Suspect SS AAA Suspect Test #6: Dog of Steel (Zamazenta-Crowned)

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Isaiah

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:ss/Zamazenta-Crowned:
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:ss/Zamazenta-Crowned:
NOTE:
> This is a suspect test to unban Zamazenta-Crowned.
> Because it is a battle-only form, Zamazenta-Crowned cannot have any abilities other than Dauntless Shield, and cannot have any items other than Rusted Shield.
​
Why:

Up front, Zamazenta-Crowned is a behemoth of stats. Notably, its 720 BST is comprised of 92/145/145 bulk, a strong 130 base attack, and a reliable 128 base speed tier. Its Rusted Shield item also makes it effectively immune to item-swapping and Knock Off, and retaining Dauntless Shield as an ability only boosts its physical bulk even further. With all of these factors in mind, its place on the banlist in the past was hardly questionable. However, with the understanding we now have of the way the transformation actually works ingame (and by extension, in the Almost Any Ability meta), the council concluded that Zamazenta-Crowned is worth giving exposure and a fair chance.

In practice, Zamazenta-Crowned is notoriously bulky, but it isn't without its faults. First, it has no means of reliable recovery, which means that without things like Rest, Wish, or Grassy Terrain support, all damage it takes can't be healed off. In a meta like AAA where Pokemon have new access to damage amplification through abilities like Adaptability and Tinted Lens, Zamazenta-Crowned has a much more difficult time shrugging off attacks than it would in a standard metagame. Additionally, while 130 is certainly high for an attack stat, AAA is a format where any Pokemon can get defensive abilities such as Intimidate/Dauntless Shield or even Regenerator to mitigate any damage taken. For something like Zamazenta-Crowned, which can only boost its attack one stage at a time using Howl, common defensive picks like Corviknight and Swampert may give it trouble over the course of a game--especially if they're equipped with a Rocky Helmet.

That being said, Zamazenta-Crowned does offer a notable niche. Primarily, its 128 base speed puts it at a total of 390 with a positive nature, meaning it outspeeds fast threats like Weavile unlike Cobalion and Talonflame and threatens an OHKO in return. Because of the effective bulk from Dauntless Shield, Zamazenta-Crowned can actually switch into virtually any unboosted attack from either of these and force them out due to the difference in speed tier. This is generally the case for many physical attackers, although as mentioned before Zamazenta-Crowned has to be extremely wary of taking too much unrecoverable damage.

In essence, Zamazenta-Crowned was initially banned for its bark but never had a chance to show its bite. The council aims to examine if there's still a need for what is effectively a "standard" Zamazenta-Crowned to remain banned. Considering the amount of amplification to offensive and defensive capabilities inherent to Almost Any Ability, there's more than enough reason to believe a suspect test is worthwhile at this time.



How (Suspect Details):
During a Suspect test, each player must climb the ladder until they've acquired the GXE necessary to participate in the voting. Primarily, everyone that participates needs to make an alt account following these guidelines:

  • Every game must be played on the official Pokemon Showdown! site and on a new account (creation date no earlier than today, August 22nd) with "ZAAAMA [Nick]"--for example, I could create one called "ZAAAMA Zoomer" to ladder with.
  • To qualify for voting, your alt must play a minimum of 25 games, and you must have a minimum GXE of 75.
  • Zamazenta-Crowned will be allowed on the ladder during the suspect.
  • The suspect test will go for two weeks and end on Sunday, September 5th (11:59 pm CDT).
  • When posting proof of meeting reqs, feel free to use this thread as a means to disseminate topical opinions regarding whether or not Zamazenta-Crowned should be unbanned. (Optional)
  • It is mandatory to provide proof of ownership of the alt account as well. (Post a picture of your reqs with your smogon name featured)
With that all of that being said, it's suspect time! As usual, the actual voting will take place in the Blind Voting Forum, so posting anything other than proof of reqs and discussion isn't necessary.


Tagging Kris to implement
 
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Most likely voting to unban unless something drastically changes in the next two weeks. ZamaC's bulk makes it a really nice cleaner vs offensive stuff, but it isn't really reliable for breaking through teams. I think this balances out the bulk/speed that zamac has by a lot.

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re-confirming since apparently i had to redo reqs, cause Zama was not yet legal on the ladder when i laddered my first account
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I'd like to take this as an opportunity to ask OM leadership to consider changing the way they approach scenarios such as this one, because in this case I don't see why my initial reqs had to be revoked. Don't take this as an attempt to start drama or anything, I'm not holding any grudges or hard feelings here cause I'm pretty sure this is just you guys following policy. I do think however, that in some cases exceptions can ( and should) be made.

First of all, I can not be faulted for laddering up my account before Zamazenta was implemented on the ladder, seeing as the thread was already up at the time i made my account and started laddering.

Second, I am not sure what the exact reasoning was for revoking my reqs, but I think it's because the suspect was not yet implemented on the ladder - meaning that Zama was not yet legal at the time.

