Substitute Empoleon

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cim

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I've posted a bunch of dumb sets on here before to my miserable failure every time. I hope this one is different. It sure plays better than any Emp I use.

The main problem I encounter with an Emp wall is that everyone switches to a physical Pokémon and you get nothing done except force a switch, which is good for Spikes teams but not for those who are... not... Spikers. Since I don't like the tediousness of setting Spikes up, I needed a better solution. I believe I have found one.

Walling/Defensive Empoleon
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Empoleon @ Leftovers / Wide Lens
EVs: 252 hp/100 sp atk/156 sp def
Modest Nature (+SAtk)
Substitute
Hydro Pump / Hydro Cannon
Ice Beam / Grass Knot
Hydro Cannon / Aqua Ring / Roar

Substitute does 3 key things for Empoleon. The first is to guard against the counters. All the Garchomps, Electivires (more on him in a minute), and such obviously can't OHKO if a Sub is up. Secondly, it's a good status blocker and helps Empoleon wall better.

Third is Empoleon's Trait. I once thought it was useless, but it can be abused better than Adaptabiliy on Z even (well it can't kill Bliss but you'll see). The idea here is that unless you are lucky enough to get a Garchomp, you can't always OHKO a counter. So you Sub 2 times more. With 1.5 * 1.5 (sometimes *2 to that) and the given EVs you:
  • OHKO Electivire (guaranteed)
  • OHKO Metagross with Hydro Cannon
  • OHKO Magnezone with Hydro Cannon (guaranteed)
  • OHKO Frail stuff
  • OHKO Skarmory (like he's a counter)
Hydro Pump is vital for power. If you want its 1 in 5 miss rate to be closer to 1 in 9, Wide Lens is a lifesaver.

Other moves are "usable filler". Ice Beam is for Dragons or for Grass types, Grass Knot covers Bulky Waters that are more than 2x weak, Roar is Roar, and Aqua Ring helps it wall when people realize what's going on and switch to a tank.

If you run Hydro Cannon, you get a good chance at OHKOing 252 Metagrosses as well as 99 Accuracy with Wide Lens but then the charge turn results in the team's 2nd physical sweeper killing you if you don't get those out.

Foresty's Petaya Offensive Set
Empoleon @ Petaya Berry
252 Sp. Atk, 184 Spd, 60 Sp. Def, 12 HP
(30 HP IV run 72 Sp. Def)
Modest Nature
-Agility
-Substitute
-Hydro Pump / Hydro Cannon
-Grass Knot / Flash Cannon

Sorry for being a douche Foresty, this is a better set.

For the people who want a kamikaze penguin, this is your best bet. Not as useful as the Defensive wall, but still fun and good for the late game. Agility on the switch (with a little Sp. Def you can survive if they don't... sometimes), then you outspeed Scarfcross (thank you, convenient gold standard Speed). Your Subs can't be outpredicted by other Subs now, and you can activate Petaya and Torrent and start murdering people. Hydro Pump with Petaya is now enough to kill Magnezones and Metagrosses and the like, so running Hydro Cannon is only good for having a chance at OHKOing Cresselia with full Sp. Def and HP or finishing Blisseys.

Grass Knot is the better filler since PetayaTorrentPump does top Garchomp, Sceptile, and other things you want to Ice Beam. Flash Cannon is actually a possible filler to break apart the occasional Cradily and to work as STAB if you run Hydro Cannon.

Opinion
The defensive set is the one I've tested most, and it is very good at what it does. Offensive was pretty mediocre, but with an Agility and Petaya it works in the late game well, pretty much killing all the Electric-Fighting-Ground threats one will face. Both sets are walled by Blissey, but so is most anything Special not named Really Lucky Alakazam or Porygon-Z or Jirachi or Celebi.
 
It's just now been an hour since your post, and honestly the forum moves fairly slow. Most people don't even look here and go straight to Wi-Fi forums for trading and battling.

Anyway, just for an idea, Hydro Cannon can replace Hydro Pump with a little help. That gives an extra 10% accuracy. Also if you fit in or pass an Agility and strike first then your "dead" turn is likely spent hiding behind a Sub. You'll eventually wind up kamikazing yourself but you'll take at least 1 'mon with you and possibly 2.
 
I actually like the idea of Substitute on Empoleon, but I like the idea of using Substitute/Swords Dance/Aqua Jet and subbing down to Torrent activation. After Swords Dance and Torrent, Aqua Jet is extremely powerful. With Empoleon's low speed, he doesn't mind having a nice priority move to punish things with.

