list of sets or just lose, and you can still have the check outplayed in battle, so you aren't even guaranteed a 100% safe MU for your troubles.

Second of all, this whataboutism about stall being untouched is just plain silly. Stall is probably the least viable of any teamstyle in BH, and until Ballfire's RMT, I firmly believed that stall was dead and buried, and even with that, it's still in a place where one or two meta shifts could kill it again. There's no need to kick stall while it's down, not when it's already lost almost all its tools(PHeal ban, Recovery nerf, Spec Thief dexit, Core dexit, etc), and even if stall needed looked at, that doesn't mean that PTrip shouldn't be banned, it would just give us another target for after this ban.

 

[splodge]

Just like rightclicker, I despite BH, so I didn't really want to get reqs at first and was only considering doing it for TC and would probably give up if I wasn't successful quickly. But in PHCord there was a poll asking if people would do the suspect (the only option was yes) and I thought I might as well do it if other PH-ers were doing it. I didn't realise until now that only 1 other person voted.

I'm not the most experienced BH player, but I do think Power Trip is broken and I will very likely be voting Ban, BUT, I think Victory Dance is the main unhealthy element and I would rather have that banned instead.

what's next? i'm up for tarrows ban and also bulwark ban if we're still on that

oh yeah and this too

 

[UnbecomingDuck]

I CAST BAN THIS GARBAGE



I

I couldnt get AI to make what I wanted it to make, so we get this instead

This will probably be a common theme and a repeated argument regarding ptrip/simple/vdance etc, but power trip sets existing place a huge strain on teambuilding. It also frequently produces unfun play patterns.

This ban will likely end up just treating symptoms rather than resolving the problem, but its definitely better to have it gone than to have it in. Simple or Vdance are likely better targets with my monkey brain hooting and hollering at Simple. Its sort of hard to actually pull the trigger on this sort of ban or suspect test though because they are generally not overbearing outside of being used in conjunction.