And I understand, you can't evaluate a mon's impact on the meta when you don't ever see it in action. However I am not someone who would ladder up for reqs and never touch the aaa ladder again. I don't ladder every day, but I do it often enough that my account never singificantly decays (something that can be seen by checking the aaa ladder). Additionally, I frequently participate in discussion in the AAA channel of the OM discord. I am stating these facts to really illustrate the point that I would have more than likely seen the impact that Zama has on the meta regardless of whether it was legal when I got reqs or not.

And to be honest, laddering up again was not very hard nor time consuming, but it's still annoying to have to do it again, considering that I don't really think I did anything wrong here.
 
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In my (mildly unsure) opinion, Zamazenta is fine because it's not broken due to the higher power level of the tier compared to something like OU + adds another Weavile/Genesect check while outspeeding both of them, which is an important role for offense to fill (btw don't think that because Zama might get unbanned that those two are suddenly balanced, they're still dumb).

-Choice Band Adaptablity Krookodile w/ Stealth Rock
-Meteor Beam + Magic Guard Steel Beam Metagross
-Physical Tapu Koko
-Drizzle + Tinted Lens Primarina
-Refrigerate Thrash Mamoswine
-Galvanize Excadrill
-AV Ferrothorn w/ Explosion
-Dugtrio
-Hurricane Gyarados
-An entire team of Quick Claw + Serene Grace mons
-Magic Bounce Zarude
-Metronome Blastoise
-Choice Scarf Magic Bounce Mamoswine
-NP Mew (twice!)
-Bullet Seed Tapu Bulu
-Icicle Spear Weavile
-Volt Absorb Goodra
-Red Card Crobat
-Regen AV Cursola
 
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Confirming as ZAAAMA LET IT GOOO
Watch Frozen. (Love u Palapapop, zarmag is broken)

For zam-c, idk, I’ve met 2 zam-C, the first one was a screen setter (bad set), and I didn’t see the second one, my opp forfeited before.
I think it’s p bad offensively but annoying defensively, insane speed tier + can take a hit from almost every offensive mons, and unbreakable by defensive mons with rest. It’s only theory and I’ll wait to see more of it during the next week, but my opinion rn is to keep it banned but I’m not fixed. Laddering is always a pain btw :(

Waiting for Siamato suspect alt
 
Confirming as ZAAAMA Test shoutout to RockIsWack for that Drought Team that just wiped the floor with mine three times

Zama Reqs.JPG

Will edit later with thoughts once I have actually used Zama, but so far I have not seen anything to suggest it needs to remain banned.

Actually ended up making a second post with my thoughts below, but TL;DR is I will likely vote unban but hate doing it.
 
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I haven't faced a Zamazenta-Crowned in my run - that's one limitation LOL

That said, I have my initial thought for Zamazenta-Crowned: weird. Zamazenta-Crowned apparently is in an awkward situation wherein that Pokemon tries too hard to deter as many Pokemon as possible given its monstrously high Attack stat; however, to make this specific Zamazenta variant to work efficiently needs some form of predictable support because it's one of the most exploitable Pokemon due to the lack of a recovery move outside Rest, and the lack of general utility / momentum. While Zamazenta-Crowned can entirely alter the AAA landscape which is somehow overrun by Weavile and Genesect, more research has yet to be done with this Pokemon which I can warrant an unban for that matter -- unless there's a whole lot of convincing that Zamazenta-Crowned can be proved otherwise.
 
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Still not sure what I'm voting, but my thoughts about Zamazenta-Crowned are for now quite contradictory :

At first glance, the combinaison of an insane speed tier, only outspeeded by Barraskewda, choice scarf users and the uncommon Regieleki, behemoth bulk and great attack stat coupled with an expensive movepool including howl, wild charge, metal sound, rest to break through many defensive walls and even crunch to have better odds against Mew and constantly OHKO blacephalon might seem busted ;
However, many already popular slow pivots of the current AAA metagame, such as physically defensive Swampert and Corviknight, are able to peacefully switch into Zamazenta-Crowned and pivot on it in order to bring one of the many special threats able to force out Zama-C ; these include choice scarf Blacephalon, choice Scarf heatran, bulky Volcarona and more. Swampert isn't the only viable Zama-C wall though, things like delta stream Skarm and Hippowdon being able to constantly switch into it and force it out.
Lastly, it is interesting to notice that unbanning zamazenta would mean one more weavile / non-flamethro genesect counter in the metagame, wich would in my opinion be a good thing.

I'm still new to Almost Any Ability and my english is not the best, but I hope exposing my initial thoughts on Zama-C was helpful ! Thanks for reading :D
 
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It's still early, but I wanted to talk about the Zamazenta-C suspect test and how I am struggling with how to vote in it. I can see two different tiering philosophies on how to vote, and have not decided on which one I support.