On the set you posted though, you're wasting EVs thanks to having a Calm nature as opposed to a Modest one. With a Modest nature, you could use the EV spread 252 hp/88 sp atk/156 sp def and get the exact same stats you had, but also have 12 EVs left over to put wherever you want. I know that's not much, but it's something.
 
Thanks a lot. 12 will go in Satk I guess to ensure a beatdown of Magnezone. Which is actually really important. Thanks!

Oh and for your awesome RMT project I have some data for that since I didn't know the idea existed.

For post below: Aqua Ring is for when you start walling after you've knocked out a counter. Obviously with Wide Lens you don't use it (or do you..?), but... yeah.
 
More data for Defensive!
  • OHKO Lucario easily
  • Possible 3HKO on Special Attack Blisseys (ie not 252 HP)
  • 3HKOs Max HP/Sp.Def Cresselia, and Charge Beam doesn't even break the Sub (sometimes). Being forced to Rest gives Emp time to Aqua Ring and beat this pixie.
  • Possible 3HKO Gyarados if Torrent activates, but because of Taunt you'll just want to fire off Grass Knot.
  • 3HKOs a Lanturn (45%)
  • Dugtrio is dead.
Offensive calcs forthcoming
 
Good job, Chris, this idea doesn't fail hard!

No really, I like it. I gotta get myself an Empoleon soon. Hydro Pump is iffy for me. Is it 100% necessary over Surf, I mean, will Surf make the OHKOs 2HKOs?
 
Update! In Calc I thought of an awesome "Offensive" set for those who would rather wall with Blissey or Cresselia. Watch the top in the next few minutes if it's not there.

@Cornflake: Yes it is necessary. If you're shaky you can try the Offensive set.

Offensive set calcs:
  • 252 HP Metagross is easily OHKO'd and often outsped.
  • Everything OHKO'd before is (surprise!) OHKO'd
  • Ice Beam Bliss is 2HKO'd, forcing a Softboiled. Basically, don't try and take Blissey.
  • A max HP/Sdef Cress takes 60% and will Rest. Two Hydro Cannons can be pulled off, killing it.
  • 60% to a Sweeper Lanturn, allowing a 2HKO barring a luck miracle on power.
  • Does waaaay more than Ice Beam to non-Grass types weak to Ice beam and neutral or better to Water.
Basically ownage, but I won't run the Offensive st as much as the Wall.
 
Eh...in all honesty I think I'll stick to Sub/Agility/Hydro Pump/Grass Knot w/Petaya. I like my quick end game sweeps.
 
That would work only if you Agility'd on the switch in order to have time to Sub. Then you spend time Subbing to activate Torrent, but since you're faster the Subs are broken before your next turn. I would like having my speed boost happen behind a Sub when I try to late game sweep so that I've got a better shot at taking a hit. Sub is a good option for the Agility sets IMO.
 
How about replacing the wide lens with a petaya berry and using surf instead of hydo pump/cannon? That way your water attack is 100% accurate and the petaya berry makes up the power difference once you sub down.
 
Darthguac said:
How about replacing the wide lens with a petaya berry and using surf instead of hydo pump/cannon? That way your water attack is 100% accurate and the petaya berry makes up the power difference once you sub down.
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Use petaya berry with the hydro's for even more ownage. But I think that empoleon needs the speed boost.
 
In my opinion, I'm not saying that this set is bad. It actually seems like it can work pretty well. But you can just but substitute on a pokemon that forces a lot of switches. Like Umbreon.
 
Chris is me said:
That would work only if you Agility'd on the switch.
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Or Sub on the switch...

Then you spend time Subbing to activate Torrent, but since you're faster the Subs are broken before your next turn.
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Or you could attack if you think you knock them out of the ballpark than comeback later if you don't.

I would like having my speed boost happen behind a Sub when I try to late game sweep so that I've got a better shot at taking a hit.
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Too bad Empolean gets crap for speed with Salac berry, it can't even outspeed Jolly Garchomp, forget things like Starmie or something with actually high speed.

If you run Timid than you forfeit alot of power that Hydro Pump is just not going to makeup for.

With Agility and neutral speed however it beats nearly everything in the game and having a sub up is only a bonus and can afford to run Modest for absolute maximum power. I know from my own personal experience that Empolean needs absolute max S.atk with Petaya & Torrent to have a chance of OHKO'ing Sceptile with Hydro Pump.

Also without Petaya Berry Garchomp actually has a 50% chance of surviving a Hydro Pump. Also for the record my in game Empolean is bred with perfect S.atk so I've actually experienced these confrontations.

I don't run Ice Beam either for the plain reasons of moveslot syndrome and that after Petaya boost Hydro Pump does more damage than a 2x super effective Ice Beam. Only Grass Knot is needed for bulky waters.

If you haven't noticed your 'offensive' set actually has a major flaw in that it comes short of OHKO'ing alot of things in the game and isn't particularly fast either. Not a very good trait for a sweeper.
 
Forsety said:
Too bad Empolean gets crap for speed with Salac berry, it can't even outspeed Jolly Garchomp, forget things like Starmie or something with actually high speed.

I thought the boost was almost an Agility, and having double the speed EVs as the Agility set kinda helps a bit, you think? I could be wrong, but if base 80 with Salac (Blaziken!) outspeeds enough of the game to have been a potent EndRevver, then 64 Speed can probably top a fair number too.

If you run Timid than you forfeit alot of power that Hydro Pump is just not going to makeup for.

Hence why I'm not.

With Agility and neutral speed however it beats nearly everything in the game and having a sub up is only a bonus and can afford to run Modest for absolute maximum power. I know from my own personal experience that Empolean needs absolute max S.atk with Petaya & Torrent to have a chance of OHKO'ing Sceptile with Hydro Pump.

Because Sceptile isn't weak to Ice Beam or anything... nope. Not at all. Nuh-uh. a 4x difference in weakness (-2x weak + 2x weak) helps a bit. Besides, Sceptile is a primarily Special pokémon and Emp's Sdef is not bad at all.

Also without Petaya Berry Garchomp actually has a 50% chance of surviving a Hydro Pump. Also for the record my in game Empolean is bred with perfect S.atk so I've actually experienced these confrontations.

Bullshit. Did you even read the set? It's designed around activating torrent, an SE 2.25 X 120 power attack certainly does more than a base 90 4x attack that's available to use anyway and always OHKOs. 4.5 X 120 > 4 X 90. If you add a lot of Defensive EVs and there's a Sandstream to lower Accuracy and freak chance, great. Or you could just Ice Beam for the OHKO if you're that worried. Have you noticed your argument entirely falls apart when you account for "filler?"

 I don't run Ice Beam either for the plain reasons of moveslot syndrome and that after Petaya boost Hydro Pump does more damage than a 2x super effective Ice Beam. Only Grass Knot is needed for bulky waters.

Then run Pump over Cannon. You're pretending there's no 4th moveslot for some reason.

Also, Torrent boosts more than a Petaya. A 1.5x boost to Water attacks is better than a Petaya. Way to go.

And AS I SAID, Ice Beam is for those who 2x resist water and are 2x weak to Ice Beam (Grass). I'm not dumb, read the part of the analysis that says "hydro pump does more than 2x effective ice beam with torrent".

You really shouldn't tear a moveset apart when you have no idea what you are talking about and didn't read the original post.
If you haven't noticed your 'offensive' set actually has a major flaw in that it comes short of OHKO'ing alot of things in the game and isn't particularly fast either. Not a very good trait for a sweeper.

Ok, I'm not sure what you are on here. Doing 50% to a Max HP Blissey and 66 to a Cresselia is a good sign it OHKOs non Special Defenders. It can OHKO almost any effective counter. I calculated everything to do so. Even the Defensive set gets Electrivire, Magnezone, roughly any Fighting sweeper, etc... The set is designed to counter the Empoleon counters and get on with walling with Aqua Ring; the Offensive set was influenced by suggestions and is much better than you are pretending it is.

Name something terribly threatening to Emp's existence that can't be OHKO'd by a Hydro Cannon or filler and I'm all ears. So far, it's a UU fish, CM Blissey, and kind of Cresselia.
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I'm liking. Seems like a good tank. Though, the 3HKO's make me feel so, and so. But still go. I think I might try this on shoddy.
 
I'm not gonna check the other calculations but I did check the one for the defensive wall vs magnezone as I feel zone is a pretty solid counter for empoleon being electric type with magnet pull for trapping. Empoleon does not have a guaranteed OHKO on it. I'll go through some scenarios.

As a note, this is probably why our calculations differ, but I'm going to do the tests with the magnezone offered up in the analysis. This means it will have 172 HP EVs. The reason for this is that the common use for magnezone is as a steel trapper, meaning it does not require max speed to kill the steel types. Also, all but the choice variants in the analysis have 172 HP EVs so I can safely assume that a lot of people who use magnezone will have copied that. On top of that, if you assume no HP EVs, then it would also be assumed to be a choice specs/scarf magnezone, in which case the specs version will ohko you, wall or not.