First, there is the philosophy that anything that is not broken or uncompetitive should be allowed in the tier. By that logic, I find it pretty convincing (so far at least) that Zama is not broken and should be unbanned.

Zama has amazing Base Stats, two good STAB moves and...pretty much nothing else. It's best coverage moves are Wild Charge and Crunch with only Howl to boost attack. 130 Base Attack sounds really nice, but without a boosting ability or item, is actually not very high by AAA standards; Close Combat is roughly the same power as Talonflame's Brave Bird, and Behemoth Bash is weaker. This leaves it walled or easily checked by some of the most common mons in the tier:
252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Swampert: 203-239 (50.2 - 59.1%)
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Swampert: 213-252 (52.7 - 62.3%)
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Swampert: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) (typing changed to be neutral)

-1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 92-110 (23 - 27.5%)
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. +1 252 HP / 252 Def Mew: 87-103 (21.5 - 25.4%)
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 153-180 (37.8 - 44.5%)
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Tapu Fini: 136-160 (39.5 - 46.5%)
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 89-105 (23.2 - 27.4%)
Zama is also, at least in my experience, really hard to build with. It's speed, bulk, and still-decent power make it a fantastic offensive check to many of the more dangerous attackers in the tier, especially Weavile and non-Flamethrower Genesect. But, due to its lack of wallbreaking power and any sustainability (outside of Rest), it feels like it needs team support that is more commonly found on Balanced and Bulky builds, which tend to not struggle with those mons to begin with. And without team support, it will be limited to a few switchins per game before chip and hazards bring it down. I do think it can find a niche, but only on a limited number of teams, and by no means makes those teams broken.

It really cannot be overstated how much having a locked item and ability slot is, especially in AAA. Combined with a barren movepool and awkward team fit, I find it fairly convincing that Zama is not broken or uncompetitive.

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However, even though I do not think Zama is broken, I do believe there is a legitimate question if it belongs in the tier because it's antithetical to the premise of Almost Any Ability. I really dislike having a mon, exactly one mon, that is unable to choose its own ability because of how game mechanics work.

To be clear, I understand exactly why Zama is ability locked, and agree that this is the correct implementation of Zama-C given our understanding of game mechanics. And this is not any kind of slippery-slope of allowing other Ubers with restricted abilities since to my knowledge, the only other Uber that would be ability locked in the same way is Zacian-C, which would be hilariously broken in AAA ~~maybe an April 1st suspect test~~.

But, that means in the Almost Any Ability metagame, we have exactly one mon that does NOT have almost any ability, and tbh I kinda hate that. So much of AAA gameplay revolves around creative, and in many cases, unknown abilities, and a lot of the fun is figuring out the opponent's sets and adjusting accordingly. Magic Bounce, Dauntless Shield, No Guard, and Mold Breaker Mew all play very different roles, and on team preview it's normally not obvious which set they are using. Even mons like Talonflame, which have one primary set, can be tailored to use different abilities to fit your team, and surprise opponents. Zama-C can do none of that, and sure there is some (limited) creativity in its moves, but in terms of how customizable the rest of the meta it is sticks out like a sore thumb.

At the end of the day, I think Zama-C is at a power level similar to the rest of the tier, and makes sense to unban. However, I am struggling with allowing in a mon that is at odds with the premise of the tier, and don't think it adds to the creativity or fun of the tier. If I had to vote today, I would likely vote unban, but am very open to discussion and arguments about what type of mon belongs in AAA, and if Zama-C is that type of mon. I hope that makes sense, and would love to hear other thoughts, both if you think Zama is broken, but especially if you have thoughts on how Zama fits into the meta as an ability-locked mon.
 
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From what I've seen Zama's kinda mid, nice defensive capabilities but it's fairly limited in what it can do and has its lack of power abused a lot by things it can't OHKO putting on solid pressure. Not sure what I'll vote 100% but leaning towards freeing it.
 
I encourage anyone that doesn't have an opinion to try and actually use the mon and build with it, or just ask around for teams. You can't make an informed decision with 0 experience. As it stands voting rn would make no sense.

I think Think wanted to make a few roomtours with zama allowed, if the times are communicated beforehand it could help some people get some experience with the mon.
 
motherlove said:
I encourage anyone that doesn't have an opinion to try and actually use the mon and build with it, or just ask around for teams. You can't make an informed decision with 0 experience. As it stands voting rn would make no sense.

I think Think wanted to make a few roomtours with zama allowed, if the times are communicated beforehand it could help some people get some experience with the mon.
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This, 100%. I actually changed my mind post suspect and am probably voting ban, but I'd rather you vote no ban after doing your research instead of voting ban without knowing why you're voting. The point of a suspect is for the community to make an informed decision on whether or not something is unhealthy - I daresay you'd be doing the tier a disservice if you were to vote right now without knowing why you're voting. Do your research, talk to your fellow AAA players, play some games. No offense intended, but if you don't know why you're voting what you are, I'd recommend abstaining.
 
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