Magnezone free switch-in

Assuming empoleon has killed something, and your opponent switches in the magnezone for a revenge kill. Also assuming your empoleon has not taken any previous damage as anything between 7-21% damage is a possible 1hko with thunderbolt before you can even do anything. Anything above 21% residual damage is a guaranteed ohko with Tbolt.

Turn 1: Magnezone uses thunderbolt dealing 79-93% damage
Empoleon uses Hydro Pump (+torrent) dealing 87-102% damage

That's a 20% chance for a ohko with hydro pump after torrent. Hydro cannon is a guaranteed ohko after torrent but leaves your 7-21% HP empoleon open for an easy revenge kill.

Magnezone switches in on a sub + you sub every turn while zone uses Tbolt

Your empoleon comes in on something that will run from it, allowing you to set up a sub on the switch as magnezone comes in.

Turn 1: Magnezone uses thunderbolt breaking sub
Empoleon uses substitute (on 50% HP)

Turn 2: Magnezone uses thunderbolt breaking sub
Empoleon uses substitute (on 25% HP), Torrent activates

Turn 3: Magnezone uses thunderbolt breaking sub
Empoleon uses Hydro pump dealing 87-102%

So same deal as above, it has a 20% chance of ohko. Hydro cannon is a guaranteed ohko but will leave you open for revenge kill.

Magnezone switches in on a sub + you sub every turn while zone uses sub as well

This is if zone realizes that you are just subbing every turn and uses sub itself.

Turn 1: Magnezone uses thunderbolt breaking sub
Empoleon uses substitute (on 50% HP)

Turn 2: Magnezone uses substitute (on 75% HP)
Empoleon uses substitute but it fails (on 50% HP)

Turn 3: Magnezone uses thunderbolt breaking sub
Empoleon uses Hydro Pump breaking sub

Magnezone can then proceed with a guaranteed kill with thunderbolt on empoleon.

Magnezone switches in on a hydro pump

This is assuming you dont sub on the switch for whatever reason and decide to hydro pump.

Turn 1: Magnezone switches in
Empoleon uses Hydro Pump dealing 58-68% damage

Turn 2: Magnezone uses thunderbolt dealing 79-93% damage
Empoleon uses Hydro Pump dealing 58-68% damage

This is the only scenario in which Empoleon can beat a magnezone but it assumes that you hydro pump and not sub on the switch and that hydro pump hits both times. Hydro cannon is not an option here as using it on the switch would do only 72-85% and then giving magnezone two free attacks on you as you recharge.

Offensive set

The offensive set does slightly better against magnezone than the defensive one purely because it is now faster and gives it the opportunity to kill magnezone before magnezone can kill it. Sadly, non-torrent hydro cannon is still not an ohko and torrent hydro pump has 80% chance to ohko which is alright. But on the downside, magnezone can now ohko you with thunderbolt.

The problem with this set is that you'd have to make a decision on how to kill magnezone.

you can:

1.sub on the switch and then using that sub, eat a thunderbolt while you hydro pump twice for the kill. The downside to this is that if either hydro pump misses then you're dead from 1 thunderbolt.

2.sub down for torrent. There's no chance of maggy outpredicting you with its own sub this time since you're faster. Once you get torrent, you can hydro cannon for the ohko or hydro pump for the 80% chance to ohko (technically 64% due to having only 80% accuracy). The downside to this is that you essentially cripple yourself down to 25% HP just for the torrent, leaving you open to any sweeper who is faster than you after salac berry to come in and finish you.
 
astrohawke said:
I'm not gonna check the other calculations but I did check the one for the defensive wall vs magnezone as I feel zone is a pretty solid counter for empoleon being electric type with magnet pull for trapping. Empoleon does not have a guaranteed OHKO on it. I'll go through some scenarios.

As a note, this is probably why our calculations differ, but I'm going to do the tests with the magnezone offered up in the analysis. This means it will have 172 HP EVs. The reason for this is that the common use for magnezone is as a steel trapper, meaning it does not require max speed to kill the steel types. Also, all but the choice variants in the analysis have 172 HP EVs so I can safely assume that a lot of people who use magnezone will have copied that. On top of that, if you assume no HP EVs, then it would also be assumed to be a choice specs/scarf magnezone, in which case the specs version will ohko you, wall or not.

Magnezone free switch-in

Assuming empoleon has killed something, and your opponent switches in the magnezone for a revenge kill. Also assuming your empoleon has not taken any previous damage as anything between 7-21% damage is a possible 1hko with thunderbolt before you can even do anything. Anything above 21% residual damage is a guaranteed ohko with Tbolt.

Turn 1: Magnezone uses thunderbolt dealing 79-93% damage
Empoleon uses Hydro Pump (+torrent) dealing 87-102% damage

That's a 20% chance for a ohko with hydro pump after torrent. Hydro cannon is a guaranteed ohko after torrent but leaves your 7-21% HP empoleon open for an easy revenge kill.

Magnezone switches in on a sub + you sub every turn while zone uses Tbolt

Your empoleon comes in on something that will run from it, allowing you to set up a sub on the switch as magnezone comes in.

Turn 1: Magnezone uses thunderbolt breaking sub
Empoleon uses substitute (on 50% HP)

Turn 2: Magnezone uses thunderbolt breaking sub
Empoleon uses substitute (on 25% HP), Torrent activates

Turn 3: Magnezone uses thunderbolt breaking sub
Empoleon uses Hydro pump dealing 87-102%

So same deal as above, it has a 20% chance of ohko. Hydro cannon is a guaranteed ohko but will leave you open for revenge kill.

With Metalkid's calculator, standard Magnezone EVs, and 100 Sp. Atk and Positive (it is Modest) for Emp with "Activate Ability Checked", it's something like 100.1-120 % damage. The Wall Emp especially also isn't a magnezone counter, it's just designed to counter it if it has to. I'm getting a screenshot of Metalkid's calc.

Magnezone switches in on a sub + you sub every turn while zone uses sub as well

This is if zone realizes that you are just subbing every turn and uses sub itself.

Turn 1: Magnezone uses thunderbolt breaking sub
Empoleon uses substitute (on 50% HP)

Turn 2: Magnezone uses substitute (on 75% HP)
Empoleon uses substitute but it fails (on 50% HP)

Turn 3: Magnezone uses thunderbolt breaking sub
Empoleon uses Hydro Pump breaking sub

Magnezone can then proceed with a guaranteed kill with thunderbolt on empoleon.

Very true. I don't encounter many Magnezones with Sub though. I must be weird like that. If it Subs I guess you could run Roar.

Magnezone switches in on a hydro pump

This is assuming you dont sub on the switch for whatever reason and decide to hydro pump.

Turn 1: Magnezone switches in
Empoleon uses Hydro Pump dealing 58-68% damage

Turn 2: Magnezone uses thunderbolt dealing 79-93% damage
Empoleon uses Hydro Pump dealing 58-68% damage

This is the only scenario in which Empoleon can beat a magnezone but it assumes that you hydro pump and not sub on the switch and that hydro pump hits both times. Hydro cannon is not an option here as using it on the switch would do only 72-85% and then giving magnezone two free attacks on you as you recharge.

The problem with Pumping right away is that it's not the best option for every switch in, not to mention Torrent. I'm pretty sure my calcs were right...

 Offensive set

The offensive set does slightly better against magnezone than the defensive one purely because it is now faster and gives it the opportunity to kill magnezone before magnezone can kill it. Sadly, non-torrent hydro cannon is still not an ohko and torrent hydro pump has 80% chance to ohko which is alright. But on the downside, magnezone can now ohko you with thunderbolt.

The problem with this set is that you'd have to make a decision on how to kill magnezone.

you can:

1.sub on the switch and then using that sub, eat a thunderbolt while you hydro pump twice for the kill. The downside to this is that if either hydro pump misses then you're dead from 1 thunderbolt.

2.sub down for torrent. There's no chance of maggy outpredicting you with its own sub this time since you're faster. Once you get torrent, you can hydro cannon for the ohko or hydro pump for the 80% chance to ohko (technically 64% due to having only 80% accuracy). The downside to this is that you essentially cripple yourself down to 25% HP just for the torrent, leaving you open to any sweeper who is faster than you after salac berry to come in and finish you.

If my (incorrect?) calcs from before are right, then it's DEFINITLEY a OHKO with Torrent. Let me redo Magnezone Calcs below.
Click to expand...

Alright, before I run the calcs, the Defensive EVs were done in order to ensure a Vire OHKO and they happened to be 99% for Magnezone. I added 12 EVs I wasted to Satk and then recalculated a 100% OHKO rate. So here are the same calcs I did, but redone just to ensure accuracy. (crosses fingers)

An Empoleon with Torrent activated, holding Leftovers, and a Positive nature with 100 Sp.Atk EVs attacking (with Hydro Pump) a 172 HP Magnet Pull Magnezone holding Leftovers (31 IVs all around) takes... 86.73% - 102.16%. Goddamit, where did I mess up? I must have mixed up him and vire somewhere.

248 EVs (Hydro Pump) does 98.15% - 115.43% to it, with Hydro Cannon OHKOing. Dammit. I'm sorry, all the guys I yelled at.

Hydro Cannon with 100 Special Attack EVs does 108.33% - 127.47% to a Standard 'Zone, but leaves you vulnerable... much like Porygon-Z.

Well that's disappointing. But it hasn't all gone to shit, and being able to pick off a Magnezone is a quality many Steels not named Heatran or Steelix (maybe) would like. Time for more calcs:
  • Electivire using a standard "kill everything" set takes 101.37% - 119.24% damage from Torrent'd Pump on the Defensive.
  • 252 HP Metagross takes 77.20% - 90.93% from a Defensive Pump and 96.43% - 113.46% from Hydro Cannon.
  • Since someone said that Torrent Pump doesn't OHKO a Garchomp (when Ice Beam always does), 16 HP Garchomp takes 81.72% - 96.12% from it. It doesn't make sense to me why when Ice Beam is > 115 % and they're both about 4x... unless I remember that Dragon resists Water! I fail hard.
  • Everything else that switches in like Lucario and stuff are frail.
That being said, Sorry everybody I yelled at. Just remember both sets are still very viable.
 
Bullshit. Did you even read the set?
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Yes and I haven't said anything about the defensive one because it works it leaves Empoleon opportunities to force switches or run and Hydro Cannon does make up for the power. My issue is with the offensive version.

I don't say random things out of the blue since it doesn't do me any favours and I noticed you checked the Garchomp calcs so I'll drop that.

the Offensive set was influenced by suggestions and is much better than you are pretending it is.
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I have no need to pretend when I've run the set myself before. I do know it needs that extra speed and power from experience.

Then run Pump over Cannon. You're pretending there's no 4th moveslot for some reason.
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Uh..if you'd pay attention I did mention Agility. Agility + Sub leaves 2 slots left, one is going to be for the STAB and power therefore only leaving one filler. Grass Knot gives the highest power/coverage in general.

Besides, Sceptile is a primarily Special pokémon and Emp's Sdef is not bad at all.
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Actually the D/P Sceptile benefits equally from going physical with the new improved Leaf Blade changing to physical and can run EQ now and again if its Swords Dance variation.

Also Sceptile actually survives Ice Beam with no EV's in HP or s.def and outspeeds Salac penguin to boot, Petaya'd Hydro Pump can actually OHKO the thing. (Of course so can Hydro Cannon without but thats not exactly effective) Better to kill the thing then leave it a chance of retalliating.

I could be wrong, but if base 80 with Salac (Blaziken!) outspeeds enough of the game to have been a potent EndRevver, then 64 Speed can probably top a fair number too.
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Speed levels have come a long way. Empoleon's max speed is 219 and with Salac Berry goes to 328.5 which is rounded down to 328. Thats only equal to a +speed base 100 and very easily beaten.

Also Blaziken with its 80 base takes it to 388 which beat non +spd 130's and did not take Choice Scarf into account. For the record Agility Empoleon even beats Scarfcross.

Name something terribly threatening to Emp's existence that can't be OHKO'd by a Hydro Cannon or filler and I'm all ears. So far, it's a UU fish, CM Blissey, and kind of Cresselia.
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Though I don't see the point since the Penguin would have to die or run anyway...Ludicolo is a instant stop sign. Toxicroak as well, immune to water, resists Grass Knot. The only good attack against it is Ice Beam which will not OHKO, far from it. In fact the only thing you can do is get mauled or run Flash Cannon for STAB instead of Ice Beam. Actually on your version of the offensive Empoleon Flash Cannon is actually a decent filler.

Also to a certain extent Lanturn since it falls into the 60 BP Grass Knot category. (Grass Knot bounces off Lanturn surprisingly well) Resists water and resists ice and steel for that matter therefore all you can do is do as much damage before dying as possible leaving a Petaya'd water attack as your best choice.

It doesn't make sense to me why when Ice Beam is > 115 % and they're both about 4x
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I believe its to do with Super Effective boosting the final damage while Torrent boosts the attack power meaning it still has to contend with defenses.
 
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